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If I Were King

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If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:27 pm

The most obvious thing to me is that Cord Phelps will not benefit by playing part time - and that I see no reason why he should displace OCab until we are dead and buried in the division. With this thought - I would promote Valbuena (I never thought I would say that) and let him be the reserve infielder. He has time in the majors and can play short. An alternate to this would be to use Donald in place of Valbuena. I am assuming Hannahan will be kept as the backup to Chis.

Then we come to catcher, first base and RF. When LaPorta comes back - Santana catches. Until we make a trade, or Choo comes back - I would play Duncan and Buck - and let the best man win.

It seems to me that we will ultimately face the situation that either Brantly or Sizemore must go. One or the other plays center and we get a right handed bat for left - what I thought LaPorta was going to be.

Now imagine - Marson catches, Santana plays one b - LaPorta plays left - and either Sizemore or Brantly play center.

Bob
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Re: If I Were King

Postby ACrank » Sun Jul 03, 2011 6:40 pm

i disagree with saying either Sizemore or Brantley must go - mainly because i figure Sizemore is on his way out anyhow.

Valbuena should be called up, but i would hope he would get pt (if they can't find it for Phelps not sure how they can find it for him). i might have a bias against Donald, but not sure i'm that concerned about his getting PT.

Before LaPorta was hurt i wondered if he could be traded to some team who had a RH power bat at first and might be interested in moving him in a rebuild mode, but i doubted such a creature actually existed. i'd still prefer to see LaPorta as an of, but at this point i'd rather he be an eventual RF then today's LF.

July/August will be interesting to see what happens roster wise. There are players that will be of interest for some rebuilding team - the question is will it be Cleveland or some other team?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:26 pm

Cord Phelps is hitting .200 and has five errors in 11 games. He's not helping. Meanwhile, Kipnis is lighting up the International League. I'd bring up Kipnis and send Phelps down.

With Chiz at 3rd, ACab at short and Kipnis at 2nd, I don't know what to do with Valbuena. He's earned another shot, but where do we put him? He's probably a better hitter than either Kearns or Duncan, but can he play right field?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:31 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Cord Phelps is hitting .200 and has five errors in 11 games. He's not helping. Meanwhile, Kipnis is lighting up the International League. I'd bring up Kipnis and send Phelps down.

With Chiz at 3rd, ACab at short and Kipnis at 2nd, I don't know what to do with Valbuena. He's earned another shot, but where do we put him? He's probably a better hitter than either Kearns or Duncan, but can he play right field?


OCab is going to play the majority of the games as long as we are in the chase. As long as that is the case an older player should be the backup. Perhaps Donald being right handed would be a better fit than Valbuena.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby hoof32 » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:43 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Cord Phelps is hitting .200 and has five errors in 11 games. He's not helping. Meanwhile, Kipnis is lighting up the International League. I'd bring up Kipnis and send Phelps down.


Yeah, I think sending Phelps down is not the way to go.

He's making good contact now, and I see nothing wrong with his game.

Lots of rookies have troubles breaking into MLB. Willie Mays broke in with a 1-for-26.

Phelps can play several roles and positions. Acta says he's fearless.

Also, it's not really Manny Acta's style to drop players abruptly... such as Austin Kearns.

So Phelps stays and Kipnis will have to wait a bit longer.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby entertheshoe » Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:29 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Cord Phelps is hitting .200 and has five errors in 11 games. He's not helping. Meanwhile, Kipnis is lighting up the International League. I'd bring up Kipnis and send Phelps down.

With Chiz at 3rd, ACab at short and Kipnis at 2nd, I don't know what to do with Valbuena. He's earned another shot, but where do we put him? He's probably a better hitter than either Kearns or Duncan, but can he play right field?


OCab is going to play the majority of the games as long as we are in the chase. As long as that is the case an older player should be the backup. Perhaps Donald being right handed would be a better fit than Valbuena.


I agree that there's no reason to call up Kipnis if Orlando Cabrera is still here. I agree that Cord Phelps shouldn't be here (he's not getting enough work). I also think that it should be Jason Donald or Luis Valbuena playing the utility role. I'm not sure that I agree with Donald being the better fit than Valbuena because he's right handed. While it would be nice to have a RH bat in the lineup (Donald) the only real place to stick Donald would be at 2nd (where Orlando is already a righty) or SS (where Droobs is a switch hitter). I don't know if Donald has enough experience at 3rd, nor should he really be taking playing time away from Chisenhall (even versus lefties, Chis needs to learn to hit them eventually). IMO, Valbuena makes more sense because Orlando struggles versus righties (.243 BA), thus he would be a better platoon player (.330 BA v righties) once or twice a week at 2nd than Donald would be. Still, I wouldn't complain either way if it was Donald or Valbuena. I do like Valbuena's ability to place LF though.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:28 am

OCab is going to play the majority of the games as long as we are in the chase. As long as that is the case an older player should be the backup. Perhaps Donald being right handed would be a better fit than Valbuena.


Donald is 26 years old; Valbuena is 25. They both have about the same amount of major league experience, but Valbuena's numbers at Columbus are better. Plus, he's on a roll right now. His numbers are better than what Phelps put up at Columbus, too. And he can play left field. When Grady gets a day off we have to play both Kearns and Duncan. At the halfway point of the season Kearns is hitting .196 with a grand total of 2 RBI. I'd rather put Valbs in left; I'm pretty sure he would have more than 2 RBI after his first 100 AB's.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:03 am

What is the depth chart for the organization for the infield?

My wife and I spent all day yesterday looking forward to our trip to the Prog to watch the two CCs battle. What a disappointment.

From the second inning on I was frustrated by what appears to be complete disarray in the team infield roster strategy from Cleveland to Columbus.

3b: It looks like Chis is here to stay and Hannahan should be his backup. This means there is no critical 3b decisions needed at Columbus. It was clear OCab is not a 3b solution.

SS: ACab is the star and OCab could be his backup. With OCab at 36 it is important that Columbus develop someone who can play short in case ACab gets hurt or needs a rest.

2b: This is an absolute disaster zone. Phelps simply is not ready for the majors at 2b. It looks to me like he has trouble going to his right and throwing back across his body. Terry Pluto this am lobbied for Donald. The Lets Go Tribe blog is making a case for Valbuena. IMO as long as we are in the race the job belongs to OCab. Columbus is Kipnis - but if his D is worse than Phelps -OMG. That means we need a backup that can defensively play the position.

The issue then comes down to where does Phelps play and who is the utility infielder? If Phelps is not able to play a single position every day at Columbus - where does he fit? If he is a hitter - how about LF.

The bottom line is what is the depth chart for the organization for the infield?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby daingean » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:23 am

Bearcatbob wrote:
2b: This is an absolute disaster zone. Phelps simply is not ready for the majors at 2b. It looks to me like he has trouble going to his right and throwing back across his body. Terry Pluto this am lobbied for Donald. The Lets Go Tribe blog is making a case for Valbuena. IMO as long as we are in the race the job belongs to OCab. Columbus is Kipnis - but if his D is worse than Phelps -OMG. That means we need a backup that can defensively play the position.



1. Kipnis has been playing 2B less than 2 years. He just needs reps to finish off his defensive development. He will be OK or better but needs reps.

2. Phelps has played a ton of 2B but not a lot this season. Maybe needs some reps to find his groove again. The Show is not the place to get those reps though.

3. I'm for Donald above Valby simply because Donald's RH bat fits better. Valby adds value as he has more positions in his repertoire since he has played OF this season.

4. I'm all for adding a bat this month and moving a few prospects. Not looking for a Pence type player but more like an Angel Pagan or young OF like Fernando Martinez (a former Mets #1 prospect which hasn't been able to establish himself at the ML level). Forget the high price guys, they just need an upgrade for the everyday line-up until Choo returns. I'm not interested in mortgaging the future for that piece.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:22 am

I'm not interested in mortgaging the future for that piece.


If we get Pence, he is the future. 25 home runs three consecutive years and this year he's hitting .327 and on pace for 100 RBIs on a bad offensive team. He's 28 years old and we would have him for two more years, which would give us time to develop some guys in the minors like Weglarz or this kid Miles that we just drafted.

As for the infield, Donald makes sense but he's mired in a slump right now. I'd put Valbuena at second. He made an adjustment in his swing recently and has been raking at Columbus. He can also play left field when Grady gets a day off so we don't have to use Duncan or Kearns if we don't want to. He's 25, let's see what he's got and if he has a spot on this roster going forward. Phelps may eventually play up here but right now he needs to go back down.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:45 am

Mildly interesting article in the ABJ today... it is a Sheldon Ocker "non-story" story about what Sheldon thinks.. Of course, having no cajones, the headline, which Ocker is not responsible for, has the subject of the story being attributed to Chris Antonetti (CA).. Anyway, off the soap box for now..

In the story.. CA is quoted from what realistically could have come from 2009 and onward. He states the usual.. "..the organization is open to.. the ownership encourages improvement.. the compromise.. budgetary requirements..yada yada.." You know the drill..

What was interesting was CA stating: "Dialogue between teams has picked up since the draft....as it stands now, the offense is probably an area that has been the least consistent so the the focus is on improvement there.."

A HUGE admission of intent from CA, imho.. CA doesn't make statement like this unless there is something in the works.. What that is.. IDK.. Of course, it ( the results/acquisition, if any, of improving the offense) will be published in a blog/website/etc, or one of the out of town papers from which Ocker and Hoynes will both let Indian fans in on the story....the following day or two..
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:13 am

Was scanning the ML rosters of some teams that may be considering selling off some pieces (while not hopelessly out of it.. moving in that direction) or may be "in it" but need a boost in their bullpen or middle infield and came across two names for consideration:

Nolan Reimold, Orioles: Hits equally well against LHP's and RHPs, had a good 2009 & subpar 2010. Started 2011 in the minors and was . Is currently hitting .271/.362/.854 in 59 AB's over 23 games. He can play both corner OF positions and was considered by Buck Showalter as a fillin for Derek Lee at 1B. He doesn't embarrass himself with the leather. Will be enter ARB I in 2012.

Marlon Byrd Cubs: Actually is hitting better against RHP's this season, but has shown (2010) that he can and does hit LHP's very well. Just recently off the DL. Has a "reasonable" contract: $ 5.5 MM prorated for 2011, $ 6.5 MM for 2012, is versatile defensively: plays all three OF spots and is said to be a very positive clubhouse influence.

Both are right handed hitting OF'ers and could help the Indians against LHP's.....
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Re: If I Were King

Postby ACrank » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:28 am

Prosecutor wrote:
I'm not interested in mortgaging the future for that piece.


If we get Pence, he is the future. 25 home runs three consecutive years and this year he's hitting .327 and on pace for 100 RBIs on a bad offensive team. He's 28 years old and we would have him for two more years, which would give us time to develop some guys in the minors like Weglarz or this kid Miles that we just drafted.

As for the infield, Donald makes sense but he's mired in a slump right now. I'd put Valbuena at second. He made an adjustment in his swing recently and has been raking at Columbus. He can also play left field when Grady gets a day off so we don't have to use Duncan or Kearns if we don't want to. He's 25, let's see what he's got and if he has a spot on this roster going forward. Phelps may eventually play up here but right now he needs to go back down.


Because Pence is under team control for a while he isn't going to come cheaply (and i just read something today saying Houston wasn't going to trade him). i could see the Astros asking for Pomerantz, and honestly if i was their GM i wouldn't blame them for that. Is he worth it?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:34 pm

Indians have moreorless said they will not be trading away any of their top prospects. So forget about any SP in Columbus going anywhere. If they trade anyone it will be a mid-level prospect to acquire a complementary type player. I wouldn't expect anything more than that. Think the exact opposite of last year with Peralta-Soto where we are the team acquiring the ML player.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:14 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Indians have moreorless said they will not be trading away any of their top prospects. So forget about any SP in Columbus going anywhere. If they trade anyone it will be a mid-level prospect to acquire a complementary type player. I wouldn't expect anything more than that. Think the exact opposite of last year with Peralta-Soto where we are the team acquiring the ML player.

+1. The idea that they will break up what they built at great cost does not compute. Some excess can be moved buy not the prime prospects. If it is to be a ML ready or near ready SP, I would speculate that Talbot might be at the forefront. But it is a lot to ask of rookies in a pennant race as we have already seen. :friends:
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:14 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Indians have moreorless said they will not be trading away any of their top prospects. So forget about any SP in Columbus going anywhere. If they trade anyone it will be a mid-level prospect to acquire a complementary type player. I wouldn't expect anything more than that. Think the exact opposite of last year with Peralta-Soto where we are the team acquiring the ML player.


hmm, I'm assuming you mean that Huff isn't included because he's not a prospect? And is Kluber really a 'top' prospect? I'd think Kluber fell into that mid-level prospect status. Or do you mean top as in high level? Just curious

Think you're Soto-Peralta comp makes sense.

Still think you could see the Indians becoming buyers and sellers (like the Rays are rumored to become). Think moving Talbot in the right deal makes sense as ink said. Won't get you a star but could get an ok bat as starting pitching is always in demand. also think a guy like Smith who seems buried in the pen could be made available (Putnam, Judy, or Lee could take his spot). Bullpen help is always in demand and we could possibly sell high on Smith (who will be arby eligible again).
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Re: If I Were King

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:37 am

Yeah, I believe Talbot could be on the move too.....part of the reason I think Z-Mac is getting the start today is to get a look at him so the Indians can feel comfortable with him, Gomez, and Huff for that final spot in the rotation and as injury depth if they let Talbot go.

Huff is a guy who probably could be dealt, yes, but I don't anticipate them trading him. I've heard people say "let's trade Barnes and so and so for this guy" and that's just not gonna happen. They are not going to trade their high leverl guys.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:25 am

It does come down to who has a future with the Indians and who is expendable or excess...

The ideal situation would be to trade an expendable asset or assets already on the forty man roster. The list of those players is pretty limited. The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot. From these six players, the return could be an "okay" player, perhaps someone who can hit well against left handed pitching, but not much more. It's looking more and more like the Indians will be going into the second half of the season with the group of players that are already here..and that's not a bad thing..

We shall see...
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Re: If I Were King

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:55 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot.


Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.

Now, I agree that Kluber and Talbot are excess guys. Lots more options better than them either needing to get to the 25-man or 40-man roster. Talbot is a guy I could see us trading to a team looking for starting pitching.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby daingean » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:07 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.


+1 Many people look at Kipnis' stats and are already writing him in the starting line-up in '12 and beyond before he even proves himself at the Show. I have seen way too many hot shot prospects fail. The Tribe has several 2B prospects but there is no way to tell who will be manning the position when the dust settles. Certainly Kipnis is at the top of the list for '12 but the advantage the Indians have is the depth right now.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:44 pm

daingean wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.


+1 Many people look at Kipnis' stats and are already writing him in the starting line-up in '12 and beyond before he even proves himself at the Show. I have seen way too many hot shot prospects fail. The Tribe has several 2B prospects but there is no way to tell who will be manning the position when the dust settles. Certainly Kipnis is at the top of the list for '12 but the advantage the Indians have is the depth right now.


An interesting 2b question is what happens if the Indians make the playoffs and OCab plays an important role in that?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:44 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot.


Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.

Now, I agree that Kluber and Talbot are excess guys. Lots more options better than them either needing to get to the 25-man or 40-man roster. Talbot is a guy I could see us trading to a team looking for starting pitching.


I agree that Donald has value to us....but I don't see why you need to have a backup infielder like him. There is ALWAYS a guy like a Hannahan or an Everett that you can grab for nothing and plug into the bench. Hell, the mighty Boston Red Sox have used Drew Sutton this year as a backup infielder.

We have 4 guys for 1 spot, the starting 2B job. I'm fine with moving 1 of them. If you wait til one does claim the job (which likely won't be for a while), then you run the risk of losing any value a guy like Valbuena or Donald may have.

Guess I just see no real difference in a guy like Everett (or any minor league free agent) and a guy like Donald long-term on the bench. Yeah Donald will out hit him....but if he's not getting many at-bats, does it even make a dent in the final standings?


Doesn't mean we 'have' to move one of those 2B's though. but we shouldn't say 'no deal' because we aren't sure who will be the 2B. At least IMO.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby entertheshoe » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:08 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:
daingean wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.


+1 Many people look at Kipnis' stats and are already writing him in the starting line-up in '12 and beyond before he even proves himself at the Show. I have seen way too many hot shot prospects fail. The Tribe has several 2B prospects but there is no way to tell who will be manning the position when the dust settles. Certainly Kipnis is at the top of the list for '12 but the advantage the Indians have is the depth right now.


An interesting 2b question is what happens if the Indians make the playoffs and OCab plays an important role in that?


If that happens then hopefully Orlando signs a big contract elsewhere and gets us a nice compensatory pick in next year's draft.

:dirol:

@daingean I agree with your concern, but I still think that Jason Kipnis has shown that he deserves the most consideration. In fact, I would go as far as to say that regardless of how well he performs, unless he craps the boat defensively (a la Cord Phelps' it) Jason Kipnis deserves the playing time and chance to play through struggles and not get an immediate axe. Patience is the key with these guys and Kipnis is a priority spec and rightfully so. When Spring Training rolls around next year, Kipnis is like the BCS #1 ranked guy and it's going to be tough for the non-AQ guys like Valbuena and Donald to take his spot.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:55 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:It does come down to who has a future with the Indians and who is expendable or excess...

The ideal situation would be to trade an expendable asset or assets already on the forty man roster. The list of those players is pretty limited. The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot. From these six players, the return could be an "okay" player, perhaps someone who can hit well against left handed pitching, but not much more. It's looking more and more like the Indians will be going into the second half of the season with the group of players that are already here..and that's not a bad thing..

We shall see...

I am in general agreement with both you and Tony in this. I am not quite ready to send off Donald and Valbuena without a decent return or any of the pitchers except RH RPs without a meaningful return. The Indians have already shown they intend to proceed with the rebuild IMO. Phelps and Chisenhall are players to be evaluated for long term and 25% (or more) of the active roster are full time MLs for the full time. They could use a RH bat and a little birdy told me some serious talks are going on regarding Juan Rivera with our opponents the next four games. Not a perfect Choice IMO but another veteran presence probably won't hurt. Maybe Tondo is right and somebody like Denorfia would be a target. I see no indication the Pads would trade him even though he has been slumping for the last month. They are committed to trade Ludwick as soon as Blanks finishes rehab from the local scuttlebutt and would still need a very mediocre RF platoon after that.

Personally, I prefer the streaky Francouer. He even has an option for next year that might be helpful in the event we decline Grady's option. I have heard that Francouer is almost as brain dead and uncoachable as Manny Ramirez which is awfully hard to believe but he is not paid to be a centerpiece for the future. Just my thoughts, not fighting words. :pleasantry:
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Re: If I Were King

Postby daingean » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:10 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
Personally, I prefer the streaky Francouer. He even has an option for next year that might be helpful in the event we decline Grady's option. I have heard that Francouer is almost as brain dead and uncoachable as Manny Ramirez which is awfully hard to believe but he is not paid to be a centerpiece for the future. Just my thoughts, not fighting words. :pleasantry:


Not brain dead but stubborn. Both make them uncoachable. Francouer (Frenchy as he was called down here) will not take a walk (can be gotten out without throwing a strike to him) but he does have a cannon in right and is a good defender with power (when he makes contact).
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:45 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot.


Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.

Now, I agree that Kluber and Talbot are excess guys. Lots more options better than them either needing to get to the 25-man or 40-man roster. Talbot is a guy I could see us trading to a team looking for starting pitching.


The statement was expendable or excess.. as in Phelps, Kipnis, Valbuena and Donald (his best spot) along with Orlando Cabrera for 2B. that sounds a LOT like excess.

Who of these five guys would be most likely to be sent off in a trade?.. IDK.. depends on the trade..

Who would I like to see depart.. none of them. Donald is a gamer, Cord hasn't shown what he can or can't do in his fifty MLB AB's but has performed admirably in AAA and the AZL in the last year. Kipnis hasn't even finished a year of AAA and is raking as a future stud prospect & starter, so he's not going anywhere. Valbuena is having a killer year in Columbus after the better part of a failed season in Cleveland. OCabby is the established starter and vet on a first place club. All bring to the table talent and intangibles.

For the pitchers...perhaps Huff & Talbot have any significant value, especially Huff, who's shown some success at the MLB level and is a lefty. Kluber is a mystery at this point..

So.. an excess of five guys for one, perhaps two spots (utility infielder).. means someone will be going.. who and when is undefined.. Kluber. Talbot and / or Huff could become the "straw that stirs the drink" in a trade.. Losing Huff would hurt more than the other two..imho..
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:46 pm

BTW.. it wasn't Buck who was demoted to make room for Z-Mac.. Cord Phelps was demoted...
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:59 am

TonyIPI wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:The position players who may fit that description include perhaps only Jared Goedert, Jason Donald, & Luis Valbuena. The pitching assets on the forty man that may be considered expendable include David Huff, Corey Kluber, and, maybe, Mitch Talbot.


Not sure on agree on most of these guys being "expendable".

Last I saw, 2B is still up for grabs. Phelps tanked in his short call, Valbuena struggled last year, and Kipnis is an unknown. Also we have no backup infielder, so Donald still is valuable long term. I personally see no way we trade any of Valbuena, Donald, Phelps, or Kipnis until someone grabs 2B as their own and proves themself. In the meantime, we need internal options so they have to be here.

Now, I agree that Kluber and Talbot are excess guys. Lots more options better than them either needing to get to the 25-man or 40-man roster. Talbot is a guy I could see us trading to a team looking for starting pitching.


I find Kluber to be an interesting story. He's not having a very good season thus far but his k rate is good. He's big, durable, and young and needs to regain his control IMO. I'd keep him before Talbot because I think he could go the way of McCallister. I look for him to have a much better 2nd half.

I would like to see Huff replace Talbot. If David could pitch well then his value to other teams compounds exponetially and I think he gives the Indians a better chance to win than Talbot. I have lost my confidence in Talbot if it isn't obvious.

I think Donald is going to be a good major league player. He's one of those guys that doesn't do anything great but does everything good. His injuries couldn't have come at a worse time and I hope he gets his shot even if it's with another organization.

In my eyes, there is little doubt that Kipnis will be the starting 2b next season. It's obvious that they want to give him more time to develop defensively and that is the only reason he is not currently with the club.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:18 pm

I think it is important to find out if Valbuena can get back to earlier form. If he can - he will have value either in a trade or as the utility guy. If he fails - well then he is out of the picture and the younger guys will get their chance.

I am reminded of the supposed resurrection of Marte at Columbus.

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Re: If I Were King

Postby ACrank » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:14 pm

The hope is Valbuena gets more time to play then Marte did. Or Phelps, for that matter. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:20 pm

After watching the inept hitting today - my next move would be to put LaPorta back into the outfield.

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Re: If I Were King

Postby ACrank » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:09 am

Putting LaPorta back into the OF (lf with Brantley or Sizemore sitting. i assume) and who at first?
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:15 am

ACrank wrote:Putting LaPorta back into the OF (lf with Brantley or Sizemore sitting. i assume) and who at first?


I assume Sizemore and Brantley both play. The issue then is who plays right. Yesterday we played Kearns in RF and LaPorta sat. Duncan sat as well.

The RH batting order would have Santana at first (or Duncan) and Marson catching.

I have not seen Duncan to be so horrible on defense as talked about.

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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:59 am

Interesting article by Jim Bowden, ESPN. He seems to think there is a chance the trading deadline sellers will be interested in acquiring some of the players that were in the Futures Game.. while that may be true, his take on a few of the players is quite interesting.. from the perspective of the Indians, if they choose to take the stance that they are both sellers as well as buyers. This would NOT be a capitulation, but it never hurts to put an iron or two into the fire.. Generally, the Indians would need to trade away a piece or pieces that would MATTER as far as the 2011 season, is concerned. While unlikely, the pieces returned.. could be quite interesting:

RHP Carlos Martinez, St. Louis Cardinals: Martinez, 19, has one of the best fastballs in minor league baseball. His velocity will sit at 95-97 and touch 100 mph with cutting action. He also throws a curveball and changeup, both of which show above-average potential. He misses bats at a high rate, but the Cardinals want him to throw the two-seamer more often so that he can get quicker outs. His command and control are impressive for a teenager. He is the Cardinals’ second-best pitching prospect behind Shelby Miller and has a chance to be a No. 1 starter or impact closer, but he’s two or three years away. The Padres have asked for him in a Heath Bell deal and have been turned down. The Cardinals don’t intend to trade him, but if you’re the Astros with Wandy Rodriguez to dangle in front of you at the deadline, you’d have to at least think about it. The Astros and Padres have to be scouting him Sunday at the Futures Game.


If the Indians are convinced that they are in need of "upgrading" the number of FOR type starters in their system, perhaps a JeanMar Gomez, Scotty Barnes and or one of the many bullpen arms currently in Cleveland (Joe Smith ?) or at AAA/AA could be enough to make this kind of trade a no brainer?

3B Will Middlebrooks, Boston Red Sox: Middlebrooks, 22, is starting to put it together for the Portland Sea Dogs, Boston’s Double-A affiliate. Last year he was voted by the managers in the Carolina League to be the circuit’s best defensive third baseman and to have its strongest infield arm. He strikes out once out of four times up, but his raw power is finally coming, as he’s on pace for a 20-homer season. He has a 6-foot-4, 210-pound frame, and he’s gifted with terrific bat speed. Middlebrooks was taken by the Red Sox in the fifth round of the 2007 draft out of Liberty-Eylau High School out of Texarkana, Texas. On the surface, it looks as though the Red Sox farm system is not deep enough in position players to be able to part with Middlebrooks. However, with All-Stars Adrian Gonzalez at first and Kevin Youkilis at third base, if the Red Sox can acquire a long-term solution for right field or acquire a legitimate, proven 15-game winner, they will have to consider parting with Middlebrooks. Several scouting departments will evaluate Middlebrooks today, because the inventory of third basemen at all levels of professional baseball is remarkably low right now, and he’s a piece the Red Sox could have the luxury of including in the right deal.


While it's unlikely the Indians would begin to consider trading away a proven 15 game winner (there isn't one), the Red Sox appear to be in serious need of starting pitchers that are mlb ready or near mlb ready and at least one, and perhaps two bullpen arms. Arms we have.. Right Handed power hitters that are superb defenders, we can use as many as we can get..

SS Jurickson Profar, Texas Rangers: Profar, 18, is the Rangers’ best position player prospect, and with their future set for the long-term with Elvis Andrus at shortstop, Profar is the player whom most “sellers” are asking for in exchange for bullpen help. The New York Mets (in discussions for Francisco Rodriguez) and San Diego Padres (in a potential deal for Heath Bell) have asked for him. Profar is a potential five-tool shortstop and is gifted with soft hands, good first-step quickness and phenomenal instincts. He has a gun for an arm, and it’s accurate. At the plate, he’s a switch-hitter with a level swing from both sides, but he has better bat speed from the right side; he projects to have 15-20 home run power. I doubt the Rangers would deal him for a short-term addition of a top reliever, but that won’t stop teams from holding out for him in hopes that Texas’ depth at the shortstop position and the fact that he is three to four years away would persuade the Rangers to move him in the right blockbuster.


Bullpen arms.. we have.. switch/power hitting middle infielders, we can use.. While it doesn't look like much of a fit, Texas' hitters seem to be a "good match" for the Indians... perhaps along with a catcher?

RHP Arodys Vizcaino, Atlanta Braves: Vizcaino, 20, has tremendous stuff: a 93-96 mph fastball with a wipeout curve ball that he throws with command and control, while his changeup is improving. Vizcaino has become the Braves’ second-best pitching prospect behind Julio Teheran. Considering the Braves’ starting rotation and bullpen depth at the major league level and that they have Teheran already on the way, Vizcaino could be included in the second major trade of his career. (He was packaged in the five-player transaction in December 2009, coming to the Braves with outfielder Melky Cabrera and reliever Mike Dunn in exchange for Javier Vazquez and Boone Logan.) Dunn already has been traded to the Marlins for Dan Uggla -- Vizcaino could be next. The Braves are in need of a leadoff hitter and have been linked to trade discussions with the Twins (possibly for Denard Span or Ben Revere) and the Astros (possibly for Michael Bourn). Vizcaino could be ready for the major leagues as early as next year and could develop into a topof-the-rotation starter. He’s a definite potential trade piece for Braves GM Frank Wren at the deadline.


While it would hurt, a near MLB ready FOR for Michael Brantley sounds like a deal that could be too good to pass on. With Zeke Carrera in AAA, and raking, why not?

any comments would be appreciated...
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Re: If I Were King

Postby hoof32 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:00 am

Matt LaPorta will not play OF this year unless it's an emergency. EOS.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby jellis » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:48 pm

Jim Bowden is not a good source for anything baseball, when was the last time he managed a team to even an average finish. His trading and valuing of prospects is way way below the curve. Almost none of those prospects would even be considered in a deal. Deals will happen for lesser guys but not the top 50
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Re: If I Were King

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:52 pm

jellis wrote:Jim Bowden is not a good source for anything baseball, when was the last time he managed a team to even an average finish. His trading and valuing of prospects is way way below the curve. Almost none of those prospects would even be considered in a deal. Deals will happen for lesser guys but not the top 50

That's your response?.. ".. it's jim bowden.. don't listen.."..??

Okay..
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Re: If I Were King

Postby jellis » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:53 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
jellis wrote:Jim Bowden is not a good source for anything baseball, when was the last time he managed a team to even an average finish. His trading and valuing of prospects is way way below the curve. Almost none of those prospects would even be considered in a deal. Deals will happen for lesser guys but not the top 50

That's your response?.. ".. it's jim bowden.. don't listen.."..??

Okay..


No my response is Bowden does not know whats he's talking about, and look at the deals of the last 3 years. Carlos Martinez and such players do not get traded anymore for 6 months of a guy. the article itself showed me me how unconnected bowden is to real life baseball thought. Every article he has written on ESPn has been about 4 years outdated in thought process,
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Re: If I Were King

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:27 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
jellis wrote:Jim Bowden is not a good source for anything baseball, when was the last time he managed a team to even an average finish. His trading and valuing of prospects is way way below the curve. Almost none of those prospects would even be considered in a deal. Deals will happen for lesser guys but not the top 50

That's your response?.. ".. it's jim bowden.. don't listen.."..??

Okay..


Not sure what the point would be to trade a Jeanmar Gomez for a Carlos Martinez. Sure, Martinez has lots of upside....but I think the Indians and most team would take the more polished and sure thing with Gomez rather Martinez who still has several levels to go before the goods can even show if they materialize. I keep Gomez, hands down.
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Re: If I Were King

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:11 pm

Profar sounds like Lindor but a year older/closer. Wanted the Tribe to draft Middlebrooks but the K rate is ugly & those don't usually improve as a player moves up. Wish I'd seen the Futures Game(working).
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