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Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:20 pm

ironmike wrote:If the Indians are serious about winning a WS with this group they need to add a ton of talent to the core.


Disagree here. While we do need some more talent, a "ton" seems like a stretch. 80 wins with 4/5ths of our rotation hitting the DL and half the lineup? After a 69 win season? I don't think anyone wants to see us make no moves this winter, but don't have to go too crazy to win 90 games next year IMO.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:25 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I doubt they would be interested in Zeke, given the "vast expanses" of their outfield. He's an awful defensive centerfielder.


Realize the kid struggled, but he's still a very solid CFer defensively. Would be a solid NL player IMO (though not saying the Cards would have interest).


As far as the Cards needs....bullpen is still a need and they've already admitted this. Whether the Tribe and Cards match up in that regard remains to be seen. Agree too though that middle infield is an area of weakness for them.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:27 pm

Okay Hermie if not a ton of talent, I'd like to see your bullet point blue print as to how the Indians will exactly make up 15 games on the Tigers and win the division in 2012.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:42 pm

ironmike wrote:Geronimo you are trying to shine your own badge. I did not say BUY a big bat. We will need to trade for a player (s). Every player is available for the right price. If you re-read the posts and lay off the peyote for a day you might be better at interpreting what was posted. You make trades from positions of strength. Trades are like joint ventures you match up weaknesses and strenghts. To get these type of players it will take players from the current 25 roster and prospects.

There are players out there who are available for the right price that have the following credentials:

1. Good K-BB ratio (this must be improved team wide in order to score more runs)
2. Players who hit .280 and up
3. Players who score 100 runs per season
4. Players who are affordable and can be controlled for an extended period
5. Players who are good teammates
6. Players who hit 25 HR's and drive in 100+ runs
7. Players who run the bases well.
8. Adequate defensive player

All of the above add up to not a great, super star type, but a good baseball player. Indians fans have seen great players in the past. Right now we need at least two more additional players like this, more likely three, outside of Santana, Cabrera, and who ever else might surprise us and have a career year. Can't count on Hafner, Sizemore won't be back and Choo needs to be healthy.

That is what it is going to take to win the division. Detroit's starting pitching of Verlander, Porcello, Schrezer, and Fister can be countered with good bats, lots of them. Texas is proving to neutralize them. There is a formula, you just need to know what to look for and at!


9. the parent club of the player makes that player available for trade

So, your examples:

-McCutchen is NOT AVAILABLE
-Markakis is NOT AVAILABLE
-Votto is NOT AVAILABLE

The Indians have absolutely no intention or desire to make Chisenhall & Kipnis available for trade.. Time to back off the fantasy baseball approach and find terra firma...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:46 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I doubt they would be interested in Zeke, given the "vast expanses" of their outfield. He's an awful defensive centerfielder.


Realize the kid struggled, but he's still a very solid CFer defensively. Would be a solid NL player IMO (though not saying the Cards would have interest).


As far as the Cards needs....bullpen is still a need and they've already admitted this. Whether the Tribe and Cards match up in that regard remains to be seen. Agree too though that middle infield is an area of weakness for them.


Zeke's defense in CF was described by Ross Atkins as being the best the Indians have in their system (that's either a good thing..or it's like being the tallest munchkin in munchkin land..i.e. it doesn't mean anything).. While it didn't translate that way in the few games he played CF at the corner of Ontario and Carnegie, you have to believe he does have the ability to play that spot.. and you're correct, he'd be a MUCH more effective NL'er...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby martyinnewyork » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:53 pm

This "make up 15 games on the Tigers" thing is getting old. Next April, we are no longer 15 games behind Detroit. The Tigers may not be as injury-free next year and maybe we will be much more healthy, though guys like Grady and Pronk make that far from a sure bet. The Royals could contend. Who knows.
Luckily, we also don't have to make up 43 and 1/2 games on the '27 Yankees...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:23 pm

Geronimo about the kind of response I expected ... ditto NYM. You guys are all about problems and scenerios but never put forth any real defined solutions. Gotta wonder about that.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby martyinnewyork » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:00 pm

Iron- you can improve the team by either:
- staying with what you've got and hope for more wins due to better health or an upgrade in performance or, ideally, both
- trading for players that will make your team better in theory
- signing free agents to do the same

That should cover it.

Now, the Indians did what you seem to feel is the best way to go, namely trading 4 of our prospects for one stud pitcher. The net result is that we didn't gain ground by that move. Should we swap 4 more prospects for a stud batter, there is no guarantee that we make our club significantly better. All three of the above methods are a roll of the dice, whether you like it or not.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:12 pm

Can we please establish that Andrew McCutchen is NOT available, nor is Markasis. You can kiss your Votto idea good-bye as well. Every player is NOT available for the right price. 9 out of 10 times that "right" price isn't worth it. Say you trade away Chisenhall/Kipnis away.. guess what, you're just creating another hole for them. I don't care who you acquire. Donald/Hannahan are not better than Chisenhall/Kipnis.

From your logic, ironmike, Pujols, ARod, MCabrera, Tulowitzki, etc. could all also be had with the right price. Keep dreaming.

You keep mentioning making up 15 games.. why? We start fresh next year and those 15 games no longer matter. It's a whole new season, injuries happen, players underperform. We sat here this past spring thinking the Twins and White Sox would be legit contenders... look how that turned out. Anything can happen in a given season. Hell, look what we did this season. Did any of us expect it during spring training? Hell no. You'd be a liar if you said you did.

That being said, do the Indians need upgrades? Absolutely. I'd be all for a Willingham type player. But I'm not going to bank our future for it. We could use a right handed bat who can play a corner OF position or even CF, we could use a first baseman, a veteran starter... But again, you don't need to break the bank/farm system to do it. Most of the time when you do.. it's a bust.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:37 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
-McCutchen is NOT AVAILABLE
-Markakis is NOT AVAILABLE
-Votto is NOT AVAILABLE

The Indians have absolutely no intention or desire to make Chisenhall & Kipnis available for trade.. Time to back off the fantasy baseball approach and find terra firma...


G-mo, I understand your point about filling one hole but creating another. But I hope you can understand what it will take to make the Indians true contenders in 2012. It's not likely the Indians can attract a top notch FA type. There is also nobody in the high minors left that could help (other than pitchers). That leaves the trade option. Votto is just a name in the news. Surely a creative GM can find one attractive bat.

Let's say, hypothetically, that Votto is on the market. (BTW - I didn't start the rumor).
Let's say , hypothetically, that Chisenhall would be part of a package to get Votto.
The Indians would definitely be creating a hole at 3B. (Although I'm sure Hannahan would be adequate short-term).
I happen to think that Chisenhall will become a very good player. Hell, for all we know he could become a HOF'er.
But here's the thing. I can virtually guarantee that Votto will out-hit, out-produce, and out-play Chisenhall in the 2012 season. Chis is not at that level of development yet. I think - in 2012 - the combination of Votto/Hannahan would be more valuable than the combination of Laporta/Chisenhall. Just like Antonetti feels that Ubaldo is more valuable than Pom/White - in 2012.

All-in means all-in. Nobody is waiting for the Indians to unveil the banner "2011 Cleveland Indians - 2nd Place AL Central"'
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:12 pm

One thing about hypothetical examples.. they portend to present that there is at least a grain of reality or truth to the proposition..

Yes, hypothetically.. A Votto / Hoover combination has more value both defensively and offensively to the Indians in 2012 than the combination of LaPorta / Chisenhall... no bout a doubt it. Financially, the Indians add about $ 9.5 MM in the deal plus whatever other prospects go with Chisenhall to complete the deal (and don't kid yourself, the Reds would want a lot more than Lonnie Chisenhall for Joey Votto). In 2013, the same production forecast may be true and would most most likely be true. Financially, the Indians would add another $ 11 MM.. In 2014, while Chisenhall is killing it in the Natti..the Indians will be looking for another 1B to replace the departed Joey Votto or, perhaps Matt LaPorta will be ready to kill it himself by that time.. It could be Jesus Aguilar as well.. who knows..

It's not that I don't see the benefit of having a vastly superior player at a spot on the club.. it's that Walt Jocketty has specifically stated.. 'Joey Votto is NOT AVAILABLE...he wished people would stop asking/talking to him about it' Now.. would Yonder Alonso, who has a much chance of being available, be able to provide the same kind of "assurance" for production in 2012 as Votto?.. IDK..I doubt it. Otherwise, if the Reds thought so, Walt Jocketty wouldn't be making that comment....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:52 pm

I am very sure that Markakis is not available as his value to Angelos exceeds his value to any other team. I also do not see the Pirates wanting to trade McCutcheon for a number of prospects (they have been drafting at the top of the draft for years - they have all the prospects they need). If Votto is available his price will be enormous. Wasn't Ditka (funny how his moniker is the same) the one that traded his entire draft for Ricky Williams and the team tanked because they didn't have the depth that would support the team. In my opinion, Cincy's asking price for Votto will be so steep that we would be a 1 man team kind of like the Indians in the 60's - 80's. Yes kick the tires on Votto, Markakis, or McCutcheon but be prepared to come away with nothing to show for it. Then set your sites on Plan B guys because those guys are the ones that are realistic.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:27 pm

ironmike wrote:Okay Hermie if not a ton of talent, I'd like to see your bullet point blue print as to how the Indians will exactly make up 15 games on the Tigers and win the division in 2012.


1. Let the young kids play all year.
2. Get healthy
3. Let Ubaldo loose for a full year
4. Add one bat.


sorry, that was numbers, not bullet points. :drinks:


GSon brought up a good comparison a while ago that I'll steal.....Tribe went 80-82 in 2004 and then won 93 games in 2005. What did the Tribe do? They added Milwood coming off injury, Juan Gonzalez (and his 1 painful at-bat), Aaron Boon, and Jose hernandez (while dropping Omar).

they let the young kids play, and they performed. Yes, we fell short....but hey, a 2nd wild card is likely coming so we'd be in! lol
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:28 am

Who is the bat?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:31 am

Daingean, agree with you. The key is to have high expectations. If you look at the history of baseball players almost all of the great ones have been traded, so it does happen more often than not.

Everyone of those players on the wish list will eventually play for other teams. Why not Cleveland?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:43 am

ironmike wrote:Daingean, agree with you. The key is to have high expectations. If you look at the history of baseball players almost all of the great ones have been traded, so it does happen more often than not.

Everyone of those players on the wish list will eventually play for other teams. Why not Cleveland?


Why not Cleveland? well basically because the economic system in baseball is broken and Cleveland is at a disadvantage. My point is that you have to be realistic about that. Plus in my opinion the cost of obtaining any of the guys on your list would be more harmful to our chances than helping because we would have to sell our future and our present. I like chocolate cake but i'm not paying $100 for a slice and that is really what your advocating to do (way over pay for someone that basically is not available).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:53 am

A. Zajac, your thought process won't help the Indians win the division in 2012. No matter what you say or believe the Tigers were 15 games better than the Indians and have a far superior team. Their starting pitching is better, their line up is better. Your dreaming if you don't agree. We had two 12 game winners amongst our starters and even their bull pen out performed ours. So yes, in reality they are miles better than we are at the present moment. There is no guarantee the Indians can even match our 80 wins from this past season. The front office needs to put their foot on the gas pedal and go for it.

Adding Willingham would be be counter productive. Why would you want to add a guy who K's 150 times to a team that already leads the league in strike outs? This team needs to walk more, K less and score more runs in order to improve. Willingham hit less than .250 didn't score enough runs and is a very mediocre player. Keep Duncan in the line up versus adding Willingham would be a wash. We won't win championships with these types of players.

By the way, guarantee would you not have said Jimenez was not available. You should best stick to reporting rookie league box scores and don't let Ross Atkins brain wash you. If you would read the posts more carefully instead of trying to push yourself out there as Mr. Baseball you might understand what is trying to be said here. It doesn't matter who the player(s) are they need to bring certain qualities and tangibles above and beyond what a Willingham would in order to win. Willingham is Matt Lawton all over again. We need an Albert Belle, Adrian Beltre or Toby Harrah type player in order to improve our line up.

The winning formula is out there. The Texas Rangers have it. The John Hart formula. Their team is built very similar to our team of the 90's. If you don't see or agree with that then you really should consider covering NASCAR.

Ghost of Ted Cox, your post was very well said. If this team wants to win in 2012 they are going to need to add Joey Votto type players.

PS It is a pleasure to watch Hamilton, Napoli, Young and Beltre take pitches on the outside of the plate and go the other way with them for base hits versus Sizemore and Choo who try to pull every pitch. Sizemore has regressed as a hitter big time, not sure it is all about injuries, but more from a lack of not listening and making adjustments.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:55 am

Yes, the system is broken, but if the Indians dump Sizemore and Carmona's extensions we will have money ($16M) to add an impact player and still be able to handle arbitration situations. Plus, Hafner's $13M comes off the books after next year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:59 am

Geronimo, I see your shouting certain players are NOT available. You make a list of 10 players who are of the caliber needed, including those mentioned and you will eventually get one, because teams needs change daily. It is about being aggressive and persistent. It may take from now until the July deadline, but good GM's find ways to get it done. Confident Antonetti has the intelligence to get this done. What he has done so far as far as posturing is miles ahead of Shapiro / Wedge IMO.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:05 am

ironmike wrote:Who is the bat?


It's not Votto..
It's not Markakis..
It's not McCutchen..

It could be Melky Cabrera.. or Chris Denorfia.. or Allen Craig.. or Nolan Reimold.. or Josh Willingham.. or Logan Morrison.. or Jason Heyward.. or Marlon Byrd.. or Mike Saunders.. or Joherym Chavez.. or Angel Pagan.. or Jesus Guzman.. or Alex Presley.. or Endy Chavez.. or Yonder Alonso.. or Kevin Kouzmanoff. (Yes, this is more than 10) All of these "names" save for Jason Heyward, would be available at the right price which excludes the Indians untouchables:

Justin Masterson
Josh Tomlin
Nick Hagadone
Jason Kipnis
Lonnie Chisenhall
Carlos Santana
Michael Brantley

Setting the sights a bit higher, Indians' players that could be involved in a trade would include Shin-soo Choo and Asdrubal Cabrera. They would be VERY expensive for the acquiring team..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:44 am

Andrew Zajac is Mr. Baseball.. wouldn't Bob Uecker a.k.a. Harry Doyle have to give his nod on that?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:14 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Andrew Zajac is Mr. Baseball.. wouldn't Bob Uecker a.k.a. Harry Doyle have to give his nod on that?


And the random attack... why? We're on the same team here and pretty much in agreement against what ironmike is saying.. but, okay then. :drinks:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:24 am

ironmike wrote:Yes, the system is broken, but if the Indians dump Sizemore and Carmona's extensions we will have money ($16M) to add an impact player and still be able to handle arbitration situations. Plus, Hafner's $13M comes off the books after next year.


That $16M will be more like 7 or 8 after certain players start the Arbitration process. The issue is we either already traded the ammunition (Pom and White) that could have gotten us that bat or trading away guys that fill needs on the team. In reality, we would not be able to touch a Votto without parting with Santana and Chis/Kipnis and a pitching prospect. We don't have a top pitching prospect in the waiting (we have interesting guys but no number 1). It would take a number 1 prospect at least in AAA or the majors just to get to the table. I don't mind asking to get to the negotiating table on guys but you have to be realistic. In reality, we don't have an Albert Belle or any of those guys but we do have 2 Toby Harrahs in training and 1 or the other (Chiz or Kipnis) and maybe both will get there. But trading all those guys away to get a Votto will make the team perform like Harrah's Indians did. Jiminez was available because his velocity was down and Colorado didn't think he was worth what he was being paid. I think they fleeced us but I do think Ubaldo will bounce back next year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby martyinnewyork » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:36 am

Iron- the only way to stop you is to agree with you :biggrin:

But I don't...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:41 am

A.Zajac wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Andrew Zajac is Mr. Baseball.. wouldn't Bob Uecker a.k.a. Harry Doyle have to give his nod on that?


And the random attack... why? We're on the same team here and pretty much in agreement against what ironmike is saying.. but, okay then. :drinks:
I apologize if this offended you as it wasn't meant to be an attack of any form or type... it was a "tongue and cheek" response to I-Mike's comment about you being Mr Baseball.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby martyinnewyork » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:41 am

Hey, I've got it! Let's trade for Verlander and Miguel Cabrera! That should bring us within 7 or 8 games of the Tiggers!!! Ace SP and RH bat! Problem solved!!! Tigers would trade both I am sure!!!
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:42 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Iron- the only way to stop you is to agree with you :biggrin:

But I don't...

+1 miny. waste of time responding. :rolleyes:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:25 am

Here are some safe predictions about the 2012 Indians that most of us would agree on: :friends:
1. ACab will have a good year, but not as strong as 2011.
2. Kipnis could become a rising star.
3. Hafner will spend time on the DL.
4. Ubaldo should be a slightly above .500 pitcher.
5. The bullpen should have another good year.
6. Choo should have a better year, but not quite as good as pre-2011.

If most of those things happen, and there are less injuries, the Indians will improve on their 80 win season. But it will be nowhere near the 95 wins that might be needed to make the playoffs next year.

IMO to truly contend, a piece needs to be added that is All Star quality. He could be a rising star, or an old timer with one last good season. It doesn't matter. It might even be a name that surprises us. Production in 2012 is what matters.

Indians management showed they are all-in by making the Ubaldo trade.
Indians management has already stated that 2012 payroll will be significantly higher, (even though they will not pick up Sizemore's option).

Here's one more prediction. The Indians will not have Shelly Duncan as the opening day LF. :reallyshocked:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:53 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Here are some safe predictions about the 2012 Indians that most of us would agree on: :friends:
1. ACab will have a good year, but not as strong as 2011.
2. Kipnis could become a rising star.
3. Hafner will spend time on the DL.
4. Ubaldo should be a slightly above .500 pitcher.
5. The bullpen should have another good year.
6. Choo should have a better year, but not quite as good as pre-2011.

If most of those things happen, and there are less injuries, the Indians will improve on their 80 win season. But it will be nowhere near the 95 wins that might be needed to make the playoffs next year.

IMO to truly contend, a piece needs to be added that is All Star quality. He could be a rising star, or an old timer with one last good season. It doesn't matter. It might even be a name that surprises us. Production in 2012 is what matters.

Indians management showed they are all-in by making the Ubaldo trade.
Indians management has already stated that 2012 payroll will be significantly higher, (even though they will not pick up Sizemore's option).

Here's one more prediction. The Indians will not have Shelly Duncan as the opening day LF. :reallyshocked:



Add in Santana increasing his offensive production and Chiz providing more offense for 3B as last year. This along with what you have stated above should be enough to get us to 86 wins. I also believe that an improved Fausto and #5 starter would improve this team. Now factor in a right handed bat at either 1b or OF (does not have to be the same AS quality) and you could be around 92 wins. Certainly an AS quality bat would raise our chances dramatically but is it really realistic?

One thing about Carmona is that when he's bad he's real bad but when he's on he's pretty good. I don't care about his ERA because of that but I want to see more quality starts and less stinkers. Also hiring a better a new hitting coach may be able to
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:19 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Here are some safe predictions about the 2012 Indians that most of us would agree on: :friends:
1. ACab will have a good year, but not as strong as 2011.
2. Kipnis could become a rising star.
3. Hafner will spend time on the DL.
4. Ubaldo should be a slightly above .500 pitcher.
5. The bullpen should have another good year.
6. Choo should have a better year, but not quite as good as pre-2011.


I don't agree with this about Cabrera. 2009 was better than his 2011 season, I see no reason he can't be better next year than he was this year, and actually am expecting it as this was really his first full ML season (hurt all the other years). I know I've been on AC a lot, but I do like him and think he can be even better than he has been, and don't think it's a stretch to think that he can.

Also disagree strongly on Ubaldo, think he easily could win 18 games for us next year and am expecting him to be at least a 15 game winner. A healthy spring training will do him wonders....ask Cliff Lee.

On Choo....also see no reason that he can't rebound to pre-2011 levels or even BETTER levels.


Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way on these 3, but I'm guessing not....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:35 pm

ironmike wrote:Who is the bat?


I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you (kidding)


The list is almost endless of who we should go after. Personally think Votto will be available but don't think we can land him, I say try (can't hurt to see what the cost is), but gotta be realistic. D'backs showed you don't have to go crazy to improve and win a division, same with the Rays.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:42 pm

The Indians could make up some ground on Detroit mainly through improved offensive production from players they already have.

1. Catcher. Here are Santana's 2010 OPS by month:

April .722
May .787
June .785
July .818
Aug .828
Sep .888

Spot a trend? In his first full season of exposure to ML pitching, Carlos made steady progress. I'm looking for a number much closer to .888 than .722 next year.

2. First base. LaPorta's line at the end of August was .246/.626. That got him sent down to Columbus, where they worked with him on using the entire field. After coming back in September he consistently took outside pitches the other way and hit .333/.874. He's not a .333 hitter, but I'll bet that if he continues that approach next year he'll do way, way better than .246/.626.

3. Second base. Kipnis hit .272/.841 after taking over for Orlando Cabrera, who hit .244/.598 in 324 AB's. That's a whopping 250 point increase in OPS. Giving those 324 AB's to Kipnis and Donald next year will result in a major jump in production at 2nd base.

4. Third base. Chisenhall's BA by month:

July .217
Aug .241
Sep .279

The kid just turned 23 this month. He really looked like he was getting it there at the end. At his age there's plenty of upside. He actually hit lefties better than right-handers (.260/.888 versus .253/.640). He hit 5 HRs in only 50 ABs against left-handed pitching. I'm expecting his trend to continue upward.

5. Left field. On July 25 Brantley was hitting .281/.730. Then his hand started bothering him and the rest of the way he hit .195 until they shut him down for surgery. Next year I'm looking for something in the .290/.760 range as his career also continues to trend up.

6. Right field.

2010 Choo: .300 BA, 22 HRs, 90 RBI
2011 Choo: .259 BA, 8 HRs, 36 RBI

'Nuff said.

7. Center field. Between Grady, Zeke, Fukudome, and a few games of Crowe, we didn't get much. There's no reason to expect more production from CF next year unless Grady is re-signed and manages to stay healthy for much of the season or a new player (Upton?) is brought in. This position is a wild card at the moment, but I don't see how it can be much worse.

8. Utility infield. Jason Donald hit .318 in 132 ABs after returning from the DL. This dwarfs the offense provided by Phelps, Valbuena, and Adam Everett. UIF is not an everyday position, but a healthy Donald should add another bump in production when he fills in at 2nd and SS.

Here are the players that will not be coming up to bat for the Tribe next year and their 2011 averages:

Everett .217 (60 ABs)
Valbuena .209 (43)
Kearns .200 (150)
Phelps .155 (71)
Head .125 (24)
Crowe .214 (28)

That's 376 wasted ABs. Those ABs next year will go mostly to Donald, Duncan, Brantley and Choo.

The improved production which I believe can be reasonably expected at six positions in the lineup (and I'm not counting on anything more than last year from Grady or Pronk) should result in a significant increase in runs scored next year. The bullpen looks to be the same with some likely improvement as Durbin and Herrmann are replaced by Hagadone and one of the other top prospects like Putnam, Judy, or Lee.

The starting pitching is largely dependent on Ubaldo returning to something in the neighborhood of his former glory. His ERA for the Tribe this year was 5.10, and I have to believe he'll be a much better pitcher than that next year. Not a Cy Young candidate, but something in the 3.50 range should get it done.

I was also very encouraged by the way Gomez finished the season. He's another young player who's trending up.

The expected increase in offense at 6-7 positions as I outlined it is why I'm not pushing for the Tribe to bring in a mediocre free agent like Willingham or trade an ascending star like Kipnis or Chiz. I like the bats we have except for center field. Hafner is always questionable but Shelly Duncan did a great job after the All-Star break so we have some insurance there. We can also use Santana as a DH to spell Hafner and let Marson catch, as he is excellent defensively and hit close to .300 against left-handed pitching.

B.J. Upton is the one guy I'd like to get, but it would have to be for a package of players along the lines of Donald, Raffie Perez, and somebody like McAlister or Huff. If they demand Choo, Kipnis, Chiz, or Brantley I'm walking away.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:59 pm

Prosecutor wrote:5. Left field. On July 25 Brantley was hitting .281/.730. Then his hand started bothering him and the rest of the way he hit .195 until they shut him down for surgery. Next year I'm looking for something in the .290/.760 range as his career also continues to trend up.


I hope you're right on Brantley's career "trend" continuing up, but don't have the faith you do do here.

On July 25th his OBP was .337. In the 2nd half of 2010, when it was .335. Actually hit a couple pts higher. Slight jump in his OPS was from the extra pop he showed, but his K-rate also went up (as did his K-BB ratio). IMO, Brantley took a step back this year (other than power). Defense is still shaky in CF, walk rate isn't that great, struggles against lefties...

He needs a big year next year or he's a 4th outfielder. I really don't care that much about his OPS, but he needs to get his OBP up above the .335-.340 range as we can't have him hiting leadoff then. You can live with less power in LF if he's a top of the order guy, but he hasn't shown an ability to steal or get on base....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby theshow » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:17 pm

Am I the only one who thinks turning down Grady Sizemore's option would be a mistake? I know they are on a limited budget and the 9 million is not my money, but hear me out:

Players like Carlos Beltran and Hunter Pence netted excellent prospects like Wheeler, Cosart, and Singleton at the deadline. When Grady Sizemore is healthy (and those times I know have been few and far between), his skill set is very comperable to those 2, and I would argue every bit as good. Scouts who saw Sizemore come back this season said the physical tools were still there for Sizemore to return to form. Why not pay the money to Grady, knowing we could potentially flip him for a piece that can be cost controlled and help the major league team down the road. I know there is this big risk involved in him staying healthy, but sometimes you need to take a risk.

Also, picking up Carmona is a no brainer. If they don't pick that up they are insane. No question a team would give him more than 7 million for 1 year on the open market.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:39 pm

theshow wrote:Am I the only one who thinks turning down Grady Sizemore's option would be a mistake? I know they are on a limited budget and the 9 million is not my money, but hear me out:

Players like Carlos Beltran and Hunter Pence netted excellent prospects like Wheeler, Cosart, and Singleton at the deadline. When Grady Sizemore is healthy (and those times I know have been few and far between), his skill set is very comperable to those 2, and I would argue every bit as good. Scouts who saw Sizemore come back this season said the physical tools were still there for Sizemore to return to form. Why not pay the money to Grady, knowing we could potentially flip him for a piece that can be cost controlled and help the major league team down the road. I know there is this big risk involved in him staying healthy, but sometimes you need to take a risk.

Also, picking up Carmona is a no brainer. If they don't pick that up they are insane. No question a team would give him more than 7 million for 1 year on the open market.


theShow.. the Indians have to at explore the possibility of working a deal with Grady for a lower guaranteed portion of his contract and a series of incentives that both side feel are 'respectable'.. Otherwise, if a renegotiation does not happen, then the One and Done single year contract should be picked up.. Stating that the Indians would save that money to spend on someone else (who that someone else is, remains a mystery).. while it sure looks like shit.. it sure smells like shit.. and it sure feels like shit.. arentcha glad you don't have to taste it?..
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:47 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The Indians could make up some ground on Detroit mainly through improved offensive production from players they already have.

1. Catcher. Here are Santana's 2010 OPS by month:

April .722
May .787
June .785
July .818
Aug .828
Sep .888

Spot a trend? In his first full season of exposure to ML pitching, Carlos made steady progress. I'm looking for a number much closer to .888 than .722 next year.

2. First base. LaPorta's line at the end of August was .246/.626. That got him sent down to Columbus, where they worked with him on using the entire field. After coming back in September he consistently took outside pitches the other way and hit .333/.874. He's not a .333 hitter, but I'll bet that if he continues that approach next year he'll do way, way better than .246/.626.

3. Second base. Kipnis hit .272/.841 after taking over for Orlando Cabrera, who hit .244/.598 in 324 AB's. That's a whopping 250 point increase in OPS. Giving those 324 AB's to Kipnis and Donald next year will result in a major jump in production at 2nd base.

4. Third base. Chisenhall's BA by month:

July .217
Aug .241
Sep .279

The kid just turned 23 this month. He really looked like he was getting it there at the end. At his age there's plenty of upside. He actually hit lefties better than right-handers (.260/.888 versus .253/.640). He hit 5 HRs in only 50 ABs against left-handed pitching. I'm expecting his trend to continue upward.

5. Left field. On July 25 Brantley was hitting .281/.730. Then his hand started bothering him and the rest of the way he hit .195 until they shut him down for surgery. Next year I'm looking for something in the .290/.760 range as his career also continues to trend up.

6. Right field.

2010 Choo: .300 BA, 22 HRs, 90 RBI
2011 Choo: .259 BA, 8 HRs, 36 RBI

'Nuff said.

7. Center field. Between Grady, Zeke, Fukudome, and a few games of Crowe, we didn't get much. There's no reason to expect more production from CF next year unless Grady is re-signed and manages to stay healthy for much of the season or a new player (Upton?) is brought in. This position is a wild card at the moment, but I don't see how it can be much worse.

8. Utility infield. Jason Donald hit .318 in 132 ABs after returning from the DL. This dwarfs the offense provided by Phelps, Valbuena, and Adam Everett. UIF is not an everyday position, but a healthy Donald should add another bump in production when he fills in at 2nd and SS.

Here are the players that will not be coming up to bat for the Tribe next year and their 2011 averages:

Everett .217 (60 ABs)
Valbuena .209 (43)
Kearns .200 (150)
Phelps .155 (71)
Head .125 (24)
Crowe .214 (28)

That's 376 wasted ABs. Those ABs next year will go mostly to Donald, Duncan, Brantley and Choo.

The improved production which I believe can be reasonably expected at six positions in the lineup (and I'm not counting on anything more than last year from Grady or Pronk) should result in a significant increase in runs scored next year. The bullpen looks to be the same with some likely improvement as Durbin and Herrmann are replaced by Hagadone and one of the other top prospects like Putnam, Judy, or Lee.

The starting pitching is largely dependent on Ubaldo returning to something in the neighborhood of his former glory. His ERA for the Tribe this year was 5.10, and I have to believe he'll be a much better pitcher than that next year. Not a Cy Young candidate, but something in the 3.50 range should get it done.

I was also very encouraged by the way Gomez finished the season. He's another young player who's trending up.

The expected increase in offense at 6-7 positions as I outlined it is why I'm not pushing for the Tribe to bring in a mediocre free agent like Willingham or trade an ascending star like Kipnis or Chiz. I like the bats we have except for center field. Hafner is always questionable but Shelly Duncan did a great job after the All-Star break so we have some insurance there. We can also use Santana as a DH to spell Hafner and let Marson catch, as he is excellent defensively and hit close to .300 against left-handed pitching.

B.J. Upton is the one guy I'd like to get, but it would have to be for a package of players along the lines of Donald, Raffie Perez, and somebody like McAlister or Huff. If they demand Choo, Kipnis, Chiz, or Brantley I'm walking away.


Excellent points and excellent post. I'm sure the Indians will improve with all the young players getting more experience. But don't count on ALL of them improving. S--- happens.

Nobody expected Choo to stink like he did last year.
Nobody expected ACab to break his arm a couple of years ago.
Nobody expected Sizemore to be washed up so fast.
Nobody expected Carmona to be so inconsistent.

Somethings like that will happen next year too. Maybe a SP will come down with the dreaded oblique injury.

The way to overcome this, and contend, is by adding somebody to the lineup that makes everybody else better. Woundn't it be nice if Santana could bat 5th next season? It would trickle down the whole lineup.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:35 pm

The way to overcome this, and contend, is by adding somebody to the lineup that makes everybody else better. Woundn't it be nice if Santana could bat 5th next season? It would trickle down the whole lineup.


Yep, it would be great to add a #3 or #4 hitter to push Santana down to #5 and make everybody better. Any idea who that guy is, why his current team would be willing to trade him, and who they would want in exchange from the Indians that we would be willing to give up for such a great player?

By the way, I agree that it's not a slam dunk that six positions will be more productive next year. There are solid reasons why this should happen, but you can never discount the possibility of injuries, DUIs, motorcycle accidents, etc. There's also the possibility that Brantley, Santana, and LaPorta have topped out and won't get any better. However, I think their developmental curves are still ascending and they haven't maxed out yet. If Brantley settles in as a .280 guy with a .335 OBP, then he's a slightly above average left fielder when you factor in his speed and range in the outfield. We make do with that until we can develop or trade for something better.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:31 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
The way to overcome this, and contend, is by adding somebody to the lineup that makes everybody else better. Woundn't it be nice if Santana could bat 5th next season? It would trickle down the whole lineup.


Yep, it would be great to add a #3 or #4 hitter to push Santana down to #5 and make everybody better. Any idea who that guy is, why his current team would be willing to trade him, and who they would want in exchange from the Indians that we would be willing to give up for such a great player? .....


What if his current team DOESN'T want to trade this dynamo power hitting # 3/#4 hitter.. or.. just maybe..and perhaps more than just maybe... that guy is already here: TRAVIS HAFNER.. When PRONK is on his game..is fully healthy like he will be in 2012, he is the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink.. a ferocious middle of the lineup hitter that strikes fear into the opposition..

That's the guy that can make the difference for 2012.. and it would be a more than welcome sight to behold...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:36 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
The way to overcome this, and contend, is by adding somebody to the lineup that makes everybody else better. Woundn't it be nice if Santana could bat 5th next season? It would trickle down the whole lineup.


Yep, it would be great to add a #3 or #4 hitter to push Santana down to #5 and make everybody better.[b] Any idea who that guy is, why his current team would be willing to trade him, and who they would want in exchange from the Indians that we would be willing to give up for such a great player?


Here are a few names I would call about. Most are leaders in OPS. Some are more attractive than others. Some are even FA's. => David Wright, Kevin Youkilis (yes, there will be major changes), Jason Bay, Paul Konerko, Carlos Pena, Adam Lind, Michael Morse, among others. None of these guys are untouchable and all would look good in an Indians uniform.

What about the salaries, you ask? Remember, if you let go of the worthless Sizemore you save $9 million. Some of the salaries seem doable after that savings.
Who would I trade? My Indians untouchable list only has 2 players on it (a SP and a C). Anybody else I would trade, but it depends what I get in return, and what they can produce in 2012.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:10 pm

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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:17 pm

It has nothing to do with me, it is reality. One just has to use historical fact and look at the way winning teams are built. It doesn't take a genius, it takes a commitment from the GM and ownership.

I'm amazed at what Nolan Ryan has done to change the culture of the pitching in Texas. No baby powder with Ryan's philosophy. Throw every day, and go deep in games.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:50 pm

ironmike wrote:Here you go Geronimo ... http://deepleftfield.com/2011/10/13/joe ... you-think/


Don’t get your hopes up, Tribe fans: there’s almost no chance the Indians get Votto <=== says it all...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:00 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
What if his current team DOESN'T want to trade this dynamo power hitting # 3/#4 hitter.. or.. just maybe..and perhaps more than just maybe... that guy is already here: TRAVIS HAFNER.. When PRONK is on his game..is fully healthy like he will be in 2012, he is the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink.. a ferocious middle of the lineup hitter that strikes fear into the opposition..

That's the guy that can make the difference for 2012.. and it would be a more than welcome sight to behold...


G-mo, c'mon. I can't believe you're hanging your hat on Travis Hafner for the 2012 Season of Dreams. Anything you get out of him is a bonus, but you can't count on anything. Remember that foot injury that allowed us to get Thome? I'm sure it will be scheduled for surgery by mid-April.

CAL RIPKEN JR. - LOU GEHRIG - TRAVIS HAFNER - Which one is not like the others?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:02 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
What if his current team DOESN'T want to trade this dynamo power hitting # 3/#4 hitter.. or.. just maybe..and perhaps more than just maybe... that guy is already here: TRAVIS HAFNER.. When PRONK is on his game..is fully healthy like he will be in 2012, he is the straw that stirs the Indians offensive drink.. a ferocious middle of the lineup hitter that strikes fear into the opposition..

That's the guy that can make the difference for 2012.. and it would be a more than welcome sight to behold...


G-mo, c'mon. I can't believe you're hanging your hat on Travis Hafner for the 2012 Season of Dreams. Anything you get out of him is a bonus, but you can't count on anything. Remember that foot injury that allowed us to get Thome? I'm sure it will be scheduled for surgery by mid-April.

CAL RIPKEN JR. - LOU GEHRIG - TRAVIS HAFNER - Which one is not like the others?


Very nice Fraggle Rock (?) reference.... You can never go wrong with that..

BTW.. what hat?

IF the Indians are to meet or exceed the expectation level for 2012 that has been bandied about, then it's up to PRONK to remain healthy.. He's no longer the guy that is going to hit 42 homers with 117 RBi's while scoring 100 runs while posting a three slash line of .308/.659/1.097.. (REMEMBER THAT GUY alllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way back in 2006?) Well, he's the same guy.. A little older.. a little wiser..and, hopefully ready to have a season to remember.. If PRONK can get to 400 + AB's.. He could should be able to hit .280/.380/.880 with 22 homers, 90 RBI's and 90 runs scored.. that would be a good line to achieve.. and wouldn't be a BONUS..It would be PRONK doing what he is capable of doing, when he stays healthy..

Oh..When Cynicism is used to protect a fragile ego, isn't that really sad?.. So sad, believing optimism comes with such a steep price..... <smh>
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:12 pm

I believe Travis Hafner must be the most consistent player in Major League Baseball the last three years.

2009: 338 ABs, 16 HR, 49 RBI, .272 avg, .470 slugging %, .825 OPS
2010: 396 ABs, 13 HR, 50 RBI, .278 avg, .449 slugging %, .823 OPS
2011: 325 ABs, 13 HR, 57 RBI, .280 avg, .449 slugging %, .810 OPS

His last three seasons have been virtually identical. At his age, there's no reason to believe his last season in Cleveland will be any different. If anything he'll be more susceptible to injury than before due to another year of wear and tear.

I expect Hafner will play 90-100 games (he played in 94 last year) and put up the same numbers. Shelly Duncan will DH when Pronk doesn't play and they can also use Santana at DH to keep his bat in the lineup when he needs a break from catching.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:40 pm

If the Tribe wants to go all in for 2012, I think Kevin Youkilis would be an interesting target.

From 2008-2010 his batting average was between .305-.312 and his OPS was between .959-.975. Talk about consistent! He was a right-handed Travis Hafner in his prime.

In 2011 his numbers declined significantly to .258/.832. His ground ball/fly ball ratio was 0.74, considerably higher than his career average of 0.55. He was beating balls into the ground at a rate almost 40% higher than normal. He grounded into 14 double plays after grounding into only 4 the previous season.

Looking at his season more closely, he hit .199 after the All-Star break. He only played in 10 games after Aug. 15, so obviously he was playing hurt and finally had to shut it down. He wasn't having that bad a year until August. His OPS topped out at .888 on Aug. 3 when he doubled against Cleveland. He'll be 33 in March. Although the Red Sox used him at 3rd base after acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, he can also play first.

This guy always seemed to murder the Indians whenever we faced him prior to last year. The Red Sox need to get younger after their historic collapse. They need pitching, both starting and relief. Their team ERA was 4.20 and they had four starters with ERA's over 5.00 (Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, and Dice K).

Maybe a package of Hannahan (they'll need a 3rd baseman), Marson (Varitek is done), McAlister, Barnes, and one of our top relief prospects like Lee or Hagadone would pry him loose. I don't know what his contract status is, but if the Tribe decides to roll the dice, open the checkbook and go for an impact bat, a healthy Youkilis would fit the bill very nicely. He could be acquired for less than Votto and is right-handed, which would balance the lineup.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:30 am

Prosecutor wrote:If the Tribe wants to go all in for 2012, I think Kevin Youkilis would be an interesting target.

From 2008-2010 his batting average was between .305-.312 and his OPS was between .959-.975. Talk about consistent! He was a right-handed Travis Hafner in his prime.

In 2011 his numbers declined significantly to .258/.832. His ground ball/fly ball ratio was 0.74, considerably higher than his career average of 0.55. He was beating balls into the ground at a rate almost 40% higher than normal. He grounded into 14 double plays after grounding into only 4 the previous season.

Looking at his season more closely, he hit .199 after the All-Star break. He only played in 10 games after Aug. 15, so obviously he was playing hurt and finally had to shut it down. He wasn't having that bad a year until August. His OPS topped out at .888 on Aug. 3 when he doubled against Cleveland. He'll be 33 in March. Although the Red Sox used him at 3rd base after acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, he can also play first.

This guy always seemed to murder the Indians whenever we faced him prior to last year. The Red Sox need to get younger after their historic collapse. They need pitching, both starting and relief. Their team ERA was 4.20 and they had four starters with ERA's over 5.00 (Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, and Dice K).

Maybe a package of Hannahan (they'll need a 3rd baseman), Marson (Varitek is done), McAlister, Barnes, and one of our top relief prospects like Lee or Hagadone would pry him loose. I don't know what his contract status is, but if the Tribe decides to roll the dice, open the checkbook and go for an impact bat, a healthy Youkilis would fit the bill very nicely. He could be acquired for less than Votto and is right-handed, which would balance the lineup.



12:$12M, 13:$13M club option ($1M buyout)
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby jellis » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:41 am

Prosecutor wrote:If the Tribe wants to go all in for 2012, I think Kevin Youkilis would be an interesting target.

From 2008-2010 his batting average was between .305-.312 and his OPS was between .959-.975. Talk about consistent! He was a right-handed Travis Hafner in his prime.

In 2011 his numbers declined significantly to .258/.832. His ground ball/fly ball ratio was 0.74, considerably higher than his career average of 0.55. He was beating balls into the ground at a rate almost 40% higher than normal. He grounded into 14 double plays after grounding into only 4 the previous season.

Looking at his season more closely, he hit .199 after the All-Star break. He only played in 10 games after Aug. 15, so obviously he was playing hurt and finally had to shut it down. He wasn't having that bad a year until August. His OPS topped out at .888 on Aug. 3 when he doubled against Cleveland. He'll be 33 in March. Although the Red Sox used him at 3rd base after acquiring Adrian Gonzalez, he can also play first.

This guy always seemed to murder the Indians whenever we faced him prior to last year. The Red Sox need to get younger after their historic collapse. They need pitching, both starting and relief. Their team ERA was 4.20 and they had four starters with ERA's over 5.00 (Wakefield, Lackey, Miller, and Dice K).

Maybe a package of Hannahan (they'll need a 3rd baseman), Marson (Varitek is done), McAlister, Barnes, and one of our top relief prospects like Lee or Hagadone would pry him loose. I don't know what his contract status is, but if the Tribe decides to roll the dice, open the checkbook and go for an impact bat, a healthy Youkilis would fit the bill very nicely. He could be acquired for less than Votto and is right-handed, which would balance the lineup.



Hannahan has no trade value, any deal for Youk would cost Raffie, Macallister, Wolters, and one more major spec, had a down year but I doubt he comes cheap.

PS on the pronk talk, check the numbers he is basically a singles hitter, his percentage was extremely high, he is more or less a slap hitter and if they can convince any team that a 800 OPS DH would help them he should be traded.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:13 am

Prosecutor wrote:I believe Travis Hafner must be the most consistent player in Major League Baseball the last three years.

2009: 338 ABs, 16 HR, 49 RBI, .272 avg, .470 slugging %, .825 OPS
2010: 396 ABs, 13 HR, 50 RBI, .278 avg, .449 slugging %, .823 OPS
2011: 325 ABs, 13 HR, 57 RBI, .280 avg, .449 slugging %, .810 OPS

His last three seasons have been virtually identical. At his age, there's no reason to believe his last season in Cleveland will be any different. If anything he'll be more susceptible to injury than before due to another year of wear and tear.

I expect Hafner will play 90-100 games (he played in 94 last year) and put up the same numbers. Shelly Duncan will DH when Pronk doesn't play and they can also use Santana at DH to keep his bat in the lineup when he needs a break from catching.

Unfortunately, from everything we have seen for three years, Hafner does not have the health or the bat speed to be Pronk again. The indians will probably be fortunate to have the same numbers with his age and the injury prone nature of his body. I would be surprised if Hafner gets more ABs than Duncan who can at least defend poorly. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:30 am

Hannahan has no trade value, any deal for Youk would cost Raffie, Macallister, Wolters, and one more major spec, had a down year but I doubt he comes cheap.

PS on the pronk talk, check the numbers he is basically a singles hitter, his percentage was extremely high, he is more or less a slap hitter and if they can convince any team that a 800 OPS DH would help them he should be traded.
jellis


Hafner is the one with no trade value, thanks to that $13 million contract. That, along with his lack of power and inability to play more than 100 games makes him untradable, unless we want to take on a similar contract for a less productive player.

I included Hannahan in the Youkilis trade because the Sox will need a 3rd baseman if they trade Youk. Hannahan is one of a number of Indians players, including Santana, LaPorta, and Duncan, who hit better the second half of the season after Field took over as the batting coach. Hannahan had the most dramatic splits:

Pre All-Star: .222/.660
Post All-Star: .322/.871
Overall: .250/.719

I wouldn't say that a Gold Glove 3rd baseman who hits .250/.771 (and could do better next year based on his second half performance) has no trade value, especially since he's very affordable, unlike Hafner. He's not going to be a major piece, but any team in need of a starting 3rd baseman could do much worse than Hannahan, especially if they already have a lot of offense at other positions, like the Red Sox.

I would readily give up Raffie, McAlister, Wolters, and a prospect for Youkilis. Raffie can be replaced by Hagadone. McAlister looks like a #4 or #5 starter to me. I don't think he'll be in the rotation this year (it will be Jimenez, Masterson, Carmona, Tomlin, and Gomez), and in 2013 we have Barnes, Rondon, and Carrasco contending for spots. Wolters is several years away from the bigs. A healthy Youkilis will hit .300/.960 and give the Tribe the power right-handed bat it desparately needs. By declining Grady's option the Tribe saves $8.5 million, which will mostly pay for Youkilis.

How about this lineup?

Brantley LF
Asdrubal SS
Choo RF
Youkilis 1B
Santana C
Hafner DH
Kipnis 2B
Chisenhall 3b
Carerra CF
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