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Re: trades

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:19 pm

stoike wrote:
jellis wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Say good bye to O-Cabby..

Looks like the Giants and Indians have made a trade for Orlando Cabrera.. Anyone hear any details of the trade?

Thomas Neal


Nice move! A good hitter that plays a good outfield. LIKE this one!


Looking him up, the #5 player in their system... mid .700s OPS... .295 BA... plays all 3 OF positions...

For Ocab? That's a steal.
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Re: trades

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:19 pm

Edible14 wrote:
jellis wrote:I believe I was the only person who had Pom ranked in the top 2 this year, yet I am happy with this deal. You get a player who is controlled for the next 3 years who has a great head and arm. I think he will settle in and be a great addition


I think Tony had it right when he said that we'd be elated if Pomeranz turned out to be AS good as Jimenez. In a straight-up trade, I'd do that in a heartbeat. White is a guy that definitely has flame-out potential at this point. The splitter has a few people here concerned, and lots of analysts have said that he's probably better off in the bullpen.

This isn't a slam-dunk trade for Antonetti, but trades rarely are. I come back to what Antonetti said on the radio about a week ago, that you don't TRY to demolish teams in a trade. You're looking for a deal that satisfies both sides. This deal, as of right now, does that. It has the potential to go either way, which tells you that it's fair. It very well could be that Pomeranz - either due to Ubaldo's ineffectiveness or Pom's talent - ends up being better. It very well could be that White and Gardner end up adding significantly to the Rockies' team and they end up "winning" this trade. It also could be that White and Gardner end up as bullpen arms, McBride never sees the bigs and Pomeranz never becomes a true ace while Ubaldo becomes our legit ace and leads us to a world series. I'm not really sure that one scenario is any more likely than the other.

The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Unfortunately, usually our window for contention is always relatively small. Last time we had 2005-2008...
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Re: trades

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:23 pm

Edible14 wrote:The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Agreed. Now that we no longer have top pitching prospects we still have e a pretty big problem going forward barring some surprise performances and that is complete lack of upper level OF depth in the system, (until now)...We definitely have a lot of young OFers way down there, so still sort of a mystery.... Only Chen has been consistently good in Akron and not a single hitter in Kinston has deserved a call up this year....Definielty a gulf between talent there and the FO realizes it and decided that 2011-13 is going to be the next great Cleveland Indian run.
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Re: trades

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:24 pm

deleted post - repeated in error
Last edited by MadThinker88 on Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: trades

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:26 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Agreed. Now that we no longer have top pitching prospects we still have e a pretty big problem going forward barring some surprise performances and that is complete lack of upper level OF depth in the system, (until now)...We definitely have a lot of young OFers way down there, so still sort of a mystery.... Only Chen has been consistently good in Akron and not a single hitter in Kinston has deserved a call up this year....Definielty a gulf between talent there and the FO realizes it and decided that 2011-13 is going to be the next great Cleveland Indian run.


We lack depth at first base in the system in general, minus Aguilar. OF depth is a legit concern. And SP depth also becomes somewhat concerning.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:35 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Agreed. Now that we no longer have top pitching prospects we still have e a pretty big problem going forward barring some surprise performances and that is complete lack of upper level OF depth in the system, (until now)...We definitely have a lot of young OFers way down there, so still sort of a mystery.... Only Chen has been consistently good in Akron and not a single hitter in Kinston has deserved a call up this year....Definielty a gulf between talent there and the FO realizes it and decided that 2011-13 is going to be the next great Cleveland Indian run.


We lack depth at first base in the system in general, minus Aguilar. OF depth is a legit concern. And SP depth also becomes somewhat concerning.
The Indians will have Grady (3 or 4 weeks) and Choo (2 weeks), Carrera, Neal, Fukudome, and Brantley along with DFA candidate Kearns.. Seven OF'ers.. Neal & Carrera will probably be given some time in AAA to further mature leaving 5 OF'er.. depth seems like it will be okay.. not great.

It also wouldn't be a huge surprise to see Nick Hagadone be moved /stretched out as an SP, now that he's shown a full season of health..This should add to the SP depth that will include either Huff or Carrasco at AAA, depending on how the Indians decide to go...
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Re: trades

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:36 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Agreed. Now that we no longer have top pitching prospects we still have e a pretty big problem going forward barring some surprise performances and that is complete lack of upper level OF depth in the system, (until now)...We definitely have a lot of young OFers way down there, so still sort of a mystery.... Only Chen has been consistently good in Akron and not a single hitter in Kinston has deserved a call up this year....Definielty a gulf between talent there and the FO realizes it and decided that 2011-13 is going to be the next great Cleveland Indian run.


The only comfort you can really take is that the Indians could still have a pretty good rotation once Masterson and Jimenez leave. Rondon, Knapp and Carrasco could all end up being legit TOR pitchers. There's a chance Tomlin doesn't turn out to be a house of cards. We've got plenty of MOR/BOR guys like Barnes, McAllister, Kluber, DeLaCruz, Packer, McFarland, Adams, Soto, Alex Perez, etc. It's impossible to really project that far into the future, but with Santana, Kipnis, Chis and Brantley still probably on the team, it's possible that they're still hanging in there. But that seems like a very "fragile" projection to say the least.
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Re: trades

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:40 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:The thing that concerns me right now is just how small that window of contention is. We have Choo and ACab for 2 more years. Masterson, Chris Perez and Jimenez for 3. We've got Hafner for one more year. I am concerned that by the end of 2014 we'll have very little left, and we may sharply take a dive in performance. The dearth of talent in Akron and Kinston doesn't provide any comfort there.


Agreed. Now that we no longer have top pitching prospects we still have e a pretty big problem going forward barring some surprise performances and that is complete lack of upper level OF depth in the system, (until now)...We definitely have a lot of young OFers way down there, so still sort of a mystery.... Only Chen has been consistently good in Akron and not a single hitter in Kinston has deserved a call up this year....Definielty a gulf between talent there and the FO realizes it and decided that 2011-13 is going to be the next great Cleveland Indian run.


We lack depth at first base in the system in general, minus Aguilar. OF depth is a legit concern. And SP depth also becomes somewhat concerning.
The Indians will have Grady (3 or 4 weeks) and Choo (2 weeks), Carrera, Neal, Fukudome, and Brantley along with DFA candidate Kearns.. Seven OF'ers.. Neal & Carrera will probably be given some time in AAA to further mature leaving 5 OF'er.. depth seems like it will be okay.. not great.

It also wouldn't be a huge surprise to see Nick Hagadone be moved /stretched out as an SP, now that he's shown a full season of health..This should add to the SP depth that will include either Huff or Carrasco at AAA, depending on how the Indians decide to go...


Sorry, probably should have been more specific, OF depth in farm system.
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Re: trades

Postby criznit2009 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:45 pm

I think 3rd base is now a really weak spot in the system too. Jordan Smith is prolly our #1 prospect there now. He looks ok, but lacks the ideal power for the positon at this point.
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Re: trades

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:48 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
jellis wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Say good bye to O-Cabby..

Looks like the Giants and Indians have made a trade for Orlando Cabrera.. Anyone hear any details of the trade?

Thomas Neal


I like this deal. It might be another Garko for Scott Barnes. The Tribe needs to keep San Fran on speed dial.

Or Alvin Morman for Jacob Cruz, had a lot of luck selling vets to SF, I remember when they signed Micheal Tucker to intentionally lose their first rounder so they wouldn't have to pay a ton for some kid.
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Re: trades

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:00 am

as bad as the hitting has been, there were cracks in our rotation. If we were going to contend this year, carlos carrasco could not be our #2 of #3 starter.

Now with jimenez, we have jimenez, masterson, tomlin, carrasco, and carmona. Our problem is that we have all righties unless we want to take carrasco out and put in huff.

I still think we gave up too much, but alex white was not going to help us out of the rotation this year. We would have to wait until next year.

We definitely needed an upgrade to our rotation, but the question will be if we gave up too much.
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Re: trades

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:03 am

criznit2009 wrote:I think 3rd base is now a really weak spot in the system too. Jordan Smith is prolly our #1 prospect there now. He looks ok, but lacks the ideal power for the positon at this point.


I would think that Urshela and Bellows are actually well thought of.
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Re: trades

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:11 am

Chip Davis wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:I think 3rd base is now a really weak spot in the system too. Jordan Smith is prolly our #1 prospect there now. He looks ok, but lacks the ideal power for the positon at this point.


I would think that Urshela and Bellows are actually well thought of.


Yea, with Smith, Urshela, Bellows, and Chiz for like 6 more years, I wouldn't worry about third base.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:09 am

As is the case with any significant trade, and the Jimenez Trade is exactly that, the media pundits will wade in to opine on the winner or loser, as the case may be.. The early returns show:

-Indian fans are 'disappointed' that both Drew Pomeranz and Alex White were included in the trade. The Indians front office had "sold" the fans that the way to a championship was through the steady and positive development of draft choices along with "astute" trades to fill needs. This trade flies squarely in the face of that philosophy. This was a lightning bolt from the skies. Gone are the 2010 and 2009 first round picks, two front of the rotation or, at least, serviceable major league starting pitchers that would become the foundation for a solid pitching rotation. In their place is a 27 year old SP that "was" the goods.. but.. but.. but..

Well, Jimenez is and remains the goods. He is a FOR with a big arm and tremendous talent. He is under team control for through the 2014 season (or perhaps 2013 season, depending on who's version of his contract you talk with). A FOR for this team..& the Indians didn't have to cough up their top two prospects, Chisenhall and Kipnis..

Rich Passan,at Yahoo, wrote an interesting article about the trade.. something that can/should be taken into account as this season progresses: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... cts_073111

The Thomas Neal for Ocab trade: Kudos to Chris Antonetti for the skill to fill a need with a potential high upside talented youngster for, what is considered, excess baggage. The next "guy" being brought up, Jason Donald, has been more than ready for the promotion back to the ML's since his unfortunate start to the season, i.e. two injuries that kept him sidelined/ineffective for half the season. Thomas Neal was mentioned in an earlier thread as a potential target.. good foresight.. Neal has the kind of swing and has developed the kind of plate discipline that will play well on the North coast..

So, with the roster redone, the only question will be, who goes to AAA when Ubaldo is officially acquired? Right now, the Indians have:

Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Josh Tomlin
Carlos Carrasco
Fausto Carmona
David Huff

as their six SP's. Perhaps sleeping on this overnight will allow Chris Antonetti & Manny Acta to come to the conclusion that Car-Car wouldn't be 'damaged' with a short stay in AAA. It might also give Car-Car some perspective on why a major leaguer is considered a "professional" first and an athlete second..At least, that could be the short term answer to this dilemma.
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Re: trades

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:15 am

indians1 wrote:as bad as the hitting has been, there were cracks in our rotation. If we were going to contend this year, carlos carrasco could not be our #2 of #3 starter.

Now with jimenez, we have jimenez, masterson, tomlin, carrasco, and carmona. Our problem is that we have all righties unless we want to take carrasco out and put in huff.

I still think we gave up too much, but alex white was not going to help us out of the rotation this year. We would have to wait until next year.

We definitely needed an upgrade to our rotation, but the question will be if we gave up too much.


I'm wondering whose spot Jimenez takes in the rotation - Carrasco or Huff? If you look at their July numbers, Carrasco is back in Columbus, to work on both his attitude and mechanics. Another possibility is to cut Durbin and make Carrasco the long man.

For next year the top four should be Jimenez, Masterson, Carmona, and Tomlin. There will be an epic battle for the 5th spot between Carrasco, Huff, Gomez, McAllister, and Barnes, a battle that might go on all year. Meanwhile, guys like Judy, Chen Lee, Bryson, Hagadone, and Cory Burns will be pushing for bullpen jobs. We could have one hell of a staff next year.

The Jimenez trade is great for now, but it could bite us in the ass starting in 2014 when Jimenez leaves in free agency and both Pomeranz and White are 25-year-old 15 game winners in Colorado. But we can't always be building for 3-4 years down the road.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:38 am

...The Jimenez trade is great for now, but it could bite us in the ass starting in 2014 when Jimenez leaves in free agency...
..and if/when Jimenez leaves via free agency, the Indians will receive an A and a B draft choice who could become fifteen game winners... or the Indians will trade Jimenez to another club that is looking for a FOR and the Indians will make another 'haul' of blue chip prospects..

In the interim.. the Indians will enjoy the services of a FOR for the 2011 season and the 2012 season.. should be loads of fun knowing that the rotation is rock solid 1 through 4 with a plethora of already present prospects fighting over the chance to be the # 5 starter.. That plethora includes the likes of Huff, Carrasco, Hagadone, Gomez, Adams, Rondon, De la Cruz.. etc.. In other words..the list is pretty substantial..

Should be more than adequate to fill whatever 'need' exists in the 2014 season...
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Re: trades

Postby ndog » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:56 am

Tony was reporting this morning that we were in on Bourn. Looks like Bourn was just traded to the Braves.

I guess we may be getting Ludwick today.
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Re: trades

Postby A.Zajac » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:04 am

GeronimoSon wrote:As is the case with any significant trade, and the Jimenez Trade is exactly that, the media pundits will wade in to opine on the winner or loser, as the case may be.. The early returns show:

-Indian fans are 'disappointed' that both Drew Pomeranz and Alex White were included in the trade. The Indians front office had "sold" the fans that the way to a championship was through the steady and positive development of draft choices along with "astute" trades to fill needs. This trade flies squarely in the face of that philosophy. This was a lightning bolt from the skies. Gone are the 2010 and 2009 first round picks, two front of the rotation or, at least, serviceable major league starting pitchers that would become the foundation for a solid pitching rotation. In their place is a 27 year old SP that "was" the goods.. but.. but.. but..

Well, Jimenez is and remains the goods. He is a FOR with a big arm and tremendous talent. He is under team control for through the 2014 season (or perhaps 2013 season, depending on who's version of his contract you talk with). A FOR for this team..& the Indians didn't have to cough up their top two prospects, Chisenhall and Kipnis..

Rich Passan,at Yahoo, wrote an interesting article about the trade.. something that can/should be taken into account as this season progresses: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... cts_073111

The Thomas Neal for Ocab trade: Kudos to Chris Antonetti for the skill to fill a need with a potential high upside talented youngster for, what is considered, excess baggage. The next "guy" being brought up, Jason Donald, has been more than ready for the promotion back to the ML's since his unfortunate start to the season, i.e. two injuries that kept him sidelined/ineffective for half the season. Thomas Neal was mentioned in an earlier thread as a potential target.. good foresight.. Neal has the kind of swing and has developed the kind of plate discipline that will play well on the North coast..

So, with the roster redone, the only question will be, who goes to AAA when Ubaldo is officially acquired? Right now, the Indians have:

Justin Masterson
Ubaldo Jimenez
Josh Tomlin
Carlos Carrasco
Fausto Carmona
David Huff

as their six SP's. Perhaps sleeping on this overnight will allow Chris Antonetti & Manny Acta to come to the conclusion that Car-Car wouldn't be 'damaged' with a short stay in AAA. It might also give Car-Car some perspective on why a major leaguer is considered a "professional" first and an athlete second..At least, that could be the short term answer to this dilemma.


You mean Jeff Passan... :good:
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Re: trades

Postby go_tribe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:32 am

At first I was absolutely pissed about the Jimenez trade. I was at the Tribe game last night and the atmosphere was the strangest I've seen. I couldn't stay off the BlackBerry and had friends texting me every 2 minutes about more names being thrown into the deal. Not to mention they were getting shutout yet again to the Royals, the Laporta crash at home was surreal.

After a long drive home and a nights sleep, I realize this is a really solid trade. FIrst of all, it helps us win not only this year, but the next 3 years. Pomeranz and White wouldn't have that impact. If Jimenez is healthy (which I believe he is) He's a top 5 pitcher in the A.L.

Second, this makes us LEGIT contenders to advance in the playoffs this year. Everyone pretty much agrees that prior to this trade, even if we made the playoffs we'd get destroyed. Beyond Masterson, our post-season rotation was scary. Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco are not guys you want throwing in game 2 of a short series. Now with JImenez and Masterson you can have Tomlin at 3 much like Westbrook was in 2007. Who has a better 1-2 than us now? Boston maybe but certainly not the Yankees or Rangers

Third, yes we need hitting but looking at our roster, theres more than enough talent to overcome this slump. Everyones pressing right now, but getting Choo back and maybe Sizemore, along with the confidence the FO has shown that we can win now, I believe we can get through this and have a potent lineup running on all cylinders by Oct.

And lastly, this move sends a message to the fans that we want to win. Theres the commitment to win and hopefully the attendance starts to reflect that.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:09 am

go_tribe wrote:At first I was absolutely pissed about the Jimenez trade. I was at the Tribe game last night and the atmosphere was the strangest I've seen. I couldn't stay off the BlackBerry and had friends texting me every 2 minutes about more names being thrown into the deal. Not to mention they were getting shutout yet again to the Royals, the Laporta crash at home was surreal.

After a long drive home and a nights sleep, I realize this is a really solid trade. FIrst of all, it helps us win not only this year, but the next 3 years. Pomeranz and White wouldn't have that impact. If Jimenez is healthy (which I believe he is) He's a top 5 pitcher in the A.L.

Second, this makes us LEGIT contenders to advance in the playoffs this year. Everyone pretty much agrees that prior to this trade, even if we made the playoffs we'd get destroyed. Beyond Masterson, our post-season rotation was scary. Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco are not guys you want throwing in game 2 of a short series. Now with JImenez and Masterson you can have Tomlin at 3 much like Westbrook was in 2007. Who has a better 1-2 than us now? Boston maybe but certainly not the Yankees or Rangers

Third, yes we need hitting but looking at our roster, theres more than enough talent to overcome this slump. Everyones pressing right now, but getting Choo back and maybe Sizemore, along with the confidence the FO has shown that we can win now, I believe we can get through this and have a potent lineup running on all cylinders by Oct.

And lastly, this move sends a message to the fans that we want to win. Theres the commitment to win and hopefully the attendance starts to reflect that.
Thirty five thousand fans on Friday night.. thirty one thousand fans on Saturday night.. and another big crowd today.. for the Royals series.. the FO can't be too unhappy with the turnout for this weekend series..

There was something 'special' about the way Matt Laporta came through last night.. something that, while still a ways off.. said, hmm.. this is the kind of RH power bat that isn't common in the major leagues save for St Louis. Both his double and his homer were effortless smashes.. could be the start of something very very big...

Today's game.. beautiful day.. should be a fun time.. go tribe...
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Re: trades

Postby go_tribe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:18 am

I'm not very high on Laporta, but my respect for him skyrocketed last night after the collision. You're in a playoff race, you'v been no hit and havn't scored in 24 innings, you put it all on the line and smash your way home. Even though he was out, it was like he matured in that moment, and the team fed off that play, that energy.
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Re: trades

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:21 am

GeronimoSon wrote:There was something 'special' about the way Matt Laporta came through last night.. something that, while still a ways off.. said, hmm.. this is the kind of RH power bat that isn't common in the major leagues save for St Louis. Both his double and his homer were effortless smashes.. could be the start of something very very big...


Off of 2 horrible meatballs right down broadway...don't see it yet...if he would have crushed a breaking ball or slider or well located FB, sure...but the XBHs yesterday were off of mistakes...hey, it's good he hits them but it's not really something special
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Re: trades

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:30 am

LaPorta definitely is in the role of the teams X-factor. If he can get hot and start producing a bit more, could be the most important step to increase the offense. Looks like Ludwick is coming, hope it isn't too much. Have to think some BP guys have to be in play on this one, maybe EZ even.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:37 am

Tondo wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:There was something 'special' about the way Matt Laporta came through last night.. something that, while still a ways off.. said, hmm.. this is the kind of RH power bat that isn't common in the major leagues save for St Louis. Both his double and his homer were effortless smashes.. could be the start of something very very big...


Off of 2 horrible meatballs right down broadway...don't see it yet...if he would have crushed a breaking ball or slider or well located FB, sure...but the XBHs yesterday were off of mistakes...hey, it's good he hits them but it's not really something special
Oh.. okay.. I can see your point.. the baseball probably had stitches that were too red, too..

<rolls eyes>
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Re: trades

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:08 pm

go_tribe wrote:Second, this makes us LEGIT contenders to advance in the playoffs this year. Everyone pretty much agrees that prior to this trade, even if we made the playoffs we'd get destroyed. Beyond Masterson, our post-season rotation was scary. Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco are not guys you want throwing in game 2 of a short series. Now with JImenez and Masterson you can have Tomlin at 3 much like Westbrook was in 2007. Who has a better 1-2 than us now? Boston maybe but certainly not the Yankees or Rangers


Do think this helps us this year, and agree should we get into the playoffs, this gives us a better playoff rotation.

However, depends big time on what Ubaldo you are getting. And dont' sleep on the Angels. Only 2 games back with Weaver and Haren at the top....and Ervin Santana as a 3 is not too shabby. Rangers do have 3 guys top13 in ERA right now, though secondary numbers aren't great for 2 of them.
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Re: trades

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:07 am

There was something 'special' about the way Matt Laporta came through last night.. something that, while still a ways off.. said, hmm.. this is the kind of RH power bat that isn't common in the major leagues save for St Louis. Both his double and his homer were effortless smashes.. could be the start of something very very big...


Overreacting just a tad. Dont let 1 at bat outweigh 3 years of less than mediocre play. 0-3 Sunday, back to reality
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Re: trades

Postby theshow » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:24 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote: There was something 'special' about the way Matt Laporta came through last night.. something that, while still a ways off.. said, hmm.. this is the kind of RH power bat that isn't common in the major leagues save for St Louis. Both his double and his homer were effortless smashes.. could be the start of something very very big...



Overreacting just a tad. Dont let 1 at bat outweigh 3 years of less than mediocre play. 0-3 Sunday, back to reality



Yeah LaPorta sucks.... that guy is a huge bust.... At this stage of the game he should be putting up better at bats. He has a slow bat, and it is frustrating because he is strong and does have some pop.... I feel like a move back to Left Field may increase his value for us... play Santana at 1st and make Marson the everyday catcher
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:13 am

Speaking of the Orlando Cabrera Trade...

One of the main issues when looking at a trade of a savvy vet like Orlando Cabrera for a relatively unknown prospect in Thomas Neal.. is how that player was viewed before arriving into Cleveland's system. Whatever benefits and "peccadillos" could be tied to O-Cabby, they are no longer at issue. He's gone and will be the starting SS in SF for the defending World Series champs.. he might even grow a beard to be weird.. who knows?...

But, back to Thomas Neal. Neal is a BIG GUY. A Linebacker/Running back in a baseball uniform. Think Bo Jackson. There are a number of SF Giant-centric blogs that are rather effusive about Thomas Neal and his accomplishments and national "Writers" that don't really heap praise on Neal as he wends his way through the Giants minor league system (examples of the bipolar opinions of Thomas Neal):

http://obsessivegiantscompulsive.blogsp ... homas.html

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... co-giants/

Bottom line, Thomas Neal will be in a Columbus uniform and we'll be able to see how he plays with our own eyes. He could be exactly what the Indians need.. a RH hitting power bat that plays LF. This ties into a larger approach for our Northcoast Warriors... Recall in 2002 when Mark Shapiro claimed the Indians would be competing while rebuilding?. Well, Isn't the Indians front office is doing that right now?.. Has anyone ever seen it work before?. With a team not named the Yankees?
Last edited by GeronimoSon on Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: trades

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:29 am

If the Tribe decides not to exercise Grady's option and he moves on next year, I wonder if we'll go with a 3-man platoon in LF and CF.

Against right-handers, Zeke plays center with Brantley in left. Against lefties it would be Brantley in center and Neal in left.
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Re: trades

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:14 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Bottom line, Thomas Neal will be in a Columbus uniform and we'll be able to see how he plays with our own eyes. He could be exactly what the Indians need.. a RH hitting power bat that plays LF. This ties into a larger approach for our Northcoast Warriors... Recall in 2002 when Mark Shapiro claimed the Indians would be competing while rebuilding?. Well, Isn't the Indians front office is doing that right now?.. Has anyone ever seen it work before?. With a team not named the Yankees?


Hopefully the injuries are what zapped his power. Have seen a 2 year trend though. Definitely a nice haul for OC though. Even if he ends up a Type B, not sure you'll get a draft pick as he very likely may retire.

Like the buy and sell approach. Rays have been doing this the last couple years and have had some success. AL East burden has put a damper on things this year though.
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Re: trades

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:47 pm

First time I've been on the boards in a few days since I'm still on vacation... so did anything happen before the trade deadline? :smile:

It hurts giving up the top two pitching prospects for Jimenez... I'm apprehensive, but I'm not going to slag the trade. I find it odd that a few people seem to be complaining about giving up Pomeranz in the deal. There's no way they were ever going to get Jimenez without dealing Pomeranz, so that's the price that had to be paid unless you just didn't want Jimenez at all. Now if there was a way to get it done without also including White (and without replacing him with Kipnis or Chisenhall) I would have been ecstatic, but I doubt that was going to happen. Due to fantasy baseball, I've been on the Ubaldo bandwagon since he was in AAA, so I'll have no problem rooting for him.

I wasn't even aware of the Orlando Cabrera for Thomas Neal trade until I logged on here, so this is like Christmas morning. Simply releasing Cabrera would have been a good transaction. Getting a legit prospect who fits an area of team need in return for that worthless carcass is highway robbery by the Tribe.
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Re: trades

Postby daingean » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:11 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:First time I've been on the boards in a few days since I'm still on vacation... so did anything happen before the trade deadline? :smile:

It hurts giving up the top two pitching prospects for Jimenez... I'm apprehensive, but I'm not going to slag the trade. I find it odd that a few people seem to be complaining about giving up Pomeranz in the deal. There's no way they were ever going to get Jimenez without dealing Pomeranz, so that's the price that had to be paid unless you just didn't want Jimenez at all. Now if there was a way to get it done without also including White (and without replacing him with Kipnis or Chisenhall) I would have been ecstatic, but I doubt that was going to happen. Due to fantasy baseball, I've been on the Ubaldo bandwagon since he was in AAA, so I'll have no problem rooting for him.

I wasn't even aware of the Orlando Cabrera for Thomas Neal trade until I logged on here, so this is like Christmas morning. Simply releasing Cabrera would have been a good transaction. Getting a legit prospect who fits an area of team need in return for that worthless carcass is highway robbery by the Tribe.


I was not for paying that much for Ubaldo with his decreased velo. I have since read (maybe from Tony) that CA and the scouts witnessed him hitting 98 MPH but sitting mostly in the 92-93 MPH range. If the 98 reading is accurate then I am good with the trade. Sure we gave up a ton but Pom is in AA ball and still has to get to the majors. White has a finger injury and the Miller tragedy is still fresh in my mind. Sure I would have been good with keeping White and Pom but Ubaldo is a FOR (if his velo issues have been restored).

I am very happy with the O-Cab for Neal trade. We definitely need some OFers that are close to ML ready. :clapping:
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:05 pm

daingean wrote:
Pork Chop Pough wrote:First time I've been on the boards in a few days since I'm still on vacation... so did anything happen before the trade deadline? :smile:

It hurts giving up the top two pitching prospects for Jimenez... I'm apprehensive, but I'm not going to slag the trade. I find it odd that a few people seem to be complaining about giving up Pomeranz in the deal. There's no way they were ever going to get Jimenez without dealing Pomeranz, so that's the price that had to be paid unless you just didn't want Jimenez at all. Now if there was a way to get it done without also including White (and without replacing him with Kipnis or Chisenhall) I would have been ecstatic, but I doubt that was going to happen. Due to fantasy baseball, I've been on the Ubaldo bandwagon since he was in AAA, so I'll have no problem rooting for him.

I wasn't even aware of the Orlando Cabrera for Thomas Neal trade until I logged on here, so this is like Christmas morning. Simply releasing Cabrera would have been a good transaction. Getting a legit prospect who fits an area of team need in return for that worthless carcass is highway robbery by the Tribe.


I was not for paying that much for Ubaldo with his decreased velo. I have since read (maybe from Tony) that CA and the scouts witnessed him hitting 98 MPH but sitting mostly in the 92-93 MPH range. If the 98 reading is accurate then I am good with the trade. Sure we gave up a ton but Pom is in AA ball and still has to get to the majors. White has a finger injury and the Miller tragedy is still fresh in my mind. Sure I would have been good with keeping White and Pom but Ubaldo is a FOR (if his velo issues have been restored).

I am very happy with the O-Cab for Neal trade. We definitely need some OFers that are close to ML ready. :clapping:
Regarding the velocity drop of Ubaldo....

The Indians had a left hander that could get the ball up into the upper 90's regularly.. had one helluva fastball..but, as he matured, he didn't stay with just the high velocity 98 mph cheese.. He developed a nice change to go with a mediocre slurve.. his fastball was sitting in the 92-94 mph range, unless, he reached back for a little extra.. which was always there..

yep.. Carsten Charles Sabathia.. he turned out okay.. no?
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Re: trades

Postby go_tribe » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:27 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:First time I've been on the boards in a few days since I'm still on vacation... so did anything happen before the trade deadline? :smile:

It hurts giving up the top two pitching prospects for Jimenez... I'm apprehensive, but I'm not going to slag the trade. I find it odd that a few people seem to be complaining about giving up Pomeranz in the deal. There's no way they were ever going to get Jimenez without dealing Pomeranz, so that's the price that had to be paid unless you just didn't want Jimenez at all. Now if there was a way to get it done without also including White (and without replacing him with Kipnis or Chisenhall) I would have been ecstatic, but I doubt that was going to happen. Due to fantasy baseball, I've been on the Ubaldo bandwagon since he was in AAA, so I'll have no problem rooting for him.

I wasn't even aware of the Orlando Cabrera for Thomas Neal trade until I logged on here, so this is like Christmas morning. Simply releasing Cabrera would have been a good transaction. Getting a legit prospect who fits an area of team need in return for that worthless carcass is highway robbery by the Tribe.


I for one am very happy the 2nd "big 4 prospect" ended up being White and not Chis or Kipnis. I agree with Tony's writeup that the finger is a huge concern, and with what we've gone through with Adam Miller, we could end dodging a huge bullet. Kipnis I think has the most star potential out of those 4, and even though we have other infield options in Donald and Phelps, neither of them are on the same level as Kip. Our infield is still set for the future and our rotation just got a HUGE boost, we're set up to win for at least 3 years.
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Re: trades

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:56 pm

GeronimoSon wrote: Regarding the velocity drop of Ubaldo....

The Indians had a left hander that could get the ball up into the upper 90's regularly.. had one helluva fastball..but, as he matured, he didn't stay with just the high velocity 98 mph cheese.. He developed a nice change to go with a mediocre slurve.. his fastball was sitting in the 92-94 mph range, unless, he reached back for a little extra.. which was always there..

yep.. Carsten Charles Sabathia.. he turned out okay.. no?


I get what you're saying, but if you look at CC's fastball velocity throughout his career, it's been pretty consistent and there wasn't a 3 MPH drop from one year to another.

Not saying Ubaldo's arm is about to fall off as there are many possible reasons for his decrease in velocity, but it certainly requires to some attention.
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Re: trades

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:57 pm

The Indians absolutely do not make this deal unless they are 100% confident Jimenez is not hurt or something is wrong. Of course you never know, but based on the physical, their scouting reports (they watched like his last 6 starts), what they have seen with their eyes, the available medical info, etc they believe it not to be a concern. I don't know what else you do if that is the case other than to trust the info you have.

On the flip side, I don't believe the Rockies know the full scope of what they are getting with White. The Indians had huge concerns with his finger. They won't say so publicly becuase it would diminish his trade value (which BTW they played beautifully in publicly talking about his rehab every step of the way and having him go on a rehab assignment on the eve of the deadline to show confidence in his health). Unlike the Indians with Ubaldo, the Rockies have NOTHING to go on other than his medical report from the injury. They havent scouted him since the injury, they dont know how the finger will react, etc. All they know is he is supposedly on the way back from a finger sprain.

White may ultimately be fine and pitch a long time and be very good, but I believe the Indians were happy to sell high on White in a trade chip to bring back a pretty good starter. Gardner is viewed now only as a possible 6th/7th innings relief option and no longer a starter, which diminished his value greatly. McBride is what he is. The big loss is Pomeranz....he's legit. Of course, he has 3 starts above the Single-A level and has three levels to pitch at and prove himself still. With the Indians in a window with guys liek Choo, Hafner, Asdrubal etc through 2013 they are trying to win now, so the Jimenez pickup is a gamble for sure but worth taking.
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Re: trades

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:21 pm

with the dust settling I am just relieved we get to move forward with all our (cept Abreu...) hitting prospects. Of course we might lose another another one or 2 but right now I am extremely happy that as of now all our hitters (whatever thats worth) are still here.
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Re: trades

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:15 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I thought this was a pretty even trade when I first heard about it. Now that I hear the PTBNL might be either Nick Castellanos or Chance Ruffin, it does not seem so even. Both Fister and Pauley should help the Tigers but the toll on an already weak organization seems to magnify the credo that Detroit is willing to expend whatever they must to compete. I know their revenues are far greater than the Indians but I still have to think that has a cost eventually. The Tigers are not the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies.


The PTBNL was in fact Chance Ruffin. Pretty steep price for the Tigers here and agree, big hit on a thin system. Then on top of this they spent the least on the draft? I know they had no 1st rounder....but the Pirates spent about 8 times what they just did. Deepest draft in a long time and they couldn't find anyone to take a chance on?! And they re-upped their GM...
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Re: trades

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:42 am

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I thought this was a pretty even trade when I first heard about it. Now that I hear the PTBNL might be either Nick Castellanos or Chance Ruffin, it does not seem so even. Both Fister and Pauley should help the Tigers but the toll on an already weak organization seems to magnify the credo that Detroit is willing to expend whatever they must to compete. I know their revenues are far greater than the Indians but I still have to think that has a cost eventually. The Tigers are not the Yankees, Red Sox or Phillies.


The PTBNL was in fact Chance Ruffin. Pretty steep price for the Tigers here and agree, big hit on a thin system. Then on top of this they spent the least on the draft? I know they had no 1st rounder....but the Pirates spent about 8 times what they just did. Deepest draft in a long time and they couldn't find anyone to take a chance on?! And they re-upped their GM...


+1. The Tigers are a house of cards. High priced veterans and a weak farm system are not the way to live long term. Verlander is due $20 million next year, so good luck with building that franchise.

Jhonny will return to normal next season. Plus if Verlander comes up with a sore arm - that's a middle of the pack club.
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Re: trades

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:53 am

When the PTBNL was rumored to be either Chance Ruffin or Nick Castellanos, I was hoping it would be Castellanos. This kid can really smoke a ball. He's not much of a fielder, kind of slow footed, but has a very good arm. By sending Chance Ruffin instead of Castellanos, the Tigers retain one of the better/projectable bats they have in their minor league system. Chance Ruffin has the pedigree, a small body/frame and not really much more than an interesting bullpen arm for the future. The M's hosed themselves if they chose Ruffin over Castellanos.. imho..
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Re: trades

Postby jellis » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:23 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:When the PTBNL was rumored to be either Chance Ruffin or Nick Castellanos, I was hoping it would be Castellanos. This kid can really smoke a ball. He's not much of a fielder, kind of slow footed, but has a very good arm. By sending Chance Ruffin instead of Castellanos, the Tigers retain one of the better/projectable bats they have in their minor league system. Chance Ruffin has the pedigree, a small body/frame and not really much more than an interesting bullpen arm for the future. The M's hosed themselves if they chose Ruffin over Castellanos.. imho..



I doubt they did can't see anyne making that choice, but upside is by every report I have read that Castellanos is a DH, doesnt have any position.


Side note how short sighted is Detroit anyone else see that already DFA the guy they got for Sizemore, they gave up a 2B who can hit for a guy they let go a month later. yikes
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Re: trades

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:37 pm

jellis wrote:I doubt they did can't see anyne making that choice, but upside is by every report I have read that Castellanos is a DH, doesnt have any position.


Side note how short sighted is Detroit anyone else see that already DFA the guy they got for Sizemore, they gave up a 2B who can hit for a guy they let go a month later. yikes


Agree, can't see the offensively challenged Mariners picking Ruffin over Castellanos even with his defensive limitations.

And I did see that the Tigers DFAed Purcey......makes it his second time being DFAed this year alone. I know Sizemore has come back down to earth but still can't believe they gave him up for Purcey....especially when you look at the Tigers current 2B/3B situation.

Personally am thrilled the Tigers re-upped Dombrowski.
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