Browns Thread 2011

[Edible14]

Since there doesn't seem to be enough posting to warrant each individual game thread...

So, I noticed during the Indy game that at one point Hillis had 22 rushes for only 58 yards. Of course, he would then reel off the 24-yd TD run and get up to 94 on the day on 27 rushes. But he had an awful lot of 0-1-or 2 yard rushes (12 by my count). Rushes that are really unproductive and don't do much for the offense.

Hardesty seems to just gash it every time he gets an opening (read: isn't being hit in the backfield by rushers). So after these first three games, I'm legitimately wondering if Hardesty isn't the better back. Certainly he needs to be mixed in quite a bit more than he was against Indy.

But a big problem right now is the o-line, especially when the Browns are running the ball. That stretch play looks awful at times. Perhaps that's on Colt to some degree (he needs to see that coming, and change up the play). It's also true that McCoy was under heavy pressure all game from a Miami team that, truth be told, shouldn't be that good at rushing the passer. Right tackle continues to be a big weak spot for the team.

On the positive side, the defense. The secondary continues to look great. Haden is a lockdown corner. Patterson is a great find. Adams and Ward continue to do their thing. Gocong, Sheard, Taylor and Rubin have been great at getting to the QB.

Good win, it's good to be leading the division!

[GeronimoSon]

One impressive drive by the Raiders and the Browns.. the browns scoring drive was just a wee bit less impressive.. Several breakdowns in the special teams, two near punt blocks.. one TD on a return.. and Colt McCoy ALMOST gave it up for a late score.. It's a miracle the Browns are still in this game.. it could have been a WHOLE lot uglier..

and there's still a half to play...

And 10 points later.. a long field goal by Janikowski, damn can that guy kick.. and another boneheaded play by the special teams on a 53 yd FG try/fake/touchdown.. leaves the Browns down three scores..

HELLO?.. is MR HILLIS in the building?. has anyone seen MR HILLIS?.. The Browns are getting their collective teeth kicked in on the lines of scrimmage.. and there's still plenty of game to play...

[jellis]

McCoy looks awful, he seems to be eric Zeier number 2, mid round QB who is short and white and we over hype. I think we will pick in the 8-12 range and have to consider RG III, as for the second first we learned today Patterson is a nickle corner nothing more and Brown is just about dead. I hope they look corner as well.

Maybe I am jumping the gun but in ESPNs bad qb league, every week McCoy is in the top 5 and at one point today he had completed less than 40% of his passes with a 3.3 yards per attempt that is horrid.

Now Cribbs is asking to be taken off the offense to specialize in special teams where he can have the biggest impact, Shurmer is losing this team, and has pissed off his fan base. Hillis is number one in yards after contact in the whole NFL instead we play Hardesty who makes Bryalon Edwards look like a sure handed receiver

[A.Zajac]

McCoy looks awful, he seems to be eric Zeier number 2, mid round QB who is short and white and we over hype. I think we will pick in the 8-12 range and have to consider RG III, as for the second first we learned today Patterson is a nickle corner nothing more and Brown is just about dead. I hope they look corner as well.

Maybe I am jumping the gun but in ESPNs bad qb league, every week McCoy is in the top 5 and at one point today he had completed less than 40% of his passes with a 3.3 yards per attempt that is horrid.

Now Cribbs is asking to be taken off the offense to specialize in special teams where he can have the biggest impact, Shurmer is losing this team, and has pissed off his fan base. Hillis is number one in yards after contact in the whole NFL instead we play Hardesty who makes Bryalon Edwards look like a sure handed receiver

+1

[TonyIBI]

I haven't been reading or following the Browns news much, but have watched all the games....but what in the world is going on with Hillis? Why are they not giving him the freaking ball?

[GeronimoSon]

I haven't been reading or following the Browns news much, but have watched all the games....but what in the world is going on with Hillis? Why are they not giving him the freaking ball?

Against the Dolphins.. he sat out with strep.. it was reported by the IDIOT MEDIA that is was due to a contract issue..
Against the Titans.. he had 20-25 touches.. and performed well.. in a loss
Against the Raiders.. he tweaked his hammy early in the first quarter, so the Browns sat him the rest of the game

What is going on is he's playing when healthy and given touches.. and playing well..

[Hermie13]

I haven't been reading or following the Browns news much, but have watched all the games....but what in the world is going on with Hillis? Why are they not giving him the freaking ball?

Against the Dolphins.. he sat out with strep.. it was reported by the IDIOT MEDIA that is was due to a contract issue..
Against the Titans.. he had 20-25 touches.. and performed well.. in a loss
Against the Raiders.. he tweaked his hammy early in the first quarter, so the Browns sat him the rest of the game

What is going on is he's playing when healthy and given touches.. and playing well..

Hillis has publicly said his agent advised him not to play in the Dolphins game. So the 'idiot media' was probably right on the contract issue being a bigger thing than strep.


Personally think part of the problem is that Shurmur needs to get an OC in here. It's hard enough being a first year head coach without pulling double duty. Let someone with a similar philosophy come in and be the OC and work on incorporating Hillis better into the offense.

[GeronimoSon]

Seems like history continues to repeat it self in the never ending (or winning) saga of the Cleveland Browns..

Who was the last coach who couldn't call his own plays.. and eventually got fired (like all Browns coaches do) because of it ?..there have been just so many in the last 12 years.. four?. five?..Seattle invades the North Coast today.. a beautiful sunny day is forecast.. at least it won't rain on the Browns as they go down to their third straight loss.. It will be Pat Shurmur's fault because he didn't call the right plays..

[GeronimoSon]

After the finish of the first quarter.. no score..

Well. how about THAT !! (the media won't have to change their headlines for next week.. blaming the head coach for calling the wrong play, being outscored 34-3 in the first quarter..yada yada.... ) The hit on Colt was a penalty.. When the browns commit to running the ball.. then running it some more.. then they move the ball..

Onto the second quarter...well.. wasn't that a thing of beauty.. yawn <== word that best describes what the browns and seachickens accomplished during the ultra dull quarter of poorly played/executed football.. At the half, maybe the really creative part of the playbook will be open, then, Pat Shurmur can call the right plays..

what?.. that part of the playbook is missing?... oops.

[TonyIBI]

Abomination of an offense.

And the Colt McCoy Era is quickly fading.

You see a guy like Curtis Painter have all the talent around him and he can't do anything, the same talent that Peyton Manning used. Or you see a guy like Jimmy Clausen last year with the Panthers who can't do anything....then Cam Newton with the same team and players is just being a difference maker.

Sometimes it IS the quarterback. The guy who raised the level of the talent around him. That's the difference between a difference maker and a role/journeyman QB. I just don't see it with Colt. Great kid and I wish him well.....but I think we are seeing he is just not the "guy" you build an offense around or even have run a playoff caliber offense.

[daingean]

Abomination of an offense.

And the Colt McCoy Era is quickly fading.

You see a guy like Curtis Painter have all the talent around him and he can't do anything, the same talent that Peyton Manning used. Or you see a guy like Jimmy Clausen last year with the Panthers who can't do anything....then Cam Newton with the same team and players is just being a difference maker.

Sometimes it IS the quarterback. The guy who raised the level of the talent around him. That's the difference between a difference maker and a role/journeyman QB. I just don't see it with Colt. Great kid and I wish him well.....but I think we are seeing he is just not the "guy" you build an offense around or even have run a playoff caliber offense.

I used to be a huge Browns fan till they moved now I really wouldn't consider myself a fan of any team but I do kinda read up and watch them. It may be that Colt isn't the answer but a transition to the West Coast is usually a multi-year transition and then there is the issue with no camp. I'm not sure comparing him to other QB's that have had success is really a good gauge in this case. Also there really isn't a deep threat with the receiving corps and basically lots of #3 receivers.

[GeronimoSon]

Abomination of an offense.

And the Colt McCoy Era is quickly fading.

You see a guy like Curtis Painter have all the talent around him and he can't do anything, the same talent that Peyton Manning used. Or you see a guy like Jimmy Clausen last year with the Panthers who can't do anything....then Cam Newton with the same team and players is just being a difference maker.

Sometimes it IS the quarterback. The guy who raised the level of the talent around him. That's the difference between a difference maker and a role/journeyman QB. I just don't see it with Colt. Great kid and I wish him well.....but I think we are seeing he is just not the "guy" you build an offense around or even have run a playoff caliber offense.

WHAT Playoffs? ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwq7BYOn ... re=related )

[Hermie13]

Abomination of an offense.

And the Colt McCoy Era is quickly fading.

You see a guy like Curtis Painter have all the talent around him and he can't do anything, the same talent that Peyton Manning used. Or you see a guy like Jimmy Clausen last year with the Panthers who can't do anything....then Cam Newton with the same team and players is just being a difference maker.

Sometimes it IS the quarterback. The guy who raised the level of the talent around him. That's the difference between a difference maker and a role/journeyman QB. I just don't see it with Colt. Great kid and I wish him well.....but I think we are seeing he is just not the "guy" you build an offense around or even have run a playoff caliber offense.

Yeah disagree here some. While I don't think Colt is going to be Hall of Famer, he needs help before you can right him off. Their are college offenses with more talent right now than the Browns. Hardesty....hey, decent game (no fumbles) but 2.9 yards per carry is not going to cut it. No WRs to throw too (ok, Little is decent), average TEs, a terrible OL outside of Thomas and Mack, who struggled but hey, guy played thru a near burst appendix, i'll give him some leeway.

Give Colt a better OL and a true #1 WR....and I see no reason he can't be a better version of Jeff Garcia. Hell, that's make him the best Browns QB in 30 years (better than Bernie).

Don't think the Brees comps are fair (yeah both are short, but different QBs)...but Brees did struggle a LOT early. Very few rookie/near rookie QBs can raise an offense, especially one as terrible as this, right away.


And speaking of Garcia.....guy I would like to see the Browns look at for their OC next year, Greg Knapp. Currently the Houston Texans QB coach (so would be a promotion even if he doesn't get to call plays). He worked with Garcia for 3 years in SF....where Garcia was a 3 time pro-bowler, throwing for 3500+ yards.


Definitely a pathetic offensive performance (on both sides). Sad thing is, not the worst I've seen at the Stadium (that Browns-Bengals game a few years ago when Ken Dorsey started is still the worst).

[jellis]

Abomination of an offense.

And the Colt McCoy Era is quickly fading.

You see a guy like Curtis Painter have all the talent around him and he can't do anything, the same talent that Peyton Manning used. Or you see a guy like Jimmy Clausen last year with the Panthers who can't do anything....then Cam Newton with the same team and players is just being a difference maker.

Sometimes it IS the quarterback. The guy who raised the level of the talent around him. That's the difference between a difference maker and a role/journeyman QB. I just don't see it with Colt. Great kid and I wish him well.....but I think we are seeing he is just not the "guy" you build an offense around or even have run a playoff caliber offense.

Yeah disagree here some. While I don't think Colt is going to be Hall of Famer, he needs help before you can right him off. Their are college offenses with more talent right now than the Browns. Hardesty....hey, decent game (no fumbles) but 2.9 yards per carry is not going to cut it. No WRs to throw too (ok, Little is decent), average TEs, a terrible OL outside of Thomas and Mack, who struggled but hey, guy played thru a near burst appendix, i'll give him some leeway.

Give Colt a better OL and a true #1 WR....and I see no reason he can't be a better version of Jeff Garcia. Hell, that's make him the best Browns QB in 30 years (better than Bernie).

Don't think the Brees comps are fair (yeah both are short, but different QBs)...but Brees did struggle a LOT early. Very few rookie/near rookie QBs can raise an offense, especially one as terrible as this, right away.


And speaking of Garcia.....guy I would like to see the Browns look at for their OC next year, Greg Knapp. Currently the Houston Texans QB coach (so would be a promotion even if he doesn't get to call plays). He worked with Garcia for 3 years in SF....where Garcia was a 3 time pro-bowler, throwing for 3500+ yards.


Definitely a pathetic offensive performance (on both sides). Sad thing is, not the worst I've seen at the Stadium (that Browns-Bengals game a few years ago when Ken Dorsey started is still the worst).

I think McCoy's best outcome is a different Purdue QB, hes Orton. He can be an average QB, but it is obviously something hugely wrong mentally as he is missing on a ton of his throws. He is not feeling the bltiz and even when he has time misses his target. I am all for RG III in this draft, and I hope to god we resign Hillis, only exciting player these browns have had in the past 5 years offensively.

[Hermie13]

I think McCoy's best outcome is a different Purdue QB, hes Orton. He can be an average QB, but it is obviously something hugely wrong mentally as he is missing on a ton of his throws. He is not feeling the bltiz and even when he has time misses his target. I am all for RG III in this draft, and I hope to god we resign Hillis, only exciting player these browns have had in the past 5 years offensively.

Meh...on Hillis. Yeah he had a very good year last year, but the guy has been injury prone his entire career. I hope we re-sign him, but think brining back a guy like Jackson with how he's playing is a bigger key.

G3 would be a nice add, and with how Newton has played should get a lot of attention (then again, VY was great his rookie year, how's that gone?). He's short too though, so may keep him down some (which would help the Browns).

I still think people are being WAY too hard on Colt. Not sold on him either as a franchise guy, and I could definitely see him become like Orton....but best outcome? eek, tough crowd. Being at that game yesterday....a healthy Peyton Manning at QB, we maybe score 1 TD. This offense is just all-around pathetic.

[jellis]

I think McCoy's best outcome is a different Purdue QB, hes Orton. He can be an average QB, but it is obviously something hugely wrong mentally as he is missing on a ton of his throws. He is not feeling the bltiz and even when he has time misses his target. I am all for RG III in this draft, and I hope to god we resign Hillis, only exciting player these browns have had in the past 5 years offensively.

Meh...on Hillis. Yeah he had a very good year last year, but the guy has been injury prone his entire career. I hope we re-sign him, but think brining back a guy like Jackson with how he's playing is a bigger key.

G3 would be a nice add, and with how Newton has played should get a lot of attention (then again, VY was great his rookie year, how's that gone?). He's short too though, so may keep him down some (which would help the Browns).

I still think people are being WAY too hard on Colt. Not sold on him either as a franchise guy, and I could definitely see him become like Orton....but best outcome? eek, tough crowd. Being at that game yesterday....a healthy Peyton Manning at QB, we maybe score 1 TD. This offense is just all-around pathetic.

I worded it badly, I think he is Orton, he could be better but I meant to say that is what I think his most typical outcome is. Team might not have looked great, but McCoys lack of accuracy made it worse, watching the colts has made me realize the difference a good qb who can hit is WR in stride can do. McCoy accuracy is terrible right now and he is not hitting anyone in stride which leads to no YAC

[daingean]

I worded it badly, I think he is Orton, he could be better but I meant to say that is what I think his most typical outcome is. Team might not have looked great, but McCoys lack of accuracy made it worse, watching the colts has made me realize the difference a good qb who can hit is WR in stride can do. McCoy accuracy is terrible right now and he is not hitting anyone in stride which leads to no YAC

Certainly not sold on Colt but not entirely ready to give up on him either. The WCO is a thinking QB's game. This team is in the first year of this WCO and they didn't have any off season workouts which really spells doom for this. I think with all the decisions that need to be made + the speed of the game are factors in Colt's play. As he gets comfortable in the O and the team gets comfortable and they as an offense adjust to the concepts - the game will slow down from a decision making point. It was really a bad off season to change coaches and offense but then getting lucky with timing and the Browns haven't been used in the same sentence since the 1960's.

[Hermie13]

I worded it badly, I think he is Orton, he could be better but I meant to say that is what I think his most typical outcome is. Team might not have looked great, but McCoys lack of accuracy made it worse, watching the colts has made me realize the difference a good qb who can hit is WR in stride can do. McCoy accuracy is terrible right now and he is not hitting anyone in stride which leads to no YAC

Ok, fair enough then on the Orton thing. I can see that, but still think you're selling him a bit short. So far though, agree, hasn't shown much to make you think otherwise.

Agree on what you're saying too.....but really, what young QB would do better here now? Pretty much anything that could be stacked against Colt this year has been:

New HC (and I guess OC too) and new offensive scheme
Lost one of the better LGs in football to injury.
Stuck with a carrosel of players on the right-side of the OL.
No good WRs (ok, Little looks alright).
A long lockout preventing him from learning the new offense.
No running game: his starting RB this weekend averaged less than 3 yards a carry....and people were excited about it.

Hell, one of the only things he had going for him heading into the year was Hillis....and he has been a non-factor.


It's sad that our best WR is arguably Gregg Little....a rookie who had no rookie camp to get ready due to the lockout AND missed all of last season due to being suspended with the UNC guys. Not to mention he's only been a WR for like 2-3 years (was a RB when he first got to UNC). I hate drafting WRs early (especially top 10) and I loved the tradedown with Atlanta (and still do)....but we pretty much have to draft a WR round 1 next year with 2 picks. That or try and steal a guy like Fitzgerald or some #1 WR in a trade/free agency this winter. Guy like Fullmer or Floyd with Atlanta's pick could work.

[jellis]

I worded it badly, I think he is Orton, he could be better but I meant to say that is what I think his most typical outcome is. Team might not have looked great, but McCoys lack of accuracy made it worse, watching the colts has made me realize the difference a good qb who can hit is WR in stride can do. McCoy accuracy is terrible right now and he is not hitting anyone in stride which leads to no YAC

Ok, fair enough then on the Orton thing. I can see that, but still think you're selling him a bit short. So far though, agree, hasn't shown much to make you think otherwise.

Agree on what you're saying too.....but really, what young QB would do better here now? Pretty much anything that could be stacked against Colt this year has been:

New HC (and I guess OC too) and new offensive scheme
Lost one of the better LGs in football to injury.
Stuck with a carrosel of players on the right-side of the OL.
No good WRs (ok, Little looks alright).
A long lockout preventing him from learning the new offense.
No running game: his starting RB this weekend averaged less than 3 yards a carry....and people were excited about it.

Hell, one of the only things he had going for him heading into the year was Hillis....and he has been a non-factor.


It's sad that our best WR is arguably Gregg Little....a rookie who had no rookie camp to get ready due to the lockout AND missed all of last season due to being suspended with the UNC guys. Not to mention he's only been a WR for like 2-3 years (was a RB when he first got to UNC). I hate drafting WRs early (especially top 10) and I loved the tradedown with Atlanta (and still do)....but we pretty much have to draft a WR round 1 next year with 2 picks. That or try and steal a guy like Fitzgerald or some #1 WR in a trade/free agency this winter. Guy like Fullmer or Floyd with Atlanta's pick could work.

Looking at projections for guys around who could be there were those picks happen and I think you take RG III and then Kirkpatrick. Then maybe broyles in round 2

[Hermie13]

Looking at projections for guys around who could be there were those picks happen and I think you take RG III and then Kirkpatrick. Then maybe broyles in round 2

Not that high on RG as you....short so very likely drops (as we've seen with most short QBs of late). Listed at 6'2 some places, but several others at only 6'1...which means he's probably only 6'1ish. That's really going to hurt him heading into the draft unless he just blows away scouts. Does look like a great fit for the WCO though (where several under 6'3 guys have had success)

Wouldn't hate Kirpatrick at all, but CB shouldn't be that high on the list of 1st round needs. DE is a way bigger need....though BPA obviously could come into play, and Kirkpatrick would likely be it with our 2nd pick (very likely could go before our 1st pick). If Broyles is there round 2 I'd love him...but not sure he's a #1. More a complimentary guy like Little. Obviously lots of time before the draft, but WR, DE, and RT still look like our top 3 needs (unless Hillis and/or Jackson leave).

Early sleeper pick of sorts for me is Janoris Jenkins. Kid has top 10 talent but a 7th round head. Played with Haden at Florida and some said he was the better CB in that secondary. If he drops to the 2nd round due to character concerns...I'd take a shot. Taylor, Sheard, and Little all had some character issues and didn't stop the Browns last year.

[jellis]

Looking at projections for guys around who could be there were those picks happen and I think you take RG III and then Kirkpatrick. Then maybe broyles in round 2

Not that high on RG as you....short so very likely drops (as we've seen with most short QBs of late). Listed at 6'2 some places, but several others at only 6'1...which means he's probably only 6'1ish. That's really going to hurt him heading into the draft unless he just blows away scouts. Does look like a great fit for the WCO though (where several under 6'3 guys have had success)

Wouldn't hate Kirpatrick at all, but CB shouldn't be that high on the list of 1st round needs. DE is a way bigger need....though BPA obviously could come into play, and Kirkpatrick would likely be it with our 2nd pick (very likely could go before our 1st pick). If Broyles is there round 2 I'd love him...but not sure he's a #1. More a complimentary guy like Little. Obviously lots of time before the draft, but WR, DE, and RT still look like our top 3 needs (unless Hillis and/or Jackson leave).

Early sleeper pick of sorts for me is Janoris Jenkins. Kid has top 10 talent but a 7th round head. Played with Haden at Florida and some said he was the better CB in that secondary. If he drops to the 2nd round due to character concerns...I'd take a shot. Taylor, Sheard, and Little all had some character issues and didn't stop the Browns last year.

I agree Jenkins in round 2 is a steal, I guess we differ on needs. My needs for this team in order QB, RT, WR,CB. I think Mitchell is a solid but not great end. If anything late in the draft look for a pass rusher type, but not a huge need. I will admit I am a big RG guy, he is the 3rd QB on my board and really close on Jones. I think he is ideal for the WCO, size is the only negative. Kirkpatrick could be gone, and if he is then to me you look at talent and need. Sadly I don't see a good RT for any of our picks unless you really like Reiff. Of course this gets real interesting, if STL ends up with the first pick, cause the Browns have to be the favorite to trade for Luck, with the two firsts this year and the fact that STL is the one team that would have to trade the pick. I know cincy and NE have two firsts as well, but both seem rather set at QB

[Edible14]

Ugh... reading WFNY right now is painful. So. Much. Negativity

Not that it's not warranted. I just find it hard to blame Colt McCoy and Pat Shurmur right now, though. I'm one of those people that said Mangini shouldn't have been fired, and I'd say we'd be better off with him at the helm right now. You can't live in the past, though. Just as I preached with Mangini... patience is needed. You have to realize that this team is just not very good right now for a number of reasons. When the team hired Shurmur, you had to know that this team was taking some steps back...

The offensive line is BAD. Like, possibly the worst in the NFL. You can see it just by looking at what a running play looks like when the Browns run it vs. what other NFL teams look like. When the Browns run it, they get almost NO push, and I think the majority of run plays have featured our running backs having to dodge tacklers behind the line of scrimmage. When I see other teams run the ball, I see linemen getting a push 3-5 yards downfield, with the running back getting a head of steam, encountering tacklers 2-4 yards after the line of scrimmage.

This extends to the passing game. It's not just that McCoy doesn't get a lot of time, it's that the Browns frequently have to leave more people in to block. I don't know how many plays I've seen where McCoy finally gets some time, but he's only looking at 2 or 3 options downfield because the only way he GETS time is to have 7 guys block. So the playcalling is understandably limited.

Couple that with the wide receivers not being good. They lead the league in drops (24 this year so far... they had 22 ALL OF LAST YEAR!). Nobody is a downfield threat, not that McCoy can have enough time to throw deep routes anyway. So the opposing safeties can creep in to stop the run and blow up short plays.

Take all of that, and you can see why playcalling for these guys is hard. And it's also why I don't blame McCoy. He's trying to operate without a decent run game, without a decent O-line, without good targets and all while trying to learn a new system. Despite all of that, he actually manages to put up decent games, statistically. This last game, he threw 22/34, 241 yds, 1 TD/1 INT. That's actually pretty good, especially compared to how it looked. But short passes (which is the signature of the west coast offense) aren't going to get a lot of first downs when your running backs can only get 1-2 yards on first and second down.

I'll say this, though.

The defense is better than I expected. I loved our D last year with Ryan, and I thought the change of systems would be disastrous. Instead, our D has played admirably, and I can respect that they'll get better. They're the reason we're 3-4, and not winless like the Dolphins or Colts. At the start of the season, I was very negative about this team. I thought 3-4 wins would be about right. They're a big reason this team is doing better than I thought.

By the same token, the special teams has taken a huge step back. The team decided keeping 4 roster spots for special teams specialists - Costanzo, Ventrone, Trusnik and Sorensen - was a bad idea, and they got rid of Sealy as ST coach. The results have been pretty dramatic. Blocked field goals, punts and kicks being run back on us, and Cribbs has been unable to break anything all year.

[daingean]

Ugh... reading WFNY right now is painful. So. Much. Negativity

Not that it's not warranted. I just find it hard to blame Colt McCoy and Pat Shurmur right now, though. I'm one of those people that said Mangini shouldn't have been fired, and I'd say we'd be better off with him at the helm right now. You can't live in the past, though. Just as I preached with Mangini... patience is needed. You have to realize that this team is just not very good right now for a number of reasons. When the team hired Shurmur, you had to know that this team was taking some steps back...

The offensive line is BAD. Like, possibly the worst in the NFL. You can see it just by looking at what a running play looks like when the Browns run it vs. what other NFL teams look like. When the Browns run it, they get almost NO push, and I think the majority of run plays have featured our running backs having to dodge tacklers behind the line of scrimmage. When I see other teams run the ball, I see linemen getting a push 3-5 yards downfield, with the running back getting a head of steam, encountering tacklers 2-4 yards after the line of scrimmage.

This extends to the passing game. It's not just that McCoy doesn't get a lot of time, it's that the Browns frequently have to leave more people in to block. I don't know how many plays I've seen where McCoy finally gets some time, but he's only looking at 2 or 3 options downfield because the only way he GETS time is to have 7 guys block. So the playcalling is understandably limited.

Couple that with the wide receivers not being good. They lead the league in drops (24 this year so far... they had 22 ALL OF LAST YEAR!). Nobody is a downfield threat, not that McCoy can have enough time to throw deep routes anyway. So the opposing safeties can creep in to stop the run and blow up short plays.

Take all of that, and you can see why playcalling for these guys is hard. And it's also why I don't blame McCoy. He's trying to operate without a decent run game, without a decent O-line, without good targets and all while trying to learn a new system. Despite all of that, he actually manages to put up decent games, statistically. This last game, he threw 22/34, 241 yds, 1 TD/1 INT. That's actually pretty good, especially compared to how it looked. But short passes (which is the signature of the west coast offense) aren't going to get a lot of first downs when your running backs can only get 1-2 yards on first and second down.

I'll say this, though.

The defense is better than I expected. I loved our D last year with Ryan, and I thought the change of systems would be disastrous. Instead, our D has played admirably, and I can respect that they'll get better. They're the reason we're 3-4, and not winless like the Dolphins or Colts. At the start of the season, I was very negative about this team. I thought 3-4 wins would be about right. They're a big reason this team is doing better than I thought.

By the same token, the special teams has taken a huge step back. The team decided keeping 4 roster spots for special teams specialists - Costanzo, Ventrone, Trusnik and Sorensen - was a bad idea, and they got rid of Sealy as ST coach. The results have been pretty dramatic. Blocked field goals, punts and kicks being run back on us, and Cribbs has been unable to break anything all year.

It was just a bad year to have a coaching change and move to the WCO. Without an off season to make the offensive transition, this team is still in Exhibition mode offensively (and probably will continue to be until season's end). There is glimmer of hope though Browns' fans, the heist with Atlanta is leaving the Browns with 2 first rounders (1 should be relatively high) and they can add to the OL and WR corps.

[TonyIBI]

Folks, at best, McCoy is a journeyman QB. He is the QB the Browns played against yesterday: Alex Smith. There is more than enough sample size to see it....and while we should definitely play him the rest of the year for more data it is clear he is not an upper tier QB which is absolutely needed in the NFL today. He is nowhere near a young difference maker like Stafford or Newton. He needs to go into a near-perfect system with tons of talent around him to succeed rather than him being able to raise the level of the talent around him like the great QBs Brees, Rodgers, Brady, etc do.

[jellis]

Folks, at best, McCoy is a journeyman QB. He is the QB the Browns played against yesterday: Alex Smith. There is more than enough sample size to see it....and while we should definitely play him the rest of the year for more data it is clear he is not an upper tier QB which is absolutely needed in the NFL today. He is nowhere near a young difference maker like Stafford or Newton. He needs to go into a near-perfect system with tons of talent around him to succeed rather than him being able to raise the level of the talent around him like the great QBs Brees, Rodgers, Brady, etc do.

I agree, misses his targets way way too much. Our line is actually ok, not great but not awful compraed to many in football. A solid QB would do better, even on most of his completions, McCoy can not hit his WR on target

[Hermie13]

Looking at projections for guys around who could be there were those picks happen and I think you take RG III and then Kirkpatrick. Then maybe broyles in round 2

Not that high on RG as you....short so very likely drops (as we've seen with most short QBs of late). Listed at 6'2 some places, but several others at only 6'1...which means he's probably only 6'1ish. That's really going to hurt him heading into the draft unless he just blows away scouts. Does look like a great fit for the WCO though (where several under 6'3 guys have had success)

Wouldn't hate Kirpatrick at all, but CB shouldn't be that high on the list of 1st round needs. DE is a way bigger need....though BPA obviously could come into play, and Kirkpatrick would likely be it with our 2nd pick (very likely could go before our 1st pick). If Broyles is there round 2 I'd love him...but not sure he's a #1. More a complimentary guy like Little. Obviously lots of time before the draft, but WR, DE, and RT still look like our top 3 needs (unless Hillis and/or Jackson leave).

Early sleeper pick of sorts for me is Janoris Jenkins. Kid has top 10 talent but a 7th round head. Played with Haden at Florida and some said he was the better CB in that secondary. If he drops to the 2nd round due to character concerns...I'd take a shot. Taylor, Sheard, and Little all had some character issues and didn't stop the Browns last year.

I agree Jenkins in round 2 is a steal, I guess we differ on needs. My needs for this team in order QB, RT, WR,CB. I think Mitchell is a solid but not great end. If anything late in the draft look for a pass rusher type, but not a huge need. I will admit I am a big RG guy, he is the 3rd QB on my board and really close on Jones. I think he is ideal for the WCO, size is the only negative. Kirkpatrick could be gone, and if he is then to me you look at talent and need. Sadly I don't see a good RT for any of our picks unless you really like Reiff. Of course this gets real interesting, if STL ends up with the first pick, cause the Browns have to be the favorite to trade for Luck, with the two firsts this year and the fact that STL is the one team that would have to trade the pick. I know cincy and NE have two firsts as well, but both seem rather set at QB

Mitchell is an ok backup, but in Jaruon's 4-3 D you need 2 DEs that can get to the QB. Sheldon Brown is obviously aging but if you had good DEs getting pressure, he would look a lot better (as he has the few times the defense has gotten pressure on the QB). Also, I'm a big Skrine fan, liked him a lot heading into the draft. I think he could surprise. DB is definitely a need...but compared to DE I don't even think they are in the same zip code.

I like Cordy Glenn as a RT. Most like him as a guard though, so guess it's how you feel there. I also like Nate Potter a lot, though more a second day guy.

Will be interesting on a QB....Holmgren never drafted a QB in the 1st round when he was a coach, nor has Heckert really. Granted both had good franchise QBs but not sure they will put all their eggs in one basket on a QB (ie, a big trade up) unless Colt really bombs. Hasn't looked good, but again, he has absolutely nothing work with. Heckert was there when the Eagles drafted Desean Jackson, Mccoy, and Maclin. He knows we need playmakers...and right now, we have none on offense, even when Hillis is in.

[Hermie13]

I agree, misses his targets way way too much. Our line is actually ok, not great but not awful compraed to many in football. A solid QB would do better, even on most of his completions, McCoy can not hit his WR on target

disagree here. Thomas is very good, but even Mack has looked pretty bad at times this year. Losing Steinbach was huge. He makes both Thomas and Mack better. Both have been hurt by it. McCoy's legs have saved the OL several times this year. I agree his accuracy has been an issue though.

[Hermie13]

Folks, at best, McCoy is a journeyman QB. He is the QB the Browns played against yesterday: Alex Smith. There is more than enough sample size to see it....and while we should definitely play him the rest of the year for more data it is clear he is not an upper tier QB which is absolutely needed in the NFL today. He is nowhere near a young difference maker like Stafford or Newton. He needs to go into a near-perfect system with tons of talent around him to succeed rather than him being able to raise the level of the talent around him like the great QBs Brees, Rodgers, Brady, etc do.

You may be right on him being a journeyman (though Alex Smith hasn't journeyed anywhere but San Fran)....but there is absolutely not enough sample size to make a decision on Colt. Brees didn't raise the talent around him the first few years in the league...was it obvious after 10 games that he wasn't the answer? Tom Brady got to sit for a year and Rogers sat for more than a year (both behind potential/future Hall of Famers).

Disagree a bit that you "absolutely need" an upper tier QB in the NFL today. Neither the Jets nor Ravens have one (Flacco and Sanchez are both average at best). Definitely helps though to have one.

[Edible14]

Folks, at best, McCoy is a journeyman QB.

I agree entirely. But since the Browns aren't bad enough to Suck For Luck, I think he'll do for the time being. You don't need a Marino/Manning/Brady to win. There are teams that win with the likes of Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien (I'd argue Eli Manning belongs on that list as well). Even if we wouldn't be super bowl contenders, I would be happy with an average QB that gets us into the playoffs like Joe Flacco.

I agree, misses his targets way way too much. Our line is actually ok, not great but not awful compraed to many in football. A solid QB would do better, even on most of his completions, McCoy can not hit his WR on target

disagree here. Thomas is very good, but even Mack has looked pretty bad at times this year. Losing Steinbach was huge. He makes both Thomas and Mack better. Both have been hurt by it. McCoy's legs have saved the OL several times this year. I agree his accuracy has been an issue though.

Not sure what games you're watching Jellis. McCoy gets very little time to pass, and the running backs are frequently dodging tacklers in the backfield. Even when Hillis was in, he was having to fight just to get 1-2 yards on a lot of plays. That has to be on the line. Though, to be fair, if you're going to give Colt the "learning a new system" excuse, you should probably extend that to the line.

[jellis]

Folks, at best, McCoy is a journeyman QB.

I agree entirely. But since the Browns aren't bad enough to Suck For Luck, I think he'll do for the time being. You don't need a Marino/Manning/Brady to win. There are teams that win with the likes of Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien (I'd argue Eli Manning belongs on that list as well). Even if we wouldn't be super bowl contenders, I would be happy with an average QB that gets us into the playoffs like Joe Flacco.

I agree, misses his targets way way too much. Our line is actually ok, not great but not awful compraed to many in football. A solid QB would do better, even on most of his completions, McCoy can not hit his WR on target

disagree here. Thomas is very good, but even Mack has looked pretty bad at times this year. Losing Steinbach was huge. He makes both Thomas and Mack better. Both have been hurt by it. McCoy's legs have saved the OL several times this year. I agree his accuracy has been an issue though.[/quote

Check the lines in this league, he gets a decent amount of time. Problem is he holds way too long, and has zero feel at all for the blitz. The line is medicore on the whole, compared to many in this league its average. McCoy just does not have it. Hardesty makes too many cuts, Hillis had 2 games to show anything and was decent. The problem is we won't suck enough for a QB, so not sure where you go from here.
Not sure what games you're watching Jellis. McCoy gets very little time to pass, and the running backs are frequently dodging tacklers in the backfield. Even when Hillis was in, he was having to fight just to get 1-2 yards on a lot of plays. That has to be on the line. Though, to be fair, if you're going to give Colt the "learning a new system" excuse, you should probably extend that to the line.

[Edible14]

Check the lines in this league, he gets a decent amount of time. Problem is he holds way too long, and has zero feel at all for the blitz. The line is medicore on the whole, compared to many in this league its average. McCoy just does not have it. Hardesty makes too many cuts, Hillis had 2 games to show anything and was decent. The problem is we won't suck enough for a QB, so not sure where you go from here.

The offensive line for the Browns is tied for 2nd-to-last in rushing yards (3.2 yds/carry, only .1 yds/carry better than the last place Titans). They're tied for 13th in "most sacks allowed" (17, and it's worth noting that 4 teams that have allowed more sacks haven't had their bye week yet and have had more games to compile those numbers) and tied for 6th in most quarterback hits (44).

Worst in the NFL is clearly wrong. I'll say that. But there are holes, and it should be better for a team that was planning on being a primarily run-first, defensive-minded team. Steinbach being out is hurting, but I think some blame can go to Heckert for not addressing it in the off-season. Tony Pashos being option #1 at Right Tackle is just not good enough in my eyes.

Maybe I'm just coming from too pessimistic of a position to begin with. I thought this team would be bad, and I thought McCoy would struggle (though not as much as he has). I didn't really like McCoy when we drafted him, and I've never considered him a franchise QB in the vein of Stafford/Ryan/Manning/Rodgers. With Heckert and Holmgren at the helm, I was expecting this team to be built like their last teams. A solid-if-unspectacular QB (McNabb, Kolb, Hasselbeck) that is surrounded with good line play, a good defense and some good running backs. For that, I reasoned, McCoy would do, and I still think he can perform in that capacity.

[Hermie13]

Check the lines in this league, he gets a decent amount of time. Problem is he holds way too long, and has zero feel at all for the blitz. The line is medicore on the whole, compared to many in this league its average. McCoy just does not have it. Hardesty makes too many cuts, Hillis had 2 games to show anything and was decent. The problem is we won't suck enough for a QB, so not sure where you go from here.

Is this Colt's fault? the WRs fault though? Or both? My money is on both with an emphasis on the WRs.

Check the WR cores in this league....you won't find many (if any) worse than the Browns'. Couple that with a sub-par OL and no running game, and very few if any QBs would perform.

[TonyIBI]

Check the WR cores in this league....you won't find many (if any) worse than the Browns'. Couple that with a sub-par OL and no running game, and very few if any QBs would perform.

I disagree. It's the whole chicken and egg thing. The elite or very good QBs make average players good. What big name receiver has Tom Brady had to throw to? Wes Welker? Hell, he made that guy. He had Randy Moss for a few years but was great before and after Moss. Look at the receiving corps Brees has. Sure, they look good but is it them or the QB? Are any of those guys All Pro? You think Jimmy Graham succeeds with Colt McCoy? And look at Aaron Rodgers. Jennings is a good receiver, but the rest of that corps is Rodgers made. And all three have almost no running game, and the running game only succeeds because of their passing.

I agree the Browns skill position players are not very good. But I think people are way overboard in saying they are the worst. Maybe they are.....or maybe it the QB combined with the skill players that make it look like the worst.

[Hermie13]

Check the WR cores in this league....you won't find many (if any) worse than the Browns'. Couple that with a sub-par OL and no running game, and very few if any QBs would perform.

I disagree. It's the whole chicken and egg thing. The elite or very good QBs make average players good. What big name receiver has Tom Brady had to throw to? Wes Welker? Hell, he made that guy. He had Randy Moss for a few years but was great before and after Moss. Look at the receiving corps Brees has. Sure, they look good but is it them or the QB? Are any of those guys All Pro? You think Jimmy Graham succeeds with Colt McCoy? And look at Aaron Rodgers. Jennings is a good receiver, but the rest of that corps is Rodgers made. And all three have almost no running game, and the running game only succeeds because of their passing.

I agree the Browns skill position players are not very good. But I think people are way overboard in saying they are the worst. Maybe they are.....or maybe it the QB combined with the skill players that make it look like the worst.

In 2008, Brady played in part of 1 game.....Wes Welker caught over 100 passes for over 1100 yards with Matt Cassel, the same average (10.5) as the previous year with Tom Brady. Unless you're calling Cassell an elite QB?

don't think anyone is arguing that Tom Brady is not a great QB though (so moot point). But did see what Brees did his first few years? Why didn't he make all those guys great? All he did was dump it off to his running back tomilson (Hall of Famer) over 100 times while not finding any of his WRs outside of David Boston, though at least he had David Boston (better than anything Colt has had).

as far as Rodgers....Donald Driver was a perennial 1000 yard WR before Rodgers showed up (and had over 1000 after). Again, no one on the Browns could carry his jock strap.

And Greg Jennings? Hmmm, over 900 yards in 2007 before rodgers took over in 2008. Rodgers did not make him. He was good before Rodgers showed up. And can't really say "well the rest is Rodgers made"...helps to have that #1 there in Jennings....and a #2 in Driver, and a RB the caliber of Ryan Grant.

I do agree, Great QBs do make players better....but even great QBs need help. Not saying Colt will ever be great, but you NEED someone to throw to.

You mentioned Newton and Stafford as good young QBs....

You think Newton would be having the year he's having without Steve Smith? What about Stafford without Calvin Johnson? Or what about Matt Schaub without Andre Johnson (or Arian Foster in the backfield)? Matt Ryan without Roddy White? Roethlisberger without Ward?

so is it really the chicken and the egg? I mean, all those WRs were great/very good WRs before their current QBs showed up, all had over 1000 yards before the QBs showed up. Again, not sold on Colt....but it's ludicrous to say he's a "journeyman" at best this early, with the offensive (pun intended) support he's had.

Bottom line, Colt has absolutely nothing to work with. Throw a rookie/2nd year Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers on this club (he took over a good team in his 2nd year) and he wouldn't look much better.


Fair enough if you say it's overboard calling our skilled position players the worst in the league....personally think you could call that an understatement though.

[daingean]

Just my personal opinion but McCoy isn't hitting his receivers well more because of decision making than ability. I think the decision making is complicated in the WCO and w/o the offseason to learn it, he is still learning on the fly. Add in that the WR corps is also still in the learning process. I'm not ready to say Colt is the answer but I still want to see if what he can do with the O in year 2 before I waste another 1st rounder on a QB. I also do think the WR corps may be in the bottom 4th of the league and they to are still learning the WCO.

[TonyIBI]

Just my personal opinion but McCoy isn't hitting his receivers well more because of decision making than ability. I think the decision making is complicated in the WCO and w/o the offseason to learn it, he is still learning on the fly. Add in that the WR corps is also still in the learning process. I'm not ready to say Colt is the answer but I still want to see if what he can do with the O in year 2 before I waste another 1st rounder on a QB. I also do think the WR corps may be in the bottom 4th of the league and they to are still learning the WCO.

I agree the talent around him is not all that great and that he maybe has not had the time to learn the WCO....but the most telling thing is how much he misses his receivers. You could have Andre Johnson or Josh Cribbs out there, and he is still missing them by significant yardage. I just don't see it with him. I feel like a lot of people are more hoping he becomes something when in fact he likely won't be anything. Fans held onto the hope Brady Quinn would be something for a long time and made excuses for him too, and in the end he did turn out to be a pretty bad QB.

In any case, McCoy is the guy for now.....but I would not hesitate one second to trade up for Luck or draft another QB in the first round if need be this year, and definitely look in FA for a veteran proven guy if this team wants to move forward. McCoy is not the kind of guy you sit around and wait to see what happens.

[Hermie13]

In any case, McCoy is the guy for now.....but I would not hesitate one second to trade up for Luck or draft another QB in the first round if need be this year, and definitely look in FA for a veteran proven guy if this team wants to move forward. McCoy is not the kind of guy you sit around and wait to see what happens.

They said the same things about Drew Brees.....hell, the Chargers did what you said and drafted another QB (Manning traded for Rivers). Drew Brees at least had a RB and a WR to throw to.

[Hermie13]

Just my personal opinion but McCoy isn't hitting his receivers well more because of decision making than ability. I think the decision making is complicated in the WCO and w/o the offseason to learn it, he is still learning on the fly. Add in that the WR corps is also still in the learning process. I'm not ready to say Colt is the answer but I still want to see if what he can do with the O in year 2 before I waste another 1st rounder on a QB. I also do think the WR corps may be in the bottom 4th of the league and they to are still learning the WCO.

This is my thought exactly. Throw in the fact that Holmgren has never drafted a QB round 1....and he overruled both Heckert and Mangini to draft McCoy, and personally think it's a moot point. Shurmur seems to think he can get McCoy going in this offense too. Don't see a QB round 1.

[TonyIBI]

In any case, McCoy is the guy for now.....but I would not hesitate one second to trade up for Luck or draft another QB in the first round if need be this year, and definitely look in FA for a veteran proven guy if this team wants to move forward. McCoy is not the kind of guy you sit around and wait to see what happens.

They said the same things about Drew Brees.....hell, the Chargers did what you said and drafted another QB (Manning traded for Rivers). Drew Brees at least had a RB and a WR to throw to.

And they said the same thing about Brady Quinn (that he was not the problem and the receivers, o-line, running backs, etc all sucked).

It's really an endless debate.

If he were hitting his open receivers and not missing them by 10-15 yards, even on short throws, I'd be welcome to letting him get more time and believing he could be better. But the guy absolutely has zero touch and not the accuracy that is needed to succeed in a WCO.

[Hermie13]

In any case, McCoy is the guy for now.....but I would not hesitate one second to trade up for Luck or draft another QB in the first round if need be this year, and definitely look in FA for a veteran proven guy if this team wants to move forward. McCoy is not the kind of guy you sit around and wait to see what happens.

They said the same things about Drew Brees.....hell, the Chargers did what you said and drafted another QB (Manning traded for Rivers). Drew Brees at least had a RB and a WR to throw to.

And they said the same thing about Brady Quinn (that he was not the problem and the receivers, o-line, running backs, etc all sucked).

It's really an endless debate.

If he were hitting his open receivers and not missing them by 10-15 yards, even on short throws, I'd be welcome to letting him get more time and believing he could be better. But the guy absolutely has zero touch and not the accuracy that is needed to succeed in a WCO.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Quinn had more talent around him, so did Brees (and Brees looked way worse than Colt has so far). Not sure how you can say people are exaggerating about the Browns have the worst WR core in the NFL...then say things like Colt missing his "open" WRs by 10-15 yards even on short throws. You can count on 1 hand the number of open WRs Colt has missed this year. There is Zero seperation between his WRs and the defender. Guys can't even run simple routes....which makes you wonder how many of these bad throws are just Colt's fault and not the WRs being in the wrong spots.

Pretty sad...but the Browns just cut their leading TD grabbing WR from the 2010 season (Robiskie had 3)....

[jellis]

In any case, McCoy is the guy for now.....but I would not hesitate one second to trade up for Luck or draft another QB in the first round if need be this year, and definitely look in FA for a veteran proven guy if this team wants to move forward. McCoy is not the kind of guy you sit around and wait to see what happens.

They said the same things about Drew Brees.....hell, the Chargers did what you said and drafted another QB (Manning traded for Rivers). Drew Brees at least had a RB and a WR to throw to.

And they said the same thing about Brady Quinn (that he was not the problem and the receivers, o-line, running backs, etc all sucked).

It's really an endless debate.

If he were hitting his open receivers and not missing them by 10-15 yards, even on short throws, I'd be welcome to letting him get more time and believing he could be better. But the guy absolutely has zero touch and not the accuracy that is needed to succeed in a WCO.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Quinn had more talent around him, so did Brees (and Brees looked way worse than Colt has so far). Not sure how you can say people are exaggerating about the Browns have the worst WR core in the NFL...then say things like Colt missing his "open" WRs by 10-15 yards even on short throws. You can count on 1 hand the number of open WRs Colt has missed this year. There is Zero seperation between his WRs and the defender. Guys can't even run simple routes....which makes you wonder how many of these bad throws are just Colt's fault and not the WRs being in the wrong spots.

Pretty sad...but the Browns just cut their leading TD grabbing WR from the 2010 season (Robiskie had 3)....

I can count 3 last week that he missed. The opening drive 3rd down, watson on a deep route before he was hurt, and even the cribbs TD was an over throw. He is hitting no one in stride, he is always high or low, and has zero feel for pressure. He looks cooked

[GeronimoSon]

Embarrassing... Houston 21 Clowns 3

Simply embarrassing... The Browns are horrible.. other that Josh Cribbs, they do not have a single player on the field of play that impacts the opposition in the least.. smh..

[Edible14]

This game was the definition of ugly.

I had been relatively happy with the way things were going thus far (low expectations do that). This game was a big let down for the defense, and the offense continues to look horrid.

I don't think McCoy is great, but I think it would be misguided to pin all the blame for the mess that is this offense on just his shoulders, or just his and Shurmur's shoulders. Way too many defenders coming in unblocked in this game. Little ran incorrect routes at least twice. Most of the sacks I saw were of the "QB hasn't even finished his dropback/play action before getting hit" variety. We played, for a significant portion of the game, a running back who was signed off the street a few days ago.

But hey, special teams looked much better.

[GeronimoSon]

Inept and pathetic..

Alex Smith fumbling on a running play..

A yank / pull hook to the left by Dawson..

Just pathetic.. smh..

[TonyIBI]

Inept and pathetic..

Alex Smith fumbling on a running play..

A yank / pull hook to the left by Dawson..

Just pathetic.. smh..

I know some will disagree, but Shurmur is not the answer. I know it is just 9 games in, but this guy is in over his head. Another poor head coaching hire by the Browns. Every year there is usually maybe one coaching hire that was the right one. A few years ago it was John Harbaugh in Baltimore, and it looks like Jim Harbaugh was the right one in SF this offseason.

Hell, look at what John Fox is doing with that piece of crap team in Denver? That's the difference. Shurmur just looks like another Chris Palmer and I would be VERY surprised if the Browns don't have a new coach (again) for the 2013 season.

[Hermie13]

I know some will disagree, but Shurmur is not the answer. I know it is just 9 games in, but this guy is in over his head. Another poor head coaching hire by the Browns. Every year there is usually maybe one coaching hire that was the right one. A few years ago it was John Harbaugh in Baltimore, and it looks like Jim Harbaugh was the right one in SF this offseason.

Hell, look at what John Fox is doing with that piece of crap team in Denver? That's the difference. Shurmur just looks like another Chris Palmer and I would be VERY surprised if the Browns don't have a new coach (again) for the 2013 season.

I agree to a point here. I'd hold off on saying Harbaugh, was the right one in SF as we saw what happened to McDaniels in Denver...plus that division is beyond pathetic. Not sure on John either. I mean, yeah Balimore has been good under him...but the guy inherited a GREAT football team. Brown's problem really isn't the HC (though not a fan), but the lack of talent for the last decade plus on the field. I do, however, agree that Shurmur looks overmatched. Really hated him not having an OC, even if he's calling the plays he needs someone there with him.

Again, not a fan of Shurmur either, though I would be surprised if he was not the HC in 2013. He's Holmgren's and Heckert's guy....I don't think either (especially Holmgren) would give up on him after just 2 seasons. Plus, as much as I don't like Shurmur....he too didn't have a real offseason to get acquainted with his players. Think he gets at least 3 years if not more to prove things.

[GeronimoSon]

Step 1: Fire the head coach and his staff...

Step 2: Bring in a new coach and staff..

Step 3: Publish a five year plan...

Step 4: Two years later.. Repeat step one..

Part SEIS...coming up... smh..

[GeronimoSon]

Yeah Tony.. miserable wet windy and cold.. and the weather pretty much sucked too.. Next up will be the "media" cry for Shurmur to be fired.. get an offensive coordinator.. etc.. It's the usual pattern that's been followed for the 12 years. This has happened six times or once every other year..

[TonyIBI]

Yeah Tony.. miserable wet windy and cold.. and the weather pretty much sucked too.. Next up will be the "media" cry for Shurmur to be fired.. get an offensive coordinator.. etc.. It's the usual pattern that's been followed for the 12 years. This has happened six times or once every other year..

That was another bad game today. Ugh. Hard to sit and watch that week after week, year after year. It's like we are in the freaking CFL or something and everyone else is in the NFL. This team is getting close to needing another enema from the front office down.

[Edible14]

Yeah Tony.. miserable wet windy and cold.. and the weather pretty much sucked too.. Next up will be the "media" cry for Shurmur to be fired.. get an offensive coordinator.. etc.. It's the usual pattern that's been followed for the 12 years. This has happened six times or once every other year..

I really don't want to give up on Shurmur right now. As a rule, I think head coaches should get 3 seasons. ESPECIALLY when the roster is being turned over completely both on offense and defense, with new schemes involved. Don't mistake that for me being a Shurmur fan, because I'm not. I wasn't on board with either his hiring or Mangini's firing. But if you think of a lot of the most successful coaches out there, most of them didn't have instant success. Bill Belichick didn't, even if you don't count his stint with the Browns (5-11 in his first year with the Pats). Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first year. Andy Reid was 5-11 in his first year. So I don't think it's fair to say that this season should get Shurmur fired, considering what he inherited and the constraints he's had to deal with.

In the meantime, we need to get better at this whole drafting thing. We've let a lot of talent go in the past few years over philosophical differences, and we haven't been re-supplying this team well enough. Some of that was on Mangini, but Heckert hasn't been wonderful. Taylor has impressed in spots, but not nearly as much as you'd like out of a 1st round pick. Little has been severely disappointing. Sheard has been a success in my eyes. Everyone else from this last draft has failed to make an impact (Cameron hasn't been heard from, Skrine has been bad in the time he's been on the field, ditto Pinkston and Hagg). 2010's draft is looking okay, but with some caveats (McCoy being mediocre, Hardesty and Ward being hurt). 2009 is looking like a waste unless Maiava or MoMass start getting better (Alex Mack being the only unqualified success from that draft).

If we end up dumping Shurmur after either next season or his third season, we're going to want to get West Coast Offense/4-3 minded coach (so we don't have to turnover the roster) who hopefully will be stepping into a situation where they have some talent on the roster to inherit and do something with. That's what both of the Harbaugs ran into when they were hired, and it's the reason that they've had such instant success.