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Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

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Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:25 am

Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17
Posted by Geronimo's Son » Thursday July 14th, 2011 11:25 pm

Entering the series...
Indians: 47-42, 2nd place in AL Central ½ GB the Tigers. 20-24 on the road, 5-5 in last 10.
Orioles: 36-52, 5th place in AL East, 18 GB the Red Sox. 22-22 at home, 1-9 in last 10.
The Indians lost their last series, 1-3 to the Toronto Blue Jays. The series featured a game one walk off grand slam homer by Travis Hafner. The Blue Jays, showed no sign of falling apart, reeling off three straight wins, including an 11-7 slug fest and beat down of an ineffective Mitch Talbot in game two, a one run 5-4 win with a 10th inning home run by Jose Bautista in game three and a series ending 7-1 beating of Carlos Carrasco, in his worst outing of the season. The All Star Break finds the Indians looking up in the standings at the five ALL STAR Laden Tigers team. The Orioles limped to the first half finish line, losing 9 of their last 10 games including a three game sweep by the Rangers and a four game sweep by the Red Sox. The Orioles were outscored in these back to back sweeps by a combined score of 24-62. Both series were on the road, where the Orioles are a dreadful 14-30.

Thursday, 7:05 ET
Justin Masterson, RHP (7-6, 2.64 ERA) vs. Jeremy Guthrie, RHP (3-12, 4.18 ERA)
Masterson will be making his 19th start of the 2011 season. He is 2-1 in his last four appearances with a microscopic 038 ERA. He is currently sixth in MLB in ERA. The Indians hold a 15-14 record against the AL East. Masterson's success this season has been mostly due to keeping the ball in the yard. The only current member of the Orioles who has gone yard on Masterson is Felix Pie. The old adage: "...very few ground balls go over the fence." continues to hold true. Like his diminutive starting pitching mate Josh Tomlin, Masterson has 38 consecutive starting appearances where he's gone at least five innings. Former first round Indians pick (22nd overall selection in 2002) Jeremy Guthrie is having a miserable season. He has lost six of his last seven decisions. His results belie the fact that he has pitched well in most of his outings, but, hasn't been able to pitch well enough to lead the Orioles to a W. Only the "Travis's (travi ?)" on the Indians have hit Guthrie well in seasons past. Since this is a contract year for Guthrie, he may be pressing in an attempt to be more than he is.

Friday, 7:05 ET
Josh Tomlin, RHP (10-4, 3.81 ERA) vs. Jake Arrieta, RHP (9-6, 4.90 ERA)
Tomlin's 'breakout season continues, unabated. His consecutive 5+ inning per start streak is now one for the record books. Tomlin followed up his worst outing against Toronto, 6 runs over six innings, by limiting the Jays to 3 runs over six innings. It's clear, he made the adjustments expected of a savvy veteran, not a near rookie making his 26th MLB start. Tomlin efficiency continues as he begrudgingly gives up walks at about the same rate a kosher butcher doles out pork sausage links. In 18 starts this year, Tomlin has surrendered 14 walks, thereby leading MLB in walks permitted per IP. Tomlin's pitch count per IP for starters remains at or near the top of MLB. In contrast to Guthrie, Jake Arrieta has a higher ERA, higher WHIP, more walks per K, yet has a 9-6 record. It might be when he has pitched as opposed to how he has pitched that has allowed Arrieta to compile his winning record. Arrieta has lost three of his last four decisions making his July ERA 8.68. There is nothing truly remarkable about Arrieta as a starting pitcher during his career. Let's hope the Indians keep his anonymity in good standing..

Saturday, 7:05 ET
Carlos Carrasco, RHP (8-6, 4.28 ERA) v Alfredo Simon, RHP (1-2, 4.85 ERA)
Carrasco, for the second consecutive July start, couldn't stop the Jays from scoring early and often. His worst outing of the year, his first start in July where he allowed 6 ER on 10 hits in 4 innings, was shorter and less artistic. Carrasco's wonderful June, 4-2 with an ERA of 1.90, needs to be turned around to start off the second half of his season. The biggest issue with Carrasco is falling in love with his slider. While he has a good one, it's not great, and he doesn't command it off the plate nor does he effectively leverage his always good fastball with his off speed pitches. Tim Belcher and a strong catcher (Marson) need to influence Carlos to rely more on his FB during his start against the Orioles to get him back on the right track. Alfredo Simon has been moved from the pen to the starting rotation for the Orioles. The results have been worse than bad. In each of Simon's last 7 appearances, the Orioles have lost the game. Simon is particularly bad with the bases empty and with 2 outs and runners in scoring position (BAA .412 and .358, respectively). Only a very limited number of current Indians have faced Simon in the past with Asdrubal Cabrera, Austin Kearns and Jack Hannahan having faced Simon once each, each getting one hit, w/ Hannahan and Kearns getting homers.

Sunday, 7:05 ET
JeanMar Gomez RHP (0-1, 4.91 ERA) vs.TBD Orioles (Chris Jakubauskas or Mitch Atkins)
JeanMar Gomez returns to the Indians starting rotation in place of ineffective and DL'd Mitch Talbot. Gomez has made four appearances for the Indians in 2011 with three starts. His first start against the Royals when they didn't realize they were the Royals resulted in a 5-4 loss. Subsequently, JeanMar has pitched as well as or better than any other starter not named Masterson for the Indians. His maturity and growth during his next three outings was clear to see. He relied more on a downward leveraged fastball and mixed his off speed pitches very well. The Orioles haven't seen much of JeanMar during his career, but what the current Orioles have seen, they liked. JeanMar's very limited 19 AB's against the Orioles resulted in 7 hits. This may be the Orioles best chance to get a W against the Indians.

NOTES:
• Cleveland has won four in a row and nine of 12 against the Orioles in recent meeting.
• All-Star SS Asdrubal Cabrera is batting .359 in his career against the Orioles but is 1 for 9 off Guthrie.
• Travis Hafner is a .365 career hitter versus Baltimore and went 6 for 9 with two homers and three RBIs in a three-game home sweep of the Orioles from April 15-17. He is 4 for 6 versus Guthrie.
• Justin Masterson allowed one run and four hits over seven innings to beat Baltimore 8-2 in Cleveland on April 15.
• Nick Markakis is, batting .391 (18 for 46) during a 10-game hitting streak at Camden Yards.
• Both Luke Scott (shoulder) and Brian Roberts (concussion symptoms) will not be available for the series against the Indians.
• Carlos Santana had two hits on Sunday against the Jays to raise his batting average to .230 for the season, 30 points lower than in his star-turn rookie campaign last season. The switch-hitting backstop has hit 13 home runs and delivered 41 RBIs, and he's reached base safely in 66 of his 84 games played this season.
• The Orioles are 11-19 in series openers and 12-18 in series finales this season.

The Indians went 3-0 in their previous series with the Orioles. This will be the last series between the two this season.
4/15 • W • 8-2. Win: Masterson. Loss: Britton.
4/16 • W • 8-3. Win: Tomlin. Loss: Guthrie.
4/17 • W • 4-2. Win: Carmona. Loss: Bergeson.

SCOREBOARD WATCH
CWSox at Tigers
7/15: Gavin Floyd (6-9, 4.95) vs. Justin Verlander (12-4, 2.15)
7/16: EdLose Jackson (5-7, 4.30) vs. Mad Max Scherzer (10-4, 4.69)
7/17: Jake Peavy (4-3, 5.27) vs. Brad Penny (6-6, 4.50)
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby smt1192 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:09 pm

I like the Tribe’s chances in this series. Winning 3 of 4 would be huge. Going to the game on Friday night and I’m very excited to see Josh Tomlin pitch. :s_thumbsup
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:54 pm

Tribe up 4-0 but leave the bases loaded with 1out in the 3rd...I asked this same question last series:

WHY THE HELL IS OCAB HITTING 6TH against a RHP???

I really like Acta overall but he has some stupid moments/patterns...this def qualifies

We better win this one despite wasting runs or this one is on Manny....as I write that...O's cut lead in half, 4-2...oh boy

OCab hitting 6th, so bad...he's a #8, #9 hitter at this point (not that he EVER was anything more, but at 36 he's obviously even worse than his meh career AVG)

If this org has any confidence in LaPorta/Chisenhall, those should be sitting at 6....hell, even out-waster Buck should be hitting over OCab against a RHP...seriously, if he can't be trusted over sub .600 OPS OCab against RHP why the hell is he still on this team?
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:02 pm

Tondo wrote:Tribe up 4-0 but leave the bases loaded with 1out in the 3rd...I asked this same question last series:

WHY THE HELL IS OCAB HITTING 6TH against a RHP???

I really like Acta overall but he has some stupid moments/patterns...this def qualifies

We better win this one despite wasting runs or this one is on Manny....as I write that...O's cut lead in half, 4-2...oh boy

OCab hitting 6th, so bad...he's a #8, #9 hitter at this point (not that he EVER was anything more, but at 36 he's obviously even worse than his meh career AVG)

If this org has any confidence in LaPorta/Chisenhall, those should be sitting at 6....hell, even out-waster Buck should be hitting over OCab against a RHP...seriously, if he can't be trusted over sub .600 OPS OCab against RHP why the hell is he still on this team?


Definitely bad at-bat by OC, but again, the 3 guys after him are 0 for 6. If we lose this game, it's not on Acta for hitting O-Cab 6th.

Personally not a fan of him 6th either, but do like that Acta is trying to keep some continuity with the lineup now that Hafner is back.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:41 pm

Okay.. O-cabby was able to break his hitless streak... good scoring opportunity as Grady was able to take third on the single...
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:59 pm

WHY THE HELL IS OCAB HITTING 6TH against a RHP???


Even though he is probably the worst hitting non-pitcher in MLB his defense is the most worrisome part. No range and he bobbles way more easy plays than he should
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:42 pm

This was an unartistic success for Masterson and the Indians.. The Birds got a few runs, but, they almost always do. In their last 28 games, they're 6-22..for a reason.. An eight run outbreak was nice to see from the Indians hitters tonight. Special kudos to Carlos Santana.. homer to right.. double to left..which way is he going to hit the next one?..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:53 am

The Indians have found a team that strikes out more frequently than they do.. Holy Cow.. 13 K's for the O's 27 outs..

Some awards for the game last evening:
-Best at bat of the evening.. Carlos Santana's opposite field RBI double..
-Worst at bat of the evening... Orlando Cabrera's inning ending DP grounder to Hardy..
-Best Pitcher in a relief role.. Tony Sipp with three K's..honorable mention: both West & Pestano

Back in first place.... ah, where the Wahoos Wigwam should be...(even if it's by percentage points)...
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:27 pm

OCab again hitting 6th against a RHP...and surprise...again not getting the job done moving the runner over to 3rd with no out

and yes, he's tilting me hard
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:33 pm

I feel like every time Lonnie is up to bat there are 2 outs. Kinda a crappy situation to come up every time with your back up against the wall.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:01 pm

As long as Jack Buck is in the lineup.. expect at least one more out than when his at bat started..

Ocabby with the liner to short left center.. nice grab by Adam Jones & good hustle by Pronk to get back to the base.

Ocabby's previous AB.. why wasn't he bunting? Come on.. let him swing at the first pitch then move the damn runner..

The Indians are giving Markakis too much respect for his arm.. they have to force the issue..

Looks like Tomlin is settling in now.. should be a 'normal' start for him..he does seem to be getting just a weeee bit more velo on his FB.. up to 91/92 already..ooops.. spoke too soon.. the O's have come back strong.. looks like this one could go back and forth all night.. should remain entertaining...

Verlander is getting hammered by the CWSox 4-0..boo hooo...
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Asdrubal is money this season...nice opposite field shot

On the negative side...Buck is pretty useless really...what an awful AB again, swinging at ball 3 in the dirt with 2-1 count and then missing a BP ball by arrieta, who grooved one up the middle just before the K on a breaking bal low/in the dirt of course...and he's a platoon bat against RHP...so bad...still can't believe it's mid June and we still have the crap trifecta of Kearns, Duncan and Buck on the roster with Zeke filling the stat sheet in AAA

Meanwhile, Santana still looks scared on plate contact at catcher...I understand him, but it's worrisome
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby jellis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:10 pm

tomlin is now tied for 2nd in the AL in HRS allowed, I still feel he is all smoke and mirrors BOR starter and we have seen a pretty strong shift in his era over the past month
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:36 pm

He's not...I don't know any BOR who is

a) in the top 10 in SP Whip

and

b) delivering QS after QS...14 out of 18...give me a BOR with that ratio, good luck. He even still has a shot at a QS in this game

and

c) has pitched at least 5 Innings in every start and 6+ in 17of18

But yeah, he's a BOR :wacko:

Get over it...you undervalued and appreciated him. You're just angry you never had him in your Top 20 upside list :s_tongue

GRADY !!! 5-3 Tribe
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby jellis » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:59 pm

Tondo wrote:He's not...I don't know any BOR who is

a) in the top 10 in SP Whip

and

b) delivering QS after QS...14 out of 18...give me a BOR with that ratio, good luck. He even still has a shot at a QS in this game

and

c) has pitched at least 5 Innings in every start and 6+ in 17of18

But yeah, he's a BOR :wacko:

Get over it...you undervalued and appreciated him. You're just angry you never had him in your Top 20 upside list :s_tongue

GRADY !!! 5-3 Tribe


another HR, he is evening out majorly. 5 innings is nice but its not great and he rarely goes beyond 5 or 6 which is more important. I have had him as a top 20 guy before, might want to check lists before making that statement he was always in my top 20 cept one year after he reached AA. People want to act like he is a lot better then he is, solid guy but lets face it hes a 4/5.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:09 pm

He's not...see my 3 arguments...give me a BOR who brings that and you might have a point but theres none, so he is not a BOR...easy as that...in fact you won't find many MOR's who check in those 3
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:19 pm

Back of rotation, front of rotation, middle of rotation, front of middle of back of rotation. Who cares?

Either way, he's in the rotation. Tomlin if a BOR starter is one of the better in the league. He's probably the starter we least have to lose sleep over aside from Masterson.

Ideally, Tomlin is a BOR starter because the front of our rotation in the future is strong with Masterson, White, and Pomeranz.

People will bicker over anything, I swear.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:05 pm

Tolmin is solid. He is a solid 4-5 on any team. He doesn't have much of an out pitch but plays so well he is successful. He is a wonderful surprise and for me thats good enough. I am glad he has excelled and expect him to have an ok second half, but come on.. His stuff just isn't top notch enough to keep him from getting in trouble from time to time. Eat innings and limit the damage, he seems pretty awesome at that and that is what you want (at the least) out of yr 4th-5th starter....If the wheels fall off, well they fall off and luckily for us we have a lot of pitching depth....
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:58 am

entertheshoe wrote:Back of rotation, front of rotation, middle of rotation, front of middle of back of rotation. Who cares?

Either way, he's in the rotation. Tomlin if a BOR starter is one of the better in the league. He's probably the starter we least have to lose sleep over aside from Masterson.

Ideally, Tomlin is a BOR starter because the front of our rotation in the future is strong with Masterson, White, and Pomeranz.

People will bicker over anything, I swear.
We will not !! :shok:
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:08 am

Tondo wrote:Asdrubal is money this season...nice opposite field shot

On the negative side...Buck is pretty useless really...what an awful AB again, swinging at ball 3 in the dirt with 2-1 count and then missing a BP ball by arrieta, who grooved one up the middle just before the K on a breaking bal low/in the dirt of course...and he's a platoon bat against RHP...so bad...still can't believe it's mid June and we still have the crap trifecta of Kearns, Duncan and Buck on the roster with Zeke filling the stat sheet in AAA

Meanwhile, Santana still looks scared on plate contact at catcher...I understand him, but it's worrisome
If you are referring to the play where Asdrubal received the relay throw from Brantley and fired the ball to Santana, then you are mistaken.. When you watch the play, the ball that Asdrubal threw was right along the path of the Baltimore runner.. by throwing at that angle (not easy to see from the side, the camera angle being what it was) Carlos' vision was blocked by the runner. It was a tougher catch than what it appeared. Carlos didn't even get a glove on the ball. A more instinctive catcher might have had a better chance at catching the ball, but Carlos didn't miss the catch and tag out of fear, imho..

BTW...Zeke isn't at AAA.. he's on the ML Roster and filled in defensively for Buck last night. Look for him to get the starting assignment tonight when the Indians face converted reliever RHP Alfredo Simon. Hannahan did the same for Chisenhall last night as well.. neither Zeke or Hoover-hanny got an at bat..

Other notes/observations:

-Nice swings by Grady this evening.. He was clearly focused on hitting the ball into the middle of the diamond tonight. He seems like his 'batter's eye' is coming around.

-Michael Brantley is one cooooooool customer.. He gives the impression that the game has really slowed down for him. He was on top of each and every at bat..his play in Left Field seems effortless. Nice to see him maturing before our eyes..

-Lonnie also had a very good at bat, driving in LaPorta. His short to the ball / on plane swing and line drive looked like Rod Carew in his hey day.. He doesn't show any ill effects from his beaning..

-The Bullpen Mafia: Ho hum..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:22 am

Interesting comments by Tomlin after the game:

".. the bullpen came up huge for me... A lot of pitches.. I didn't know where they were going when they left my hand. It was a scary feeling.. "

Kind of sums up a "bad" outing for him. Tomlin keeps his team in the game to the middle / late part of the game. Takes the ball every fifth day.. and battles.. Sort of like Paul Byrd during the 2007 season.. Tomlin doesn't project as a MOR or BOR.. When you look at the way he pitches, you'd be inclined to say, AAAA pitcher, at best.. and on a bad team. Ahh.. but therein lies the rub. On the surface, he's a AAAA pitcher.. but this little yappy terrier type has more fight than it appears. As the Indians continue this rebuild to being a competitive team.. Tomlin's place will be at the back of the rotation... and that's good enough..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:55 am

Amazing. Tomlin is our best "pitcher". He moves the ball in and out, changes speeds, throws strikes. In every one of his MLB starts he has made it past the 5th inning. Quite frankly, if the truth were known, many of our other starting pitchers have improved by watching Tomlin "pitch". Many posters here are in love with the "power arm" BS. Thank goodness for Manny Acta and Tim Belcher. They were all over Tomlin, while 90% of the people here were hyping Jensen Lewis and others. Lesson learned.

Ditto Frank Herrmann who was also off most radars.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:31 am

Manny had a chance to re-set the rotation after the AS break and he put Tomlin in the #2 spot behind Masterson, who has taken over from Carmona as the "ace". End of argument until White and Pomeranz arrive.

Santana has been avoiding contact on plays at the plate all year. I've noticed it at least twice before last night. I think he took his eye off the ball to sneak a look at the runner bearing down on him. The throw was good and the ball hit his glove and skipped off, which tells me he was looking at the runner. His main concern is protecting his knee, and I don't blame him. That collision last year could have been a career ender.

Manny had some really nice comments about Santana in the PD today. Said he's the most productive .230 hitter he's ever seen and that Carlos should hit close to .300 once he learns to use the whole field and not overswing with two strikes. I guess we can live with his scattergun throws to second and his matador act at home plate.

Chisenhall suffered a concussion sliding into a base in Columbus last month. Last night he was definitley going out of his way NOT to slide and the announcers were all over it. Finally he slid into second on his double. I think Manny told him he better slide if he gets on base again. I think he's trying to avoid banging his head on the ground again, especially with the busted cheekbone.

Buck was horrible on a night when the rest of the lineup banged out 12 hits. Four at-bats and he couldn't get one ball even to the pitchers mound against right-handed pitching. That was as bad a hitting performance as I've seen in a while.

Another lights-out performance by the bullpen. No way Tomlin has anything close to 11 wins without the Mafia.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:07 am

ironmike wrote:Amazing. Tomlin is our best "pitcher". He moves the ball in and out, changes speeds, throws strikes. In every one of his MLB starts he has made it past the 5th inning. Quite frankly, if the truth were known, many of our other starting pitchers have improved by watching Tomlin "pitch". Many posters here are in love with the "power arm" BS. Thank goodness for Manny Acta and Tim Belcher. They were all over Tomlin, while 90% of the people here were hyping Jensen Lewis and others. Lesson learned.

Ditto Frank Herrmann who was also off most radars.


I know this is the story you'd like to push, but I don't recall a single person rooting against Tomlin. Everybody was really happy to see him get promoted last year and were really happy to see him make the team in spring training. I know you mentioned before that you thought Shapiro/Antonetti didn't believe in him, but they CLEARLY did, since they cleared a 40 man roster spot for him last year when they had other options at AAA (like Huff).

Some of us have reservations, because he's the kind of pitcher that doesn't project well so you're always wondering if/when the wheels will fall off. That's pretty much a hallmark of being a Cleveland sports fan.

And precisely nobody was hyping Jensen Lewis. That comment doesn't even make sense in that paragraph, as Jensen Lewis is FAR from a power arm.

Also, Herrman isn't bad, and he's certainly an upgrade over Germano. He was also a guy that everybody on this board was happy to see promoted last year, as he clearly earned it with his performance. However, he's not much more than a middle reliever, which is fine. Teams need those too. I just... well... I don't understand what your point is on these two. Just because they weren't top 5 prospects, they were underrated?
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:51 am

Edible14 wrote:
ironmike wrote:Amazing. Tomlin is our best "pitcher". He moves the ball in and out, changes speeds, throws strikes. In every one of his MLB starts he has made it past the 5th inning. Quite frankly, if the truth were known, many of our other starting pitchers have improved by watching Tomlin "pitch". Many posters here are in love with the "power arm" BS. Thank goodness for Manny Acta and Tim Belcher. They were all over Tomlin, while 90% of the people here were hyping Jensen Lewis and others. Lesson learned.

Ditto Frank Herrmann who was also off most radars.


I know this is the story you'd like to push, but I don't recall a single person rooting against Tomlin. Everybody was really happy to see him get promoted last year and were really happy to see him make the team in spring training. I know you mentioned before that you thought Shapiro/Antonetti didn't believe in him, but they CLEARLY did, since they cleared a 40 man roster spot for him last year when they had other options at AAA (like Huff).

Some of us have reservations, because he's the kind of pitcher that doesn't project well so you're always wondering if/when the wheels will fall off. That's pretty much a hallmark of being a Cleveland sports fan.

And precisely nobody was hyping Jensen Lewis. That comment doesn't even make sense in that paragraph, as Jensen Lewis is FAR from a power arm.

Also, Herrman isn't bad, and he's certainly an upgrade over Germano. He was also a guy that everybody on this board was happy to see promoted last year, as he clearly earned it with his performance. However, he's not much more than a middle reliever, which is fine. Teams need those too. I just... well... I don't understand what your point is on these two. Just because they weren't top 5 prospects, they were underrated?

I am not sure what iron is talking about. It sounds like his usual axe to grind against indians management. The whole site loves Tomlin and the front office progressed him steadily throughout the minors and moved him ahead of Talbot in the rotational pecking order before the season started with only a few games late last year. I agree with ed that there is cause for concern long term. Anybody who watches the games or can the stats knows that Tomlin has been less effective as the season progresses and teams have gotten more looks at him. ML players adjust. Teams are adjusting to Tomlin and he will have to adjust in return. He has done that throughout his professional career and there is no reason to believe he will not adapt to the new strategies used against him.

Herrmann is not the same pitcher he was at the start of the season. He has developed a passable second pitch after years of failure in that regard. He is a grinder who will never be much more. I don't look for him to be in our back end or ever have much trade value but he has done his job. But the system is full of prospects that can fill the back end role better than Herrmann. But Herrmann has a niche and has value to the Indians in that area. Iron just wants a return to yesteryear. One of those guys who lives in the past. "Used to have season tickets". Bet it was when there was no football and basketball sucked. However, my Indians are in first place this year and, even though I live in San Diego, I am quite certain I have seen the Indians play live more times this year than iron has. Clearly, iron is comfortable living in the past and has a highly fantacized view of the past. It is not uncommon for this to happen to senior citizens (I am one). It is affectionately referred to as our drool years. :pleasantry:
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:21 pm

Couple quick points:

1. Santana's vision was definitely blocked by the runner but that's his fault. It's not like he should be surprised that there's a runner coming towards home base, he needs to go out of his way to make sure he has vision of Asdrubal making the throw.

2. Great game from Chisenhall and it was even better than 2 for 4. He got robbed of a nice hit up the middle too when it grazed off the pitcher's glove so he's a lucky split second reaction from going 3 for 4. Beautiful swing on that kid.

3. Going against a weak righty I'd like to see Valbuena and Zeke get a start tonight. Neither got a start against consecutive righties Friday/Saturday and Buck has been playing pretty poorly. I hope they didn't just give up on Valbuena after a poor start, I still think he's good for 1-2 starts a week versus righties.

Brantley, ACab, Hafner, Santana, Sizemore, LaPorta, Chisenhall, Valbuena, Zeke! Lefties are eating Simon up this year (354/418/625) that lineup should be able to knock him around a bit and play some nice smallball.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:14 pm

Also, Geronimo, Sunday's game starts at 1:35, not 7!
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:11 pm

ironmike wrote:Amazing. Tomlin is our best "pitcher". He moves the ball in and out, changes speeds, throws strikes. In every one of his MLB starts he has made it past the 5th inning. Quite frankly, if the truth were known, many of our other starting pitchers have improved by watching Tomlin "pitch". Many posters here are in love with the "power arm" BS. Thank goodness for Manny Acta and Tim Belcher. They were all over Tomlin, while 90% of the people here were hyping Jensen Lewis and others. Lesson learned.

Ditto Frank Herrmann who was also off most radars.


FYI, but both Herrmann and Tomlin are overachieving (good for us). Every team in baseball had a chance to add them to their rosters for $50K about 18 months ago but passed on them in the Rule 5 Draft. Lesson learned for them really.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:09 pm

Saturday's lineup is a head-scratcher. Chiz hitting 5th while Carrera is in CF hitting 9th and no Grady. :dunno:
I thought with the success he had been having Grady was a natural to stay hitting 5th for a while.

Kinda figured Marson would be catching today. Santana can't catch everyday and Marson seems to have a good rapport with Carlos C.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:30 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Saturday's lineup is a head-scratcher.


...and OCab still hitting 6th against a RHP...nice 1 pitch AB after Santana and Chisenhall had short ABs...now that's a veteran approach :wacko:
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:07 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Also, Geronimo, Sunday's game starts at 1:35, not 7!


Thank you for pointing that out.. I just don't know if I can live with myself without this correction.. I imagine thousands of IPI readers and posters are forever grateful for your stunning observation...

bless you..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:12 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Couple quick points:

1. Santana's vision was definitely blocked by the runner but that's his fault. It's not like he should be surprised that there's a runner coming towards home base, he needs to go out of his way to make sure he has vision of Asdrubal making the throw.

2. Great game from Chisenhall and it was even better than 2 for 4. He got robbed of a nice hit up the middle too when it grazed off the pitcher's glove so he's a lucky split second reaction from going 3 for 4. Beautiful swing on that kid.

3. Going against a weak righty I'd like to see Valbuena and Zeke get a start tonight. Neither got a start against consecutive righties Friday/Saturday and Buck has been playing pretty poorly. I hope they didn't just give up on Valbuena after a poor start, I still think he's good for 1-2 starts a week versus righties.

Brantley, ACab, Hafner, Santana, Sizemore, LaPorta, Chisenhall, Valbuena, Zeke! Lefties are eating Simon up this year (354/418/625) that lineup should be able to knock him around a bit and play some nice smallball.


+1.. As stated.. a more instinctual catcher would have known to make himself a better target too..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby ironmike » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:24 pm

Hey Tony, I don't read stats or use radar guns or listen to hype being leaked by the organization. I make my accessment on players when observing them myself.

It was clearly evident watching Asdrubal Cabrera in a 2 game series in Erie he was in Doubel A Carbarera was far superior to Peralta evne at that level as an all-around player. Yet our brain trust of Shapiro and Wedge insisted he move to another position. That is just one example.

Tony, did you ever consider both of the those pitchers were valued more by the coaching staff than the GM? Belcher was an advisor at the time. Shapiro was noted for not listening to Mike Hargrove when he was an advisor. Hargrove told Shapiro to put Peralta at 3B and Phillips at SS and leave them there for ten years. That move or lack of it skewed the Indians middle infield situation for at least 5 years.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:39 pm

ironmike wrote:Hey Tony, I don't read stats or use radar guns or listen to hype being leaked by the organization. I make my determination on players when observing them myself.

It was clearly evident watching Asdrubal Cabrera in a 2 game series in Erie he was far superior to Peralta as an all-around player. Yet our brain trust of Shapiro and Wedge insisted he move to another position. That is just one example.



cause he was a below average SS at the time I believe was the reason why, he is above average to me, but still at the time he came up Perralta was hitting and actually a better defender
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:25 pm

ironmike wrote:Hey Tony, I don't read stats or use radar guns or listen to hype being leaked by the organization. I make my accessment on players when observing them myself.

It was clearly evident watching Asdrubal Cabrera in a 2 game series in Erie he was in Doubel A Carbarera was far superior to Peralta evne at that level as an all-around player. Yet our brain trust of Shapiro and Wedge insisted he move to another position. That is just one example.

Tony, did you ever consider both of the those pitchers were valued more by the coaching staff than the GM? Belcher was an advisor at the time. Shapiro was noted for not listening to Mike Hargrove when he was an advisor. Hargrove told Shapiro to put Peralta at 3B and Phillips at SS and leave them there for ten years. That move or lack of it skewed the Indians middle infield situation for at least 5 years.


There's really only one reason Peralta didn't move to third sooner- Jhonny Peralta. He complained endlessly about the move, and when people were calling for it, he kept insisting that shortstop was HIS position. When he was moved, he sulked and had one of his worst seasons offensively. At the time, I think Wedge was thinking that Peralta was one of their best hitters and it would be best not to move him if it would make him unhappy. To an extent, he was probably proven right.

In any case, I'd like to see where you picked up the assumption that Shapiro was the one calling for him to stay at SS. It seems to me that you just default to blaming every poor roster management move on Shapiro/Antonetti while giving the credit for all good moves to the coaching staff. Meanwhile, there are plenty of bad moves that we could justifiably pin on Acta (Keeping Kearns, Playing OCab before Phelps and hitting him 6th), but instead you're focusing on a questionable move from 3 years ago.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:46 pm

UGH!

I knew as soon as Showalter made that call to the bullpen that the game was over. Grady CANNOT hit lefties to save his life this year (.167 BA, .577 OPS). Acta needs to sub him out in that situation. Shelley Duncan, lefty killer and pinch-hit extraordinaire, is ON THE BENCH. USE HIM!

Damn you Buck Showalter and your effective managerial skills.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:49 pm

Yeah, don't get why Duncan doesn't hit for Grady...
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:59 pm

It's too easy to second-guess Acta for not pinch hitting Grady in that situation so I won't do it. Those same people should be wondering why Orlando Cabrera wasn't pinch hit versus a righty with his .231 BA and .533 OPS.

Way too easy to make these calls in hindsight.

Speaking of Orlando Cabrera, GOOD THING HE WAS IN THE 6th SPOT RIGHT TONDO?

:bomb:
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:08 pm

...Hey Tony, I don't read stats or use radar guns or listen to hype being leaked by the organization. I make my accessment on players when observing them myself....
While I don't discount your observational capability, there is the matter of history.. i.e... providing "after the fact" pronouncements..

HOW CAN YOU LET THAT PASS BY?... That would mean what?

So..in an effort to provide a means to an end.. here's your chance to show everyone just exactly what your observational ability is..

Who in the minors is a star.. stud.. next great thing..

By no response or an inadequate response.. you'll prove everyone else correct about you being nothing more than an anti- Shapiro/Antonetti complainer..

The stage is yours.. let's hear it...... :s_dunno

BTW.. In the recently completed draft.. and in the draft thread.. the choices for "sleepers" that I see as potential break out guys included:

Cole Pitts (unsigned as of this writing)
Bryson Miles (In MV.. doing well)
Evan Frazar (In MV.. for a week as of this writing)

I will watch these three closely during their stay with the Indians organization...
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:13 pm

After giving back the lead on the Markakis homer.. Carlos Carrasco showed something that was truly amazing.. He started to pitch..pitch like he should.. when he was missing on his pitches.. he was missing further away from the middle of the plate.. he allowed a walk.. on a pitch he was shooting for the inside half of the plate to Weiters.. but he missed it further inside.. The next batter, Lee.. same drill... but he got him out and "PITCHED" like he can to finish the inning.. it was a beautiful thing to see.. even though it was in a loss. This L could be a real corner turner for this young 24 year old... Anyone else see the same thing?..Your comments would be appreciated.. thanks, G'Son
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:15 pm

entertheshoe wrote:It's too easy to second-guess Acta for not pinch hitting Grady in that situation so I won't do it. Those same people should be wondering why Orlando Cabrera wasn't pinch hit versus a righty with his .231 BA and .533 OPS.

Way too easy to make these calls in hindsight.

Speaking of Orlando Cabrera, GOOD THING HE WAS IN THE 6th SPOT RIGHT TONDO?

:bomb:

I hate O-Cabby in the 6th spot.. I hate it.. I hate it.. I HATE IT.. but, your are right.. good thing he was there... BTW.. he's there because Matt Laporta hasn't proven he can consistently give good at bats.. when he does.. Ocabby will be moved further down in the order.. imho..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:02 pm

Well, the bullpen finally cost us a game giving up those three runs in the 8th. It looked like Raffy didn't want to be there and Herrmann failed to pick him up. What a shame - OCab hits a double off a right-handed pitcher once in a blue moon, and he pulled it off with the bases loaded. Those are probably the only 3 RBIs he'll get this month and we wasted them. Oh well, I didn't expect to go undefeated against the Birds this year. And the Tigers lost, so we're still in first.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:55 am

One lousy job of managing a team! Perez is not a late inning option but bringing on a garbage time pitcher like Herrmann afterward with a rested staff is priceless stupidity. Then he lets Sizemore, who hasn't hit LHP all year hit instead of Duncan. Well, the bottom end of the RP failed and Acta let OCab's hit go to his head. Carrasco should kick his stupid ass around Baltimore for a while to make sure Acta understands his role. :aggressive:
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:32 am

jellis, you're way off on your accessement of Cabrera. At no time has Peralta ever been a or will be a better a defender or player than Asdrubal.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:34 am

Edible14 no manager would ever worry about a players feelings at the expense of what is best for the team and winning games unless of course it was Eric Wedge.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:15 am

indianinkslinger wrote:One lousy job of managing a team! Perez is not a late inning option but bringing on a garbage time pitcher like Herrmann afterward with a rested staff is priceless stupidity. Then he lets Sizemore, who hasn't hit LHP all year hit instead of Duncan. Well, the bottom end of the RP failed and Acta let OCab's hit go to his head. Carrasco should kick his stupid ass around Baltimore for a while to make sure Acta understands his role. :aggressive:


If Acta pinch hit Duncan for Sizemore, don't you think the O's would have brought in a right-handed reliever?

Sizemore is swinging the bat very well lately and had a huge game yesterday. He hit the ball hard last night, unfortunately it was right at the first baseman. I think Acta would rather have a red-hot Sizemore (7-for-17 in July) facing a lefty than Duncan, who hasn't played in a while, facing a righty. His average against righties is abysmal, if I'm not mistaken.

Bringing in Herrmann was a little questionable but he's been pitching well lately and the Tribe was down 4-2 in the 8th, so their chances were not good. Herrmann and Durbin are the guys they use when they're behind, saving the better relievers for when they need to protect a lead, like the four scoreless innings they got last night with a one-run lead. I don't have a problem with Herrmann there. Too bad he didn't use Sipp instead of Perez, though, but usually Raffie is money.

The biggest mistake IMO was Carrasco grooving an 0-2 pitch to Markakis with the score tied. When you're 0-2 on the hitter you try and hit a corner or make the hitter chase, or throw a pitch to set up your out pitch. You don't throw a changeup right down the middle on an 0-2 count to the hottest hitter in baseball.

That damn Oriole first baseman saved them about three runs with his glove on a couple of hard hit smashes, including one by Zeke Carrerra. I want to see more of this kid, although he probably gets sent back down tomorrow.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:02 am

Prosecutor wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:One lousy job of managing a team! Perez is not a late inning option but bringing on a garbage time pitcher like Herrmann afterward with a rested staff is priceless stupidity. Then he lets Sizemore, who hasn't hit LHP all year hit instead of Duncan. Well, the bottom end of the RP failed and Acta let OCab's hit go to his head. Carrasco should kick his stupid ass around Baltimore for a while to make sure Acta understands his role. :aggressive:


If Acta pinch hit Duncan for Sizemore, don't you think the O's would have brought in a right-handed reliever?

Sizemore is swinging the bat very well lately and had a huge game yesterday. He hit the ball hard last night, unfortunately it was right at the first baseman. I think Acta would rather have a red-hot Sizemore (7-for-17 in July) facing a lefty than Duncan, who hasn't played in a while, facing a righty. His average against righties is abysmal, if I'm not mistaken.

Bringing in Herrmann was a little questionable but he's been pitching well lately and the Tribe was down 4-2 in the 8th, so their chances were not good. Herrmann and Durbin are the guys they use when they're behind, saving the better relievers for when they need to protect a lead, like the four scoreless innings they got last night with a one-run lead. I don't have a problem with Herrmann there. Too bad he didn't use Sipp instead of Perez, though, but usually Raffie is money.

The biggest mistake IMO was Carrasco grooving an 0-2 pitch to Markakis with the score tied. When you're 0-2 on the hitter you try and hit a corner or make the hitter chase, or throw a pitch to set up your out pitch. You don't throw a changeup right down the middle on an 0-2 count to the hottest hitter in baseball.

That damn Oriole first baseman saved them about three runs with his glove on a couple of hard hit smashes, including one by Zeke Carrerra. I want to see more of this kid, although he probably gets sent back down tomorrow.
Without much more than a hunch to go on.. it could be Zeke staying and Buck being sent down.. Buck has had a few, very few, "moments" for the Wahoos.. but way too infrequently. Zeke, on the other hand has shown an ability to put the bat on the ball, hit it hard, can bunt, play superior defense, pinch run, etc.. In other words, Zeke can be a factor in several ways while Buck is pretty much 1/2 dimensional..
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:03 am

ironmike wrote:Edible14 no manager would ever worry about a players feelings at the expense of what is best for the team and winning games unless of course it was Eric Wedge.


False.

A large portion of a managers job is to "manage the egos" of all if his players. People complain all the time about managers "not getting the most" out of players, and if you're taking action to cause your players to sulk and play poorly... you're not getting the most out of that player.

Prosecutor wrote:If Acta pinch hit Duncan for Sizemore, don't you think the O's would have brought in a right-handed reliever?


I'm not sure they could have, as I don't know that you can actually pull a guy after zero pitches. Furthermore, I'm not sure they had anybody warmed up. Even if they could, I'd still take that. I'll take Duncan's .233 vs RHP over Grady's .167 against lefties.

entertheshoe wrote:It's too easy to second-guess Acta for not pinch hitting Grady in that situation so I won't do it. Those same people should be wondering why Orlando Cabrera wasn't pinch hit versus a righty with his .231 BA and .533 OPS.


I was wondering that. And if he k'd (as he was so close to doing), I would be making the same complaint. Though I guess the alternative there is Luis Valbuena as a pinch-hitter, which is certainly less of a slam-dunk than pinch-hitter and lefty killer extraordinaire Shelley Duncan. Seriously, though, the only reason Shelley Duncan is on the team is to take those kind of at-bats. Why have him if you're just going to let Grady meekly ground out to end the game.
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:04 am

ironmike wrote:jellis, you're way off on your accessement of Cabrera. At no time has Peralta ever been a or will be a better a defender or player than Asdrubal.
Still waiting for your call on a future stud / star player.. perhaps you're doing "research" and it will be forthcoming sometime.. :s_dunno
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Re: Indians at Orioles, July 14, 15, 16 & 17

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:30 am

Prosecutor wrote:If Acta pinch hit Duncan for Sizemore, don't you think the O's would have brought in a right-handed reliever?


Your missing a key point. Once a pitcher is brought into the game, he must face a hitter. A hitter can be announced and then removed before facing someone. Hence, using Duncan vs a lefty was very possible.

While I agree Sizemore was hitting well recently and Duncan is overall a better matchup to face a lefty, Acta might have figured, Duncan would have been walked (1st was open) in order to face the next batter.
The idea of leaving Sizemore in and having Duncan PH for Marson does have some appeal.
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