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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:13 am

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my thoughts on LaPorta are not based on "getting value" from the CC trade. That's history in my mind. However, I do know baseball and can recognize talent when it is present. Matt LaPorta brings a potential to be a middle of the order hitter with rare power. If the "sources" you talk to don't see that then the Indians are FUBARed. Yes, I agree he may go the way of Andy Marte. Hell, that is probably likely, but it would be ashame to not give him the chance because of Shelley Duncan or Carlos Pena. The guy is 26 years old and hits the ball 280 ft with the flick of a wrist. My point is that if you're not intending to sign someone that is not a hope and a prayer then just give LaPorta a chance. The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:18 am

Chip Davis wrote:The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


A lot of pennant races are decided by just a game or two. Look at both wild card races last year. Not saying that Pena would guarantee us a pennant, or that we can even afford him, but I would think our chances of making the playoffs would be much better with Pena at first over Laporta.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:28 am

ClevelandBlues wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


A lot of pennant races are decided by just a game or two. Look at both wild card races last year. Not saying that Pena would guarantee us a pennant, or that we can even afford him, but I would think our chances of making the playoffs would be much better with Pena at first over Laporta.


I have said that I'd prefer a RH middle of the order guy but Pena right now appears to be the best option. His defense alone over LaPorta/Santana/Duncan should be able to save a few games considering young guys like Chiz and Kip in the line up (if I recall correctly most of Chiz's errors are on throws.) A good defensive 1B reduces the # of errors on throws and/or reduces the impact (i.e. 1 base error vs. 2 base error). IMO, if the Indians can afford it they need to upgrade 1B to be a better team.

I'm not ready to write off LaPorta but he has done nothing to be given the 1B job at this point. Neither has Chiz or Kip for that point also. These guys need to win their positions in ST and I have more confidence based on last years performance in Kip and Chiz (in that order) than LaPorta.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:02 pm

I pretty much agree with all you said, but barring a catastrophic spring by Kipnis, second base should be his job to lose. He still has some work to do defensively, but his bat seems to be major league ready. If he regresses, he could always be sent back to Columbus, and Donald, Phelps or possibly Lopez would be ready to step in.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:22 pm

jellis wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Looks like Cabrera filed at $5.2M and the Tribe countered with $3.75M. Sounds like we could have him for less than Choo afterall...

4.75 is my cal, Indians seem to be content to over pay and establish some good will


Seems like a reasonable call.

Wonder too if the Tribe could try and extend him (say 3 years) and give in to that $5.2M number (or near it) to get some extra years....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:23 pm

Chip Davis wrote:The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


And the Indians will not win the pennant because of Matt freakin LaPorta....so what's your point?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:53 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.


My numbers may be off (though I feel pretty confident), but I have the Tribe payroll right at $64M (give or take a little). That's assuming $5M to Cabrera (probably a bit high) and $1.75M to Raffy (probably a tad low)...so feel that even after those two are signed the payroll won't change much from what I've got it at. Not sure if anyone else has a figure?

From what I've gathered $65M was the projected payroll....$70M was the top end/stretching it (though doable), which probably explains the recent reports of the Tribe asking owernship for permission to go over budget (a Carlos Pena signing would put us over $70M, probably around $74M).

I think we will see the payroll around $70M...probably a tad over. Could end badly (like in 2009), but this team seems more capable of contending and putting some more fans in the seats to me...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:48 am

Some random thoughts...

-The Yu Darvish signing was somewhat of anti-climatic. The numbers being bandied (in addition to the posting fee paid to the Nippon Ham Fighters) had him around $ 20 MM/year for six years.. At $ 10 MM/yr for six years, the Rangers may have a bargain.

-From an opening day payroll figure of $ 49.1 MM in 2011 to $ 66.4 MM in 2012 or a $ 17.3 MM rise (35 % increase) should represent the top five for ML opening day payroll increases by percentage.

-32 days until pitchers and catchers report to spring training in Goodyear Arizona..

-The Bruce Fields 'excitement' report: "Bruce came back really excited with what he saw. He feels that Matt has a much better feel for his swing. He's made some adjustments with his swing and is building upon a strong foundation coming into camp" Was that an attempt by the Indians front office to quell some of the "Dump LaPorta in the Cuyahoga River" protestations?

-Chris Antonetti's comment about the "..50 guesses trade.." has officially been ended: "It didnt happen," Antonetti said during a sit-down with Cleveland reporters on Friday afternoon, "like about 968 other [trade suggestions]. At that point, we thought we were relatively close. But that changed." Now, can it be forgotten?.. Answer: not until the details of the trade are ferreted out or another "teaser" line is uttered...

-More CA-speak: CA intoned (a few days ago) that a new 1B was not the only path to improve the offense: "Our focus hasn't been exclusively on one position," Antonetti said. "I would say it's been very wide ranging. We've considered a variety of different alternatives to improve. Anywhere from trades for younger players, trades for more established guys, free-agent signings. We've really considered a wide variety of alternatives." George Orwell he's not, but he's gaining on it...

-No Manny: Even on a MiLB deal? until his suspension is over?.. please?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:15 am

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.


My numbers may be off (though I feel pretty confident), but I have the Tribe payroll right at $64M (give or take a little). That's assuming $5M to Cabrera (probably a bit high) and $1.75M to Raffy (probably a tad low)...so feel that even after those two are signed the payroll won't change much from what I've got it at. Not sure if anyone else has a figure?

From what I've gathered $65M was the projected payroll....$70M was the top end/stretching it (though doable), which probably explains the recent reports of the Tribe asking owernship for permission to go over budget (a Carlos Pena signing would put us over $70M, probably around $74M).

I think we will see the payroll around $70M...probably a tad over. Could end badly (like in 2009), but this team seems more capable of contending and putting some more fans in the seats to me...

We are quite close but probably should be as much as is posted already. Out of curiosity, how much did you allocate in the budget for Grady. Up front is $5.5M and potential for $9.5M. Ordinarily, you would set some contingency budget for the upside but he wouldn't get anything based on the last 2 years.

BTW, I did not respond to you on our Hannahan discussion because I didn't have more to say but because I was upset about the way that I worded my initial response and then chided your reading skill. I was wrong. This is a sports blog and a compound hypothetical does not belong, no matter how accurate or inaccurate it may be. I apologize for my remark and will chasten myself appropriately. :pleasantry: :friends:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:45 pm

The Indians have agreed to sign right-handed reliever Jeremy Accardo to a minor league deal.. ho hum.. another depth arm in the minors...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:25 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.


My numbers may be off (though I feel pretty confident), but I have the Tribe payroll right at $64M (give or take a little). That's assuming $5M to Cabrera (probably a bit high) and $1.75M to Raffy (probably a tad low)...so feel that even after those two are signed the payroll won't change much from what I've got it at. Not sure if anyone else has a figure?

From what I've gathered $65M was the projected payroll....$70M was the top end/stretching it (though doable), which probably explains the recent reports of the Tribe asking owernship for permission to go over budget (a Carlos Pena signing would put us over $70M, probably around $74M).

I think we will see the payroll around $70M...probably a tad over. Could end badly (like in 2009), but this team seems more capable of contending and putting some more fans in the seats to me...

We are quite close but probably should be as much as is posted already. Out of curiosity, how much did you allocate in the budget for Grady. Up front is $5.5M and potential for $9.5M. Ordinarily, you would set some contingency budget for the upside but he wouldn't get anything based on the last 2 years.


I only put in the guaranteed $5.5M for Grady. While I do think he will bounce back....I think the odds of him getting the full $9.5M are pretty slim (from the way you talk of Grady, I think you'd agree?). The way I look at his incentives....if he does reach them, the team is probably going to be in the race up til the end, which should help pay for those incentives. I agree on your contingency thing, but I think in this case the Tribe won't be as concerned with it, though I may be mistaken there....

Here is another reason I didn't include Grady's incnetives in my count...

If the reports were true, the Tribe had basically the same offer on the table for Carlos Beltran as what the Cards gave him ($13M for 2 years)....that would have put the Tribe 2012 payroll at $77M by my count. I know there was talk that a second move to clear some payroll was in the works....but unless that move was Carmona (which it could have been, though I have my doubts there), they payroll would have still been around $72-$74M before any Grady incentives kicked in. And the way I see it, adding a guy like Carlos Pena or Carlos Lee (for $8-10M) would put the payroll right around that mark as well before any Grady incentives.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:32 pm

Tribe has also signed OF Fred Lewis to a minor league deal. Not the worst 4th outfielder in the world but seems a bit overkill. Still, no harm in the minor league deals. I like him more than Pie.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:05 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Tribe has also signed OF Fred Lewis to a minor league deal. Not the worst 4th outfielder in the world but seems a bit overkill. Still, no harm in the minor league deals. I like him more than Pie.


Pie also has an opt out in his deal should he not make the opening day roster if I remember correctly. Lewis actually makes sense if thats the case with Pie.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:06 pm

Chip Davis wrote:I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my thoughts on LaPorta are not based on "getting value" from the CC trade. That's history in my mind. However, I do know baseball and can recognize talent when it is present. Matt LaPorta brings a potential to be a middle of the order hitter with rare power. If the "sources" you talk to don't see that then the Indians are FUBARed. Yes, I agree he may go the way of Andy Marte. Hell, that is probably likely, but it would be ashame to not give him the chance because of Shelley Duncan or Carlos Pena. The guy is 26 years old and hits the ball 280 ft with the flick of a wrist. My point is that if you're not intending to sign someone that is not a hope and a prayer then just give LaPorta a chance. The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


Do note, I am not giving up on LaPorta. But his performance to date has been spotty and he has not developed at all the past few years. He has actually regressed as a player. I believe he still has a chance to become something with the Indians.....but I don't get this mantra that he has to play with the Indians this year. The guys needs tons of work and development, something which simply cannot be afforded at the big league level when a team is trying to win. It is different if a team is in a development year, but that is not the case this year. He has one option left....use it and send him to the minors where the focus is less on winning and all about development. It is really his last chance to get his swing right, his confidence up, and his consistency with both his offense and defense to what it is expected to be.

Plus, even if he starts the year in Columbus, there is a good chance he will be needed at some point this season because of injuries/performance. In the meantime, go sign a FA first baseman and mix in Duncan/Santana in at 1B.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:42 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my thoughts on LaPorta are not based on "getting value" from the CC trade. That's history in my mind. However, I do know baseball and can recognize talent when it is present. Matt LaPorta brings a potential to be a middle of the order hitter with rare power. If the "sources" you talk to don't see that then the Indians are FUBARed. Yes, I agree he may go the way of Andy Marte. Hell, that is probably likely, but it would be ashame to not give him the chance because of Shelley Duncan or Carlos Pena. The guy is 26 years old and hits the ball 280 ft with the flick of a wrist. My point is that if you're not intending to sign someone that is not a hope and a prayer then just give LaPorta a chance. The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


Do note, I am not giving up on LaPorta. But his performance to date has been spotty and he has not developed at all the past few years. He has actually regressed as a player. I believe he still has a chance to become something with the Indians.....but I don't get this mantra that he has to play with the Indians this year. The guys needs tons of work and development, something which simply cannot be afforded at the big league level when a team is trying to win. It is different if a team is in a development year, but that is not the case this year. He has one option left....use it and send him to the minors where the focus is less on winning and all about development. It is really his last chance to get his swing right, his confidence up, and his consistency with both his offense and defense to what it is expected to be.

Plus, even if he starts the year in Columbus, there is a good chance he will be needed at some point this season because of injuries/performance. In the meantime, go sign a FA first baseman and mix in Duncan/Santana in at 1B.


A guy who raises his average by 26 points, increases his hits, run production and OPS from the previous year isn't regressing.. it's progressing.. His option can be used anytime during the year. He's the best 1B option on the team & is just 27 years old. Matt LaPorta should be retain his starting spot from day one in Spring Training.

-Shelly Duncan is a bench player who may get a few starts at 1B.. not many.

-Carlos Santana is a catcher. The Indians should have his FOCUS on becoming the best catcher he can be and quit screwing around with him as a 1B.

-Spending the kind of resources the Indians have on FA first baseman lessens the chance of winning..

-When isn't a team trying to win?. this year.. last year..the years previous to them?. When?

btw.. your depth chart is still wrong.. Lou Marson is NOT the starting catcher...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:52 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Tribe has also signed OF Fred Lewis to a minor league deal. Not the worst 4th outfielder in the world but seems a bit overkill. Still, no harm in the minor league deals. I like him more than Pie.


Pie also has an opt out in his deal should he not make the opening day roster if I remember correctly. Lewis actually makes sense if thats the case with Pie.

I doubt the opt out makes any difference. Pie simply signed with the right to request his release on opening day if he doesn't make the MLB roster. If he has a great March, he's a legitimate candidate for backup outfielder, if he doesn't he's not likely to get a MLB job with anyone else when all teams are making final cuts.

After opening day, I'm not sure there's any difference. The new CBA has standardized all these minor league free agent deals: "Players on minor league contracts who don't make their teams' Opening Day rosters and aren't released five days before Opening Day obtain a $100K retention bonus and the right to opt out on June 1."
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:29 pm

Anybody going to be breaking out their Roberto Hernandez Heredia #55 jersey this year? Turns out Fausto Carmona's real name is Roberto Heredia, and now he's under arrest in the DR for using a false identity.

It's quite possible he won't be cleared to play until around opening day, so thankfully the Indians have some SP depth.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:38 pm

Amazing news, not sure what to think about Carmona using a false identity. Does he have to be on the 40 man roster? Or can Tribe place him on a restricted list?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:46 pm

Maybe the Indians can spin this as spending $7 million on a new international talent.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby petes999 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:49 pm

I would expect that Carmona may not be able to get back into this country. Look at other players who have trouble getting VISAs due to questionable backgrounds. Now, Carmona needs to get a whole new passport and hope he doesn't get a red flag for falsifying he records?? Just getting arrested is bad enough and may have jail time in that country. But, he is left in limbo on getting back in here -- what ever happened to that 3b that years ago was suppose to be a top prospect but could never get a VISA due to name issues.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:00 pm

How old is Heredia?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:13 pm

Turns out Heredia is 3 years older than Carmona!
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:25 pm

Well shit....so lets assume the worst and that Carmona/Heredia will not be apart of the 2012 Cleveland Indians....

Tribe still on the hook for his $$$? Obviously the 2 remaining club options become pointless to even discuss now.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 pm

@ Pork Chop

LOL, thats funny! Probably not fair, but funny.

#55 did get through the process like others.

Personally I think Id trade #55 for Juan Carlos Oviedo. I hear he's on the block. :good:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:06 pm

Based upon what I have read the Marlins did not have to pay Leo Nunez / Juan Carlos Oviedo after placing him on the restricted list, nor did he count against either the 25 and 40 man rosters.

If I'm the Tribe #55 gets the same treatment.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby InsaneJedi » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:07 pm

I'd have to think that if Heredia isn't allowed back into the country, the Indians have cause to void his contract.

But man, this is not good news.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:With just a few numbers to go, it looks to me like the Tribe payroll will be somewhere between $65-70M in the absence of any significant signing.


My numbers may be off (though I feel pretty confident), but I have the Tribe payroll right at $64M (give or take a little). That's assuming $5M to Cabrera (probably a bit high) and $1.75M to Raffy (probably a tad low)...so feel that even after those two are signed the payroll won't change much from what I've got it at. Not sure if anyone else has a figure?

From what I've gathered $65M was the projected payroll....$70M was the top end/stretching it (though doable), which probably explains the recent reports of the Tribe asking owernship for permission to go over budget (a Carlos Pena signing would put us over $70M, probably around $74M).

I think we will see the payroll around $70M...probably a tad over. Could end badly (like in 2009), but this team seems more capable of contending and putting some more fans in the seats to me...

We are quite close but probably should be as much as is posted already. Out of curiosity, how much did you allocate in the budget for Grady. Up front is $5.5M and potential for $9.5M. Ordinarily, you would set some contingency budget for the upside but he wouldn't get anything based on the last 2 years.


I only put in the guaranteed $5.5M for Grady. While I do think he will bounce back....I think the odds of him getting the full $9.5M are pretty slim (from the way you talk of Grady, I think you'd agree?). The way I look at his incentives....if he does reach them, the team is probably going to be in the race up til the end, which should help pay for those incentives. I agree on your contingency thing, but I think in this case the Tribe won't be as concerned with it, though I may be mistaken there....

Here is another reason I didn't include Grady's incnetives in my count...

If the reports were true, the Tribe had basically the same offer on the table for Carlos Beltran as what the Cards gave him ($13M for 2 years)....that would have put the Tribe 2012 payroll at $77M by my count. I know there was talk that a second move to clear some payroll was in the works....but unless that move was Carmona (which it could have been, though I have my doubts there), they payroll would have still been around $72-$74M before any Grady incentives kicked in. And the way I see it, adding a guy like Carlos Pena or Carlos Lee (for $8-10M) would put the payroll right around that mark as well before any Grady incentives.

Your logic fits about payroll IMO, especially since the window of opportunity for Indians in 2012 probably improved when Victor went down. I am not sure the Indians won't make a payroll move but they have not been rushing into anything.

Now I am not as clear on Grady as you appear to be. My initial assessment was that he would either make most, if not all the incentives, or make none. Although timing of any injury or even team performance could effect that, I think that was the intent of both parties. Since the incentives are not performance related like a bonus for MVP, I think you have to budget for the possibility. It could be a payroll variation of 6% in one basket and should be accounted for. The Indians are the best judge of how much but I would think you would have to reserve at least $2M. BTW, I don't think the Tribe has a snowball's chance in hell at arb with AsCab after the Choo signing. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby jellis » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:14 pm

He is a 31, had one good year, and only two years with an era under 4. Head case issues in the past, and with this weighing over him no way I can see him preform. I was a huge supporter, but I want to go on record saying void him now
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:26 pm

Well Carmona - thanks a lot. But seriously could be a blessing in disguise - With the FO's failure to aquire a BAT (Beltran, Willingham etc.) lets get Oswalt NOW! Think he would put up better numbers than Carmona and possibly great trade bait worst case scenario.

We could use Carmona salary for this year to be a big portion of Oswalts salary - cut em loose - put him on the DQ list. Considering the circumstances I imagine MLB would agree the tribe does not owe Carmona/Herrida/whatever another cent.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:11 pm

I believe that the Tribe should do everything possible to void #55 's contract. I was a supporter, but no longer. I'm all in on trying to sign Oswalt. Actually I've been saying for sometime the Tribe needs to add another arm like Jeff Francis on a 1 yr deal and try to move #55 for a cpl prospects. No way that happens.

Looking at the legal ramifications I would believe the Tribe have legal grounds to void the $7mil. option.
(The option was signed by said player under false pretense---age, identity).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:24 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Well Carmona - thanks a lot. But seriously could be a blessing in disguise - With the FO's failure to aquire a BAT (Beltran, Willingham etc.) lets get Oswalt NOW! Think he would put up better numbers than Carmona and possibly great trade bait worst case scenario.

We could use Carmona salary for this year to be a big portion of Oswalts salary - cut em loose - put him on the DQ list. Considering the circumstances I imagine MLB would agree the tribe does not owe Carmona/Herrida/whatever another cent.

Hey criz, I would encourage you to not rush to judgment about the best thing to do in Carmona's circumstance which has many options. However, the MLPBA has been reluctant to engage in open warfare regarding similar matters so the Indians have time to evaluate the best course for the team.

I don't have a clue why you would even bring up Oswalt? He does not want to come to Cleveland! Many players who have been stars at one time feel that Cleveland is the franchise of last resort. They might negotiate with Cleveland like Beltran did but they aren't going to come to Cleveland unless they are overpaid ridiculously. IMO, there are much more practical uses for any money saved to 2012 than to spend it on an aging, declining star who does not want to be in Cleveland. But that is just me. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:13 pm

jellis wrote:He is a 31, had one good year, and only two years with an era under 4. Head case issues in the past, and with this weighing over him no way I can see him preform. I was a huge supporter, but I want to go on record saying void him now


I'd hold off on voiding til more details/facts came out. 1 good year is a bit harsh...2007 and 2010 were good years. Plus, if you void him...where are you going to get the 180+ innings he's given you the last two years? Sure, maybe a guy like Gomez could step up or McAllister or Huff, but personally have more confidence in Carmona (or whatever his name is) than any of those 3 holding up for a whole season. My guess is the Tribe feels similarly...as they went out and got Lowe...


That all said....this does seem bad. I'm not as worried about the age thing (really 28 vs 31...on a 1 year deal, who cares?), but the head case issues you mentioned....eek, can't imagine how those will be after this affair. If the details come out and it's as bad as it sounds, voiding starts to sound like a much better option...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:29 pm

indianinkslinger wrote: BTW, I don't think the Tribe has a snowball's chance in hell at arb with AsCab after the Choo signing. :pleasantry:


Seems we agree mostly just wording differently. This though....we see differently. You definitely could be right, but I'd be surprised if AC got more than Choo. Arby isn't decided by what you did the previous year only, it's largely influenced by previous years, specifically what you made. Choo has a better track record than AC and made more in 2011. Also think it's a bit of a moot point...I highly doubt the Tribe ends up going to arbitration with AC. Remember, just cause numbers were exchanged doesn't mean you have to go to arbitration. Can work out a deal up until you walk thru the doors of the hearing. I'd say it's very, very likely the Tribe/AC settle for something between their two offers before the hearing. Really think jellis hit the nail on the head with AC.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:45 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Well Carmona - thanks a lot. But seriously could be a blessing in disguise - With the FO's failure to aquire a BAT (Beltran, Willingham etc.) lets get Oswalt NOW! Think he would put up better numbers than Carmona and possibly great trade bait worst case scenario.

We could use Carmona salary for this year to be a big portion of Oswalts salary - cut em loose - put him on the DQ list. Considering the circumstances I imagine MLB would agree the tribe does not owe Carmona/Herrida/whatever another cent.


I pass on Oswalt. While I am hugely disappointed in Carmona (his stuff is wicked but it's so good even he doesn't know where it's going), if the Indians do save the $9mil, I rather spend it on a bat than a #4 or #5 starter.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:08 pm

I think people are overreacting with the void requests. Look, he has a 1 year contract for $7 million. It's not like he just signed a new 5 year $65 million deal.

If the visa issues get straightened out before the season, his $7 milion amount it pretty close to his worth on the open market. If he can't pitch because of visa issues, the Indians can simply just place him on the restricted list and they don't have to pay him. The Indians are not going to lose any money.

I think within the next week we will see what they do and anything they may do in correspondence with the move. I don't believe Oswalt is an option.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:15 pm

Hmmm...28 or 31, he's still the same guy who throws a wicked/nasty sinking fastball.. when he's on, he's as tough as anyone.. With the legal issues coming his way, perhaps this will create a level a focus and maturity that hasn't been seen in this young man in a long time.or like that Ortiz guy out with Anaheim:

Which brings to mind the reaction out of Anaheim a decade ago when it was learned Ramon Ortiz was 28, not the 25 that was in their records. Vice president Tim Mead mused, “We’re excited to have a more mature, knowledgeable pitcher.”

Sure enough, a wiser Ortiz won 31 games over the next two seasons, the best years of his career.


On the down side, it's a pretty good bet that failure to perform (while in jail or cannot enter the US) will be met with non-payment via restricted list.. contract void..etc.. If he has been squeaky clean in the DR during this tenure, then the paper work should sort itself out in the next few weeks..hopefully..

BTW.. 11+ years?.. it takes 11+ years for the DR to determine that FAUSTO is really BOB?.. smh.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:28 am

TonyIPI wrote:I think people are overreacting with the void requests. Look, he has a 1 year contract for $7 million. It's not like he just signed a new 5 year $65 million deal.

If the visa issues get straightened out before the season, his $7 milion amount it pretty close to his worth on the open market. If he can't pitch because of visa issues, the Indians can simply just place him on the restricted list and they don't have to pay him. The Indians are not going to lose any money.

I think within the next week we will see what they do and anything they may do in correspondence with the move. I don't believe Oswalt is an option.


Absolutely true. Besides, $7MM is not going to get Roy Oswalt to come to Cleveland. MAYBE, if we combined that $7MM and the hypothetical $5MM available for a 1B, we could get a deal done. But I would suggest that the money would be better spent on Carlos Pena. The upgrade from LaPorta to Pena is much more valuable than an upgrade from Jeanmar Gomez to an aging Roy Oswalt (who hasn't even pitched in the AL before, mind you).

Also, remember that the Indians have to keep a decent relationship with their players. Cleveland isn't a popular destination for pro athletes, but the brass needs to still compete for players in the international free agent market and, to a lesser extent, the free agent market. Them being able to keep Grady this year probably stemmed from the fact that they have a pretty good relationship with the guy. They obviously had a good relationship with Victor - what with the teary press conference and all - and that's why to this day, that trade bugs me more than the Cliff Lee trade, despite getting a much better return. If they void Fausto's contract, I think that's the kind of thing that sends a bad message across the league and to the remaining players - basically that the Indians won't hesitate to throw their players under the bus. That is the very last thing the Indians need.

That being said... there is no way the Indians should even consider picking up his option next year unless he turns in an amazing performance this year. $9MM is a bit much for a 32 year old MOR starter when you have the depth that the Indians do.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:31 am

Hermie13 wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:The Indians will not win or lose a pennant because of Carlos freakin Pena.


And the Indians will not win the pennant because of Matt freakin LaPorta....so what's your point?


If LaPorta performs to his potential he will help win a pennant long before Pena. On top of that you save 8-10 million and maybe use it more beneficially. The love affair with Pena at the money he is demanding is ignorant. He's not a good fit, that's my point.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ironmike » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:08 am

Tony, correct me if I'm wrong, the Indians are extremely high on McAllister because of his age and of his ability to perform so well at Triple A. Was he not the youngest starting pitcher in Triple A last year at the age of 22? Gomez surprises us and pitches decently. Huff also progressed last year.

These three pitchers plus Barnes get their shot one year earlier. Didn't see Carmona in the teams plans beyond this year. Good things may happen from all of this. The Indians tend to hold back their young pitchers for whatever reasons. Oswalt? For one year, yes, he can still pitch but he's starting to rely more on his secondary pitches. He has never pitched in the AL either ... big difference.

Kind of sad to see all of this happening in the Dominican Republic. Young talent is being taught and coaxed to use false identities more than likely to be more marketable. Follow the money, it isn't the young kids fault. It's the people representing them. I'm positive there are lots of pay offs involved. A very poor country. Again, kind of sad.

More than likely these ML players are under heavy scrutiny by the government there because they know they have leverage because the player has the money to pay his way out of the mess.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:16 am

Edible14 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:I think people are overreacting with the void requests. Look, he has a 1 year contract for $7 million. It's not like he just signed a new 5 year $65 million deal.

If the visa issues get straightened out before the season, his $7 milion amount it pretty close to his worth on the open market. If he can't pitch because of visa issues, the Indians can simply just place him on the restricted list and they don't have to pay him. The Indians are not going to lose any money.

I think within the next week we will see what they do and anything they may do in correspondence with the move. I don't believe Oswalt is an option.


Absolutely true. Besides, $7MM is not going to get Roy Oswalt to come to Cleveland. MAYBE, if we combined that $7MM and the hypothetical $5MM available for a 1B, we could get a deal done. But I would suggest that the money would be better spent on Carlos Pena. The upgrade from LaPorta to Pena is much more valuable than an upgrade from Jeanmar Gomez to an aging Roy Oswalt (who hasn't even pitched in the AL before, mind you).

Also, remember that the Indians have to keep a decent relationship with their players. Cleveland isn't a popular destination for pro athletes, but the brass needs to still compete for players in the international free agent market and, to a lesser extent, the free agent market. Them being able to keep Grady this year probably stemmed from the fact that they have a pretty good relationship with the guy. They obviously had a good relationship with Victor - what with the teary press conference and all - and that's why to this day, that trade bugs me more than the Cliff Lee trade, despite getting a much better return. If they void Fausto's contract, I think that's the kind of thing that sends a bad message across the league and to the remaining players - basically that the Indians won't hesitate to throw their players under the bus. That is the very last thing the Indians need.

That being said... there is no way the Indians should even consider picking up his option next year unless he turns in an amazing performance this year. $9MM is a bit much for a 32 year old MOR starter when you have the depth that the Indians do.

+1. I think both of you summed up the situation very well. Not sure it is the best advice to Indians to throw the baby out with the bath water since Cleveland is not the most popular player destination already. Just happy that the organization has the pitching depth it has. I am not going to lose sleep if Gomez is the replacement choice if it comes to that. He outpitched Carmona significantly last year. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:12 pm

The Tribe has signed 32 yr old OF Ryan Spilborghs formerly of the Rockies to a minor league deal.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:30 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Tribe has signed 32 yr old OF Ryan Spilborghs formerly of the Rockies to a minor league deal.

A very good signing Home... good depth signing.. and has a real chance to regain the form he exhibited in previous years (not 2011)...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:07 pm

From Jon Morosi on Twitter

Source: #Indians acquire Kevin Slowey from #Rockies for Zach Putnam.
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:35 pm

I hate to lose Zach Putnam but I actually like adding Kevin Slowey. He's affordable ($2.75 mil) for a reason.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby petes999 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:41 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:From Jon Morosi on Twitter

Source: #Indians acquire Kevin Slowey from #Rockies for Zach Putnam.


Kind of shows you how desperate we are to replace Carmona ... the value of Slowey went from a non-prospect to a top-10 prospect (per BA). I know the Indians want a veteran as they assume we will be in the title hunt. Yet, Twins dumped him for a nobody for a reason.

"Now that the Rule 5 draft is over the player to be named later has been revealed as Double-A right-hander Daniel Turpen, a side-arming reliever who’s a marginal prospect at best"
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:44 pm

I like this trade. Slowey was awful last season, but he was pretty good from 2008-2010. He posted a 6.6 WAR despite missing half a season over that span. He does get hit, but he almost never walks batters. He is not a bad option for the back of the rotation if Carmona can't play next year.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:49 pm

The Tribe also acq. CASH considerations per mlbtraderumors.com
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:18 am

petes999 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:From Jon Morosi on Twitter

Source: #Indians acquire Kevin Slowey from #Rockies for Zach Putnam.


Kind of shows you how desperate we are to replace Carmona ... the value of Slowey went from a non-prospect to a top-10 prospect (per BA). I know the Indians want a veteran as they assume we will be in the title hunt. Yet, Twins dumped him for a nobody for a reason.

"Now that the Rule 5 draft is over the player to be named later has been revealed as Double-A right-hander Daniel Turpen, a side-arming reliever who’s a marginal prospect at best"


I doubt Kevin Slowey is the type of pitcher you aquire to help win a title. The more I think about this the more confusing it gets and the more I don't like it. It would be different if he had options or was on a minor league contract.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:16 am

Slowey is a low risk move. Low ceiling too, truth be told. I like adding a starting pitcher to the mix, I dislike trading Zach Putnam for Kevin Slowey and $1.25. Overall, I like the add, but dislike the subtraction of a potential closer. I felt Putnam could have brought more than Slowey and $1.25 mil. It's a decent deal overall, but the more I think about it the more I hate to have lost Putnam, who I believe can be a real force out of the pen.

The move overall of adding Slowey,brings 2 yrs of control for a back of the rotation starter / maybe long man who does have one option yr and another yr of arb. The perk is Slowey comes at only $1.5 mil.

I just don't see the difference honestly, in signing a guy like Rich Harden for $2 mil or Jeff Francis for $2 mil and incentives or trading a potential closer in Putnam for Kevin Slowey, while I first felt this was a good move, the more I think about what the Tribe gave up, the more I dislike what the Tribe got back in return.

I guess this is just a MEH deal. Not great, but the Tribe didnt get robbed either. Slowey holds a career 39-29 w/l record and a career 4.66 era. Just tells me this kid will pitch 5/6 innings on avg. and give up 3/4 runs every time.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:24 am

Chip Davis wrote:
petes999 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:From Jon Morosi on Twitter

Source: #Indians acquire Kevin Slowey from #Rockies for Zach Putnam.


Kind of shows you how desperate we are to replace Carmona ... the value of Slowey went from a non-prospect to a top-10 prospect (per BA). I know the Indians want a veteran as they assume we will be in the title hunt. Yet, Twins dumped him for a nobody for a reason.

"Now that the Rule 5 draft is over the player to be named later has been revealed as Double-A right-hander Daniel Turpen, a side-arming reliever who’s a marginal prospect at best"


I doubt Kevin Slowey is the type of pitcher you aquire to help win a title. The more I think about this the more confusing it gets and the more I don't like it. It would be different if he had options or was on a minor league contract.

Counting options is not my strong point but it looks to me like he has another option, Chip. I have considered Slowey a BOR pitcher, much like Tomlin. There are similarities but, IMO, Tomlin has better command of less impressive pitches. If we lose the pitcher formerly known as Fausto for the season and Tomlin does not heal well, the Indians might be happy with Slowey as his replacement in the rotation. As I said earlier, not a big fan of the deal because I believe Putnam was destined to be a late inning stopper with some more experience. :pleasantry:
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