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Ubaldo - so far

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Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:21 pm

This guy is so important to the franchise, I guess he deserves his own thread.

After getting a few close up views of him as an Indian now, I've come to some conclusions, both good and bad.

First the bad - There is no way this guy will be consistent enough to help us in a pennant race the rest of this season. He's all over the place. An ace has plus stuff, and puts it where he wants it. Right now, Ubaldo is happy to get it within 2 feet of where he wants it. I'm not a pitching coach, but this seems to be a mechanical problem. It's not going to be solved with a bullpen session. It might take an off-season, film study, and a spring training.

The good news - He still has plus stuff, and is healthy. His MRI after the trade was "remarkably clean". So if Belcher and company can get him straightened out, we will have our "ace" for 2012.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby danh8 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:35 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:This guy is so important to the franchise, I guess he deserves his own thread.

After getting a few close up views of him as an Indian now, I've come to some conclusions, both good and bad.

First the bad - There is no way this guy will be consistent enough to help us in a pennant race the rest of this season. He's all over the place. An ace has plus stuff, and puts it where he wants it. Right now, Ubaldo is happy to get it within 2 feet of where he wants it. I'm not a pitching coach, but this seems to be a mechanical problem. It's not going to be solved with a bullpen session. It might take an off-season, film study, and a spring training.

The good news - He still has plus stuff, and is healthy. His MRI after the trade was "remarkably clean". So if Belcher and company can get him straightened out, we will have our "ace" for 2012.


Agree. His ball movement and velocity show he's not dealing with anything physical, but, I think the fact that he has dealt with nagging injuries through the winter, into spring training, and early on this season has him a mechanical mess. Which won't get squared away by a new pitching coach late in the season heading towards the playoffs. What we see is likely what we'll be getting ...off and on performances that swing up ands down based on his command.

Tough to say, but he might be more a detriment than an assistance coming down the stretch.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:38 pm

A good friend of mine remarked last night they still dislike the Ubaldo trade, and even more so now. And basically, I'm still in the wait and see approach. I think it's very premature to make a judgement after three starts whether this was a good trade for the Tribe or not. Take Justin Masterson as the perfect example. MANY Indians fans were groaning about him after he made his first few appearances in a Tribe uni. He was quite less than stellar to start out. Look how that's turned out for us. Anyway, sure, Ubaldo doesn't have his best stuff this year. He got off to a rocky start with some injuries though and a healthy winter and some mechanical changes can do wonders. I'm not going to count this guy out until he goes Fausto Carmona on us. Even then, I'd take this Ubaldo over what our other option would have been.... Mitch Talbot. :shok:
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:51 pm

Masterson in '09 following trade:

11 G (10 GS) 1-7, 57.1 IP, 56 H, 29 ER/35 R, 5 HR, 35 BB, 52 K, 4.55 ERA, 1.59 WHIP, .258 BAA

Granted, small sample size... but three starts for Ubaldo:

1-0, 17.2 IP, 21 H, 9 ER/13 R, 2 HR, 5 BB, 18 K, 4.58 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .276 BAA

EDIT:

Here are your averages...

Masterson post-trade '09 .. per game
5.2 IP, 5 H, 3 ER/R, 4 BB, 5 K

Ubaldo
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER/4 R, BB, 6 K

Take it for what it's worth.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:28 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Masterson in '09 following trade:

11 G (10 GS) 1-7, 57.1 IP, 56 H, 29 ER/35 R, 5 HR, 35 BB, 52 K, 4.55 ERA, 1.59 WHIP, .258 BAA

Granted, small sample size... but three starts for Ubaldo:

1-0, 17.2 IP, 21 H, 9 ER/13 R, 2 HR, 5 BB, 18 K, 4.58 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .276 BAA

EDIT:

Here are your averages...

Masterson post-trade '09 .. per game
5.2 IP, 5 H, 3 ER/R, 4 BB, 5 K


Ubaldo
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER/4 R, BB, 6 K

Take it for what it's worth.


Yes, but at the time, Masterson was not a finished product. The Indians permanently made him a starter. Ubaldo is a proven product. Veteran starter.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:33 pm

A.Zajac wrote:A good friend of mine remarked last night they still dislike the Ubaldo trade, and even more so now. And basically, I'm still in the wait and see approach. I think it's very premature to make a judgement after three starts whether this was a good trade for the Tribe or not. Take Justin Masterson as the perfect example. MANY Indians fans were groaning about him after he made his first few appearances in a Tribe uni. He was quite less than stellar to start out. Look how that's turned out for us. Anyway, sure, Ubaldo doesn't have his best stuff this year. He got off to a rocky start with some injuries though and a healthy winter and some mechanical changes can do wonders. I'm not going to count this guy out until he goes Fausto Carmona on us. Even then, I'd take this Ubaldo over what our other option would have been.... Mitch Talbot. :shok:


Bingo. Any conclusions that people are coming to are what I like to call "not conclusions." Hypotheses maybe. Basic 5th grade science people...!
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:38 pm

Drew Pomeranz to the Rockies was made official and big Drew will be making his Rockies debut this evening for the Double A Tulsa Drillers.. Good luck to DrewPo in his future endeavors.. so long as they don't conflict with ours...
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:12 pm

A.Zajac wrote:Masterson in '09 following trade:

11 G (10 GS) 1-7, 57.1 IP, 56 H, 29 ER/35 R, 5 HR, 35 BB, 52 K, 4.55 ERA, 1.59 WHIP, .258 BAA

Granted, small sample size... but three starts for Ubaldo:

1-0, 17.2 IP, 21 H, 9 ER/13 R, 2 HR, 5 BB, 18 K, 4.58 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .276 BAA

EDIT:

Here are your averages...

Masterson post-trade '09 .. per game
5.2 IP, 5 H, 3 ER/R, 4 BB, 5 K

Ubaldo
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER/4 R, BB, 6 K

Take it for what it's worth.


Masterson ended last season very strong and had many Indians fans excited about him going into this year. If Jimenez does that people will stop worrying.

Also 2 of his starts are against the #3 and #5 OPS teams in the Majors. On a somewhat bad note his former division has the #25,#28,#29 teams in OPS
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:39 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:A good friend of mine remarked last night they still dislike the Ubaldo trade, and even more so now. And basically, I'm still in the wait and see approach. I think it's very premature to make a judgement after three starts whether this was a good trade for the Tribe or not. Take Justin Masterson as the perfect example. MANY Indians fans were groaning about him after he made his first few appearances in a Tribe uni. He was quite less than stellar to start out. Look how that's turned out for us. Anyway, sure, Ubaldo doesn't have his best stuff this year. He got off to a rocky start with some injuries though and a healthy winter and some mechanical changes can do wonders. I'm not going to count this guy out until he goes Fausto Carmona on us. Even then, I'd take this Ubaldo over what our other option would have been.... Mitch Talbot. :shok:


Bingo. Any conclusions that people are coming to are what I like to call "not conclusions." Hypotheses maybe. Basic 5th grade science people...!


We traded for a FOR guy to anchor the team in the 2011 pennant race. He's 0 for 3 in starts, and looks terrible. A SP doesn't play every day and will only have a limited amount of starts in the next 44 days. He's not magically going to turn into Verlander next time around. So my conclusion is - for the 2011 pennant race - he's a flop. He might be the ace next season. But you don't go from consistently wild to pinpoint control overnight.

That doesn't mean the trade was good or bad. Even if he was effective, the Indians inability to acquire a bat would be the real reason the Indians won't win the AL Central.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby indians1 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:03 pm

ubaldo-very average so far with bad control. Looks alot like fausto when his mechanics go wrong.

Pomeranz- no-hitter thru 4 innings today. Ubaldo better help this team get to the playoffs this year because pomeranz may be ready by early next year.

If pomeranz is the real deal and he does become an impact pitcher immediately, then this is a bad trade. Ubaldo was traded for to help win now. He better help them win now. Period
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:11 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:We traded for a FOR guy to anchor the team in the 2011 pennant race. He's 0 for 3 in starts, and looks terrible. A SP doesn't play every day and will only have a limited amount of starts in the next 44 days. He's not magically going to turn into Verlander next time around. So my conclusion is - for the 2011 pennant race - he's a flop. He might be the ace next season. But you don't go from consistently wild to pinpoint control overnight.

That doesn't mean the trade was good or bad. Even if he was effective, the Indians inability to acquire a bat would be the real reason the Indians won't win the AL Central.


huh? He went 8 innings giving up 0 earned runs and got the W in his 2nd start. How is he "0 for 3" in starts? :rolleyes:

While I wouldn't say he looked like Verlander in that start, looked VERY good. In his last 12.2 innings with the Tribe he has 11 K's to only 2 walks as well.

Seriously you're calling him a flop for this race already? :wacko:
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:19 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:We traded for a FOR guy to anchor the team in the 2011 pennant race. He's 0 for 3 in starts, and looks terrible. A SP doesn't play every day and will only have a limited amount of starts in the next 44 days. He's not magically going to turn into Verlander next time around. So my conclusion is - for the 2011 pennant race - he's a flop. He might be the ace next season. But you don't go from consistently wild to pinpoint control overnight.

That doesn't mean the trade was good or bad. Even if he was effective, the Indians inability to acquire a bat would be the real reason the Indians won't win the AL Central.


huh? He went 8 innings giving up 0 earned runs and got the W in his 2nd start. How is he "0 for 3" in starts? :rolleyes:

While I wouldn't say he looked like Verlander in that start, looked VERY good. In his last 12.2 innings with the Tribe he has 11 K's to only 2 walks as well.

Seriously you're calling him a flop for this race already? :wacko:


I agree, this is the face that I'm making right now too.

:wacko:
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:15 pm

Here's Ubaldo's 3 Cleveland starts.

TEX 5 IP 7 H 5 ER
DET 8 IP 5 H 0 ER (after scoring change)
CHI 4.2 IP 9 H 4 ER

There is NO CONSISTENCY. In a pennant race, if you don't know what you are going to get from a starter, then you are in a bad place. How many innings will he go in his next start? It's anybody's guess.

On the other hand, Masterson is consistently good. Win or loose you know what you're getting.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby indians1 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:23 pm

it comes down to if ubaldo pitches well this year and beyond. but if he has inconsistency this year, this trade is a failure. Pomeranz will make his debut next year unless he has an injury. Alex white looks like he is coming back nicely.

I understand that neither one would have helped us this year, and i came out in favor of the trade. That being said, if ubaldo does not turn out to be the staff ace that goes out and gives the team a chance to win most times out, then this will be a huge setback to the franchise.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:01 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:Here's Ubaldo's 3 Cleveland starts.

TEX 5 IP 7 H 5 ER
DET 8 IP 5 H 0 ER (after scoring change)
CHI 4.2 IP 9 H 4 ER

There is NO CONSISTENCY. In a pennant race, if you don't know what you are going to get from a starter, then you are in a bad place. How many innings will he go in his next start? It's anybody's guess.

On the other hand, Masterson is consistently good. Win or loose you know what you're getting.


good grief

Gave up fewer earned runs (9) in his first 3 starts than Lee did for Texas last year (10). Lee's ERA in August last year while the Rangers were in a pennant race? 6.35. Oppenents hit over .300 with an OPS over .800. Only 1 of his 7 starts was a quality start too and the team went 1-6 in those 7 starts.

Can't believe anyone in Texas still has a job after that piss poor trade. Gave up 4 or more runs in 6 of those 7 starts, so inconsistent there. Then on top of that he got hurt and missed a start; man that trade obviously killed their chances and was a failure. Yup, no doubt about it....O wait.... :rolleyes:

3 starts. let me say it again.....3 STARTS.

I'm not sold on this trade either nor do I think ubaldo is as good as Lee (was going over the top there I know)...but c'mon....3 starts and you're calling him out? Talk about tough crowd....
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:06 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GhostofTedCox wrote:Here's Ubaldo's 3 Cleveland starts.

TEX 5 IP 7 H 5 ER
DET 8 IP 5 H 0 ER (after scoring change)
CHI 4.2 IP 9 H 4 ER

There is NO CONSISTENCY. In a pennant race, if you don't know what you are going to get from a starter, then you are in a bad place. How many innings will he go in his next start? It's anybody's guess.

On the other hand, Masterson is consistently good. Win or loose you know what you're getting.


good grief

Gave up fewer earned runs (9) in his first 3 starts than Lee did for Texas last year (10). Lee's ERA in August last year while the Rangers were in a pennant race? 6.35. Oppenents hit over .300 with an OPS over .800. Only 1 of his 7 starts was a quality start too and the team went 1-6 in those 7 starts.

Can't believe anyone in Texas still has a job after that piss poor trade. Gave up 4 or more runs in 6 of those 7 starts, so inconsistent there. Then on top of that he got hurt and missed a start; man that trade obviously killed their chances and was a failure. Yup, no doubt about it....O wait.... :rolleyes:

3 starts. let me say it again.....3 STARTS.

I'm not sold on this trade either nor do I think ubaldo is as good as Lee (was going over the top there I know)...but c'mon....3 starts and you're calling him out? Talk about tough crowd....


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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:14 pm

Before people jump on me, I was supportive of the trade and still am.

I never really had much of a look at Ubaldo until he put on an Indians uniform. This guy's mechanics are not traditional; his arm action isn't good and at times I'm pretty sure I see a bit of a recoil off his fastball (perhaps when he overthrows it?). I can understand why the Rockies were willing to bail on the guy -- that is not a delivery you teach to young pitchers. HOWEVER, I think I've seen a lot of pitching prospects the last decade or so and it's REALLY DIFFICULT TO PREDICT ARM INJURIES. Beyond guys that just flat don't know how to throw, it's pretty much just a random walk. Ubaldo has held together and just passed an in-depth physical, so lets move on.

Ubaldo is our guy. I don't care how Pomeranz or White turn out. What's done is done.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby danh8 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:00 am

I think it's going to be tough to get his mechanics squared away with what time remains in this season, with a new pitching coach on top of that. I don't think it would be smart for Belcher to even attempt to do too much at this point. But, I have confidence that Jimenez is truly healthy, and he does have the power arm, with movement like he always has. We just have a guy that has been dealing with nagging issues that extend all the way back to this past winter when he couldn't prepare normally heading into spring training, and then had a series of issues with blisters etc ..that continued him just dealing with never being able to get it all on track.

I think we'll see the true benefits of this trade next year and the year after, quite frankly. I have faith that with good health and Tim Belcher having the time to work with him and lock in on his mechanics that he can work his magic and have Ubaldo Jimenez at the very top of his game next year.

That could be devastating to add that to our already developing pitching staff.
I think the Indians also have some good alternatives with his contract, where we could put some more money into the next two years, in order for him to lock in the next two as well ...but, it would have to be a significant bump.

I think it's workable.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby ironmike » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:13 am

Jimenez will be fine. Tim Belcher will tweak a few things and Ubaldo is heading for the prime of his career. Will exceed expectations. Great movement on all his pitches. Once he gets more command and becomes more of a pitcher, he will be one of the top pitchers in the league.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:26 am

There are 40 some days left in the season. Unless Ubaldo can become a shut down, inning eating FOR starter, the pennant race could be over in about 20 days. To gain 2 games on a good team like the Tigers means you have to play well over .500 ball the rest of the way. If Ubaldo is a .500 pitcher the rest of the way, that's not good enough.

Guys, don't get me wrong. I think Ubaldo will become our ace in 2012, but now is the time for results, not excuses.

Ask yourself: If there was a 1 game playoff with the Tigers to win the AL Central, who would you want to start that game? Would Ubaldo even be your second choice?
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:56 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Ask yourself: If there was a 1 game playoff with the Tigers to win the AL Central, who would you want to start that game? Would Ubaldo even be your second choice?



I think the obvious choice would be Masterson, as he's been pitching like an Ace since the second half of last season. I honestly can't recall the last bad game he's pitched. Was it against the Rays?

Now for my second choice, it'd come down to Ubaldo vs. Carmona, with Ubaldo getting the edge. Carmona has been terrific as of late, but Ubaldo has the most recent playoff experience, and he has better stuff, plus better overall numbers this year (Indians FIP of 3.29, xFIP of 3.32, K/9 over 9). Also, apart from the 3rd inning in his start against the Tigers, he really took a buzzsaw to them, so he gets the edge for me.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:08 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:There are 40 some days left in the season. Unless Ubaldo can become a shut down, inning eating FOR starter, the pennant race could be over in about 20 days. To gain 2 games on a good team like the Tigers means you have to play well over .500 ball the rest of the way. If Ubaldo is a .500 pitcher the rest of the way, that's not good enough.

Guys, don't get me wrong. I think Ubaldo will become our ace in 2012, but now is the time for results, not excuses.

Ask yourself: If there was a 1 game playoff with the Tigers to win the AL Central, who would you want to start that game? Would Ubaldo even be your second choice?


Ubaldo compliments & reinforces the Indians pitching staff very well. The starting staff and the bullpen for the Indians are the strongest parts of the club and makes them a more than formidable opponent going into the last quarter of the season. The 2 game lead by the tigers can evaporate.. in a hurry.. perhaps this weekend. The Tiger's bullpen (less Valverde, who's been the best closer in MLB this year) and their starting staff (less Verlander, who's been the best starting pitcher in MLB this year) are mediocre, on a good day. Depth and ability in your pitching staff down the stretch are what is needed to win the AL Central. The Indians have it.. the Tigers don't. Ublado will be starting 8 or 9 games down the stretch for this season. He's a damn site better than having Rick Porcello, Mad Max Scherzer, Brad Penny or Doug Fister or whoever else the tigers run out to the mound, not named Verlander. It's not a one game contest, but I'd be please to see Masterson and Verlander go head to head if it's a single game win or go home situation.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby jellis » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:15 pm

this has been my issue with the fan base all year, and even on these boards . Small sample size, a few chances and we throw them under the bus, you better be a HOF or we think your shite. Every player called up has gotten the same treatment, more than any other sport baseball is a game of patience, so lets try and have some. Adapting leagues is never easy, moving to a new town is rough on anyone, I still love the deal and like I said before this comes from the only person who thought Pom was the number one prospect in November, half the people on these boards didnt want to sign Pom last year and wanted the comp pick the next year.

The front office knew what it was doing, I guarantee if we had done a beltran deal it would have been for White, Indians seemed dead set on trading him, and I think the finger concern was extremely high. Pom should be good, but he is not advancing in terms of development as quickly as White, command has improved but needs work, and his third pitch has been iffy, so much that in June I read scouts who still called him a reliever, I think he becomes a solid number 2, but there were reasons for legit concern
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:20 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:There are 40 some days left in the season. Unless Ubaldo can become a shut down, inning eating FOR starter, the pennant race could be over in about 20 days. To gain 2 games on a good team like the Tigers means you have to play well over .500 ball the rest of the way. If Ubaldo is a .500 pitcher the rest of the way, that's not good enough.

Guys, don't get me wrong. I think Ubaldo will become our ace in 2012, but now is the time for results, not excuses.

Ask yourself: If there was a 1 game playoff with the Tigers to win the AL Central, who would you want to start that game? Would Ubaldo even be your second choice?


Even if Ubaldo were to only go 2 innings in each of his starts over the next 20 days and we lose every one, we won't be out of it. Yeah, he needs to pick it up but you were saying he's already a flop for this race...AFTER 3 GAMES! That's insane. Seems as though you are already backtracking. Get the frustration with the 2 starts, but he's not the first guy to have 2 bad games after being traded.

Tigers are under .500 over their last 10 games....just lost 2 of 3 at home to the Twins. Think you are vastly overrating that team...one that still has a negative run differential.


As far as who I want pitching in a 1 game playoff....yeah it's Masterson. Not sure why that matters though. I mean, the Phillies traded for Oswalt last year....pretty sure they weren't upset that in a 1-game playoff they were still going to start Halladay.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:01 pm

My opinion has nothing to do with the trade. I'm still slightly in favor of the trade. Besides, there's no turning back. He's our guy now.

However, when you pick up a FOR guy, for that price, he better be damn good in his starts in a do or die pennant race. There is even more pressure on him to be good because the Indians did not pick up a solid bat to help. The rest of the pennant race starts today, not in 2-3 weeks. We need consistently good starts, not 5 and fly, and it's up to the pen.
We got the guy to be the horse. At least as good as Masterson.
Carlos Carraco is intermittently good. But he is a young player and people have patience with him. Ubaldo is a 6-year veteran. Patience not needed.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby stoike » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:16 pm

jellis wrote:this has been my issue with the fan base all year, and even on these boards . Small sample size, a few chances and we throw them under the bus, you better be a HOF or we think your shite. Every player called up has gotten the same treatment, more than any other sport baseball is a game of patience, so lets try and have some. Adapting leagues is never easy, moving to a new town is rough on anyone, I still love the deal and like I said before this comes from the only person who thought Pom was the number one prospect in November, half the people on these boards didnt want to sign Pom last year and wanted the comp pick the next year.

The front office knew what it was doing, I guarantee if we had done a beltran deal it would have been for White, Indians seemed dead set on trading him, and I think the finger concern was extremely high. Pom should be good, but he is not advancing in terms of development as quickly as White, command has improved but needs work, and his third pitch has been iffy, so much that in June I read scouts who still called him a reliever, I think he becomes a solid number 2, but there were reasons for legit concern


I think he has tons of talent, but something does not seem quite right physically with him. The inconsistent velocity makes me quite certain that it is NOT an arm issue, and I have heard whispers of back problems, although I have heard nothing concrete. Whatever it may be, I am a bit worried....
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:02 pm

I've been underwhelmed with Ubaldo so far.....but damn, it has been just three starts. There is absolutely nothing I can take away from that. I can see he has some mechanical issues and the command may be a problem, but those were things known going in. Tough for any pitcher to fit in and perform well right away. Even if he is struggling, I'd much rather have him in the rotation pitching instead of Carrasco, Gomez, McAllister or Talbot right now. Because one of those four guys would definitely be in there right now.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby rsamak » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:36 pm

Ubaldo in his 1st start didn't have good command but looked to have good movement on all his pitches. Velo high 90's. ... 2nd start good command and made it look fairly easy.

3rd start, his breaking pitch very tough to hit was pretty much out of the zone, some way off; 2 seem fb some run little sink; fastball straight with little movement; velo set at 93.

My take, I'm sure some will have better. A FOR starter? Not right now.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:58 pm

Frankly I hated giving up both Pomeranz and White in this deal, giving up both your top pitching prospects is never a good idea especially in the same deal BUT this is / was a unique opp. For the Tribe to get an arm that projects to the front of the staff. In getting Jimenez there were concerns (Rox fans compared him to Carmona) but with this offseason and spring training hopefully those things get ironed out. Pomeranz and White are gone, nothing can be done about that now, but ppl (Inc. me) will be watching Pomeranz and Whites careers and comparing them to Jimenez. What could have been, never will be. :dunno:

Jimenez was not only acq for this season but the next two and potentially a third. It was as much about being competitive this yr as it is to adding a potential 1/2 starter for the next few. Look I've suggested trading Carmona in the offseason but he's been more consistent than Jimenez, but Jimenez has youth and potential on his side. This guy is just entering his prime yrs and is controllable throughout the 'window of contention'. Three starts are a small sample, I'm more proned to comment after 10 but again everyone knew Jimenez was a bit behind starting the season and his mechanics have followed suit.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby theshow » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:41 pm

Other people have said it. Ubaldo IS Carmona. Ubaldo when on has slightly better stuff, but both are players who when mentally and mechanically right have absolutely electric stuff. But last night is evidence that you don't want to give up on a talent like Carmona, and it is equally risky to give up on a talent like Ubaldo.

I think overall this is a better trade for the Rockies, but I do think it is a calculated, respectable risk. If Ubaldo finds it, he is one of the 5 best pitchers in the game. But I think it is more than likely he won't find it and ends up being a #2 or #3 starter. I think the Indians justified this trade because Alex White is seen as a bullpen arm long term. They were trading him when his stock was fairly high. It is essentially Pomeranz for Ubaldo in their eyes. While Pomeranz is probably a TOR MLB starter, they took the "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" approach. They are "going for it," in '11, '12, and '13, and you have to appreciate the team trying to win now. I personally would rather take the approach to sustain a balanced team every year over a great team for a few years, followed by some years of rebuilding. That is what the Rays do, but at the same time it is nice to know we should be a division contender the next few years.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:23 am

Again, Ubaldo has proven to be a very good pitcher in the league. Is cost controlled and under control for several years. He is in no way an ace, but he is a good #2 if you ask me. There are some mechanical things that are going to drive you wacky, and in some ways he is a lot like Carmona with incredible stuff but some command/control/delivery issues. There is no denying the talent and ability, it is just harnessing it consistently.

If White or Pomeranz ever become a pitcher like Ubaldo has been up to this point, we would have all been elated. I think it is great both are pitching well right now and I want them to have success in the future as it helps validate Grant's drafts and they are good guys. By the same token, until they pitch in the big leagues and do it consistently over time it is hard to truly evaluate this deal.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:24 pm

This thread is about to explode.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Even after another ugly start while it's frustrating, Jimenez has a track record of success... That said we shall see.

I caught something reading up on Alex White w/ the Rox AA club. Noted he pitched well and should be up soon and it said he was recovering from a torn ligament in his middle finger not a sprain as we were lead to believe. Also noted Jorge DeLaRosa had recovered from a sim. Injury. The Rox were familiar with Whites injury and comfortable with his recovery obviously. Apparently the depth of the system, injury scare for White and chance to get Ubaldo were too much for the Tribe to surpass. Here's hoping and praying Jimenez gets it together this season and the next few.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:52 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I caught something reading up on Alex White w/ the Rox AAA club. Noted he pitched well and should be up soon


White is starting for the Rox on Tuesday.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:12 pm

Just saw that. White makes his Rox debut v. The Astros Tuesday night. I'll be cheering White on, wish him the best.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:45 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Just saw that. White makes his Rox debut v. The Astros Tuesday night. I'll be cheering White on, wish him the best.


I have a serious question for Tribe fans (not just you): Will you really be cheering him on and wishing for the best? If he throws 9 innings and strikes out 24 in a perfect game, you'd be like "yea kid, way to go"?

I don't mean to be a smartass here (your comment might have just been a generic one without much thought put to it) but are you guys really hoping for Alex White to be a great pitcher down the road? Nobody wants to admit don't want the guy to succeed. I'm honestly not afraid to say that I hope he doesn't succeed. Why? It's comforting to know that your favorite teams' front office is doing the right thing or knows more than I do. This may seem a little controversial to some people but what do I care? My job isn't to look like a good PR guy or to not burn any bridges.

It's not like I'm wishing harm on the guy, I just would like to know that we got the better of the trade. When we cut ties with Austin Kearns, are you hoping that he goes on to sign with another team and lead them in Home Runs while leading them to a World Series? When we traded Orlando Cabrera were you rooting for him to rake in San Fran?

I hope I'm not coming off as a villain here, but I'm honestly not afraid to say that I'm rooting for Alex White and Drew Pomeranz to suck. :diablo: :diablo: :diablo:
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:18 pm

SUCKS!!!!!!
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:39 pm

Alex White starting for the Rockies..doing well.. etc.. is exactly what I'd love to see. That doesn't take away from the benefits the Indians get from their part of the trade..

It just means that the guys many on this board thought would be a starting SP in the ML's are doing just that.. and the guy the Indians received in return is doing the same.. Now, if the Ubaldo doesn't learn to limit the damage, then it's going to be a long last 40 games..
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby rsamak » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:43 pm

Ubaldo 1 plus pitch then the rest ave at best. What's the best to expect of him this yr? MOR? Did Antonetti expect a FOR starter? I thought that was what he indicated.

What were scouts saying about him prior to the trade? ... Has his mechanics deteriorated since the trade? Thought he had better movement his first two starts.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:33 pm

I came out right away and said I hated the trade bc the Tribe dealt two potential top tier arms and their top 2 pitching prospects. That said Tribe wasn't going to move Chisenhall or Kipnis and Gomez, Huff, McAllister and potentially Barnes are ready / near ready too. The Tribe dealt from depth for a potential FOR arm who has a good track record.

Personally I do wish, hope and pray the best for White and Pomeranz... A cpl of guys I like and rooted for in the Tribes system. Honestly I hope there both 2/3 starters for the Rox. WHY??? Because they can stink it up every time they face the Tribe, but it shows Grant etc. Are doing their jobs identifying talent coming into the org. The Tribe didn't give up much after White and Pomeranz but that was too high IMO. I'd offered Phelps and Gomez and tried to have kept White at least. But he's damaged goods bc of the ?'s surrounding the finger so it was selling high (?) with him.

I understand the Tribes motive in acq. Jimenez he's got great stuff... But now we see why the Rox fans compared him to Carmona. I'm a Carmona fan and have suggested selling him offf for a bat in the offseason but now I'm not so sure... Carmona has been great of late and Jimenez has absolutely struggled the last few to say the least. This was a trade that made sense but didn't really either, had Carmona been pitching at this level perhaps the Tribe would have been more in on Pence ,Upton or Bourn. Instead of going for Jimenez.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:47 pm

@ Entertheshoe ... FYI I don't like OCab or Kearns. Kearns is a nice guy btw but not a fan. If you read all the other posts or many others you'd have seen my applauding the OCab trade and also my demands for Kearns release about a wk before it was reality.

I wouldn't have dealt for Jimenez, hope he does great with the Tribe but I have my doubts, which are becoming increasingly more realistic. Honestly I think Jimenez will get straitened out but to me he's a 2 at best but likely a very good 3. So why waste the ammo and the Tribe pitching had been fairly solid, to that point. Hope I'm wrong and Jimenez is great.

Also I've been a White and Pomeranz fan since both were in college. Tribe just happened to get them which was great to see a cpl talented arms like that in the system while it lasted.

Personally speaking I'm a senior in Bible College with a family and fulltime job, my aspirations are after ministry not anything to do with the tribe. I grew up in Lake Cty just happen to love the Tribe, Browns, Cavs & Buckeyes (explain the username?). I have nothing to gain by brown nosing the FO. I just happen to try to look at things as they are, or at least from my perception.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:48 pm

rsamak wrote:What were scouts saying about him prior to the trade? ... Has his mechanics deteriorated since the trade? Thought he had better movement his first two starts.


MLB Network has highlighted on several occasions a difference in his delivery from last year as opposed to this year.

They've shown that Ubaldo's simply not finishing his pitches on the same plane (back level with the ground) as he was when he was at his best last year, suggesting that he's either hurt or his mechanics are definitely out of whack.

As for today, he definitely had Peralta struck out on a fastball at his knees on the outer half of the plate but didn't get the call, eventually leading to a walk and 7 runs. An Ace needs to shrug off that stuff, buckle down, and get out of the inning. I think he can be an Ace, but I'm starting to think it's not going to happen this year.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby indians1 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:32 am

if his mechanics were off and the indians thought they could start making changes in midstream or wait until the offseason, then that was a major tactical error. I came out in favor of the trade because i thought it would help them compete this year.

If ubaldo pitches bad this year and does not help them get to the playoffs, then it was a bad trade. Alex White and pomeranz (if healthy) are going to be helping the rockies next year. This trade was made because it was supposed to stabilize the rotation. Now we may have another head case on our hands.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:42 am

indians1 wrote:if his mechanics were off and the indians thought they could start making changes in midstream or wait until the offseason, then that was a major tactical error. I came out in favor of the trade because i thought it would help them compete this year.

If ubaldo pitches bad this year and does not help them get to the playoffs, then it was a bad trade. Alex White and pomeranz (if healthy) are going to be helping the rockies next year. This trade was made because it was supposed to stabilize the rotation. Now we may have another head case on our hands.


The trade was made for this year and the next 2 seasons.

I'm dissapointed with his performance as well so far, but holy crap ... let's give him some time to adjust.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby ironmike » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:06 am

Mechanics, anxiety and he's trying to hard. Obvious the kid is out of his comfort zone. Tim Belcher and the staff will tweak his delivery. He'll be fine. Bookmark this post. Jimenez has a great arm, his ball moves all over the place. I recall people posting the same thing about Masterson last year.

As he was quoted today ... he's been pitching from behind all year.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:39 am

At worst, this trade has set the franchise back years.
At best, Ubaldo becomes the ace in 2012 and leads the Indians to the 2012 championship.
The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

However, if Antonetti believed he would help this year, he is sadly mistaken. Ubaldo is actually pitching worse for us than he did with the Rocks. So maybe he needs to adjust to the league. Maybe adjust to being in big games again. If his arm is sound, he will just need to work on mechanics. The Indians have a good tract record of straightening pitchers out. Maybe he can get this straightened out before the end of the season. But it will be too little, too late.

But the 2011 pennant race now looks bleak to say the least. The Indians did not acquire an impact bat at the deadline to help. Kipnis is out. Hafner became unproductive and is now out. There are many questions to answer if the Indians are to be contenders in 2012. Ubaldo is the biggest.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:57 am

This is what is called "reactionary":

...But the 2011 pennant race now looks bleak to say the least. The Indians did not acquire an impact bat at the deadline to help. Kipnis is out. Hafner became unproductive and is now out...


Just three short days ago, the Indians were within a game and a half of the division leading Tigers entering a weekend series against the Motor City Kitties in their crib to complete a six game roadie against the teams right in front of the indians and right behind the indians.. Well, things didn't go too well in Detroilet.. Porcello intentionally threw at Droobs, Hafner hurt his foot going from here to there, Valverde drilled Jason Donald in the back.. and a three game sweep was complete..

Three days from now.. will the stink of this weekend series be a memory?.. probably.. The new stink will be the Puppy thing on Tuesday.. :rolleyes:
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:20 am

A side note to the Ubaldo Jimenez trade:

..Drew Pomeranz, who joined the Rockies this week to complete the Ubaldo Jimenez trade with Cleveland, underwent an emergency appendectomy last night, according to the Tulsa Drillers twitter feed. Pomeranz's agent, Steve Rath, confirmed news of the surgery, which figures to end the left-hander's season, to Troy Renck of the Denver Post.
So, Drew, most likely, will be on the sidelines for the remainder of the 2011 season for the Rockies... :s_sorry
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:58 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:At worst, this trade has set the franchise back years.
At best, Ubaldo becomes the ace in 2012 and leads the Indians to the 2012 championship.
The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

However, if Antonetti believed he would help this year, he is sadly mistaken. Ubaldo is actually pitching worse for us than he did with the Rocks. So maybe he needs to adjust to the league. Maybe adjust to being in big games again. If his arm is sound, he will just need to work on mechanics. The Indians have a good tract record of straightening pitchers out. Maybe he can get this straightened out before the end of the season. But it will be too little, too late.

But the 2011 pennant race now looks bleak to say the least. The Indians did not acquire an impact bat at the deadline to help. Kipnis is out. Hafner became unproductive and is now out. There are many questions to answer if the Indians are to be contenders in 2012. Ubaldo is the biggest.


No, best case Ubaldo still helps the Tribe win the division (and more) this year AND beyond.
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Re: Ubaldo - so far

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:04 pm

GhostofTedCox wrote:At worst, this trade has set the franchise back years.
At best, Ubaldo becomes the ace in 2012 and leads the Indians to the 2012 championship.
The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

However, if Antonetti believed he would help this year, he is sadly mistaken. Ubaldo is actually pitching worse for us than he did with the Rocks. So maybe he needs to adjust to the league. Maybe adjust to being in big games again. If his arm is sound, he will just need to work on mechanics. The Indians have a good tract record of straightening pitchers out. Maybe he can get this straightened out before the end of the season. But it will be too little, too late.

But the 2011 pennant race now looks bleak to say the least. The Indians did not acquire an impact bat at the deadline to help. Kipnis is out. Hafner became unproductive and is now out. There are many questions to answer if the Indians are to be contenders in 2012. Ubaldo is the biggest.


Really?

I'd say health and offense are the biggest.

As for Ubaldo pitching worse (SSS), look at his rate stats this year and compare them to 2010.

Sure, he's been dissapointing so far and I'm still a little sceptical about the trade, but so many fans have had a knee-jerk reaction to all of this and it's getting a bit ridiculous. This isn't meant to offend anyone here, but the casual Tribe fan has got to one of the hardest to please.
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