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Indians offseason moves

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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:25 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Wow how people take things to the extreme. Brantley is not being looked at 1B as a possible solution to fill the position. He is simply an option to CONSIDER for next year to add versatility to the lineup, especially if they acquire an outfielder. He would only play 20-30 games max, if even that and they would still need to get an every day 1B option or so with Santana/LaPorta/Duncan as the main option there.

As for Sizemore, absolutely no chance he plays 1B. He resigned with the Indians because we gave him the opportunity to play center field everyday, something we promised, to rebuild his market value. If he plays first base it severely hinders his chances for a big contract next offseason. To get that deal he has to play center field, stay healthy, and play well.

Hard to believe this is an offseason move that warrants much "comment". :crazy:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:28 am

After sleeping on this thread regarding the Michael Brantley getting some reps at 1B (he did play some 1B in the Miwaukee minor league system).. The commentor stating that if the Indians want to try (not start..) Grady Sizemore for that spot (and agreed with the understanding that there is little likelihood Grady would be moved to 1B as he signed with the expressed purpose of regaining his value as a CF'er), it hit me..

Michael Young....

This Texas Ranger and Jason Donald are almost clones of each other. Same height, weight, both started as SS's, both have played 2B's, both have filled in at 3B, both hit, both are integral parts of their clubs, but not really considered starters at any one position. The similarities are compelling.. Michael Young has filled in at 1B for the Rangers when Mitch Moreland needed a day off.. etc..

Perhaps Jason Donald, along with getting reps in the OF, should look into getting a 1B's glove?..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:37 am

GeronimoSon wrote:After sleeping on this thread regarding the Michael Brantley getting some reps at 1B (he did play some 1B in the Miwaukee minor league system).. The commentor stating that if the Indians want to try (not start..) Grady Sizemore for that spot (and agreed with the understanding that there is little likelihood Grady would be moved to 1B as he signed with the expressed purpose of regaining his value as a CF'er), it hit me..

Michael Young....

This Texas Ranger and Jason Donald are almost clones of each other. Same height, weight, both started as SS's, both have played 2B's, both have filled in at 3B, both hit, both are integral parts of their clubs, but not really considered starters at any one position. The similarities are compelling.. Michael Young has filled in at 1B for the Rangers when Mitch Moreland needed a day off.. etc..

Perhaps Jason Donald, along with getting reps in the OF, should look into getting a 1B's glove?..


There was some talk about Donald possibly getting some looks at 1B. Seems though that he will work ob the OF though. No sense ib putting too much on his plate. Dont see young and dinald as clones though. Young is a much better hitter.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:55 am

The Indians were said to be inquiring about Mark DeRosa as a utility guy. Perhaps that was the same thing as the Nick Punto interest from last year, but, a guy who may be much more interesting and doesn't have the wrist injury baggage could be Hiroyuki Nakajima ? He's a middle infielder who has mad bat to ball skills (read: slap hitter). It was speculated that the NYY's don't have a spot for him:

ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that the question is being explored as to whether or not the Yankees will trade Nakajima, as they don't really have a role for them on their club.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:05 am

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:After sleeping on this thread regarding the Michael Brantley getting some reps at 1B (he did play some 1B in the Miwaukee minor league system).. The commentor stating that if the Indians want to try (not start..) Grady Sizemore for that spot (and agreed with the understanding that there is little likelihood Grady would be moved to 1B as he signed with the expressed purpose of regaining his value as a CF'er), it hit me..

Michael Young....

This Texas Ranger and Jason Donald are almost clones of each other. Same height, weight, both started as SS's, both have played 2B's, both have filled in at 3B, both hit, both are integral parts of their clubs, but not really considered starters at any one position. The similarities are compelling.. Michael Young has filled in at 1B for the Rangers when Mitch Moreland needed a day off.. etc..

Perhaps Jason Donald, along with getting reps in the OF, should look into getting a 1B's glove?..


There was some talk about Donald possibly getting some looks at 1B. Seems though that he will work ob the OF though. No sense ib putting too much on his plate. Dont see young and dinald as clones though. Young is a much better hitter.


No bout a doubt it.. Michael Young IS a much better hitter now.. but that's comparing apples to bananas, getting fruit salad..

At around the same age, 26/27 years old:

MY .262/.308/.382 and .306/.339/.446
JD .253/.312/.376 and .318/.364/.402

Granted, Jason Donald only got about half as many at bats.. but the similarities are there..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:11 am

The Angels may non-tender Kendrys Morales?.. really?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:51 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The Indians were said to be inquiring about Mark DeRosa as a utility guy. Perhaps that was the same thing as the Nick Punto interest from last year, but, a guy who may be much more interesting and doesn't have the wrist injury baggage could be Hiroyuki Nakajima ? He's a middle infielder who has mad bat to ball skills (read: slap hitter). It was speculated that the NYY's don't have a spot for him:

ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that the question is being explored as to whether or not the Yankees will trade Nakajima, as they don't really have a role for them on their club.

Mad bat to ball skills?! He's struck out in 19.6% of his career at-bats in Japan. Over the past 5 seasons he's averaged 530 AB, 53 BB, 107 SO. Over his career, he's walked in 9% of his plate appearances (a little more often than Matt LaPorta), so he likes to swing... a little too much. He's been more of a power-hitter relative to his position, but we're still only talking ~20 HR a year, and power has basically never translated in the move from Japan to the states, so don't expect those numbers. His reputation at shortstop is nothing special either.

The Yankees are looking at him as a utility player, which is what it sounds like he'd rightfully be on a good MLB team.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:14 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The Indians were said to be inquiring about Mark DeRosa as a utility guy. Perhaps that was the same thing as the Nick Punto interest from last year, but, a guy who may be much more interesting and doesn't have the wrist injury baggage could be Hiroyuki Nakajima ? He's a middle infielder who has mad bat to ball skills (read: slap hitter). It was speculated that the NYY's don't have a spot for him:

ESPN's Buster Olney tweets that the question is being explored as to whether or not the Yankees will trade Nakajima, as they don't really have a role for them on their club.

Mad bat to ball skills?! He's struck out in 19.6% of his career at-bats in Japan. Over the past 5 seasons he's averaged 530 AB, 53 BB, 107 SO. Over his career, he's walked in 9% of his plate appearances (a little more often than Matt LaPorta), so he likes to swing... a little too much. He's been more of a power-hitter relative to his position, but we're still only talking ~20 HR a year, and power has basically never translated in the move from Japan to the states, so don't expect those numbers. His reputation at shortstop is nothing special either.

The Yankees are looking at him as a utility player, which is what it sounds like he'd rightfully be on a good MLB team.

Yeah not a guy i would look at either. If you wanted him then bid on him. Agree on the power. Hell Iwamura hit 32 dingers in a season befote coming stateside....hit 16 in his big league career. I would rather sign vizquel than trade for a utility infielder
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:25 am

The Tribe had an uneventful rule V and Rondon made it thru DFA. Hope the rest of our higher ceiling pitchers and Weglars ffare better and this does not portend problems for Carrasco. Wonder who will get Rondon's spot on the Columbus staff? I would guess McFarland or Adams but it might be a RP. Still might be some staff movement.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:24 am

indianinkslinger wrote:The Tribe had an uneventful rule V and Rondon made it thru DFA. Hope the rest of our higher ceiling pitchers and Weglars ffare better and this does not portend problems for Carrasco. Wonder who will get Rondon's spot on the Columbus staff? I would guess McFarland or Adams but it might be a RP. Still might be some staff movement.


Yeah, was nothing to worry about with Rule 5 this year. I know some people were worried about Stowell, Bryson, Araujo, McFarland, etc....but just goes to show that teams did not think anyone was capable of sticking on a ML roster and making a difference, or that fans tend to greatly overvalue their own players/prospects.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Edible14 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:54 am

indianinkslinger wrote:The Tribe had an uneventful rule V and Rondon made it thru DFA. Hope the rest of our higher ceiling pitchers and Weglars ffare better and this does not portend problems for Carrasco. Wonder who will get Rondon's spot on the Columbus staff? I would guess McFarland or Adams but it might be a RP. Still might be some staff movement.



I'd imagine Kluber or Espino, since they're both listed as relievers on Tony's depth chart. Probably both if Barnes ends up starting the year in Arizona to get healthy. Could be a tough year for starters in Akron to get promotions.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:32 am

TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:The Tribe had an uneventful rule V and Rondon made it thru DFA. Hope the rest of our higher ceiling pitchers and Weglars ffare better and this does not portend problems for Carrasco. Wonder who will get Rondon's spot on the Columbus staff? I would guess McFarland or Adams but it might be a RP. Still might be some staff movement.


Yeah, was nothing to worry about with Rule 5 this year. I know some people were worried about Stowell, Bryson, Araujo, McFarland, etc....but just goes to show that teams did not think anyone was capable of sticking on a ML roster and making a difference, or that fans tend to greatly overvalue their own players/prospects.


Of the 12 picks in the major league phase of the of Rule V draft, two have already been traded. 18 teams decided not to bother with the draft, altogether. If a guess was to be made, only the selection of Rhiner Cruz may end up sticking throughout the 2012 season. The rest.. little or no chance..

The Rule V Draft = :::YAWN:::
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:10 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:The Tribe had an uneventful rule V and Rondon made it thru DFA. Hope the rest of our higher ceiling pitchers and Weglars ffare better and this does not portend problems for Carrasco. Wonder who will get Rondon's spot on the Columbus staff? I would guess McFarland or Adams but it might be a RP. Still might be some staff movement.


Yeah, was nothing to worry about with Rule 5 this year. I know some people were worried about Stowell, Bryson, Araujo, McFarland, etc....but just goes to show that teams did not think anyone was capable of sticking on a ML roster and making a difference, or that fans tend to greatly overvalue their own players/prospects.

Pretty much on the same page but I was still shocked by two adds for the 40. I don't know about you but that has caused me to re-evaluate my ranking list, especially with the lack of optimistic health reports about the injured prospects.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby toledobuck » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:31 am

The guy that was not picked in the rule 5 who could have a huge year is Alex Perez. He seems to be fully back from injury and could make a huge leap this year as a starter who has several plus pitches.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:50 am

Agreed by yrs end Alex Perez could potentially be a top 10 prospect, maybe top 5 but there is still a ton Of talent in the lower levels of the system. While the system is not top heavy by any means there seems to be a pretty even playing field. Perez is a guy I think could end up in AA for a cup of coffee if all goes well but could still be limited in innings.

Hopefully Jason Knapp beats him for comeback player of the yr, thats unlikely as Knapp will also be limited in innings as well.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:11 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Agreed by yrs end Alex Perez could potentially be a top 10 prospect, maybe top 5 but there is still a ton Of talent in the lower levels of the system. While the system is not top heavy by any means there seems to be a pretty even playing field. Perez is a guy I think could end up in AA for a cup of coffee if all goes well but could still be limited in innings.

Hopefully Jason Knapp beats him for comeback player of the yr, thats unlikely as Knapp will also be limited in innings as well.


The kind of surgery (Bankart Repair) that Jason Knapp has undergone is complex and has the added difficulty on how much time recovery will take. The projected time frame for full recovery for the "usual" anterior arthroscopic procedure is four to six months. The key to full recovery is the rate at which an athlete such as Jason Knapp ramps up the stress on the repaired and healing tissue. Too much strain too soon, and he could get the chance to start all over. Second surgical procedures are not uncommon as the stability of the shoulder can be precarious. The second surgery can typically help keep the shoulder joint from developing excessive scar tissue and or the early onset of arthritis.

In short..it's a slow, methodical process that fights time and an athlete's normal inclination to "work" to get back. Jason Knapp has a history of being a hard worker. That could work against him w/r to his shoulder problems. If he listens to his docs and therapists, it would not be a surprise to see him back to full strength by the start of spring training in February.

As far as his career as a ML starting pitcher or relief pitcher, there is nothing that is gained or lost by the pursuit of either path. That is, his shoulder can be weakened/harmed/damaged as either an RP or SP.. one pitch, straining the labral capsule the wrong way, and his career could be over...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:59 pm

I guess we all know Knapp is a high ceiling arm and his value to the Tribe is as a starter. Personally, I think we see him in a piggy back situation where his innings are limited.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby ClevelandBlues » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:02 pm

I see Knapp's future as a reliever. He has had a lot of injuries already, and any further injuries puts him into Adam Miller territory. Pitching out of the bullpen will put less wear and tear on his arm, and his stuff profiles well for the bullpen. Even if he were 100% healthy going into spring training, he has missed so much time that it would likely take two or three seasons for him to build up the arm strength to handle a starter's workload. As a reliever, he could possibly be ready to contribute this season.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:28 pm

ClevelandBlues wrote:I see Knapp's future as a reliever. He has had a lot of injuries already, and any further injuries puts him into Adam Miller territory. Pitching out of the bullpen will put less wear and tear on his arm, and his stuff profiles well for the bullpen. Even if he were 100% healthy going into spring training, he has missed so much time that it would likely take two or three seasons for him to build up the arm strength to handle a starter's workload. As a reliever, he could possibly be ready to contribute this season.


He's actually had one injury. It's taken this long to get to the point where he may have a chance (no more than a chance) to restart his journey on the path to becoming a ML pitcher. The issue is does his stuff translate to the pen or to the starting rotation. One thing this injury doesn't have as an adjunct: tear = yes.. wear = no. The time lost is gone.. the clock for him being under the team's control is relevant, but, only if he can pitch. Otherwise, who knows...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:57 pm

Stuff wise I'd say Knapp is easily a back of the pen arm. He has however the potential to be a top of the rotation arm. The catch here is where will or can he even be healthy?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:18 am

Jerry DiPoto has announced that Kendrys Morales will be tendered a contract, so, if the Indians do their due diligence regarding his health and are convinced his injury is now in his wake, a trade would be needed. DiPoto also stated that Mark Trumbo will be given the opportunity to earn the starting 3B position and or will have a place on the Angels roster..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:54 pm

Tribe has reportedly (mlbtraderumors) inked Felix Pie-CF to a minor league deal. Pie could reportedly earn up to $1 mil with incentives included. Pie will also have an opt out clause for opening day.

Sounds like insurance in case Sizemore were to go down. But the early opt out could hurt that.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:16 pm

Meh. Okay depth option I guess. Strangely enough I thought he was pretty good defensively, but the numbers don't back me up on that. And he seems pretty much useless against lefties.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:19 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe has reportedly (mlbtraderumors) inked Felix Pie-CF to a minor league deal. Pie could reportedly earn up to $1 mil with incentives included. Pie will also have an opt out clause for opening day.

Sounds like insurance in case Sizemore were to go down. But the early opt out could hurt that.

Shows how little certainty there is with prospects. Only 3-4 yrs. ago Pie was one of the top specs in baseball.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:25 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Meh. Okay depth option I guess. Strangely enough I thought he was pretty good defensively, but the numbers don't back me up on that. And he seems pretty much useless against lefties.


Depends what you look at. FRAA likes him defensevely as his time in Baltimore he posted +8, +4.2, and + 2.3 ratings. His career dWAR is also 1.2 (had a bad 2011 but solid otherwise). TZ loves his CF defense, and even UZR likes it to an extent. Just not enough playing time/samples to get good measures with the fielding stats really.

Not a bad depth guy as you said. Can play CF so that helps. Little redundant with Zeke, but more experience which the Tribe could like more (should Grady or Brantley go down).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:38 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe has reportedly (mlbtraderumors) inked Felix Pie-CF to a minor league deal. Pie could reportedly earn up to $1 mil with incentives included. Pie will also have an opt out clause for opening day.

Sounds like insurance in case Sizemore were to go down. But the early opt out could hurt that.


Insurance? Blah. I'd rather go with Zeke Carrera on this roster if one of our starting outfielders goes down this spring.

Not sure I get this signing.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:51 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe has reportedly (mlbtraderumors) inked Felix Pie-CF to a minor league deal. Pie could reportedly earn up to $1 mil with incentives included. Pie will also have an opt out clause for opening day.

Sounds like insurance in case Sizemore were to go down. But the early opt out could hurt that.


Insurance? Blah. I'd rather go with Zeke Carrera on this roster if one of our starting outfielders goes down this spring.

Not sure I get this signing.

Seems like another LH bat who cannot hit LHP is not what they need but I suppose you have to have the depth if Sizemore does not make it thru ST. Like you, I am not sure he brings anything to the table other than Cabrera other than experience. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Gotta be honest, I don't get the Pie signing either. Best I figure he's insurance for the OF but personally I'd rather see Carrera, Neal, Weglarz, or even Fedroff in the OF. Got to give these guys a chance at some point.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:11 pm

I dont get this one at all... Perhaps Brantley is on the move but even then I really think was a waste..... Its hard to imagine a ML season that has both the indians making a run for the division and Felix Pie getting any "real" ML playing time, really seems wasteful - but one could argue that this off-season has been a total waster up to this point.

I would assume right around 1/2 of the decent FA's (ones that could see more than a minute in the ML in 2012) have been signed or agreed to a deal. Time to start playing ball, not getting a trade done at the Winter meetings raises my eyebrow a lil - but we will see what happens with the Lees and Willingham.....
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:56 pm

Actually, 16 of the top 25 FA's haven't signed a contract as of this morning. The GM Meetings start laying the ground work for deals. Some deals are consummated at the Winter Meetings.. but the majority of deals are completed from the end of the winter meetings to the end of January. So, there are about 45 days left in this window.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:48 am

I personally believe we see the Tribe make several moves in that time frame (now to Jan. 31st) I don't think CA is done by any means several more minor league moves, probably a trade maybe 2 and a FA signing. It seems to me the Tribe is stuck in a holding pattern... Until they can work out a deal or Cuddyer signs, if money is close I think he ends in MN and then the mkt on Willingham is down to the Rox, BoSox (?) and Tribe. I'd think the Tribe might be down to Derek Lee, Carlos Pena, CLee, Ludwick maybe Luke Scott if he's healthy, but thats only 2 RH bats.

If only the Tribe had the $$$$ for Prince Fielder. :good:

Personally, I think the Tribe needs to make several moves and some might not be popular. Just saying it takes money or talent to acq. talent. The Tribe has a ton of pitching depth still. Remember all 5 of the projected starters at AAA are on the 40 man roster. These guys may not be no more than 3-5 type starters but pkg together they still have value. Also the depth of the system remains in the pen, and several of the starters could end up relegated to the pen.

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't (????) the Tribe have tr. for Casey McGehee he hits RH and produces as well or better than any of the names above.

Anybody broke down the non-tender list yet? Anyone of value? I thought I read some pitchers who might have some value... Saunders, Volstad, Hensley.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:27 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:I personally believe we see the Tribe make several moves in that time frame (now to Jan. 31st) I don't think CA is done by any means several more minor league moves, probably a trade maybe 2 and a FA signing. It seems to me the Tribe is stuck in a holding pattern... Until they can work out a deal or Cuddyer signs, if money is close I think he ends in MN and then the mkt on Willingham is down to the Rox, BoSox (?) and Tribe. I'd think the Tribe might be down to Derek Lee, Carlos Pena, CLee, Ludwick maybe Luke Scott if he's healthy, but thats only 2 RH bats.

If only the Tribe had the $$$$ for Prince Fielder. :good:

Personally, I think the Tribe needs to make several moves and some might not be popular. Just saying it takes money or talent to acq. talent. The Tribe has a ton of pitching depth still. Remember all 5 of the projected starters at AAA are on the 40 man roster. These guys may not be no more than 3-5 type starters but pkg together they still have value. Also the depth of the system remains in the pen, and several of the starters could end up relegated to the pen.

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't (????) the Tribe have tr. for Casey McGehee he hits RH and produces as well or better than any of the names above.

Anybody broke down the non-tender list yet? Anyone of value? I thought I read some pitchers who might have some value... Saunders, Volstad, Hensley.


In reverse..

-Position players that have been non-tendered aren't very numerous or very good.. perhaps Ryan Spilbourghs or Cole Garner from the Rockies..
-SP's & RP's non tendered have some interest.. Dan Cortes from the Mariners had a live arm and could really bring it, but had some injury issues that may make him worthless to the Indians..

This isn't a very good non-tender group.. i.e. there doesn't appear to be another Alfredo Aceves in the bunch..

Regarding Casey McGehee.. yes, it seems that he was acquired for not much and had the 'upside' based on his non 2011 numbers to be a contributor.. The Pirates' need at 3B is pretty clear.. they can't count on Pedro Alvarez to produce, so, the Pirates have brought in some competition for his tenuous spot...

The moves the Indians may make can range from the minimalist fill in roster fodder spring training take a looksie variety to a block buster trade (three way?).. Who knows when or if this comes to pass.. Here's hoping it's a really big time deal of a trade...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:31 pm

Spilborghs and Garner maybe as minor league deals.

With the Pirates nabbing McGehee in that tr. I'm curious what there offer is to Derek Lee. I'd go 5-6 mil maybe one yr.

I've heard little if any chatter on the Tribe and trades. If anything they have done well in keeping potential deals close to camp.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:59 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Spilborghs and Garner maybe as minor league deals.

With the Pirates nabbing McGehee in that tr. I'm curious what there offer is to Derek Lee. I'd go 5-6 mil maybe one yr.

I've heard little if any chatter on the Tribe and trades. If anything they have done well in keeping potential deals close to camp.

This coming weekend and week are usually a "busy" time as players head for their castles and fiefdoms for the duration of the holiday season. They usually are pushing their agents to get the best deal possible so when arriving where ever they're headed, they can share their good news. The Indians, according to several different sources including IPI have at least one and possibly more than one "deal" that is in their court. They are also said to have at least one and perhaps more than one "deal" that they've proposed to other clubs that they are waiting on. It's a hurry up and wait kind of situation.. :dunno:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:08 pm

Something that hasn't been talked about a lot but I think applies here is extentions to our current group of guys. Tribe has a few guys that arby elgibile and some should/will be looked at as extention candidates.

Obvious two are AC and Choo. Both had some discussions with the Tribe but nothing came of it. Choo is the tough one with Boras as an agent....call me crazy, but think after this past year there's a chance we could get him to go for a 3 year deal this winter (should the Tribe want to that is). It's very rare, but not unheard of for a Boras client to sign an extension into his free agent years. Carlos Pena agreed to an extension with the Rays after a big year and bought out 1 free agent year. Carlos Gonzalez just signed a huge deal as well. Tribe isn't exactly overflowing with RF options after Choo unless a guy like Chiz or Santana gets moved there...

AC....been very inconsistent as an Indian. Good 2007, demoted to AAA in 2008, great 2009, injury/bad 2010, then a power breakout in 2011 (though OBP was very disappointing). Again, Tribe really has no SS options behind him for the next 3 years (unless Lindor just absolutely destroys the minors). Hardy agreed to a 3-year extension in the low $20M range....bit steep IMO for Cabrera, but the years seems right.

Masterson....love the guy and was not surprised at all with his 2011 season. Actually think he can and will be better. I don't know if the Tribe will be quite as confident though....probably smart to wait a year before offering a deal, though if you can get him to sign a 3 year deal with a few options (in the mold of a Carmona or Shields deal), I say go for it.


And to me, the one that the Tribe REALLY needs to go after hard is Carlos Santana. One thing that I think got overlooked some by people in the new CBA is the fact that Super Two status got upgraded from 17% to 22% of 2-3 year service guys. Carlos Santana will be at 2 years and 117 days after this year....we just saw (as I mentioned in the other thread) 2 years and 122 days being the cutoff recently (which got Raffy Perez an extra year of arby). I think it's actually very likely we could see Santana ending up a Super Two now. Whether the Tribe will admit it, one reason they waited til early June to promote him was to try and avoid Super Two...well, they may not have waited long enough. Even if he doesn't end up a Super Two, I don't see the harm in trying to extend him now. Not like you'd give him a ton in 2013 anyways. But the kid has a bat that will play anywhere on the diamond, even if he does move off catcher he'll be arguably the best player on this team. I know the Grady deal didn't look as good at the end, but really it still worked out for the Tribe, so I see no big risk in trying to get Santana signed long-term.

Thoughts?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby daingean » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:18 pm

If Chiz can prove in ST that he's ready to put up an .800 OPS then he should start at 3B. If he's not ready then yes AAA but if his ST offense shows signs then a 3B platoon w/Hanny & Donald would be good. The extreme ground ball pitching stat is more middle of the infield thing than corner IF (by my experience). It really will come down to what Chiz does unless Donald or Hanny just absolutely take the job out of ST. In the real world, a 3B with an OPS over .800 is definitely worth more than an exceptional fielding 3B with a .700 OPS especially if the 1B can flash the leather (but we really don't know who the 1B is at this point - a good 1B reduces the # of errors by other infielders).
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:28 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Something that hasn't been talked about a lot but I think applies here is extentions to our current group of guys. Tribe has a few guys that arby elgibile and some should/will be looked at as extention candidates.

Obvious two are AC and Choo. Both had some discussions with the Tribe but nothing came of it. Choo is the tough one with Boras as an agent....call me crazy, but think after this past year there's a chance we could get him to go for a 3 year deal this winter (should the Tribe want to that is). It's very rare, but not unheard of for a Boras client to sign an extension into his free agent years. Carlos Pena agreed to an extension with the Rays after a big year and bought out 1 free agent year. Carlos Gonzalez just signed a huge deal as well. Tribe isn't exactly overflowing with RF options after Choo unless a guy like Chiz or Santana gets moved there...

AC....been very inconsistent as an Indian. Good 2007, demoted to AAA in 2008, great 2009, injury/bad 2010, then a power breakout in 2011 (though OBP was very disappointing). Again, Tribe really has no SS options behind him for the next 3 years (unless Lindor just absolutely destroys the minors). Hardy agreed to a 3-year extension in the low $20M range....bit steep IMO for Cabrera, but the years seems right.

Masterson....love the guy and was not surprised at all with his 2011 season. Actually think he can and will be better. I don't know if the Tribe will be quite as confident though....probably smart to wait a year before offering a deal, though if you can get him to sign a 3 year deal with a few options (in the mold of a Carmona or Shields deal), I say go for it.


And to me, the one that the Tribe REALLY needs to go after hard is Carlos Santana. One thing that I think got overlooked some by people in the new CBA is the fact that Super Two status got upgraded from 17% to 22% of 2-3 year service guys. Carlos Santana will be at 2 years and 117 days after this year....we just saw (as I mentioned in the other thread) 2 years and 122 days being the cutoff recently (which got Raffy Perez an extra year of arby). I think it's actually very likely we could see Santana ending up a Super Two now. Whether the Tribe will admit it, one reason they waited til early June to promote him was to try and avoid Super Two...well, they may not have waited long enough. Even if he doesn't end up a Super Two, I don't see the harm in trying to extend him now. Not like you'd give him a ton in 2013 anyways. But the kid has a bat that will play anywhere on the diamond, even if he does move off catcher he'll be arguably the best player on this team. I know the Grady deal didn't look as good at the end, but really it still worked out for the Tribe, so I see no big risk in trying to get Santana signed long-term.

Thoughts?


-Regarding Choo..no question about your reasoning.. Choo did have a poor 2011, primarily due to injuries DUI and whatever else. His agent isn't the easiest to work with, but Choo is the one driving the bus. After the past season and what he should expect in Arbitration, Choo may "DEMAND" that his agent get him some security that you've defined. If I'm reading your verbose verbage correctly,.. it's a two year plus one type deal..

-Regarding Asdrubal.. His value will never be higher than it is right now.. so his "extension" would be motivated more as a reward than security, even though the net is the same. Is Droobs worthy of a 3 year deal ? If he's here.. yes..

-Masterson: This is where we'll disagree.. extend him now.. for as long as the Indians can.. the Matt Moore contract with the Rays without the first three years (instead of 8 years, 5 years) is what the Indians FO should shoot for. If the last two years are club/vested options.. that works too..

Carlos Santana.. same thing as with Masterson... for as long as they can...
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:33 pm

daingean wrote:If Chiz can prove in ST that he's ready to put up an .800 OPS then he should start at 3B. If he's not ready then yes AAA but if his ST offense shows signs then a 3B platoon w/Hanny & Donald would be good. The extreme ground ball pitching stat is more middle of the infield thing than corner IF (by my experience). It really will come down to what Chiz does unless Donald or Hanny just absolutely take the job out of ST. In the real world, a 3B with an OPS over .800 is definitely worth more than an exceptional fielding 3B with a .700 OPS especially if the 1B can flash the leather (but we really don't know who the 1B is at this point - a good 1B reduces the # of errors by other infielders).


There comes a point in time when a player's name is written in ink and left in the lineup. That's where the Indians offense needs to get to. If Manny can write in the names Chiz at 3B, Droobs at SS, Kipnis at 2B, LaPorta at 1B, Santana at C..Travis Hafner at DH.. Grady Sizemore in CF.. Shin-soo Choo in RF.. Michael Brantley in LF.. 130 - 140 times or more in 2012 or, essentially, everyday, that would be a good thing.. Stability in the lineup is he hallmark winning clubs.. The Jacob's Field Era Indians had it.. and they didn't do too bad...Maybe this group, with a little bit of luck.. and a LOT of health can do the same thing..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:If Chiz can prove in ST that he's ready to put up an .800 OPS then he should start at 3B. If he's not ready then yes AAA but if his ST offense shows signs then a 3B platoon w/Hanny & Donald would be good. The extreme ground ball pitching stat is more middle of the infield thing than corner IF (by my experience). It really will come down to what Chiz does unless Donald or Hanny just absolutely take the job out of ST. In the real world, a 3B with an OPS over .800 is definitely worth more than an exceptional fielding 3B with a .700 OPS especially if the 1B can flash the leather (but we really don't know who the 1B is at this point - a good 1B reduces the # of errors by other infielders).


There comes a point in time when a player's name is written in ink and left in the lineup. That's where the Indians offense needs to get to. If Manny can write in the names Chiz at 3B, Droobs at SS, Kipnis at 2B, LaPorta at 1B, Santana at C..Travis Hafner at DH.. Grady Sizemore in CF.. Shin-soo Choo in RF.. Michael Brantley in LF.. 130 - 140 times or more in 2012 or, essentially, everyday, that would be a good thing.. Stability in the lineup is he hallmark winning clubs.. The Jacob's Field Era Indians had it.. and they didn't do too bad...Maybe this group, with a little bit of luck.. and a LOT of health can do the same thing..


When we put him in the lineup and left him, Shelly Duncan delivered. If the season started tomorrow, I would have him in there....probably at the expense of LaPorta and not Brantley.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:26 pm

Chiefroy wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
daingean wrote:If Chiz can prove in ST that he's ready to put up an .800 OPS then he should start at 3B. If he's not ready then yes AAA but if his ST offense shows signs then a 3B platoon w/Hanny & Donald would be good. The extreme ground ball pitching stat is more middle of the infield thing than corner IF (by my experience). It really will come down to what Chiz does unless Donald or Hanny just absolutely take the job out of ST. In the real world, a 3B with an OPS over .800 is definitely worth more than an exceptional fielding 3B with a .700 OPS especially if the 1B can flash the leather (but we really don't know who the 1B is at this point - a good 1B reduces the # of errors by other infielders).


There comes a point in time when a player's name is written in ink and left in the lineup. That's where the Indians offense needs to get to. If Manny can write in the names Chiz at 3B, Droobs at SS, Kipnis at 2B, LaPorta at 1B, Santana at C..Travis Hafner at DH.. Grady Sizemore in CF.. Shin-soo Choo in RF.. Michael Brantley in LF.. 130 - 140 times or more in 2012 or, essentially, everyday, that would be a good thing.. Stability in the lineup is he hallmark winning clubs.. The Jacob's Field Era Indians had it.. and they didn't do too bad...Maybe this group, with a little bit of luck.. and a LOT of health can do the same thing..


When we put him in the lineup and left him, Shelly Duncan delivered. If the season started tomorrow, I would have him in there....probably at the expense of LaPorta and not Brantley.


If Shelly Duncan can handle the chores of an everyday first baseman defensively.. then he would deserve to have the spot.. History says.. he can't.. Duncan is a good player.. off the bench.. pinch hitting.. filling in in multiple spots... and right handed.. A good guy to have on the club..
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:28 pm

Duncan is a good role player but not an everyday guy. If Duncan is in there everyday the Tribe is in trouble.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:29 pm

G'son, your post was about where the offense needs to get to. Offensively, Duncan carried this team in September and if the season started tomorrow, Duncan would deserve to be in the lineup.

And yes, we might be in trouble if he was in there everyday, but right NOW, the other options (LaPorta/Brantley/whoever) are even less exciting. Tomorrow, I'm playing the guy who slugged .602 and hit 7 HRs the last month when he got the chance to play everyday. I don't bench him for doing that.

And heck, he even had the best half-inning of defense of any of our OF'ers last season. I'm aboard the Duncan train until we sign Beltran or Cuddyer or trade for McCutchen. :clapping:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:44 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Duncan is a good role player but not an everyday guy. If Duncan is in there everyday the Tribe is in trouble.


I'm with you 110%.

Karim Garcia all over again.

Had actually already started writing that for the notebook this weekend, but have to now!
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:18 am

Chiefroy wrote:G'son, your post was about where the offense needs to get to. Offensively, Duncan carried this team in September and if the season started tomorrow, Duncan would deserve to be in the lineup.

And yes, we might be in trouble if he was in there everyday, but right NOW, the other options (LaPorta/Brantley/whoever) are even less exciting. Tomorrow, I'm playing the guy who slugged .602 and hit 7 HRs the last month when he got the chance to play everyday. I don't bench him for doing that.

And heck, he even had the best half-inning of defense of any of our OF'ers last season. I'm aboard the Duncan train until we sign Beltran or Cuddyer or trade for McCutchen. :clapping:


-No question Duncan played fairly well in the month of September and provided team leadership in all respects, but, let's not go off the deep end about Shelley Duncan and what he is. The Duncan Clan, including Shelly, has roots in baseball that go back for decades. Shelley is a 33 year old baseball player that can be counted on for the role he's been placed in. As a role player, his 'weaknesses' are somewhat hidden. As an everyday player, those deficiencies have been exposed and will be if the Indians make the mistake of giving Shelley an every day spot..

-The best half inning of defense.. that is, the twisting and turning and the ball finding his glove, was great drama for TV. Please don't confuse that drama with what it really was.. Shelley took the wrong paths to the balls and was fortunate to have the baseball find his glove..

-You've sentenced yourself to the perpetuity of being on the Duncan Train for life, I'm afraid. None of those guys, Beltran, Cuddyer or McCutchen are coming here..

:drinks:
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby Chiefroy » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:47 pm

I don't care if Duncan closes his eyes when the ball is hit his way, the fact is he MADE the catches. And they weren't routine pop-ups, but up-against-the-wall leaping grabs. Does this make him a good defender? No. Does this mean he has good range? No. But according to ESPN stats, Duncan has a total of 1 left field errors in 574.1 innings. If he gets to it, he catches it.

Will playing him everyday expose him as a weak defender and a mediocre bat? Probably. But where has playing LaPorta and Brantley everyday gotten us? What have they done to deserve their names "written in ink" in the lineup? Both of these guys have had more major league ABs than Duncan and what have they done with the opportunities? What did Duncan do?

I'm not writing Duncan's name in ink, but I damn sure ain't giving Brantley and LaPorta anymore free passes. When Santana catches or DHes, we'll need another 1st baseman. Maybe we stick Hannahan there if he's not at 3rd. But we need some RH power bats. If our only options are Brantley, LaPorta, and Duncan, I'm using Brantley/Duncan or LaPorta/Duncan at LF/1B or 1B/LF or whatever. I think they all 3 suck and we'd better be adding some help, but right NOW, Duncan earned playing time and would be on my card....in pencil.....until he fucks up enough. Then I give another AAAA bum another chance.

And it looks like his name is Aaron Cunningham. :s_bored
Last edited by Chiefroy on Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:12 pm

The tribe announced the signings of Felix Pie-OF and Jose Lopez-INF to minor league deals.

The tribe also acq. Aaron Cunningham-OF from the Padres for Cory Burns-RP.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:39 pm

The Indians have DFA Josh Judy-RP to make room for Aaron Cunningham on the 40 man roster.

I'm a bit unsure but doesn't the Tribe have a 10 day window to possibly trade Judy?
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:31 am

I actually like the Cunningham trade. Cunningham is not an impact player but after watching him for two years I think there is a useful player there. I would not be too quick to judge him on his ML stats in Oakland and San Diego. He is athletic, runs well and has a decent arm. First OF we have on the roster that throws well enough to platoon with Choo or replace him defensively. Not nearly Choo's arm but a better defender IMO. I do believe his hitting will improve, especially with the change of scenery. Certainly not the answer to 1B problem but a likely add to the ML roster in 2012 from what I see so far.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:00 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:The Indians have DFA Josh Judy-RP to make room for Aaron Cunningham on the 40 man roster.

I'm a bit unsure but doesn't the Tribe have a 10 day window to possibly trade Judy?


This would be the first time DFA, so if he clears waivers, he must accept assignment back to the Indians minor leagues system, probably to C-Bus.
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Re: Indians offseason moves

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:01 am

Honestly, it creates a logjam of sorts w/ Cunningham out of options... Really the roster spots come down to Duncan, LaPorta, Cunningham for the last few spots on the 25.

Personally, I'd rather had Cory Burns than Josh Judy. Judy is a decent pitcher but the Tribe still has tremendous depth there even after moving both Burns and Jones this offseason.

As for the Pie and Lopez signings I believe both probably have an opt out. Lopez does intrigue me a bit bc of his RH power the guy has been an AllStar. He's a low risk signing with some versatility but needs a change of approach at the plate.

What it comes down to is several guys vying for a handful of positions.
(Duncan, LaPorta, Cunningham, Lopez, Pie, Carrera, Neal).
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