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Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:27 am

Hermie13 wrote:For what it's worth, mlbdepthcharts.com has Santana starting at 1B and Marson behind the plate as well. I'm not a huge fan of Santana moving from behind the plate (yet), but does seem like a better bet than counting on LaPorta opening day, at least right now...


I think that unless the Indians add a big bat at 1B, then Santana has to start 4 days a week at 1B. It's not about saving his legs but more about having him in the lineup 150+ games.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:59 pm

So we're getting towards the end of January with not much to show for it. Wanted to throw out a few names, see what others thought. Feel free to add names or rip these ones...


1. Casey Kotchman - 1B, Free Agent
I know his power isn't there, but he is still an upgrade as of now to what the Indians have. Brings solid defense. Plus as I mentioned before, there really aren't many destinations left that make sense for him. I'd offer $2M and maybe throw some incentives in. Really don't think he'll end up with a better offer at this juncture.

2. Yoenis Cespedes - OF, Free Agent
Yeah this one is pipe dream but he's available and the Tribe has been linked, so figured why not include him. Fills several needs for the Tribe in theory. Cons include lack of experience against upper level talent...not to mention the cost in money. Won't say it's impossible (Reds did land Chapman)...but close to a one in a million...

3. Carlos Lee - OF/1B, Astros
RH bat that can hit lefties, solid plate discipline, and has some power. Fills a big need in all those regards. Problem is his defense is not very good, he's aging and had a terrible season just 2 seaosns ago, makes $18.5M, and has a no-trade clause. Even if the Astros throw in enough money...may be a moot point if he doesn't want to come.

4. Mark Reynolds - 3B/1B, Orioles
I know most will scream "hell no" here due to the insanely high strikeout rates and his god-awful defense....but the Tribe did just show substantial interest in Carlos Pena who strikes out a ton as well, and also showed interest in Upton (also a big strikeout guy). Reynolds is obviously worse than either in that regard....but he also brings a lot to the table that can interest the Tribe. There is no denying his power, plain and simple. He's averaged 35 HRs over the past 4 seasons (all 4 of his full big league seasons actually). Not many others can lay claim to that kind of power. His OBP isn't terrible either considering all the strikeouts as he do a good job at drawing walks with at least 75 each of the past 3 seasons. He can hit lefties decent enough too. Defense is obviously another big negative...but in Cleveland, he'll never have to play 3B. He looked shaky at 1B (putting it lightly) last year, but he was moved mid-season. With some work he could become livable there IMO (though think the OF is where he should go). Makes $7.5M or so....probably too high for the Tribe but could maybe get the O's to eat a bit or move a guy like Raffy Perez to free up some dough.

5. Kurt Suzuki - C, Athletics
First want to say I am for keeping Santana behind the plate in 2012. I think with a fully healthy spring training that he can become above average behind the plate (showed improvement as the year went on IMO). Still play some 1B but keep him as the starting catcher. That said....his bat will play at 1B or anywhere. I truely believe he'll put up 35-40 HRs this year and a .380+ OBP, which would make him one of the best 1B's offesnively in baseball. Problem is Marson can't really start everyday behind the plate with how he's hit righties; you'd need to add a catcher. Suzuki is not without fault...but he is a solid reciever/game manager who does have some pop (above 15 HRs the last 3 years from the catching spot is very solid) and isn't that overpriced at $5M this year. He actually hits righties better than lefties so could fit in with Marson nicely. Would improve the defense behind the plate without hurting the offense a ton, plus vastly improves the offesnse at 1B (and probably the defense). A's are moving everyone it seems....Suzuki could be next.

Thoughts?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:So we're getting towards the end of January with not much to show for it. Wanted to throw out a few names, see what others thought. Feel free to add names or rip these ones...


1. Casey Kotchman - 1B, Free Agent
I know his power isn't there, but he is still an upgrade as of now to what the Indians have. Brings solid defense. Plus as I mentioned before, there really aren't many destinations left that make sense for him. I'd offer $2M and maybe throw some incentives in. Really don't think he'll end up with a better offer at this juncture.

2. Yoenis Cespedes - OF, Free Agent
Yeah this one is pipe dream but he's available and the Tribe has been linked, so figured why not include him. Fills several needs for the Tribe in theory. Cons include lack of experience against upper level talent...not to mention the cost in money. Won't say it's impossible (Reds did land Chapman)...but close to a one in a million...

3. Carlos Lee - OF/1B, Astros
RH bat that can hit lefties, solid plate discipline, and has some power. Fills a big need in all those regards. Problem is his defense is not very good, he's aging and had a terrible season just 2 seaosns ago, makes $18.5M, and has a no-trade clause. Even if the Astros throw in enough money...may be a moot point if he doesn't want to come.

4. Mark Reynolds - 3B/1B, Orioles
I know most will scream "hell no" here due to the insanely high strikeout rates and his god-awful defense....but the Tribe did just show substantial interest in Carlos Pena who strikes out a ton as well, and also showed interest in Upton (also a big strikeout guy). Reynolds is obviously worse than either in that regard....but he also brings a lot to the table that can interest the Tribe. There is no denying his power, plain and simple. He's averaged 35 HRs over the past 4 seasons (all 4 of his full big league seasons actually). Not many others can lay claim to that kind of power. His OBP isn't terrible either considering all the strikeouts as he do a good job at drawing walks with at least 75 each of the past 3 seasons. He can hit lefties decent enough too. Defense is obviously another big negative...but in Cleveland, he'll never have to play 3B. He looked shaky at 1B (putting it lightly) last year, but he was moved mid-season. With some work he could become livable there IMO (though think the OF is where he should go). Makes $7.5M or so....probably too high for the Tribe but could maybe get the O's to eat a bit or move a guy like Raffy Perez to free up some dough.

5. Kurt Suzuki - C, Athletics
First want to say I am for keeping Santana behind the plate in 2012. I think with a fully healthy spring training that he can become above average behind the plate (showed improvement as the year went on IMO). Still play some 1B but keep him as the starting catcher. That said....his bat will play at 1B or anywhere. I truely believe he'll put up 35-40 HRs this year and a .380+ OBP, which would make him one of the best 1B's offesnively in baseball. Problem is Marson can't really start everyday behind the plate with how he's hit righties; you'd need to add a catcher. Suzuki is not without fault...but he is a solid reciever/game manager who does have some pop (above 15 HRs the last 3 years from the catching spot is very solid) and isn't that overpriced at $5M this year. He actually hits righties better than lefties so could fit in with Marson nicely. Would improve the defense behind the plate without hurting the offense a ton, plus vastly improves the offesnse at 1B (and probably the defense). A's are moving everyone it seems....Suzuki could be next.

Thoughts?


I'm for Yoenis if we can get him for a decent contract but I don't want to commit a lot of $$$ and years to someone who hasn't faced ML pitching (or the equivalent). Reynolds would be an upgrade that I can buy into his power would be worth the K's (scoring guys from 1B or the batters box is a solid attribute). Carlos Lee if the 'Stro's pick up a lot of his contract and it only costs a 2nd tier prospect. I'm not really interested in Kotchman or Suzuki or Derek Lee (not on your list) because I just see that as throwing away cash or prospects and cash.
Last edited by daingean on Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:30 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:So we're getting towards the end of January with not much to show for it. Wanted to throw out a few names, see what others thought. Feel free to add names or rip these ones...


1. Casey Kotchman - 1B, Free Agent
I know his power isn't there, but he is still an upgrade as of now to what the Indians have. Brings solid defense. Plus as I mentioned before, there really aren't many destinations left that make sense for him. I'd offer $2M and maybe throw some incentives in. Really don't think he'll end up with a better offer at this juncture.

2. Yoenis Cespedes - OF, Free Agent
Yeah this one is pipe dream but he's available and the Tribe has been linked, so figured why not include him. Fills several needs for the Tribe in theory. Cons include lack of experience against upper level talent...not to mention the cost in money. Won't say it's impossible (Reds did land Chapman)...but close to a one in a million...

3. Carlos Lee - OF/1B, Astros
RH bat that can hit lefties, solid plate discipline, and has some power. Fills a big need in all those regards. Problem is his defense is not very good, he's aging and had a terrible season just 2 seaosns ago, makes $18.5M, and has a no-trade clause. Even if the Astros throw in enough money...may be a moot point if he doesn't want to come.

4. Mark Reynolds - 3B/1B, Orioles
I know most will scream "hell no" here due to the insanely high strikeout rates and his god-awful defense....but the Tribe did just show substantial interest in Carlos Pena who strikes out a ton as well, and also showed interest in Upton (also a big strikeout guy). Reynolds is obviously worse than either in that regard....but he also brings a lot to the table that can interest the Tribe. There is no denying his power, plain and simple. He's averaged 35 HRs over the past 4 seasons (all 4 of his full big league seasons actually). Not many others can lay claim to that kind of power. His OBP isn't terrible either considering all the strikeouts as he do a good job at drawing walks with at least 75 each of the past 3 seasons. He can hit lefties decent enough too. Defense is obviously another big negative...but in Cleveland, he'll never have to play 3B. He looked shaky at 1B (putting it lightly) last year, but he was moved mid-season. With some work he could become livable there IMO (though think the OF is where he should go). Makes $7.5M or so....probably too high for the Tribe but could maybe get the O's to eat a bit or move a guy like Raffy Perez to free up some dough.

5. Kurt Suzuki - C, Athletics
First want to say I am for keeping Santana behind the plate in 2012. I think with a fully healthy spring training that he can become above average behind the plate (showed improvement as the year went on IMO). Still play some 1B but keep him as the starting catcher. That said....his bat will play at 1B or anywhere. I truely believe he'll put up 35-40 HRs this year and a .380+ OBP, which would make him one of the best 1B's offesnively in baseball. Problem is Marson can't really start everyday behind the plate with how he's hit righties; you'd need to add a catcher. Suzuki is not without fault...but he is a solid reciever/game manager who does have some pop (above 15 HRs the last 3 years from the catching spot is very solid) and isn't that overpriced at $5M this year. He actually hits righties better than lefties so could fit in with Marson nicely. Would improve the defense behind the plate without hurting the offense a ton, plus vastly improves the offesnse at 1B (and probably the defense). A's are moving everyone it seems....Suzuki could be next.

Thoughts?


I'm or Yoenis if we can get him for a decent contract but I don't want to commit a lot of $$$ and years to someone who hasn't faced ML pitching (or the equivalent). Reynolds would be an upgrade that I can buy into his power would be worth the K's (scoring guys from 1B or the batters box is a solid attribute). Carlos Lee if the 'Stro's pick up a lot of his contract and it only costs a 2nd tier prospect. I'm not really interested in Kotchman or Suzuki or Derek Lee (not on your list) because I just see that as throwing away cash or prospects and cash.



Of the list - only Cepedes is the one I am interested in but (not on the list) Solder might be worth looking into as well, not for this year's ML but this year isn't looking so hot right now...

1. Kotchman - I fail to see how he would be an imrovement over Santana at 1B and Marson at C - bad for indians having to Carlos at 1B - but this is a business and you gotta do what you gotta do. Also Duncan/Hannahan figure in here too.
2. Cepedes - prolly cant get him - $$$$ have to think the Marlins will. However at this point I play big and at least try to run his price up.

So Cepedes or hold steady and wait till May-June. Thats my take.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:28 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Of the list - only Cepedes is the one I am interested in but (not on the list) Solder might be worth looking into as well, not for this year's ML but this year isn't looking so hot right now...

1. Kotchman - I fail to see how he would be an imrovement over Santana at 1B and Marson at C - bad for indians having to Carlos at 1B - but this is a business and you gotta do what you gotta do. Also Duncan/Hannahan figure in here too.

So Cepedes or hold steady and wait till May-June. Thats my take.


I am a fan of soler too. I disnt include him because he will need time in AAA and wont help the Tribe in 2012. He is like an extra first round draft pick to me as opposed to a guy that will help win us the division this year.

As far as kotchman......how is he not an improvement over marson offensively? Kotchman posted an OPS of .838 last year against righties. Marson posted a .474 OPS against righties. I really like Marson but he cant start against righties very often.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:14 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Of the list - only Cepedes is the one I am interested in but (not on the list) Solder might be worth looking into as well, not for this year's ML but this year isn't looking so hot right now...

1. Kotchman - I fail to see how he would be an imrovement over Santana at 1B and Marson at C - bad for indians having to Carlos at 1B - but this is a business and you gotta do what you gotta do. Also Duncan/Hannahan figure in here too.

So Cepedes or hold steady and wait till May-June. Thats my take.


I am a fan of soler too. I disnt include him because he will need time in AAA and wont help the Tribe in 2012. He is like an extra first round draft pick to me as opposed to a guy that will help win us the division this year.

As far as kotchman......how is he not an improvement over marson offensively? Kotchman posted an OPS of .838 last year against righties. Marson posted a .474 OPS against righties. I really like Marson but he cant start against righties very often.


I will agreee Kotchman is currently a better offensive player than Marson. But really doubt that a daily line up of Kotchman at 1B and Santana at C will be so much better than Santana at 1B and Marson at C that it will make much (if any) of a difference. Besides I rather find out how much of a major leaguer Marson is now that Detroit has Fielder and we haven't really improved this off-season.

Besides in a way I was going with the flow - ideally in my world I would have Duncan at 1B against righties and Santana behind the plate and Santana at 1B and Marson at C against lefties in most cases. I'd give Duncan as much of a shot to be the "everyday" 1B as much as would give Marson the shot to be the "everyday" catcher.

A lot of myterious possible options for 1B in house and really if yr swinging a hot bat and your name is Donald, Duncan, Cunningham, Hannahan etc. you could see a lot of playing time at first.

The words "everyday player" might become a pretty loose term in 2012 for the tribe.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:23 pm

criznit2009 wrote:I will agreee Kotchman is currently a better offensive player than Marson. But really doubt that a daily line up of Kotchman at 1B and Santana at C will be so much better than Santana at 1B and Marson at C that it will make much (if any) of a difference. Besides I rather find out how much of a major leaguer Marson is now that Detroit has Fielder and we haven't really improved this off-season.

Besides in a way I was going with the flow - ideally in my world I would have Duncan at 1B against righties and Santana behind the plate and Santana at 1B and Marson at C against lefties in most cases. I'd give Duncan as much of a shot to be the "everyday" 1B as much as would give Marson the shot to be the "everyday" catcher.

A lot of myterious possible options for 1B in house and really if yr swinging a hot bat and your name is Donald, Duncan, Cunningham, Hannahan etc. you could see a lot of playing time at first.

The words "everyday player" might become a pretty loose term in 2012 for the tribe.


+1 I don't see that Kotchman is that much better than using Santana at 1B (4 days a week) and Marson C (4 days a week) with a matchup decision on the other 2-3 days. My point being is that Santana could be in the line up 150+ games in 2012 with that rotation while only about 130 games in the opposite rotation (I thing the 4 days at catcher will either wear Carlos down and/or make him have to sit out). 10-20 games w/o Carlos (at his best) can make a big difference in the standings. If we acquired a 1B that could produce similar stats to Carlos then I'm okay with him at C but we don't and Kotchman doesn't supply that.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:So we're getting towards the end of January with not much to show for it. Wanted to throw out a few names, see what others thought. Feel free to add names or rip these ones...


1. Casey Kotchman - 1B, Free Agent
I know his power isn't there, but he is still an upgrade as of now to what the Indians have. Brings solid defense. Plus as I mentioned before, there really aren't many destinations left that make sense for him. I'd offer $2M and maybe throw some incentives in. Really don't think he'll end up with a better offer at this juncture.

2. Yoenis Cespedes - OF, Free Agent
Yeah this one is pipe dream but he's available and the Tribe has been linked, so figured why not include him. Fills several needs for the Tribe in theory. Cons include lack of experience against upper level talent...not to mention the cost in money. Won't say it's impossible (Reds did land Chapman)...but close to a one in a million...

3. Carlos Lee - OF/1B, Astros
RH bat that can hit lefties, solid plate discipline, and has some power. Fills a big need in all those regards. Problem is his defense is not very good, he's aging and had a terrible season just 2 seaosns ago, makes $18.5M, and has a no-trade clause. Even if the Astros throw in enough money...may be a moot point if he doesn't want to come.

4. Mark Reynolds - 3B/1B, Orioles
I know most will scream "hell no" here due to the insanely high strikeout rates and his god-awful defense....but the Tribe did just show substantial interest in Carlos Pena who strikes out a ton as well, and also showed interest in Upton (also a big strikeout guy). Reynolds is obviously worse than either in that regard....but he also brings a lot to the table that can interest the Tribe. There is no denying his power, plain and simple. He's averaged 35 HRs over the past 4 seasons (all 4 of his full big league seasons actually). Not many others can lay claim to that kind of power. His OBP isn't terrible either considering all the strikeouts as he do a good job at drawing walks with at least 75 each of the past 3 seasons. He can hit lefties decent enough too. Defense is obviously another big negative...but in Cleveland, he'll never have to play 3B. He looked shaky at 1B (putting it lightly) last year, but he was moved mid-season. With some work he could become livable there IMO (though think the OF is where he should go). Makes $7.5M or so....probably too high for the Tribe but could maybe get the O's to eat a bit or move a guy like Raffy Perez to free up some dough.

5. Kurt Suzuki - C, Athletics
First want to say I am for keeping Santana behind the plate in 2012. I think with a fully healthy spring training that he can become above average behind the plate (showed improvement as the year went on IMO). Still play some 1B but keep him as the starting catcher. That said....his bat will play at 1B or anywhere. I truely believe he'll put up 35-40 HRs this year and a .380+ OBP, which would make him one of the best 1B's offesnively in baseball. Problem is Marson can't really start everyday behind the plate with how he's hit righties; you'd need to add a catcher. Suzuki is not without fault...but he is a solid reciever/game manager who does have some pop (above 15 HRs the last 3 years from the catching spot is very solid) and isn't that overpriced at $5M this year. He actually hits righties better than lefties so could fit in with Marson nicely. Would improve the defense behind the plate without hurting the offense a ton, plus vastly improves the offesnse at 1B (and probably the defense). A's are moving everyone it seems....Suzuki could be next.

Thoughts?


I guess I'm in the minority, but my vote is for Carlos Lee. A middle of the lineup with Choo-Lee-Santana-Hafner sounds good to me on paper. (I really don't want Santana to bat 4th this year.) I think there should be plenty of RBI opportunities with Bradley-Kipnis-ACab on base a lot.
I would have to have the Astros eat a little more than 50% of the contract. I'm not sure what they would want in return. (Maybe the rights to Roberto Heredia).

If that doesn't work out, then Kotchman. But I wouldn't offer much. We might be bidding against ourselves.

Cespades I would go strong after. But I don't consider him a MLB prospect for 2012. If it works out, fine. But I think it would be more likely he would be ready in 2013.

As for the rest of them; I'll take LaPorta.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:59 pm

Indians signed Dan Wheeler to a minor league deal.

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Indians signed RHP Dan Wheeler to Minors contract w/ spring invite. Also signed: RHP Jose De La Torre & INF Ryan Rohlinger. No invites.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:32 pm

daingean wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I will agreee Kotchman is currently a better offensive player than Marson. But really doubt that a daily line up of Kotchman at 1B and Santana at C will be so much better than Santana at 1B and Marson at C that it will make much (if any) of a difference. Besides I rather find out how much of a major leaguer Marson is now that Detroit has Fielder and we haven't really improved this off-season.

Besides in a way I was going with the flow - ideally in my world I would have Duncan at 1B against righties and Santana behind the plate and Santana at 1B and Marson at C against lefties in most cases. I'd give Duncan as much of a shot to be the "everyday" 1B as much as would give Marson the shot to be the "everyday" catcher.

A lot of myterious possible options for 1B in house and really if yr swinging a hot bat and your name is Donald, Duncan, Cunningham, Hannahan etc. you could see a lot of playing time at first.

The words "everyday player" might become a pretty loose term in 2012 for the tribe.


+1 I don't see that Kotchman is that much better than using Santana at 1B (4 days a week) and Marson C (4 days a week) with a matchup decision on the other 2-3 days. My point being is that Santana could be in the line up 150+ games in 2012 with that rotation while only about 130 games in the opposite rotation (I thing the 4 days at catcher will either wear Carlos down and/or make him have to sit out). 10-20 games w/o Carlos (at his best) can make a big difference in the standings. If we acquired a 1B that could produce similar stats to Carlos then I'm okay with him at C but we don't and Kotchman doesn't supply that.


I guess I don't understand this. Why would you think it would wear him out to the point of only being able to play 130 games? He played in over 150 last year while catching more often than not. No matter what the Tribe were to do this winter, Santana will play in 150 games (barring injury) if not more. Wouldn't matter if we brought in no one, Kotchman, Pena, or hell even Prince Fielder or Albert Pujols. You can NOT sit Santana more than a handful of games no matter what.

Don't see how signing Kotchman has any effect on the number of games Santana plays in 2012. Will only change the position he plays more.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:40 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I guess I'm in the minority, but my vote is for Carlos Lee. A middle of the lineup with Choo-Lee-Santana-Hafner sounds good to me on paper. (I really don't want Santana to bat 4th this year.) I think there should be plenty of RBI opportunities with Bradley-Kipnis-ACab on base a lot.
I would have to have the Astros eat a little more than 50% of the contract. I'm not sure what they would want in return. (Maybe the rights to Roberto Heredia).

If that doesn't work out, then Kotchman. But I wouldn't offer much. We might be bidding against ourselves.

Cespades I would go strong after. But I don't consider him a MLB prospect for 2012. If it works out, fine. But I think it would be more likely he would be ready in 2013.

As for the rest of them; I'll take LaPorta.


You can make a case Lee is the best of the group I put forth...I just don't think there's that great a chance that he'll agree to a deal here. Hope I'm wrong though.

Do disagree on your Lineup though. Santana should hit no worse than 4th, possibly should hit 3rd. He's the best offensive weapon we have. If we acrquired Lee he should hit behind Santana IMO as to provide protection.

I agree on the Kotchman thing. i think he's gonna get a lot less than most think. Hell, when the offseason began most thought it was all but certain Pena would get a 2 year deal for at least $10M a year. He signed a 1 yr deal for only $7M and change. Kotchman may not even get $2M.

Fair enough on LaPorta I guess....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:41 pm

Really, with how often Santana walks, he should hit either 2nd or 3rd so that he helps in setting up for guys like Choo and Hafner.. My vote is third, but he really shouldn't be anywhere past cleanup.

I'm a fan of Carlos Lee, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. If Santana plays 90 games at Catcher this year, he would be playing roughly 60-70 games at 1B (depending on health). So, if everyone is healthy, the Indians are talking about a guy who would play AT MOST 90 games at 1B, and I'm thinking Lee's contract doesn't make sense for that. They might get some games at DH, but unless you're basically assuming that Hafner gets hurt, there's not going to be that many more games for Lee there. And I'll pass on seeing Lee try to take the outfield this year.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:33 pm

Edible14 wrote:Really, with how often Santana walks, he should hit either 2nd or 3rd so that he helps in setting up for guys like Choo and Hafner.. My vote is third, but he really shouldn't be anywhere past cleanup.

I'm a fan of Carlos Lee, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. If Santana plays 90 games at Catcher this year, he would be playing roughly 60-70 games at 1B (depending on health). So, if everyone is healthy, the Indians are talking about a guy who would play AT MOST 90 games at 1B, and I'm thinking Lee's contract doesn't make sense for that. They might get some games at DH, but unless you're basically assuming that Hafner gets hurt, there's not going to be that many more games for Lee there. And I'll pass on seeing Lee try to take the outfield this year.


I think you can count on one hand home many people aren't assuming Hafner gets hurt at some point this year though...

I also think ideally the Indians would want Santana playing a lot less than 70 games at 1B. If they add the right 1B, they are probably looking at 110-120 games with him behind the plate.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:46 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Really, with how often Santana walks, he should hit either 2nd or 3rd so that he helps in setting up for guys like Choo and Hafner.. My vote is third, but he really shouldn't be anywhere past cleanup.

I'm a fan of Carlos Lee, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. If Santana plays 90 games at Catcher this year, he would be playing roughly 60-70 games at 1B (depending on health). So, if everyone is healthy, the Indians are talking about a guy who would play AT MOST 90 games at 1B, and I'm thinking Lee's contract doesn't make sense for that. They might get some games at DH, but unless you're basically assuming that Hafner gets hurt, there's not going to be that many more games for Lee there. And I'll pass on seeing Lee try to take the outfield this year.


I think you can count on one hand home many people aren't assuming Hafner gets hurt at some point this year though...

I also think ideally the Indians would want Santana playing a lot than 70 games at 1B. If they add the right 1B, they are probably looking at 110-120 games with him behind the plate.


I've heard this plan where Marson starts at C against LHP, and Santana goes to 1B. I just don't see it happening on a consistent basis. I can see Marson becoming somebody's personal catcher. He would start every time that particular SP goes.
It just sure would be nice to have a RH bat like Lee. Otherwise our lineup is just too LH. Teams would call up a LHP from the minors, just to make a start against us.

BTW, heard a good one. Q: What's the only way to beat the Tigers next year?
A: Hit a ground ball to an infielder. :s_laughat
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:56 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:I've heard this plan where Marson starts at C against LHP, and Santana goes to 1B. I just don't see it happening on a consistent basis. I can see Marson becoming somebody's personal catcher. He would start every time that particular SP goes.
It just sure would be nice to have a RH bat like Lee. Otherwise our lineup is just too LH. Teams would call up a LHP from the minors, just to make a start against us.

BTW, heard a good one. Q: What's the only way to beat the Tigers next year?
A: Hit a ground ball to an infielder. :s_laughat


Hmm, possible on the personal catcher thing but I thought Acta said a while ago he wasn't a big fan of that? Definitely seems wise to play Marson against lefties though.

If teams are gonna start calling up lefties from AAA to face I say good. Tribe was actually not that much worse offensively against lefties last year than against righties.

Against lefties (AL rank in parentheses): .258 AVG (10th), .325 OBP (10th), .384 SLG (11th), .708 OPS (11th), 211 runs scored (7th), 203 RBI (7th)

Against righties: .247 AVG (10th), .314 OBP (9th), .403 SLG(8th), .716 OPS (8th), 493 runs scored (9th), 468 RBIs (9th)

That's right, Indians actually hit better and had a higher team OBP against lefties than righties last year. Power was the big drop off (so a guy like Lee would be a benefit). But as you can see, opposing teams really don't need to be bringing up some lefty starter from AAA. Their ML righties will do just as well.


lol, nice Detroit joke though. :drinks:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I guess I don't understand this. Why would you think it would wear him out to the point of only being able to play 130 games? He played in over 150 last year while catching more often than not. No matter what the Tribe were to do this winter, Santana will play in 150 games (barring injury) if not more. Wouldn't matter if we brought in no one, Kotchman, Pena, or hell even Prince Fielder or Albert Pujols. You can NOT sit Santana more than a handful of games no matter what.

Don't see how signing Kotchman has any effect on the number of games Santana plays in 2012. Will only change the position he plays more.


I'm basing my assumptions on what it happens with similar players (i.e. McCann, V-Mart, Javy Lopez) by that I mean catchers who are real valuable offensively to their teams offense. To think Carlos can do that year in and year out is imo unrealistic.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:39 pm

daingean wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I guess I don't understand this. Why would you think it would wear him out to the point of only being able to play 130 games? He played in over 150 last year while catching more often than not. No matter what the Tribe were to do this winter, Santana will play in 150 games (barring injury) if not more. Wouldn't matter if we brought in no one, Kotchman, Pena, or hell even Prince Fielder or Albert Pujols. You can NOT sit Santana more than a handful of games no matter what.

Don't see how signing Kotchman has any effect on the number of games Santana plays in 2012. Will only change the position he plays more.


I'm basing my assumptions on what it happens with similar players (i.e. McCann, V-Mart, Javy Lopez) by that I mean catchers who are real valuable offensively to their teams offense. To think Carlos can do that year in and year out is imo unrealistic.


hmm, I suppose maybe you have a point with Vic, but neither McCann nor Lopez ever started or has started a Major League game at 1B, so they so they really aren't good comps for Santana. Both those guys were catchers only so their rest days were on the bench. Vic moved to 1B in 2007 at times not because of wearing down but to keep his bat in the lineup more. Did get hurt in 2008 but seems as though he's just more of an injury prone player than Santana. Santana has had 2 injuries recently, neither seems that in line with injury prone (hamate bone happens all the time, the knee was pretty freakish).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:02 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I think you can count on one hand home many people aren't assuming Hafner gets hurt at some point this year though...

I also think ideally the Indians would want Santana playing a lot less than 70 games at 1B. If they add the right 1B, they are probably looking at 110-120 games with him behind the plate.


As was pointed out upthread, there's not a whole lot of catchers who catch that many games in a season. While I don't really care about "saving his knees" or anything like that, I think what he did last year (88 starts at C, 63 at 1B) is likely what you're going to get going forward. I think about 100 would be tops for him this season, given what the Indians' track record is with him. But I'm not an insider, so I don't know. Though, I guess that Victor was catching that many games when he was here, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:10 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I think you can count on one hand home many people aren't assuming Hafner gets hurt at some point this year though...

I also think ideally the Indians would want Santana playing a lot less than 70 games at 1B. If they add the right 1B, they are probably looking at 110-120 games with him behind the plate.


As was pointed out upthread, there's not a whole lot of catchers who catch that many games in a season. While I don't really care about "saving his knees" or anything like that, I think what he did last year (88 starts at C, 63 at 1B) is likely what you're going to get going forward. I think about 100 would be tops for him this season, given what the Indians' track record is with him. But I'm not an insider, so I don't know. Though, I guess that Victor was catching that many games when he was here, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.


14 out of 30 catchers started at least 110 games behind the plate last year. While I think you could see Santana only around 85-90 games behind the plate, it will depend on how our 1B plays. If LaPorta plays better, Santana is behind the plate a lot more but still plays 150 games. If the Tribe gets a 1B that plays well, Santana will be behind the plate a lot more than last year but still will get into over 150 games....barring injury (knock on wood).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:41 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I'm basing my assumptions on what it happens with similar players (i.e. McCann, V-Mart, Javy Lopez) by that I mean catchers who are real valuable offensively to their teams offense. To think Carlos can do that year in and year out is imo unrealistic.


hmm, I suppose maybe you have a point with Vic, but neither McCann nor Lopez ever started or has started a Major League game at 1B, so they so they really aren't good comps for Santana. Both those guys were catchers only so their rest days were on the bench. Vic moved to 1B in 2007 at times not because of wearing down but to keep his bat in the lineup more. Did get hurt in 2008 but seems as though he's just more of an injury prone player than Santana. Santana has had 2 injuries recently, neither seems that in line with injury prone (hamate bone happens all the time, the knee was pretty freakish).[/quote]

I was more making reference to teams with C that are important cogs and quite frankly the Indians and the Braves are the 2 teams that I watch the most. Yes, McCann and Lopez didn't play first base but I was referring to the importance of that hitter. When McCann is on the bench for the Braves they are not the same team and when Santana is on the bench the same with the Indians. My desire is to see Santana in the line up the most times and fresh (I know McCann wore down a ton and had a horrible September for the Braves this year - that is one of the reasons that the Braves missed out on the wild card after having a 10+ game lead in September).
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:44 pm

daingean wrote:I was more making reference to teams with C that are important cogs and quite frankly the Indians and the Braves are the 2 teams that I watch the most. Yes, McCann and Lopez didn't play first base but I was referring to the importance of that hitter. When McCann is on the bench for the Braves they are not the same team and when Santana is on the bench the same with the Indians. My desire is to see Santana in the line up the most times and fresh (I know McCann wore down a ton and had a horrible September for the Braves this year - that is one of the reasons that the Braves missed out on the wild card after having a 10+ game lead in September).


Ok fair enough. Guess I still don't see what any 1B we sign has to do with Santana though. Big difference with the Braves is there is no DH in the NL. Tribe could easily slide whatever 1B they sign to the DH spot and play Santana...or if they even wanted, DH Santana sometimes. He can still catch as much as guys like McCann and Lopez did, but play in more games thanks to the flexibility the AL, and in particular the Indians right now, offer. One thing with McCann too is that he has waaaay more miles on his knees as a catcher. He came up a catcher, was one throughout his minor league career (DHed some) and has over 1000 starts behind the plate as a pro....Santana has less than 450 starts behind the plate in his life. Santana should have a few more years IMO before he starts really wearing down. I do think at some point the Tribe may have to consider moving him from behind the plate...but i just don't have enough confidence in Marson to start more than 40-50 games in a year we really want to win. Don't see his defense being enough to overcome his extreme lack of ability at hitting righties, who he would be facing three quarters of the time. To me the Indians need to upgrade 1B...or bring in a starting catcher to start over Marson (if you want Santana playing more 1B than catching)...hence my Suzuki suggestion...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:04 am

Like your list Hermie. I think I would go with the one year to Carlos Lee IFhe will forego his no trade to Cleveland and can be had for Carmona's $7M and limited prospect cost. Maybe that is too much to ask but there are too many issues with the others IMO. As much as I hate to give up IF defense, I do not believe he will be as bad as LaPorta, Duncan and Santana. No guarantee though. Depending on what ST shows, it might make some other defensive decisions easier. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:56 am

From the wire services today ... GM Chris Antonetti tried to change the makeup by offering Carlos Beltran a two-year, $24 million contract. Beltran signed with St. Louis. He also tried to work a deal for the Yankees' Nick Swisher, but to date nothing has come of it.

I certainly like the type of players Antonetti values. He's on the right track and it is just a matter of time before he gets the player or players we need.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:41 am

A few comments..
... Santana should have a few more years IMO before he starts really wearing down. I do think at some point the Tribe may have to consider moving him from behind the plate..
Those few years are the time Carlos has to learn his craft as a ML catcher. With his limited time behind the dish throughout his career, this will be an uphill struggle.

...it might make some other defensive decisions easier..

While having good defense does wonders for run prevention, having a mighty stick supercedes this need. Look at the Tigers Infield projected for the 2012: three statues and a utility infielder.. The Tigers have chosen to score runs.. lot of them.. and rely on only adequate defense. The only places the Tigers may be considered strong defensively is behind the dish and in CF...

The moral of the story.. if you can hit.. you can play.. If you can't hit, then your defense matters.. in that order...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:49 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
...it might make some other defensive decisions easier..

While having good defense does wonders for run prevention, having a mighty stick supercedes this need. Look at the Tigers Infield projected for the 2012: three statues and a utility infielder.. The Tigers have chosen to score runs.. lot of them.. and rely on only adequate defense. The only places the Tigers may be considered strong defensively is behind the dish and in CF...

The moral of the story.. if you can hit.. you can play.. If you can't hit, then your defense matters.. in that order...


Thing is though, if Chiz and LaPorta are starting at the corners...you could say almost the same thing about the Indians infield....


The last part is not true to all teams though. If it were, the Brewers wouldn't have moved Braun off 3B. Mark Reynolds wouldn't have been moved from SS...and then 3B. Really....can't think of many teams other than the Tigers that would be willing to make such a bold move putting Cabrera back at 3B and ignoring defense that much....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby go_tribe » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:57 pm

What ever happened to trading for BJ Upton? Seems like that possibility has disapeared but why?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:22 pm

go_tribe wrote:What ever happened to trading for BJ Upton? Seems like that possibility has disapeared but why?


Since we signed Grady Sizemore. No reason to spend $5M on a 4th outfielder. I'd rather have Upton than Sizemore at this point though.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Edible14 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:28 pm

go_tribe wrote:What ever happened to trading for BJ Upton? Seems like that possibility has disapeared but why?


Mostly because we signed Grady. There's not a lot of room in the OF unless you send down Brantley. That, and a good portion of Upton's value is in his defense as a CF. If I remember correctly, the Indians pretty much promised the CF spot to Grady, so either they'd have to renege on that, or they would be putting Upton in LF, which defeats a lot of the purpose of acquiring him.

That being said, if Grady ends up hurt again and the Indians are still in it (and the Rays aren't/are still looking to deal Upton), he could be a midseason pickup.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:50 pm

Edible14 wrote:
go_tribe wrote:What ever happened to trading for BJ Upton? Seems like that possibility has disapeared but why?


Mostly because we signed Grady. There's not a lot of room in the OF unless you send down Brantley. That, and a good portion of Upton's value is in his defense as a CF. If I remember correctly, the Indians pretty much promised the CF spot to Grady, so either they'd have to renege on that, or they would be putting Upton in LF, which defeats a lot of the purpose of acquiring him.

That being said, if Grady ends up hurt again and the Indians are still in it (and the Rays aren't/are still looking to deal Upton), he could be a midseason pickup.

We will probably never know for sure but I understand the Rays wanted more (different) compensation than the deal the Tribe tried to strike in July and August. I have no idea if this is accurate but I was told the Rays were insistent upon R Perez, Donald, Aguilar and Washington. Cleveland, not surprisingly to me, passed on this deal and signed Sizemore who was plan B. The speculation was that the Rays really wanted to wait to play their Upton chip until later in the Spring/Summer and the Indians would not buy it. I have no idea how true this is but it has made me less critical of the Sizemore signing which has been the low point of my offseason but could still work out regardless of my opinion of Sizemore's play. It appears to me like the Indians are trying to build a fund to compete for talent at the end of 2012 since all the offseason deals except for the Slowey cheapie are one year but that is nothing but speculation. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:17 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:We will probably never know for sure but I understand the Rays wanted more (different) compensation than the deal the Tribe tried to strike in July and August. I have no idea if this is accurate but I was told the Rays were insistent upon R Perez, Donald, Aguilar and Washington. Cleveland, not surprisingly to me, passed on this deal and signed Sizemore who was plan B. The speculation was that the Rays really wanted to wait to play their Upton chip until later in the Spring/Summer and the Indians would not buy it. I have no idea how true this is but it has made me less critical of the Sizemore signing which has been the low point of my offseason but could still work out regardless of my opinion of Sizemore's play. It appears to me like the Indians are trying to build a fund to compete for talent at the end of 2012 since all the offseason deals except for the Slowey cheapie are one year but that is nothing but speculation. :pleasantry:


Technically even the Slowey acquisition could be viewed as a one year deal. Nothing is guaranteed past this season. If he doesn't pan out, could just non-tender him....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:We will probably never know for sure but I understand the Rays wanted more (different) compensation than the deal the Tribe tried to strike in July and August. I have no idea if this is accurate but I was told the Rays were insistent upon R Perez, Donald, Aguilar and Washington. Cleveland, not surprisingly to me, passed on this deal and signed Sizemore who was plan B. The speculation was that the Rays really wanted to wait to play their Upton chip until later in the Spring/Summer and the Indians would not buy it. I have no idea how true this is but it has made me less critical of the Sizemore signing which has been the low point of my offseason but could still work out regardless of my opinion of Sizemore's play. It appears to me like the Indians are trying to build a fund to compete for talent at the end of 2012 since all the offseason deals except for the Slowey cheapie are one year but that is nothing but speculation. :pleasantry:


Technically even the Slowey acquisition could be viewed as a one year deal. Nothing is guaranteed past this season. If he doesn't pan out, could just non-tender him....

Agreed. And that would not surprise me. He is the only one who could have a second year without FA would probably be the correct way to state it. You'd think a book editor would get that right. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:15 am

Realizing Carlos Lee makes $18 million per season, it would seem the Indians would be prepared to pick up 50% of his contract based on the transactions they attempted to complete this off-season.

What is the stumbling block with the Astros? Does Lee have a multi-year deal in place? What players would the Astros be asking for in return? What would the Indians be willing to do as far as money and players?

If they offered Pena $8 million and offered Beltran a substantial amount, don't see money being the obstacle here.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:44 am

ironmike wrote:Realizing Carlos Lee makes $18 million per season, it would seem the Indians would be prepared to pick up 50% of his contract based on the transactions they attempted to complete this off-season.

What is the stumbling block with the Astros? Does Lee have a multi-year deal in place? What players would the Astros be asking for in return? What would the Indians be willing to do as far as money and players?

If they offered Pena $8 million and offered Beltran a substantial amount, don't see money being the obstacle here.

Lee has a no trade contract and is in the last year of a multiyear. In the past, he has declined to talk to the Indians when offered the opportunity from what I understand. Personally, iron, I am not sure his performance of the last two years warrants $9M plus players (unknown) at his age but whatever the deal that was proposed by the Astros at $9M did not enthuse Cleveland at all.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:01 pm

At this point in his career, Carlos "El Caballo" Lee is over paid, over weight and over narcissistic as he portrays himself as a star ML'er..

Pass on the fat Horse....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:15 pm

Thanks for the info. Kind of puzzling, he still was kind of productive the last two years.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:51 pm

ironmike wrote:Thanks for the info. Kind of puzzling, he still was kind of productive the last two years.

No argument there iron. But that is not the type of productivity you pay $9M + decent prospects for. I have heard some gossip about Lee and the Indians. Don't take it to the bank! Lee, like Pena, does not want to come to Cleveland. He supposedly wants a pretty good chunk of money to waive the no trade, particularly for the Tribe. I still believe he is the best option for the Indians if his head is on straight about the deal but more like $6M and a couple of second tier prospects from the dismal lineup at Akron/Carolina who are in the way. If he does want money(a perfect right), it makes the Astros position difficult. He is better than nothing as you have noted but he is no longer the player they paid $18M a year to. Giving him away and getting nothing for him is not in the cards, I would think. :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:54 pm

Does anyone want to come to Cleveland? Why does Cleveland even have a team? Jeez.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:50 am

Magneticnorth451 wrote:Does anyone want to come to Cleveland? Why does Cleveland even have a team? Jeez.

Hey Mag, remember you are dealing with a special breed in todays economy. More and more of these guys are wealthier than they have ever been and want to spend the money in pursuing a lifestyle consistent with youth and wealth. Cleveland may be that city for some but that is probably a minority of high end ML talent. There are other franchises in the same boat that don't fit the profile. It is pointless to blame the fans who are entitled to spend their money, however much it is, as they see fit. People can blame whoever they want but the fan disinterest in the Indians, whatever the reason, makes things more difficult for the franchise to sell to any FA. IMO, the Indians need 2.5M in bad years and 3M in good years to be a long term viable franchise. If not, they will stay the way they are. As Tony so eloquently put it, Cleveland is a football town! :pleasantry:
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:31 am

Indianslinger thanks. We've seen all this before. At least I have. A few years back Aramis Ramirez commented he would never come to Cleveland, not because of the city or people, but he would never get the opportunity to set roots in the community. Meaning the organization would move him and turns over its veteran players quickly when they begin losing control or are paying large salaries. These type of players who have families do not like to uproot every two years and that is understandable.

The Indians remain unbalanced, have no prospects in AA-AAA, why I don't know. Supposedly we had a great system, but we really don't. One of the options remaining is making a player for player trade. I'm not advocating the Indians trade a Choo for a equal talent, but it remains a possibility. They need an impact RH bat desperately. The big mistake in all of this is when the Indians acquired Matt LaPorta, they put all their eggs in one basket to fill that particular need. At the moment, three years later, they have begun to try to acquire depth with minor league contract players.

What Tribe fans don't realize is the chances of Sizemore and Hafner making it through the season are slim. If we get hit by injuries again, this team can't compete and the KC Royals are coming fast. The Indians need to be creative and aggressive just to maintain the improvement they made last year.

Again, how our position player cupboard for RH outfielders got so bare is a story in its self. Poor drafting? The GM sitting on his heels?
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:01 am

The criticism of the Indians farm system is sort of puzzling....

The Indians removed three players in trade for a FOR/MOR SP. Promoted four or five other high end prospects to the ML roster.. and, then, criticize the farm system because it's been too successful?? (i.e. preparing players for promotion to the ML's is the first priority for the farm system..no?)

Look at it from this perspective... Take 7 or 8 high end prospects from any other farm system.. Wouldn't their farm system ratings will drop as well.. It's simple math....
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The criticism of the Indians farm system is sort of puzzling....

The Indians removed three players in trade for a FOR/MOR SP. Promoted four or five other high end prospects to the ML roster.. and, then, criticize the farm system because it's been too successful?? (i.e. preparing players for promotion to the ML's is the first priority for the farm system..no?)

Look at it from this perspective... Take 7 or 8 high end prospects from any other farm system.. Wouldn't their farm system ratings will drop as well.. It's simple math....


+1 - but there is merit to the poor drafts prior to 2008 which is why there is a lack of top prospects above AA right now. I think there is still hope out there for Mills and Weglarz (because of power). There is some pitching at the AAA and AA but aside from Phelps there's not much in terms of hitters.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Hey Mag, remember you are dealing with a special breed in todays economy. More and more of these guys are wealthier than they have ever been and want to spend the money in pursuing a lifestyle consistent with youth and wealth. Cleveland may be that city for some but that is probably a minority of high end ML talent. There are other franchises in the same boat that don't fit the profile. It is pointless to blame the fans who are entitled to spend their money, however much it is, as they see fit. People can blame whoever they want but the fan disinterest in the Indians, whatever the reason, makes things more difficult for the franchise to sell to any FA. IMO, the Indians need 2.5M in bad years and 3M in good years to be a long term viable franchise. If not, they will stay the way they are. As Tony so eloquently put it, Cleveland is a football town! :pleasantry:


I don't live in Northeast Ohio anymore, as my life journey has taken me elsewhere, but is Cleveland that much of a dump that it has absolutely nothing going on for it?

Just saw a Tweet from Peter Gammons tsaying that Roy Oswalt told Cleveland he wasn't willing to go there, but Oswalt also expressed the same thing to Toronto and Detroit, so it's possible he simply wants to stay close to his Southern roots, which I can understand.

Anyway, I've gone off topic...

Go tribe!
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby daingean » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:40 am

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
I don't live in Northeast Ohio anymore, as my life journey has taken me elsewhere, but is Cleveland that much of a dump that it has absolutely nothing going on for it?

Just saw a Tweet from Peter Gammons tsaying that Roy Oswalt told Cleveland he wasn't willing to go there, but Oswalt also expressed the same thing to Toronto and Detroit, so it's possible he simply wants to stay close to his Southern roots, which I can understand.

Anyway, I've gone off topic...

Go tribe!


I think Cleveland is still hampered by the reputation it had from the 60's-70's. The area had a river that caught fire, the city went bankrupt, and was the subject of jokes nationwide. Plus the city hasn't had a championship since 1964.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:00 pm

Not liking Cleveland is just a BS excuse. In the 90's, Cleveland was THE franchise to play for. New ballpark, sellouts every day, consistently in the playoffs.

If a player rejects Cleveland it's usually because of a better offer. There are slight exceptions. Pena went to Tampa because he felt comfortable with people in the organization and he felt they would be a playoff contender. Oswalt will wind up with the Cards because they are WS champs.

Does anybody think Fielder signed with the Tigers because he thought Detroit was a lovely place to live. Have you driven around that place lately? Many police stations will be closing at 4 pm.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/1 ... 04069.html

If a player rejects the Cleveland area community, then he has a misinformed agent. With a casino, clubs, and restaurants opening up 500 feet from the ballpark, it will be quite the happening place on game days. (In fact, maybe the casino owner might be interested in an additional investment?).

95% of the reason a ballplayer signs is cash. The rest is just for the news media.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby ironmike » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:30 pm

Ted Cox agree with you.

Geronimo, again you are to, too, two quick with the keyboard diarreha. Referring to lack of prospects (outfielders) who hit RH in the upper minor league levels. When and who was the last home grown outfield prospect we have had who hit with power RH? Manny?

There has to be a couple but I can't thing of any at the moment.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:14 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Not liking Cleveland is just a BS excuse. In the 90's, Cleveland was THE franchise to play for. New ballpark, sellouts every day, consistently in the playoffs.

If a player rejects Cleveland it's usually because of a better offer. There are slight exceptions. Pena went to Tampa because he felt comfortable with people in the organization and he felt they would be a playoff contender. Oswalt will wind up with the Cards because they are WS champs.

Does anybody think Fielder signed with the Tigers because he thought Detroit was a lovely place to live. Have you driven around that place lately? Many police stations will be closing at 4 pm.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/1 ... 04069.html

If a player rejects the Cleveland area community, then he has a misinformed agent. With a casino, clubs, and restaurants opening up 500 feet from the ballpark, it will be quite the happening place on game days. (In fact, maybe the casino owner might be interested in an additional investment?).

95% of the reason a ballplayer signs is cash. The rest is just for the news media.


Well the ballpark isn't new...unless you can turn back the clock nothing will change that. And the fact that the ballpark isn't new is a reason we aren't seeing sellouts anymore.


I love your optimism...but think you're overselling the city. Don't get me wrong, I love Cleveland. But it's not as happening as you're making it out to be. I live downtown. Sure East 4th Street is really nice...but that's one small area. Theater District is nice...but not really close enough to the park, plus fans aren't likely to hit up a show and game on the same day. West 6th....yeah good for the college crowd. But the Flats are dead. The Rock Hall and Science Center are nice but they aren't new like they were in the 90s. The Casino....meh, I have my doubts how much this will help. Hope I'm wrong though. I don't think the city is dead, but it's defintely on life support.

I do agree that cash is the major selling point for the most part. One thing to remember is there is no state income tax in Florida, so may be a wash on money there.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby TheWord » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:48 pm

From my own personal experience talking to some beat writers in New York, the majority opinion seems to be a three-way tie at the bottom:

Detroit, Cleveland and Baltimore are all pretty much universally viewed as the worst spots in the league. Oakland is the consensus as the worst park in baseball.

Every single one of them comes home with Stadium Mustard though, so there's that.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:20 pm

ironmike wrote:Ted Cox agree with you.

Geronimo, again you are to, too, two quick with the keyboard diarreha. Referring to lack of prospects (outfielders) who hit RH in the upper minor league levels. When and who was the last home grown outfield prospect we have had who hit with power RH? Manny?

There has to be a couple but I can't thing of any at the moment.
Keyboard diarhea?..moi? :shok:

I don't segregate "home grown" ( i.e. drafted & developed) from developed in the Indians minor league system. So, for example. Grady Sizemore was a Low Class A player when he was acquired so many years ago.. he wasn't drafted by the Indians.. but, no one can doubt he is an Indians.. Same goes for Shin-soo Choo.. he may have had 20 plate appearances in the ML's with the Mariners.. he wasn't a ML'er when he was acquired (he's about the limit for my personal interpretation). Michael Brantley.. not home grown.. but developed by the Indians.. Thomas Neal.. if he makes his ML debut.. with be developed by the Indians..

How a player is acquired only matters if you're splitting hairs or picking at nits.. In the case of the Indians, all three of their starting OF'ers were developed by the Indians.. so are the back ups.. so is the SS.. so is the C.. so is the 1B.. only the starting 3B and 2B (Chisenhall & Kipnis) are "Home Grown".. and it still doesn't matter...
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:47 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
ironmike wrote:Ted Cox agree with you.

Geronimo, again you are to, too, two quick with the keyboard diarreha. Referring to lack of prospects (outfielders) who hit RH in the upper minor league levels. When and who was the last home grown outfield prospect we have had who hit with power RH? Manny?

There has to be a couple but I can't thing of any at the moment.
Keyboard diarhea?..moi? :shok:

I don't segregate "home grown" ( i.e. drafted & developed) from developed in the Indians minor league system. So, for example. Grady Sizemore was a Low Class A player when he was acquired so many years ago.. he wasn't drafted by the Indians.. but, no one can doubt he is an Indians.. Same goes for Shin-soo Choo.. he may have had 20 plate appearances in the ML's with the Mariners.. he wasn't a ML'er when he was acquired (he's about the limit for my personal interpretation). Michael Brantley.. not home grown.. but developed by the Indians.. Thomas Neal.. if he makes his ML debut.. with be developed by the Indians.

In answer to Iron Mike's specific question, the last RH power hitting outfielder to come out of the Indians system I can think of is Richie Sexson (and technically he came up as a first baseman). Right-handed power at any position... Brandon Phillips? Geronimo Son didn't name a RH hitter aside from Thomas Neal. They've had better luck with switch-hitters.
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Re: Player Acquisition Targets for 2012

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:00 pm

TheWord wrote:From my own personal experience talking to some beat writers in New York, the majority opinion seems to be a three-way tie at the bottom:

Detroit, Cleveland and Baltimore are all pretty much universally viewed as the worst spots in the league. Oakland is the consensus as the worst park in baseball.

Every single one of them comes home with Stadium Mustard though, so there's that.

I'd find it hard to believe that Kansas City and Pittsburgh are viewed any better. The Royals did throw enough money at the feet of a few second or third tier free agents to attract them over the past decade, but they were poor team decisions, even at the time.

Breaking down demographics and geography is useful for discussions of competitiveness balance and such, but I doubt that many players look that deeply when they become free agents... I've never heard a player refer to market share or the city's unemployment rate after signing a deal. One simple factor that I haven't seen mentioned (at least not this bluntly) is that the Indians have a history/reputation as a franchise that can't even keep its own free agents. It's not a particularly fair thing to hold that against them, but don't expect the typical player to know or care about competitive balance. If a team's homegrown players are all leaving town when they get the chance, it doesn't look like a desirable destination to free agents outside the organization.
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