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Off-Season Priorities

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Off-Season Priorities

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:23 pm

Granted, this is a really early, but thought this would be a good discussion to have now. In order of most important.

1) Offer an extension to Ubaldo.
2) Acquire a right handed run, middle of the lineup run producer.
3) Offer an extension to Asdrubal.
4) Keep Choo's arbitration under control
5) Make a decision on Grady.
6) Make a decision on LaPorta.
7) Make a decision on Fausto.
8) Promote Mike Sarbaugh to the coaching staff.
9) Keep Sandy on the staff.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:17 pm

1-9) Sign Albert Pujols.

Ha, I kid. OR DOOOOO I?
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby martyinnewyork » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:35 pm

Right handed bat for the middle of the order...
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:05 pm

In terms of that righthanded bat, who would you suggest?

My lists:

Trades:

Nelson Cruz
Michael Morse
Chris Young
BJ Upton
Gaby Sanchez
Yonder Alonso
Allen Craig
Corey Hart

FA:

Lance Berkman
Josh Willingham
Paul Konerko
Derrek Lee
Ryan Ludwick
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:18 pm

JP_Frost wrote:In terms of that righthanded bat, who would you suggest?

My lists:

Trades:

Nelson Cruz
Michael Morse
Chris Young
BJ Upton
Gaby Sanchez
Yonder Alonso
Allen Craig
Corey Hart

FA:

Lance Berkman
Josh Willingham
Paul Konerko
Derrek Lee
Ryan Ludwick


It depends on, in terms of cost, whether it be prospects via trade or money we can shell out in FA. I think it also depends on our decisions with LaPorta and Sizemore. IMO, Berkman and Konerko are unrealistic, though I'd love either one of them. I wouldn't mind Derek Lee, though some will point to declining stats. Corey Hart is an interesting guy, as is Craig.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:41 pm

Of course it depends on cost and most of those guys won't come cheap, but we're talking about a middle of the order bat, so you have to pay the price.

Konerko probably won't happen given his White Sox ties, but Berkman could be an option imo. Wouldn't go beyond a 2-year deal though.

Let's not forget that both Fielder and Pujols are on the market this winter, so guys like Konerko and Berkman could come alot cheaper than they normally would.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:51 pm

I'd love to see Prince Fielder brought in. I know I'm dreaming but how about a back loaded deal. When Hafner comes off the books.

Honestly I expect the Tribe to move Carmona for a bat.
Maybe Raffy Perez and or Joe Smith get moved too.

Next getting Ubaldo signed to an extension. Preferably ACab too.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:45 pm

Yea, I agree it's unrealistic to get a big bat, but what if we decline the Carmona (7 million) and Sizemore (9 million) options and use that 16 million on one big bat? Or maybe this Ubaldo trade shows that the club is willing to spend money again. I mean, just in 2008 and 2009 the payroll was 80 million (compared to 50 at the start of this season). Obviously with arbitration + Ubaldo that number will naturally go up but who knows?
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:05 pm

I honestly believe this yr could be Carmona's last with the Tribe. Not sure who called on him after Jimenez was acq. But there is interest in Carmona. Maybe NYY, Boston, Toronto not sure any extra bats they'd give up but if Carmona is solid throughout the remainder of the season he could help his value.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:26 pm

Sizemores return IMO will depend upon his health down the stretch. I don't expect to the tribe pk up his option but he will likely be resigned to a lesser deal.

Fukudome is arb eligible. I'd offer about $2-$3 mil. to get the comp pk. And hope he signs else where, in the meantime If he didn't sign else where I'd try to work a deal before arb.

With the bullpen depth in the system I wouldnt be too surprised to see Smith sold high or/ and Raffy Perez before they get too expensive. I don't expect anything crazy but these bullpen arms are bottlenecked. We could see the Tribe still make a move through waivers to add a bat.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:32 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Fukudome is arb eligible. I'd offer about $2-$3 mil. to get the comp pk. And hope he signs else where


If you offer him arb and he excepts you have to offer him at least 80% of his 2011 salary for next year. Seeing as he's making $13.5m this year, then the least you can offer him is $10.8m!

Not happening.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:41 pm

I forgot about rule, could see him brought back for depth but doubt it.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:39 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Fukudome is arb eligible. I'd offer about $2-$3 mil. to get the comp pk. And hope he signs else where


If you offer him arb and he excepts you have to offer him at least 80% of his 2011 salary for next year. Seeing as he's making $13.5m this year, then the least you can offer him is $10.8m!

Not happening.


Guess I'm fuzzy here as well. If Fukudome is considered a free agent after the year and you're only offering arbitration in that sense (and not as in the 3 years of arby that every player gets before free agency), then I thought you could in fact offer whatever you wanted?

(3) The club's salary offer to a player under its control may not be less than 80% of the player's total compensation from the prior year, and may not be less than 70% of his compensation from 2 years earlier. These rules, however, do not apply to free agents who are offered arbitration.

Perhaps that's not accurate though?

May not matter depending on how his contract is actually worded. The way I've seen it is that the Tribe has to "release" him if they don't offer an extension. I took "release" as meaning non-tender, which would mean no draft pick comp. But perhaps that's not accurate.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:21 am

entertheshoe wrote:Yea, I agree it's unrealistic to get a big bat, but what if we decline the Carmona (7 million) and Sizemore (9 million) options and use that 16 million on one big bat? Or maybe this Ubaldo trade shows that the club is willing to spend money again. I mean, just in 2008 and 2009 the payroll was 80 million (compared to 50 at the start of this season). Obviously with arbitration + Ubaldo that number will naturally go up but who knows?


The club is ALWAYS willing to spend money, but the money they spend has to come from the ongoing operations. The payroll to start the year was exceptionally low, nearly the bottom 10% of MLB. That payroll number was based on the club being break even or slightly profitable for the 2011 season, a year the Indians were "supposed" to be fighting the KC Royals to stay out of the cellar of the AL Central..

Alas.. it was not meant to be.. The Indians did something very odd. They won twice as many games as they lost during the first quarter of the season. Ticket sales, hindered by the lousy weather (it's not like the golf courses around the Cleveland metro area were cleaning up on discretionary entertainment spending during that time) began to rise.. and rise steadily.. The original forecast for the annual ticket sales, 1.35 to 1.40 MM tickets sold.. will be surpassed with 45 games remaining.. In other words, the Indians are expecting a pretty good bump in ticket sales to the tune of nearly 50 % higher than what was budgeted.. Now, before the "people only show up for fireworks and bobbleheads" excuses are given, those promotions / enticements are only part of the reason people are going to the corner of Ontario and Carnegie.. they're there to see the Indians play..

As far as the money to be spent, Carmona, as inconsistent as any MOR to potential FOR SP, is inexpensive for a club that is looking to compete well into October.. Grady Sizemore.. same thing but due to injury concerns.. Both players will be retained with their current club options as the club is putting together a bona fide push toward contending.. These two guys, when healthy and consistent, can aid in that cause. The money from ticket sales, merchandising, and TV revenue is growing.. So too are the chances for October baseball in Cleveland..

Winning IS the panacea for what ails for this club.. with winning, comes everything the Indians could want.. including a higher payroll, if that be the biggest need..i.e to pay for a big bat.. (btw.. how is that big bat working out for the CWSox & their acquisition of Adam Dunn?). IMHO, the payroll will rise about into the $ 68-72 MM range for 2012 as the Indians pick up the option for the two guys mentioned, pay small hikes in salary for Choo, Raffy Left and Joe Smith, as well as extend the contracts of Masterson and others. The Indians will also use this additional revenue for the signing of the Dillons, Lindor and other draft picks, perhaps to record level.. One thing that won't see money being spent is acquisitions in the FA market.

WOW..a rise in payroll of nearly 40 %.. that's almost enough to take the Indians payroll allllllll the way up to 10th from the bottom for MLB salaries..

So, in summary, the off season priorities are to circle the wagons, pick up the options of the two key players (Fausto and Grady), sign Choo, West and Raffy Left to their next ARB contracts, look at contract extension that cover arbitration for players entering into their initial ARB I and possibly ARB II years, and cover the draft picks (albeit before the offseason) signings to the fullest extent reasonable. If a player for player trade makes sense, by all means proceed..
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:50 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Yea, I agree it's unrealistic to get a big bat, but what if we decline the Carmona (7 million) and Sizemore (9 million) options and use that 16 million on one big bat? Or maybe this Ubaldo trade shows that the club is willing to spend money again. I mean, just in 2008 and 2009 the payroll was 80 million (compared to 50 at the start of this season). Obviously with arbitration + Ubaldo that number will naturally go up but who knows?


It is and never has been the per year amount. If they could give a guy $10-15M for ONE YEAR, they'd do it in a heartbeat. It is and always have been the contract length because most of the guys getting $10M plus are getting 4-7 year deals. And those guys are players the Yankees, Red Sox, etc are in on and we can't get into a bidding war with them anyway....so you have to find those one year high contract guys (who have risk/reward) or you get the complimentary FAs.

A long term impact bat will only come via trade (or draft).
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby petes999 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:14 pm

I think you take Carmona and $7 million for sure...

Grady ... at $9 million, for a team that needs senior leaders .... unless you can't clear him medically by January (due to being a walking wounded player) then you do it ... as you will spend a few million on a rash of Cabrerra's, Hannahans ... anyway.

I would also put signing Jimenez and/or Astrubal to 2014 at $13-17 million or so as a priority. We may be on the last year of our window by then and be out of the race, but you just stacked up a ton of rebuild capital in 2014 for 1/2 their salary come July (Perez, Masterson, Cabrera, Jimenez .... -- will give you one heck of a rebuild in trade assets). Even after 2013, if our team is too top heavy in contracts and we can't sustain arbitration, just having them for a one-year contract is more valuable in off-season trades for FOR starter and All-star SS, then 2 draft picks for FAs.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby smt1192 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:43 am

JP_Frost wrote:In terms of that righthanded bat, who would you suggest?

My lists:

Trades:

Nelson Cruz
Michael Morse
Chris Young
BJ Upton
Gaby Sanchez
Yonder Alonso
Allen Craig
Corey Hart

FA:

Lance Berkman
Josh Willingham
Paul Konerko
Derrek Lee
Ryan Ludwick


Sanchez really intrigues me. If the front office decides after this year that LaPorta isn't the guy, I think Sanchez would be a good target. He can hit anywhere in the lineup 2-7, but seems to have been between 3-6 in the lineup with the Marlins this year, mostly hitting 4th.

Career wise hits lefties at .320 AVG and an OPS of .929. Against righties he isn't too shabby either: .265 AVG and .770 OPS.

Not entirely sure what we would have to give up to get him, or even if he is even available. He is making league minimum and is signed through 2016 with Arbitration starting in 2013. Good contract situation for the Marlins who are typically a light spending team, so we would need to give them a pretty good offer, however not sure who could be considered a centerpiece of a trade after we just depleted the top level guys with the Ubaldo trade.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:42 pm

smt1192 wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:In terms of that righthanded bat, who would you suggest?

My lists:

Trades:

Nelson Cruz
Michael Morse
Chris Young
BJ Upton
Gaby Sanchez
Yonder Alonso
Allen Craig
Corey Hart

FA:

Lance Berkman
Josh Willingham
Paul Konerko
Derrek Lee
Ryan Ludwick


Sanchez really intrigues me. If the front office decides after this year that LaPorta isn't the guy, I think Sanchez would be a good target. He can hit anywhere in the lineup 2-7, but seems to have been between 3-6 in the lineup with the Marlins this year, mostly hitting 4th.

Career wise hits lefties at .320 AVG and an OPS of .929. Against righties he isn't too shabby either: .265 AVG and .770 OPS.

Not entirely sure what we would have to give up to get him, or even if he is even available. He is making league minimum and is signed through 2016 with Arbitration starting in 2013. Good contract situation for the Marlins who are typically a light spending team, so we would need to give them a pretty good offer, however not sure who could be considered a centerpiece of a trade after we just depleted the top level guys with the Ubaldo trade.
The Marlins will ask for the Indians first born male child.. along with two of their top prospects.. In three years.. he may be available.. If you want to see a CHEAP OWNER..watch how the Marlin operate... they are THEEEEE cheapest in all of sports...
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:10 pm

Yeah you are not gonna get Gaby Sanchez.... Shoe on the other foot..... If you were the Marlins why WOULD you trade him, unless someone was gonna give you a huge package (unfair/crazy) for him
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby daingean » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:30 pm

GeronimoSon wrote: The Marlins will ask for the Indians first born male child.. along with two of their top prospects.. In three years.. he may be available.. If you want to see a CHEAP OWNER..watch how the Marlin operate... they are THEEEEE cheapest in all of sports...


cheaper than the Bengals? Well the new agreement will require the Been Gals to actually spend some more but until that Cincitucky football team actually spends it there should be 1 less E on that that THEEEEE :biggrin:

Edit: forgot 1 character Added the E in "1 less E"
Last edited by daingean on Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby BrianM » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:50 pm

^ Cincitucky....I like it. Also heard someone use Detroilet today.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:07 am

daingean wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote: The Marlins will ask for the Indians first born male child.. along with two of their top prospects.. In three years.. he may be available.. If you want to see a CHEAP OWNER..watch how the Marlin operate... they are THEEEEE cheapest in all of sports...


cheaper than the Bengals? Well the new agreement will require the Been Gals to actually spend some more but until that Cincitucky football team actually spends it there should be 1 less E on that that THEEEEE :biggrin:

Edit: forgot 1 character Added the E in "1 less E"


How about Pennsyltucky... sort of covers both the stillers and the been-gals.. not with quite as much well deserved & appropriate aplomb as the Detroilet, though...
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:03 am

I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:59 am

@ Jp... You sure??? Looks just like one.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby jellis » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:27 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.


I thought about him as well, I know thier was some injury issues and that is why he has fallen back a bit
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby nubballguy » Sun Aug 07, 2011 12:53 pm

jellis wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.


I thought about him as well, I know thier was some injury issues and that is why he has fallen back a bit


Hey swung that toothpick for a GS last night. Pretty Impressive!
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:30 pm

nubballguy wrote:
jellis wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.


I thought about him as well, I know thier was some injury issues and that is why he has fallen back a bit


Hey swung that toothpick for a GS last night. Pretty Impressive!
Being big and not being able to hit a curve ball is a lot of things.. one thing it isn't..is impressive.. This guy has had three tries now with the Padres and has only experienced marginal success back in 2009.. The only "prospect" that would be worthy of this guy is Luis Valbuena.. and the Padres have to pick up the airplane tickets... as they'd be getting the better player..

pass..
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby nubballguy » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:59 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
nubballguy wrote:
jellis wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.


I thought about him as well, I know thier was some injury issues and that is why he has fallen back a bit


Hey swung that toothpick for a GS last night. Pretty Impressive!
Being big and not being able to hit a curve ball is a lot of things.. one thing it isn't..is impressive.. This guy has had three tries now with the Padres and has only experienced marginal success back in 2009.. The only "prospect" that would be worthy of this guy is Luis Valbuena.. and the Padres have to pick up the airplane tickets... as they'd be getting the better player..

pass..

You're right, poorly written post on my part. What I should have said is that he's a pretty impressive specimen. I looked up the Padres roster and saw he's like 6' 6" 270lbs, no wonder the bat looks like a toothpick! Don't really know anything about him as a player; if he can hit a curve or not, sounds like not from what you're saying. With Hawpe going down for the season, I'd imagine he'll get much more of an opportunity to show if injuries or curveballs have held him back so far. Anyway, just thought he was an intriguing guy. If the Indians FO thought he was a guy who was 'blocked' and could play, I'd certainly give up Valbuena to get him.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:21 pm

nubballguy wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
nubballguy wrote:
jellis wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:I was just thinking about possible right handed hitters and I came across a somewhat familiar name: Kyle Blanks.

He is the huge kid playing for the Padres and he's blocked by Rizzo at 1st base and isn't a full time outfielder. I think he would look pretty nice playing 1st for us.

That said, I'm not sure what we should give San Diego in return or if Blanks is an immediate upgrade over LaPorta. Still a guy to keep an eye on though.

and a picture:

Image

No, that is not a toothpick he's holding. It's a real baseball bat.


I thought about him as well, I know thier was some injury issues and that is why he has fallen back a bit


Hey swung that toothpick for a GS last night. Pretty Impressive!
Being big and not being able to hit a curve ball is a lot of things.. one thing it isn't..is impressive.. This guy has had three tries now with the Padres and has only experienced marginal success back in 2009.. The only "prospect" that would be worthy of this guy is Luis Valbuena.. and the Padres have to pick up the airplane tickets... as they'd be getting the better player..

pass..

You're right, poorly written post on my part. What I should have said is that he's a pretty impressive specimen. I looked up the Padres roster and saw he's like 6' 6" 270lbs, no wonder the bat looks like a toothpick! Don't really know anything about him as a player; if he can hit a curve or not, sounds like not from what you're saying. With Hawpe going down for the season, I'd imagine he'll get much more of an opportunity to show if injuries or curveballs have held him back so far. Anyway, just thought he was an intriguing guy. If the Indians FO thought he was a guy who was 'blocked' and could play, I'd certainly give up Valbuena to get him.


Jed Hoyer was interviewed shortly after visiting the Padres minor league affiliate, San Antonio (AA) and had this to say about Kyle Blanks:

Kyle Blanks is getting his first game in the San Antonio Home Opener. "It's time to rip the Band Aid off and let him play everyday."Throwing is the concern as far as his injury is concerned, swinging hasn't been an issue. It's time to stop looking at him as a player with Tommy John Surgery and start thinking of him at 100% healthy. Blanks had a Sophomore slump in his second season in the big leagues. He's on the Padres radar screen. "He's a guy that's ready for the Big Leagues". He could play at first base or in the outfield, but the Padres are focused on him at first base. Depth at first base will sort itself out, you never have a problem of having too many good players


So, for lack of a better way of illustrating what's going on with Kyle Blanks, he's had a couple of chances in MLB and hasn't performed as well as the Padres had anticipated based on his minor league numbers.. He has since undergone major surgery and is working his way back. While he was healthy in his last stint with the Padres, ML pitchers were able to expose his weaknesses and exploit them (46 K's in 102 AB's in 2010). MLB is a tough business and is not merciful when a player's weaknesses are brought into the light..
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby martyinnewyork » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:59 pm

I,for one,am sick of looking at Kyle Blanks...
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:04 am

Here's something else I had in mind.

Why not package both Fausto and Chris Perez and trade them to St. Louis? The return I had in mind:

Allen Craig
Tommy Pham
Trevor Rosenthal

That would be a sweet deal for both teams imo. Craig we have already discussed, as well as Pham, but the real prize would be Rosenthal, who is a young rhp with a mid 90's fastball, solid slider and improving change. He's just 21-years old has been very good this season.

The Cards could obviously have Dave Duncan work with Carmona and Perez would give them much needed relief help.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:59 am

JP_Frost wrote:Here's something else I had in mind.

Why not package both Fausto and Chris Perez and trade them to St. Louis? The return I had in mind:

Allen Craig
Tommy Pham
Trevor Rosenthal

That would be a sweet deal for both teams imo. Craig we have already discussed, as well as Pham, but the real prize would be Rosenthal, who is a young rhp with a mid 90's fastball, solid slider and improving change. He's just 21-years old has been very good this season.

The Cards could obviously have Dave Duncan work with Carmona and Perez would give them much needed relief help.


The deal you are suggesting, sending a MOR SP in the ML's (Fausto) and one of the better closers in the AL (Perez), the Indians would receive the Cardinals preseason 10th, 16th, & 17th best prospects? Seems like the return would be a quite a bit "light" in terms of impacting the Indians in 2012 or 2013. Now, if you were to add either Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez to the trade, then, that would be a trade worthy of what the Indians should be looking at for a return and doubtful that the Cardinals would be interested, imho..
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:21 am

GeronimoSon wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Here's something else I had in mind.

Why not package both Fausto and Chris Perez and trade them to St. Louis? The return I had in mind:

Allen Craig
Tommy Pham
Trevor Rosenthal

That would be a sweet deal for both teams imo. Craig we have already discussed, as well as Pham, but the real prize would be Rosenthal, who is a young rhp with a mid 90's fastball, solid slider and improving change. He's just 21-years old has been very good this season.

The Cards could obviously have Dave Duncan work with Carmona and Perez would give them much needed relief help.


The deal you are suggesting, sending a MOR SP in the ML's (Fausto) and one of the better closers in the AL (Perez), the Indians would receive the Cardinals preseason 10th, 16th, & 17th best prospects? Seems like the return would be a quite a bit "light" in terms of impacting the Indians in 2012 or 2013. Now, if you were to add either Shelby Miller or Carlos Martinez to the trade, then, that would be a trade worthy of what the Indians should be looking at for a return and doubtful that the Cardinals would be interested, imho..


Rosenthal would likely be a top 10 prospect when the new lists come out. Adding Miller or Martinez is a pipedream imo as they are as close to untouchable as Kipnis and Chisenhall. Let's not forget that Fausto especially is somewhat of a question mark going forwardm, so I don't think he'd fetch much.

That said, adding another prospect to that list -- someone like Joe Kelly or John Gast -- could be an option. I'd be happy with that package though.

EDIT: Add Matt Carpenter to the list of throw-ins as well and if you want to be really cheeky ask for Tyrell Jenkins.
Last edited by JP_Frost on Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:23 am

Perez is not even close to one of the best closers in the game. ERA over 3.5, 26k/20bb in 40+ innings. Indians have plenty of better bullpen options for next year. Not sure any other teams see him as anything more than a setup man so he probably wont get you much in return. Carmona is at worst an innings eater and would bring back quite a bit.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:33 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Perez is not even close to one of the best closers in the game. ERA over 3.5, 26k/20bb in 40+ innings. Indians have plenty of better bullpen options for next year. Not sure any other teams see him as anything more than a setup man so he probably wont get you much in return. Carmona is at worst an innings eater and would bring back quite a bit.


I think you can pass him off as "elite" to one of the less Sabermetrically minded clubs in baseball. They'll see his outstanding save percentage and may take a bite.

On another note, one of the guys I'd like to see the Indians make a push for is Josh Willingham, but I'm sure the A's will offer him arbitration. If they do, and the Indians sign him they'll lose a draft pick or 2 (Willingham is type A currently), so I'm not sure the Tribe is willing to part with any picks.

Then again, the new CBA may do away with that type of draft pick compensation, so it may be a moot point. He is a nice RH power bat with good On-base skills.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:46 am

Willingham would be a nice complimentary player who could play LF, 1B and DH. But if he's indeed a type A FA, I'd stay away from him.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:09 pm

Assuming they pick up Sizemore + Carmonas options they will have lots of valuable trade pieces they can move next year. Sizemore, Hafner, Carmona, Donald and/or Phelps, lots of above average bullpen arms. I wouldnt necessarily think that it means theyd be doing poorly next year even if they deal some of them mid-season

Hafners '13 salary isnt guaranteed if hes traded is it?
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:19 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Hafners '13 salary isnt guaranteed if hes traded is it?


No....still would only have to be paid his $2.75M buyout.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby go_tribe » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:55 am

No chance they trade an all star closer in a year that they will be looking to win the division, nor should they.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:04 am

Off season priorities should include a real hitting coach. I still don't understand why we got rid of Nunnaly whose performance was far superior to Fields except for the fact that Sizemore and Acta wanted a scapegoat for his problems after the DL. This move sure wasn't one of Acta's finest but maybe he won't have a hand in the selection of the next one.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:01 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Perez is not even close to one of the best closers in the game. ERA over 3.5, 26k/20bb in 40+ innings. Indians have plenty of better bullpen options for next year. Not sure any other teams see him as anything more than a setup man so he probably wont get you much in return. Carmona is at worst an innings eater and would bring back quite a bit.


Chris Perez is one of the better closers in the AL..that is not a matter for dispute.. Defining a closer by his ERA, the sixth most important stat for a closer, K/BB ratio, IP's, etc. is a distraction away from the purpose of the job. THEEE number one stat for a closer is save conversion percentage. In that regard, in the AL, Chris Perez is top five. The better bullpen options "next year" is a mythical projection that is fundamentally undefined. What other teams see in Chris Perez is a closer who shuts the door on them when he comes into the game in the late innings with the lead. His return as a young, under control closer would be huge.

I Agree with you on Carmona..
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby Magneticnorth451 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:41 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Chris Perez is one of the better closers in the AL..that is not a matter for dispute.. Defining a closer by his ERA, the sixth most important stat for a closer, K/BB ratio, IP's, etc. is a distraction away from the purpose of the job. THEEE number one stat for a closer is save conversion percentage. In that regard, in the AL, Chris Perez is top five. The better bullpen options "next year" is a mythical projection that is fundamentally undefined. What other teams see in Chris Perez is a closer who shuts the door on them when he comes into the game in the late innings with the lead. His return as a young, under control closer would be huge.

I Agree with you on Carmona..


If you can get a great return for Chris Perez, then I would entertain the idea of trading him off.

I think you could plug Vinnie Pestano into the closers role and not miss a beat, and probably get better results, in my opinion.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:05 am

Magneticnorth451 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Chris Perez is one of the better closers in the AL..that is not a matter for dispute.. Defining a closer by his ERA, the sixth most important stat for a closer, K/BB ratio, IP's, etc. is a distraction away from the purpose of the job. THEEE number one stat for a closer is save conversion percentage. In that regard, in the AL, Chris Perez is top five. The better bullpen options "next year" is a mythical projection that is fundamentally undefined. What other teams see in Chris Perez is a closer who shuts the door on them when he comes into the game in the late innings with the lead. His return as a young, under control closer would be huge.

I Agree with you on Carmona..


If you can get a great return for Chris Perez, then I would entertain the idea of trading him off.

I think you could plug Vinnie Pestano into the closers role and not miss a beat, and probably get better results, in my opinion.
Until Vinnie has the job and performs successfully, it wouldn't be a gamble that should be considered. Opportunities where Vinnie can be tried include the fourth game in four days where there is a save opportunity.. say, perhaps, this Friday?
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby danh8 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:24 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Off season priorities should include a real hitting coach. I still don't understand why we got rid of Nunnaly whose performance was far superior to Fields except for the fact that Sizemore and Acta wanted a scapegoat for his problems after the DL. This move sure wasn't one of Acta's finest but maybe he won't have a hand in the selection of the next one.


I was told by one of the Indian scouts that Acta had issues with Nunnally's lack of usage of video, and using that as a tool in getting player's to understand their swings and make proper adjustments. He did loads of cage work but felt that the video aspect was a key aspect lacking in his tutelage.

But, I'm in agreement with you and take your thought line even further. I think a thorough analysis and appropriate changes made within our entire system when it comes to developing hitters. Something is lacking. It's troublesome to see the extreme void this organization has in developing offensive position players, and even at the major league level getting our players to fulfill their potential and become complete hitters. From seeing our lack of hitters developing throughout our system, and then seeing guys like Peralta who continued a path that many Indians hitters go through where they stagnate and then regress, only to see him go to Detroit and see his flaws corrected and back on a positive career path after leaving our people.

It's telling, and shows something isn't kosher within our system when it comes to player development of our position players.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:42 pm

danh8 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Off season priorities should include a real hitting coach. I still don't understand why we got rid of Nunnaly whose performance was far superior to Fields except for the fact that Sizemore and Acta wanted a scapegoat for his problems after the DL. This move sure wasn't one of Acta's finest but maybe he won't have a hand in the selection of the next one.


I was told by one of the Indian scouts that Acta had issues with Nunnally's lack of usage of video, and using that as a tool in getting player's to understand their swings and make proper adjustments. He did loads of cage work but felt that the video aspect was a key aspect lacking in his tutelage.

But, I'm in agreement with you and take your thought line even further. I think a thorough analysis and appropriate changes made within our entire system when it comes to developing hitters. Something is lacking. It's troublesome to see the extreme void this organization has in developing offensive position players, and even at the major league level getting our players to fulfill their potential and become complete hitters. From seeing our lack of hitters developing throughout our system, and then seeing guys like Peralta who continued a path that many Indians hitters go through where they stagnate and then regress, only to see him go to Detroit and see his flaws corrected and back on a positive career path after leaving our people.

It's telling, and shows something isn't kosher within our system when it comes to player development of our position players.

Nice write, dan. Whether you agree or not. I really enjoy focused posts like yours. It is easy to respond and to the point. It seems to be systemwide and not just Fields. Now some of it has to be put at the hands of the drafters and signers but the lack of any hitting prospect at an entire level like Kinston and a sub-par Akron lineup disturbs me. Although there appears to be some batting potential in LC and MV, it is pretty scattered and little movement has occurred with the field players with just non prospects, excluding Aguilar, getting to Kinston. I know there will always be down seasons at farm teams but not a "black hole" like our organization has.

As far as Nunnaly goes, from what I hear, your assessment is valid. He was a "hands on" guy who felt his eyes were better than any tape. But, from what I understand from sources with more knowledge about this than I have, the proverbial "straw" in this scenario was Sizemore. Sizemore "lied" to management, especially to Acta, about his health and Nunnally insisted that he was not healthy and that his batting stroke was one of many reasons why Sizemore should not be playing. Acta challenged Nunnally to show him the problems on tape and they had words that led to Nunnally's repalcement. In retrospect, we know that Sizemore was not truthful about his condition and has likely played his last meaningful game for the Indians this year and maybe beyond. I remember posting earlier that Sizemore may not really return this year, much less in August. Stones were hurled by Sizemore advocates, one in particular, who said he would be back earlier. Irrespective of the accuracy of this, it is clear to me that the ML team hit much better with Nunnally than they have with Fields even though Fields has much more talent to work with, albeit experience challenged. IMO Acta let his ego cash chips and he made a terrible decision in this mid-season replacement. Acta seems to feel he is able to manage the Cleveland media and fans. Sooner or later, even Caesar had to deal with his mistakes. Hope Acta can face his with better results. :friends:
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:02 pm

Geronimo, I disagree. Yes, save percentage is great for showing success now but it does not show overall effectiveness, dominance, nor help predict future issues or jumps in performance. The rate stats show that as well as a lot of the other advanced metrics. The Indians themselves believe that too, and trust me there is some concern with regard to his drop in performance this season. Night five alarm fire concern, but some concern nonetheless. He is a good closer, but hardly elite or dominating.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:39 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:Perez is not even close to one of the best closers in the game. ERA over 3.5, 26k/20bb in 40+ innings. Indians have plenty of better bullpen options for next year. Not sure any other teams see him as anything more than a setup man so he probably wont get you much in return. Carmona is at worst an innings eater and would bring back quite a bit.


Chris Perez is one of the better closers in the AL..that is not a matter for dispute.. Defining a closer by his ERA, the sixth most important stat for a closer, K/BB ratio, IP's, etc. is a distraction away from the purpose of the job. THEEE number one stat for a closer is save conversion percentage. In that regard, in the AL, Chris Perez is top five. The better bullpen options "next year" is a mythical projection that is fundamentally undefined. What other teams see in Chris Perez is a closer who shuts the door on them when he comes into the game in the late innings with the lead. His return as a young, under control closer would be huge.

I Agree with you on Carmona..


Perez shuts the door? You mean the 13 apperances in which he has allowed an earned run, and 11 of those were in save situations. Look, he has a poor K rate, a very poor BB/K Rate, his xfip and fip are well over a run higher than his ERA and his velocity is down. Not saying he's terrible, but those are some serious red flag. Certainly serious enough to call him anything but a shutdown closer.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:58 pm

I think GS's points are one of the main reasons why you consider trading a guy like Perez if the deal is right.

Some GMs have the same line of thinking in that they see save percentage as the be-all and end-all of all stats for closers. So, you should get high value for him.

The main question with a trade of your closer is that, to a casual fan trading your "all star closer" probably wouldn't sit too well.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:59 pm

IMO, Perez wouldn't return you enough talent to where you could justify the trade.
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Re: Off-Season Priorities

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:10 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:I think GS's points are one of the main reasons why you consider trading a guy like Perez if the deal is right.

Some GMs have the same line of thinking in that they see save percentage as the be-all and end-all of all stats for closers. So, you should get high value for him.

The main question with a trade of your closer is that, to a casual fan trading your "all star closer" probably wouldn't sit too well.


Alot of things don't sit well with the casual fan. In the end it's about making smart baseball decisions. I know the VMart trade caused some hysteria. Not sure how much they're bad-mouthing Masterson now.
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