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Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Talk about the Cleveland Indians, Major League Baseball, and other sports.

Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:05 pm

entertheshoe wrote:The simple fact that you're getting on Asdrubal on that ball that was clearly a hit shows that you have quite a bit of antibias. It wasn't a groundball like Roger Dorn, it was a rocket probably 105+ mph that bounced right in front of him. It was either charge it and catch it in the air or try for a web-gem like dig. There's no way you can think that was an error that makes about as much sense as giving Jose Bautista an error if he didn't throw out LaPorta in time.


Um, he definitely Roger Dorned it. The ball was hit right at him...then he side stepped and missed it. You are again making my point. yes, if he would have gotten that ESPN probably puts it on their 'web gems'....but that's because he made the play WAY harder than it needed to be.

Sorry, that play was nothing like Buatista's, who ranged way to his right. Cabrera literally didn't have to move (but he did to get out of the way). Wouldn't call it 'routine' but it was a play the average ML SS should make.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:18 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:You aren't going to change Hermie's opinion! He may not always be right but he is NEVER wrong and will post until the cows come home to prove it. He is a "hater" to quote his phrase and he hates AsCab and Brantley. And he will work to the death to find some off the wall, inconsequential statistic to support his position. Just like iron, it is better to ignore the prejudice. I know I do except when I want to amuse myself by setting off one of his tirades. Apologies to the show for being a hypocrit. :pleasantry:


Oh I am wrong a lot (though not nearly as much as you). I love Asdrubal actually. But unlike you, I can like a player but still recognize where he needs to improve and is lackluster. Hell, I'd love to see the Tribe sign AC long-term.

I am also a big fan of Brantley (and was a fan of getting him over Taylor). Again though, when a guy struggles, I'll call him out on. Unlike you, I can figure this out. Also never realized on-base percentage was some "inconsequential statistic". That's a new one. :rolleyes: I mean, it's only the #1 thing for a leadoff hitter, but pst who cares about that (not ink obviously).

Then again, this is the guy that thought Hannahan's defense was poor in spring training so not truly surprised by your completely asinine comments day in and day out, especially regarding any player's defensive ability.



Think it's funny too. I call out Cabrera's defense prior to last season....get reamed. Then after the season Antonetti, Acta, and Shapiro do it as well. But hey, I'm 'wrong' :rolleyes: Kind of like when I said Brantley wan't ready before 2010 (and then they signed Branyan) or when I said we needed to move Donald to 3B (and we did). Crazy how 'wrong' i was about those as well :s_tongue

Again, AC has improved a lot from last year (and the year before). He came into camp looking in much better shape, which has helped. But he still has a ways to go before he's this elite defensive SS that some think he is (if he'll ever get there).
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:34 pm

...Think it's funny too. I call out Cabrera's defense prior to last season....get reamed. Then after the season Antonetti, Acta, and Shapiro do it as well. But hey, I'm 'wrong'

Again, AC has improved a lot from last year (and the year before). He came into camp looking in much better shape, which has helped. But he still has a ways to go before he's this elite defensive SS that some think he is (if he'll ever get there)....
You called out Fangraphs UZR+ as validation, which for lack of a better way of putting it, is about two steps lower than Webgems as an indication of a players defensive ability.. Sure, Droobs came to camp in good shape, that's his job..as is his job to make the plays at SS.. Last night.. the bullet to his left that was.. as you described, "roger dorn'd".. wasn't a bad play..that's a do or die play.. if the ball hits the glove.. you look great.. if it doesn't.. you are roger dorning it.. smh..

Sorry you don't see what everyone else does.. Droobs is the standard bearer for defensive wizardry and high quality defensive play at SS in the AL.. none better.. So, continue to call out Droobs' defensive mediocrity.. and you'll keep getting told that you don't know what you're talking about.. it is what it is.... :drinks:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:57 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
...Think it's funny too. I call out Cabrera's defense prior to last season....get reamed. Then after the season Antonetti, Acta, and Shapiro do it as well. But hey, I'm 'wrong'

Again, AC has improved a lot from last year (and the year before). He came into camp looking in much better shape, which has helped. But he still has a ways to go before he's this elite defensive SS that some think he is (if he'll ever get there)....
You called out Fangraphs UZR+ as validation, which for lack of a better way of putting it, is about two steps lower than Webgems as an indication of a players defensive ability.. Sure, Droobs came to camp in good shape, that's his job..as is his job to make the plays at SS.. Last night.. the bullet to his left that was.. as you described, "roger dorn'd".. wasn't a bad play..that's a do or die play.. if the ball hits the glove.. you look great.. if it doesn't.. you are roger dorning it.. smh..

Sorry you don't see what everyone else does.. Droobs is the standard bearer for defensive wizardry and high quality defensive play at SS in the AL.. none better.. So, continue to call out Droobs' defensive mediocrity.. and you'll keep getting told that you don't know what you're talking about.. it is what it is.... :drinks:


Actually I didn't just use fangraphs UZR. I did use my eyes, scouts words/analyses, and a combination of UZR, total zone, fielding runs above average (FRAA), and defensive runs saved (all of which showed AC way below average).

As it was said earlier (not by me): "it's unanimous, he (Asdrubal Cabrera) has no range". Again, not my words. so i'm obviously not the only one who agrees that AC is very overrated defensively.

Also, again it wasn't a bullet to his left. It was a bullet right at him. He moved thus making the ball to his right (hence the Roger Dorn part). If he doesn't move, the ball hits him in the gut. I am roger dorning it? good one :rolleyes:

Cabrera isn't even the best defensive SS in the AL Central, let alone all of baseball. I will give you best all-around SS (though Peralta has been just as good), but strictly defensively he's not the best.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:13 pm

Good game yesterday for Brantley (other than the 9th inning), and now a leadoff single. Good sign with 5 hits (so far) in his last 3 games. Hopefully he's putting that disgustingly bad 20 game slump behind him :drinks:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Wouldn't be a Mitch Talbot start if it didn't involved coming from behind...

Mitch Talbot: A Model of Consistency
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:36 pm

Poetic justice there for LaPorta. Robbed of a double last night by Bautista....today a 2 base error by JB.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:43 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Wouldn't be a Mitch Talbot start if it didn't involved coming from behind...

Mitch Talbot: A Model of Consistency


ERA over 7 in 8+ starts since coming back
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:11 pm

This lineup sucks. It looks like LaPorta takes away Santana playing 1b. It also looks like OCab is needing one out of 4 days off. Phelps leaves and so does OCabs bat.

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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:15 pm

This should be it for Talbot. Out of this game - and DFA. I wonder if anyone would claim him?

How about DL for a hang nail.

Bob

PS: How come they hit with two out and we do not - I know Hafner last night - but how many LOBs?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:20 pm

Where's that Mitch Talbot thread when you need it.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:42 pm

Would be nice if Mitch Talbot were sent out the door after this game in favor of another bullpen arm.

He and McAllister have single handedly wrecked the bullpen in the last couple of games.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:52 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Would be nice if Mitch Talbot were sent out the door after this game in favor of another bullpen arm.

He and McAllister have single handedly wrecked the bullpen in the last couple of games.


I wonder if Talbot would be claimed if he was DFA.

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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:22 pm

Vinnie Pestano has been looking like... well... not Vinnie Pestano

Maybe it's getting too hot for him to sprint to the mound and he's exhausted by the time he gets there? :tease:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby criznit2009 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 10:41 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:Would be nice if Mitch Talbot were sent out the door after this game in favor of another bullpen arm.

He and McAllister have single handedly wrecked the bullpen in the last couple of games.


I wonder if Talbot would be claimed if he was DFA.

Bob


Yes 100%. We think he is bad but there are a handful of teams, even the Yanks and Red Sox who would give him a shot.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:34 am

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
...Think it's funny too. I call out Cabrera's defense prior to last season....get reamed. Then after the season Antonetti, Acta, and Shapiro do it as well. But hey, I'm 'wrong'

Again, AC has improved a lot from last year (and the year before). He came into camp looking in much better shape, which has helped. But he still has a ways to go before he's this elite defensive SS that some think he is (if he'll ever get there)....
You called out Fangraphs UZR+ as validation, which for lack of a better way of putting it, is about two steps lower than Webgems as an indication of a players defensive ability.. Sure, Droobs came to camp in good shape, that's his job..as is his job to make the plays at SS.. Last night.. the bullet to his left that was.. as you described, "roger dorn'd".. wasn't a bad play..that's a do or die play.. if the ball hits the glove.. you look great.. if it doesn't.. you are roger dorning it.. smh..

Sorry you don't see what everyone else does.. Droobs is the standard bearer for defensive wizardry and high quality defensive play at SS in the AL.. none better.. So, continue to call out Droobs' defensive mediocrity.. and you'll keep getting told that you don't know what you're talking about.. it is what it is.... :drinks:


Actually I didn't just use fangraphs UZR. I did use my eyes, scouts words/analyses, and a combination of UZR, total zone, fielding runs above average (FRAA), and defensive runs saved (all of which showed AC way below average).

As it was said earlier (not by me): "it's unanimous, he (Asdrubal Cabrera) has no range". Again, not my words. so i'm obviously not the only one who agrees that AC is very overrated defensively.

Also, again it wasn't a bullet to his left. It was a bullet right at him. He moved thus making the ball to his right (hence the Roger Dorn part). If he doesn't move, the ball hits him in the gut. I am roger dorning it? good one :rolleyes:

Cabrera isn't even the best defensive SS in the AL Central, let alone all of baseball. I will give you best all-around SS (though Peralta has been just as good), but strictly defensively he's not the best.
Droobs is not overrated defensively. He plays the position with aplomb. It was a bullet to his left, not at him. He dropped to his left knee as the ball whizzed by to his left. and "..scouts words/analysis.." is lame.. There is nothing below average about the way he plays the position. As far as you '..roger dorning it..", WTF are you talking about?.You may or may not own a glove and or have even the slightest amount of talent to play, that isn't and wasn't the point.. It is Asdrubal who wasn't "roger dorning it"....learn to read..
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:19 am

There's an interesting argument to be had that says that guys who constantly make "web gems" all have terrible range.

If you think about it, diving stops at the edge of your range should be really hard. That's something that you've got to have practice at, but it's also something you have to slow yourself down to do effectively. Whereas if you had been running hard the whole time you wouldn't need to make such a flashy play, and it would be really hard to make those dives at full speed without wrecking your body.

Just like with running the bases. Diving and sliding stop your momentum, which is what you're supposed to do if you're going to 2nd/3rd. But if you're trying to get to home or 1st, it's faster just to run by (avoiding tags notwithstanding).
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:24 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Droobs is not overrated defensively. He plays the position with aplomb. It was a bullet to his left, not at him. He dropped to his left knee as the ball whizzed by to his left. and "..scouts words/analysis.." is lame.. There is nothing below average about the way he plays the position.


Overrated: Asdrubal Cabrera. A consensus rating here: They all agree he has below-average range.

Again, those aren't my words. If you want to be a Paul Hoynes clone and buy into the AC hype, then fine. You have that right.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:03 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Droobs is not overrated defensively. He plays the position with aplomb. It was a bullet to his left, not at him. He dropped to his left knee as the ball whizzed by to his left. and "..scouts words/analysis.." is lame.. There is nothing below average about the way he plays the position.


Overrated: Asdrubal Cabrera. A consensus rating here: They all agree he has below-average range.

Again, those aren't my words. If you want to be a Paul Hoynes clone and buy into the AC hype, then fine. You have that right.
Paul Hoynes?.. it wasn't Paul Hoynes who is incorrectly stating that Asdrubal's defense is below average in any way..

it's you..

and you're wrong..

and will be reminded of being wrong whenever you have the timidity to quote some other source that can't see past the end of the nose on your face.. So you keep quoting these "sources" and you'll keep getting responses that contradict what anyone can see.. Asdrubal is the STANDARD BEARER for defensive excellence in the AL.. No one is better..

:s_biggrin
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:26 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Droobs is not overrated defensively. He plays the position with aplomb. It was a bullet to his left, not at him. He dropped to his left knee as the ball whizzed by to his left. and "..scouts words/analysis.." is lame.. There is nothing below average about the way he plays the position.


Overrated: Asdrubal Cabrera. A consensus rating here: They all agree he has below-average range.

Again, those aren't my words. If you want to be a Paul Hoynes clone and buy into the AC hype, then fine. You have that right.
Paul Hoynes?.. it wasn't Paul Hoynes who is incorrectly stating that Asdrubal's defense is below average in any way..

it's you..

and you're wrong..

and will be reminded of being wrong whenever you have the timidity to quote some other source that can't see past the end of the nose on your face.. So you keep quoting these "sources" and you'll keep getting responses that contradict what anyone can see.. Asdrubal is the STANDARD BEARER for defensive excellence in the AL.. No one is better..

:s_biggrin


http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/12293/handing-out-some-early-gold-gloves

Unlike some people, I actually backup with sources. But hey, at least you got Paul Hoynes and web gems.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:27 pm

Anyhoo......nice to see Valbuena getting the nod today at 2B. Definitely earned this promotion, hopefully he can take advantage of it.

And here's hoping Tomlin can keep it going. 1st half team MVP imo :drinks:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:45 pm

It's funny that the discussion about Asdrubal Cabrera's defense just won't die.

I kid you not, I can name about 200 Tribe-related things to complain about or nitpick on and not one of them would be Asdrubal Cabrera's defense.

Let's give it a rest, shall we?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:34 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:Droobs is not overrated defensively. He plays the position with aplomb. It was a bullet to his left, not at him. He dropped to his left knee as the ball whizzed by to his left. and "..scouts words/analysis.." is lame.. There is nothing below average about the way he plays the position.


Overrated: Asdrubal Cabrera. A consensus rating here: They all agree he has below-average range.

Again, those aren't my words. If you want to be a Paul Hoynes clone and buy into the AC hype, then fine. You have that right.
Paul Hoynes?.. it wasn't Paul Hoynes who is incorrectly stating that Asdrubal's defense is below average in any way..

it's you..

and you're wrong..

and will be reminded of being wrong whenever you have the timidity to quote some other source that can't see past the end of the nose on your face.. So you keep quoting these "sources" and you'll keep getting responses that contradict what anyone can see.. Asdrubal is the STANDARD BEARER for defensive excellence in the AL.. No one is better..

:s_biggrin


http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/12293/handing-out-some-early-gold-gloves

Unlike some people, I actually backup with sources. But hey, at least you got Paul Hoynes and web gems.



sorry that is not a back up, those metrics or whatever he is using is SHIT. Choo is the best defensive RF in baseball, means zero credibility for that article. ACAB is an average 2B but an article saying CHOO is the best is a joke
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:42 pm

jellis wrote:sorry that is not a back up, those metrics or whatever he is using is SHIT. Choo is the best defensive RF in baseball, means zero credibility for that article. ACAB is an average 2B but an article saying CHOO is the best is a joke


His arm makes up for it. Total zone, defensive runs saved, and FRAA all have him well above average in RF this year. also gotta remember that those are compared to only other RFers, not all outfielders. Compared to CFers Choo isn't that great, but compared to RFers he is above average overall (personally think he's a tad overrated thanks to his arm though).

ha, also better be careful. Trashing an Indians' players defense makes you 'wrong', didn't you hear?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:You aren't going to change Hermie's opinion! He may not always be right but he is NEVER wrong and will post until the cows come home to prove it. He is a "hater" to quote his phrase and he hates AsCab and Brantley. And he will work to the death to find some off the wall, inconsequential statistic to support his position. Just like iron, it is better to ignore the prejudice. I know I do except when I want to amuse myself by setting off one of his tirades. Apologies to the show for being a hypocrit. :pleasantry:


Oh I am wrong a lot (though not nearly as much as you). I love Asdrubal actually. But unlike you, I can like a player but still recognize where he needs to improve and is lackluster. Hell, I'd love to see the Tribe sign AC long-term.

I am also a big fan of Brantley (and was a fan of getting him over Taylor). Again though, when a guy struggles, I'll call him out on. Unlike you, I can figure this out. Also never realized on-base percentage was some "inconsequential statistic". That's a new one. :rolleyes: I mean, it's only the #1 thing for a leadoff hitter, but pst who cares about that (not ink obviously).

Then again, this is the guy that thought Hannahan's defense was poor in spring training so not truly surprised by your completely asinine comments day in and day out, especially regarding any player's defensive ability.



Think it's funny too. I call out Cabrera's defense prior to last season....get reamed. Then after the season Antonetti, Acta, and Shapiro do it as well. But hey, I'm 'wrong' :rolleyes: Kind of like when I said Brantley wan't ready before 2010 (and then they signed Branyan) or when I said we needed to move Donald to 3B (and we did). Crazy how 'wrong' i was about those as well :s_tongue

Again, AC has improved a lot from last year (and the year before). He came into camp looking in much better shape, which has helped. But he still has a ways to go before he's this elite defensive SS that some think he is (if he'll ever get there).

No offense Hermie but you are beginning to sound like a Voldemort clone. As much as you want recognition by being right, I doubt if anybody buys your self promotion any more than we did his. I know I don't! :nea:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby jellis » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:19 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:sorry that is not a back up, those metrics or whatever he is using is SHIT. Choo is the best defensive RF in baseball, means zero credibility for that article. ACAB is an average 2B but an article saying CHOO is the best is a joke


His arm makes up for it. Total zone, defensive runs saved, and FRAA all have him well above average in RF this year. also gotta remember that those are compared to only other RFers, not all outfielders. Compared to CFers Choo isn't that great, but compared to RFers he is above average overall (personally think he's a tad overrated thanks to his arm though).

ha, also better be careful. Trashing an Indians' players defense makes you 'wrong', didn't you hear?


BS to me, still not a single good defensive metric they are more all over the place then any stat in baseball. Choo might have a cannon, but that is all he has, he is a below average defender and if by the metrics he is the best RF in baseball to me it just shows how these metrics are a critical fail.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:07 pm

While on the topic of lack of range, boy does Travis Buck cover no ground in right field. There's no way that Snider should have scored on that Molina single turned double. Is his arm really that much better than Ez Carrera's to compensate for the fact that he covers no ground?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:25 pm

I don't get the post-hype love or hope holdout with Buck on here anyway...his crap percentage of ABs is way too high for my liking...so many lazy and unproductive outs in certain situation, almost NEVER a AB he battles...he looks like a backup MIF batting to be honest: groundout, lazy fly out or some lucky dribbler finding a hole...I really don't get why he's preferred to Duncan, who imho has had better ABs overall (still a bad player though, just not as crappy as Buck...I've at least seen Duncan fight some ABs every now and then)

Also, wasn't Buck the 1st to get demoted to AAA? So what has he done being the LHB in the RF platoon?

and as I write this robo-Buck and his non existent range cost us a run...if this ends up being the game winner :bad:

Good luck Mr Buck in AAA the next 10 years, I'm done with this guy...he's not only a non producing player, there's just something about his body language and lack of effort I simply don't like...he looks and plays like a content 1st round bust millionaire...PUNT
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Tondo » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:37 pm

Kearns pinch running for Pronk in the 9th, lol...yeah, who needs EZ Carrera
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby martyinnewyork » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:48 pm

Tondo... Mr. Buck says hello...
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:56 pm

Damn, speaking of battles Travis Buck had a great one right there to tie the game. Bout damn time.

If there's something that Travis Buck IS good at, it's that he's pretty clutch.

Innings 7-9: .350 BA / .366 OBP / .650 SLG

RISP: .355 / .394 / .419


And dammit, Chris Perez when he doesn't have the lead = ouch.
Saves situations: 1.83 ERA
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:06 pm

Team just does not hit enough. Team needs semi perfect D and pitching!
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:07 pm

Why did they even pitch to Bautista?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:02 pm

Tondo wrote:I don't get the post-hype love or hope holdout with Buck on here anyway...his crap percentage of ABs is way too high for my liking...so many lazy and unproductive outs in certain situation, almost NEVER a AB he battles...he looks like a backup MIF batting to be honest: groundout, lazy fly out or some lucky dribbler finding a hole...I really don't get why he's preferred to Duncan, who imho has had better ABs overall (still a bad player though, just not as crappy as Buck...I've at least seen Duncan fight some ABs every now and then)

Also, wasn't Buck the 1st to get demoted to AAA? So what has he done being the LHB in the RF platoon?

and as I write this robo-Buck and his non existent range cost us a run...if this ends up being the game winner :bad:

Good luck Mr Buck in AAA the next 10 years, I'm done with this guy...he's not only a non producing player, there's just something about his body language and lack of effort I simply don't like...he looks and plays like a content 1st round bust millionaire...PUNT


If you view Duncan as a better baseball player than Travis Buck you should step back and reconsider your opinion. Did he slap your momma or something? He had a bad read on a low line drive, recovered, made a smart throw behind the runner that glanced off his foot and now he's not able to play all three OF positions adequately? He has performed with any sort of consistant playing time and if he stays healthy he will produce, simple as that. I also think it's obvious that his hammy isn't 100% yet. Oh yea, that was his 1st E in the outfield during his major league career. Pretty good considering Lind was gunned at 1st if his foot doesn't deflect the ball. Tuff E in my opinion.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Chip Davis » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:04 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Why did they even pitch to Bautista?


Great question! :dunno:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby criznit2009 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:32 am

Chip Davis wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Why did they even pitch to Bautista?


Great question! :dunno:


Under any circumstance you do not walk the hitter intentionally right there. Unless his name is Jose Bautista, he is that damn good. Easily the top ML player who can beat you all by himself. If he has a weakness (he doesn't) on the base paths maybe??? Walk him next time, could be seen as "weak" by some and you want to go after guys right there, but in this case its probably safer to walk the guy (the only guy you IBB in baseball right there?) to start an inning.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:11 am

Chip Davis wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Why did they even pitch to Bautista?


Great question! :dunno:

you have an all star CL, you take your chance
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:19 am

criznit2009 wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:
Bearcatbob wrote:Why did they even pitch to Bautista?


Great question! :dunno:


Under any circumstance you do not walk the hitter intentionally right there. Unless his name is Jose Bautista, he is that damn good. Easily the top ML player who can beat you all by himself. If he has a weakness (he doesn't) on the base paths maybe??? Walk him next time, could be seen as "weak" by some and you want to go after guys right there, but in this case its probably safer to walk the guy (the only guy you IBB in baseball right there?) to start an inning.


Exactly criz! I don't care if you have Nolan Ryan pitching on the mound in the 10th inning. The dude had 30 homers so far in the 1st half of the season with a .333 average while leading the league in walks, you walk somebody like that if the game is on the line. I love Manny and think no less of him now, but I wouldn't have pitched to Jose.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:56 am

Chip Davis wrote: Tuff E in my opinion.


Tuff E? He actually had 2 errors on that play...he totally misplayed the ball in the air resulting in a missed catch, his positioning was horrible, then he threw a crap ball to 1B late and way too low (ball bounced some feet before LaPorta anyway, that's why it hit the runner)...the bad throw was what cost the run btw as the runner would have only advanced to 3rd had the throw been on target

He did have a great AB (1st of that I saw of him this season to be honest, must have missed his good ABs) to tie the game...ABs like that leave me wondering why he can't put up those more regularly...he threw away 3 ABs in that game before that. Still, like Kearn's HR the other night...it's not enough to change my opinion of him in the long run. He has to become more consistent to change my perception of him...if a night where he costs a run and then makes up for it by producing 1 (a wash) is the best he can do, well it's just not enough to make a difference

Oh, and when does Acta get that Perez shouldn't be sent into a non saving situation? :wacko:
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:02 am

BearcatBob, agree we need perfect D and exceptional pitching to win. Disappointed LaPorta wailed away at the first pitch late in the game with a runner in scoring position. He reminds me an awful lot of Casey Blake early in his career when Blake had difficulties at the plate.

If we can't pry away a professional hitter we should add another veteran starting pitcher. Truthfully we need both. Plus, one of the three guys (Huff, Gomez or McAllister) from Columbus to fill the other rotation spot. i'm suggesting we replace both Carmona and Talbot, but they won't do that. They'll pitch Carmona until the sun doesn't shine because they are paying him.

When you have a chance to WIN you go for it. It can't get done with tinkering they need to make at least two impact moves to win the division.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:24 am

Tondo wrote:
Chip Davis wrote: Tuff E in my opinion.


Tuff E? He actually had 2 errors on that play...he totally misplayed the ball in the air resulting in a missed catch, his positioning was horrible, then he threw a crap ball to 1B late and way too low (ball bounced some feet before LaPorta anyway, that's why it hit the runner)...the bad throw was what cost the run btw as the runner would have only advanced to 3rd had the throw been on target

He did have a great AB (1st of that I saw of him this season to be honest, must have missed his good ABs) to tie the game...ABs like that leave me wondering why he can't put up those more regularly...he threw away 3 ABs in that game before that. Still, like Kearn's HR the other night...it's not enough to change my opinion of him in the long run. He has to become more consistent to change my perception of him...if a night where he costs a run and then makes up for it by producing 1 (a wash) is the best he can do, well it's just not enough to make a difference

Oh, and when does Acta get that Perez shouldn't be sent into a non saving situation? :wacko:


No he didn't have 2 errors. The ball fell short of him, he didn't bobble it or drop it. His throw, while not perfect, wasn't a bad one either as it would have hit atleast 5-6ft in front of LaPorta not short hopping him. The ball deflected off of Lind's foot that caused the throwing error. That's bad luck in my book. I'm not arguing that Buck is the greatest OF to ever play the game. My point is that your assessment is harsh to say the least.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:07 am

He 1st went back on the fly ball and then had to come in, resulting in a close missed catch that should have been an easy out...he misplayed it, Manning noted it too...he tried being nice by not saying much else but it was a horrible play all around...also, I expect a RF to be able to make a straight throw to the 1B...he got the E for the throw I guess since it scored the run but the ball was catchable if he took a normal route to it too...even with the misjudgement, a little better effort would have made it too probably...he was caught sleeping there imho: route, effort, throw...his mind wasn't in that play, simple as that
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby smt1192 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:36 am

This is a big game for the Tribe today. This one sets the tone for the second half. We need a big start by Carrasco so the team can go into the break on a high note.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:21 pm

smt1192 wrote:This is a big game for the Tribe today. This one sets the tone for the second half. We need a big start by Carrasco so the team can go into the break on a high note.


Not only does it set the tone and get the team into the break on a high note, it ensures the team is in 1st place by themselves. As this fanbase is waking up to a team that is doing well, that will be hugh for attendance as the summer continues.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:48 pm

Isn't it crazy that we're 1 Travis Hafner swing away from playing today's game to avoid being swept by the Toronto Blue Jays in a 4 game series at home?
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:06 pm

That ball hit right in the center of Buck's glove and popped out. It should have been caught, period. He should have made a sliding catch rather than staying on his feet and reaching down to try and catch it off the top of his shoe on the dead run. Making a sliding catch lowers your eye level and puts it more on a plane with the ball.

Once it popped out of his glove he should have just lobbed it in to second base, in which case the run would not have scored. Instead, he tried to make up for dropping the ball by throwing behind the runner at first. That would have been all right if his throw was on the bag. Instead it was several feet toward second base where it hit the runner, causing the run to score.

Buck completely screwed up that play. He also got a late break on the ball which caused him to have to reach down for it in the first place. That combination of errors cost us the game.

He had a great at-bat in the 9th to tie the game temporarily, so give him credit for that.

With Choo out, Buck's the best we have. I'm hoping that more regular at-bats will result in better production at the plate. Defensively, I haven't noticed any problems until that unfortunate play yesterday.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:25 pm

Today's lineup is pitiful. The first inning was very sad!
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:43 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Today's lineup is pitiful. The first inning was very sad!


What did you expect? 5 LH batters, Grady, he of sub .700 OPS vs LHP and sub .550 this season hitting 5th...should we play both Kearns and Duncan?

We need a RH batter...we should go after Beltran imho
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:05 pm

I do not think this lineup can score five runs.
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Re: Blue Jays at Indians, July 7, 8, 9 & 10

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:26 pm

Prosecutor wrote:That ball hit right in the center of Buck's glove and popped out. It should have been caught, period. He should have made a sliding catch rather than staying on his feet and reaching down to try and catch it off the top of his shoe on the dead run. Making a sliding catch lowers your eye level and puts it more on a plane with the ball.

Once it popped out of his glove he should have just lobbed it in to second base, in which case the run would not have scored. Instead, he tried to make up for dropping the ball by throwing behind the runner at first. That would have been all right if his throw was on the bag. Instead it was several feet toward second base where it hit the runner, causing the run to score.

Buck completely screwed up that play. He also got a late break on the ball which caused him to have to reach down for it in the first place. That combination of errors cost us the game.

He had a great at-bat in the 9th to tie the game temporarily, so give him credit for that.

With Choo out, Buck's the best we have. I'm hoping that more regular at-bats will result in better production at the plate. Defensively, I haven't noticed any problems until that unfortunate play yesterday.


He made a bad read on a line drive that looked like a sinker. If you have played any OF at all, at any level you know that it's a tuff play sometimes. My frustration here is the focus on this one play that should've/could've gone differently and nothing mentioned about anyone else. Perez's meatball to the most dangerous hitter in baseball with the game on the line, OCab not hitting anything with runners in scoring position, same could be said about Hafner, Tomlin's lackluster start, and the list goes on.
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