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How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

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How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby stoike » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:22 am

Carmona has spun completely out of control. Far and away their worst starter right now. Can anything be done??
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Tondo » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:44 am

We have discussed the options in the Rockies game thread:

1. Trade him for whatever you can get

2. Just put him on waivers and lose him for nothing

3. Release Durbin/option Herrmann, call up a SP and "hide"/work on Carmona as the mop up guy

That said, another thin ice walker is Buck, who is starting to make me mad...his pinch hit AB in the 9th yesterday was another opportunity he wasted hitting a lazy, short fly ball on the 1st pitch...someone else derserves a chance, he wasted his imho. LaPorta is on DL and Buck hasn't even played 1B yet...why was he brought back? For the time being we can get by with Santana and Hannahan at 1st and I'd give Head his MLB shot...already on the 40man and deserving are Donald, Valbuena, E.Carrera, Goedert (good LHP hitter) and why not: Weglarz
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby indians1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:34 am

i think you give him a few more starts, but does anybody trust him in big game? If we are in the playoffs, would you trust giving him the ball in a crucial game?

Even though he has a contract that the indians have full control over, at what point do you cut your losses and move on?

You have Mccalister and scott barnes pitching very well and deserving of a promotion.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:02 am

It's a bit of a gamble either way.

You 'hide' Carmona in the pen and go with anyone from Columbus at the moment. Give Carmona a few more chances to muster up something. Or sever the cord.

Right now he has a little while longer. Acta's comments indicate that IMO. Something along the lines of "this isn't fantasy baseball, we can't just drop him and get someone else". That at least tells me they're not prepared to make a move.

Truth is Carmona has more to offer than anyone in C-bus, and we would get dicked in any trades and we know that. Not like we can deal a project for a need. And having Carmona come out of the pen in non pressure situations isn't going to fix anything. Throwing a few innings here and there wont get Carmona near the level that Carrasco has been at recently or the level of consistency Masterson's shown all season.

Unless the Indians can manipulate a DL stint, which isn't happening, Carmona is safe for a few more weeks.

Someone at work last night said to me he wonders if the Indians and Reds would consider swapping Fausto Carmona with Edinson Volquez and I couldn't decide whether he has lost his mind or was onto something. What I mean is that the best type of deal the Indians could hope for when dealing Carmona? Project for project? Unless the Indians would settle on a low level arm yet again (which, you know, can never have enough).

All that said, I want Carmona in an Indians uniform, lord willing, in a penant race.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:09 am

GoTribe028 wrote:It's a bit of a gamble either way.

You 'hide' Carmona in the pen and go with anyone from Columbus at the moment. Give Carmona a few more chances to muster up something. Or sever the cord.

Right now he has a little while longer. Acta's comments indicate that IMO. Something along the lines of "this isn't fantasy baseball, we can't just drop him and get someone else". That at least tells me they're not prepared to make a move.

Truth is Carmona has more to offer than anyone in C-bus, and we would get dicked in any trades and we know that. Not like we can deal a project for a need. And having Carmona come out of the pen in non pressure situations isn't going to fix anything. Throwing a few innings here and there wont get Carmona near the level that Carrasco has been at recently or the level of consistency Masterson's shown all season.

Unless the Indians can manipulate a DL stint, which isn't happening, Carmona is safe for a few more weeks.


I'm not sure if I agree with you on the Columbus part. I think McAlister, Gomez, Barnes, and yes, even David Huff are options right now. If there is one deep part of the Indians system right now it's starting pitching.

Every game now is critical now. When a starter consistently messes up, it strains the bullpen too. Our bully as a group has been the best in MLB. The best of the bad options right now are to drop Durbin, and put Carmona in the pen for now. I would even take offers for Carmona at the trade deadline.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:19 am

I'm against simply releasing Fausto or trading him for "whatever you can get". IMO he needs to develop an effective breaking ball because he's throwing 90% fastballs and his fastball is just not good enough to get by on for 7 innings. Last night he failed to strike out a single Rockies hitter. Even his best located fastballs were fouled off. And when he threw the fastball in the middle of the plate to a left-handed hitter it got crushed (see Giambi, Jason). Even a 40-year-old was able to handle it.

So I would put him in the bullpen and release Everett, who really doesn't have a role now that Phelps is here and OCab is the utility. Then I would have Belcher work intensively with Fausto in bullpen sessions on his breaking ball and controlling his fastball. It would be like when they sent him to Arizona for retooling only it would be here and with a major league pitching coach. Let's give Belcher a chance to earn his salary. If that means shutting Fausto down for a couple of weeks or until after the All-Star break, it will be worth it if he gets back to being a guy who can give you 7 innings and allow 3 runs consistently.

It would also give the Tribe a chance to look at Scott Barnes, who has been lights out all year at Columbus, and especially in his last three starts.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:23 am

If the Tribe did move Carmona, I'd try to add a PTBNL which would depend upon how Carmona performed and or a good chunk of cash to sign some of the draftees, anybody think John Farrell would have interest in Toronto (heard they had interest before)???
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:43 am

Carmona is out of options, so if you wanted to send him to C-Bus, you'd have to place him on waivers, and IMO, he'd get picked up.

As far as trading him.. can we really get that much value? I don't believe so. And I don't think McAllister/Gomez/Huff would put up any more of spectacular numbers.

At this point, it's best to just stick the course...
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:03 am

A.Zajac wrote:Carmona is out of options, so if you wanted to send him to C-Bus, you'd have to place him on waivers, and IMO, he'd get picked up.

As far as trading him.. can we really get that much value? I don't believe so. And I don't think McAllister/Gomez/Huff would put up any more of spectacular numbers.

At this point, it's best to just stick the course...


I think you nailed... he would never clear waivers and trading him outright for anything is really out of the question... Well sorta any way...

However going forward.... IF he missed his next start or 2 - wouldn't be that surprising and in fact I hope it happens. You have Gomez, McAllister, Huff and Barnes (in no particular order) pretty much ready for ML action.

How is this for a scenario - come trade time Carmona is dealt as part of the deal for a RH bat. If yr not gonna pick up that option for next season - trade him. Not sure how his contract is structured, but seems to me if it doesn't change much (or at all) if he is traded that might be attractive to a team looking for the "vet" they want for their rotation. His value lies in his contract, and his past performance. Carmona + Prospect(s) = RH bat... I could live with that.
Last edited by criznit2009 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:10 am

At the trade deadline pitching is always at a premium. If Carmona can go to the pen, and pitch in less than critical situations till he gets straightened out, his value could increase. He has never been a consistent pitcher in his career.

Keep this in mind too; exactly where will he be in our rotation 1 year from today? With White and maybe Pom added, Carmona could be our #4 starter.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:45 am

Not really a fan of Gomez or Huff but I'd rather see them give it a go rather than Carmona's melt downs...
McAlister and Barnes are both intriguing... Could see both later in the yr. The tribe certainly has other options and finding a buyer at the deadline wouldn't hurt or be hard. The tribe simply can't afford Carmona's inconsistencies. Nevertheless he's worth the gamble at $7 mil next yr. At some point I think we will see him moved, hopefully once he's regained his form and closer to the deadline.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:18 pm

I'd give him this upcoming road trip to straighten himself out. He'll get 2 starts on it and if he shows no improvement, I think you almost have to move him to the bullpen. Call up Gomez or McAllister (or even Huff).
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:23 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Not really a fan of Gomez or Huff but I'd rather see them give it a go rather than Carmona's melt downs...
McAlister and Barnes are both intriguing... Could see both later in the yr. The tribe certainly has other options and finding a buyer at the deadline wouldn't hurt or be hard. The tribe simply can't afford Carmona's inconsistencies. Nevertheless he's worth the gamble at $7 mil next yr. At some point I think we will see him moved, hopefully once he's regained his form and closer to the deadline.


Who would take Carmona at this point?

A contending team won't want him for the exact same reasons we won't want him. A non-contending team won't want him because of his salary, and at the very least wouldn't be giving anything of value to get him (why would a rebuilding team trade a prospect for a higher-salary vet?). The best you could hope for is a junk-for-junk trade similar to Volquez/Hamilton or Silva/Bradley, but I don't think this team needs a headcase.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:28 pm

Edible14 wrote:Who would take Carmona at this point?

A contending team won't want him for the exact same reasons we won't want him. A non-contending team won't want him because of his salary, and at the very least wouldn't be giving anything of value to get him (why would a rebuilding team trade a prospect for a higher-salary vet?). The best you could hope for is a junk-for-junk trade similar to Volquez/Hamilton or Silva/Bradley, but I don't think this team needs a headcase.


um...how was that a junk-for-junk trade? Hamilton had a very good year for the Reds and Volquez was still pretty highly thought of (and wasn't the only player traded).


I do agree that this team doesn't need a headcase though. Then again....Carmona seems like a headcase (different kind that Bradley though).
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:15 pm

I believe Carmona gets until the All Star break (3-4 more starts) and then if the slide continues, a change will be made.

Only option is to put him in the bullpen as a mop up guy so he can be shut down and work on some things and rebuild his confidence. No way he goes on waivers. Everyone in the league knows he is a young, talented pitcher and that he can maybe be fixed in a new situation or with different coaching. Plus he has such a team friendly contract the next three years that ANY team would consider him as he is not too expensive. A lock he gets picked up if placed on irrevocable waivers.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:45 pm

If Carmona was waived the Pirates would pk him right away. The right circumstances / coaching and Carmona will be back to potential all-star form.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:48 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I believe Carmona gets until the All Star break (3-4 more starts) and then if the slide continues, a change will be made.

Only option is to put him in the bullpen as a mop up guy so he can be shut down and work on some things and rebuild his confidence. No way he goes on waivers. Everyone in the league knows he is a young, talented pitcher and that he can maybe be fixed in a new situation or with different coaching. Plus he has such a team friendly contract the next three years that ANY team would consider him as he is not too expensive. A lock he gets picked up if placed on irrevocable waivers.

Fausto being claimed would be a guarantee.. As Manny said.. "..his stuff was very good.. just lost focus.." Three or four more starts before making a decision sounds logical and consistent with the way the Indians have functioned in the past.. Looking at the schedule.. there are quite a few off days coming up.. Skipping a start or two may not be an impossibility as well..

In the event the Indians make a change (Fausto to the pen), Who do you see the Indians calling up? The results from Huff over his last three starts have been phenomenal, 2 ER over 21 IP in three starts.. JeanMar had a few starts earlier this season and improved from his first miserable outing against then HOT HITTING KC to pretty decent in his last three starts (5 ER in 4.1 IP v KC: 10.38 ERA to 5 ER in his next three starts, combined, over 14 IP: 3.21 ERA), Z-Mac may also be considered. Other than a really bad outing against Louisville, he's been a HORSE. Good choices, all around..

In the three or four starts leading up to the ASB, this is also around the time when the Trading Deadline talk really begins to heat up. That could play into the decision making process, as well....
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:59 pm

I believe this will inevitably lead to Carmona's departure in the future (if he can't regain compsure) either after AllStar break -trade deadline- or during the offseason. I cant see the Tribe just letting him walk, he has too much potential and at only $7 mil next season is inexpensive. The right pitching coach and patience could lead Carmona to becoming the workhorse arm he has potential to be.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:46 pm

My prediction

he gets 2 more starts to bomb. If he bombs them both - he is either DL'd or moved to the pen. Heck if he is terrible in his next outing that might be enough even. One would think the tribe is working to include him as a piece of ANY trade going forward. They could announce a trade any time and I would not be surprised at all.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:51 pm

For now Acta needs to pull the plug on him in a start as soon as the nonsense starts. Trying to work it out in a game - especially when we have a lead - is nonsense.

When he comes unhinged - it must be obvious. Walking the number 9 hitter with two outs to me is - in these circumstances - you are outahere!

That is the guy he should have pitched under hand to before walking.

For now he starts - and leaves quickly if he is out to Mars in his performance.

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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby martyinnewyork » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:08 pm

The old adage applies to Carmona- "buy low, sell high". Right now, Carmona's most attractive feature is his contract, with the option years being almost ideal in management's favor. If placed on waivers he would 100% definitely be gone. As others have said, there are plenty of teams who would be willing to take a chance on Fausto if he was a waiver pick-up. As far as a trade is concerned, the Indians wouldn't get much for him now. But we have to remember that, as maddening as he has been lately, he was an all-star last year and a Cy Young candidate in '07.

We have to ride out the storm and hope he straightens out. I would think he will be in the pen if he has another meltdown or two.

David Huff seems to have figured some things out recently. I think he could surprise us if given the chance. In fact, nost of the Clippers' rotation looks like an improvement over Carmona at this point. But I think we still need to hold on to him.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Tondo » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:44 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:The old adage applies to Carmona- "buy low, sell high". Right now, Carmona's most attractive feature is his contract, with the option years being almost ideal in management's favor. If placed on waivers he would 100% definitely be gone.


That logic is exactly my problem...while you're 100% right that we'd sell very low my point is: what's the bottom line of all those "singular specs value" games? Carmona isn't a commodity in a vacuum. He is 1 of 5 SP of the Indians, who are trying to win something (that's the aim of the game, right?) and he has an unheard of 8 consecutive starts without a QS (big hurdle to W games)...if we were out of the PO race as usual, I'd be in the "stay the course" camp all the way...but this year is different, we're contending. In those years I just won't accept and won't understand playing obviously inferior production though having better options (cant be much worse anyway in this particular case) JUST for the sake of "value" of a certain player...the VALUE is NOW, "IN" THIS season, Carmona and his "value" has to be put, hierarchically, BELOW this higher aim ...I know we're used to think "down the road"/longterm etc and I think that's the "fault" in most posters logic in this

I think everyone would agree that we would have won last nights game with most Columbus SPs, so we already wasted last night's start...we're currently 1game ahead of DET, it's close...

The equation/math probability scenario is this: what's worth more? 1-4 more "probable" Ws replacing Carmona (and Im just talking next 4-6 starts here) OR accepting 1-4 less Ws BUT retaining Carmona (and his "value")...me thinks this AL Central race has the potential to be a close one till the last week and if we end up a couple of games short we will regret having "stayed the course" with an obv toasted Carmona for way too long (imho we already had enough "warnings" to have done smthg about it)....but hey we'd still have Carmona's "value" and assured a great group of SP in AAA for 2012, yay...now my question is: is this what it's all about?

Imho no, you built org depth to be FLEXIBLE IN A SEASON YOU'RE CONTENDING...a SP, who was given 2 months to righten the ship and hasn't done so, has been given enough time. What's all this depth good for if you're not USING it for what it was intended for...to cite a popular phrase: YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME (and Division, League, WS...)
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby indians1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:37 pm

carmona is well on his way to becoming jason johnson. A guy that puts up 200 innings but does nothing to help a team contend.

Carmona had the great 2007 and then the league adjusted. he made a decent comeback last year but has reverted back to the inconsistent pitcher who can't keep his composure.

He is well on is way to having a 3rd season of over 5.00 ERA in the last 4 years. How do you justify that?

I know people don't want to get nothing for him but do we have any other option?

We are in contend mode right now. We are in first place and we can't dilly dally with players especially those that have 5+ years of experience. If he was 24 or 25 and in his 2nd full year, thenmaybe you show more patience. He is making the same mistakes he made 3 and 4 years ago and doesn't have the track record to deserve more time.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:41 pm

I'm saying 2 starts still as that is this next roadtrip. If he can't figure things out by then, I'm not sure throwing him back out in front of the home crowd is the best idea (as a starter)...they can get brutal and will only further hurt his psyche.

Hopefully though he can at least pitch like he did in Detroit these next couple starts and build off it.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:48 pm

Hermie13 wrote:um...how was that a junk-for-junk trade? Hamilton had a very good year for the Reds and Volquez was still pretty highly thought of (and wasn't the only player traded).

I do agree that this team doesn't need a headcase though. Then again....Carmona seems like a headcase (different kind that Bradley though).


It was at the time. Both were high-caliber prospects that weren't reaching their potential and were something of a headache for their teams at the time. That's a case of a junk-for-junk trade working out extremely well for both sides. Whereas the Silva/Bradley trade is the exact opposite.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:59 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:um...how was that a junk-for-junk trade? Hamilton had a very good year for the Reds and Volquez was still pretty highly thought of (and wasn't the only player traded).

I do agree that this team doesn't need a headcase though. Then again....Carmona seems like a headcase (different kind that Bradley though).


It was at the time. Both were high-caliber prospects that weren't reaching their potential and were something of a headache for their teams at the time. That's a case of a junk-for-junk trade working out extremely well for both sides. Whereas the Silva/Bradley trade is the exact opposite.


Sorry but you are dead wrong. Hamilton hit 19 HRs with a .922 OPS as a rookie for the Reds the year before he was dealt. if that is junk, then I'd love to know what word you'd use to describe every player on the Indians right now...

And Hamilton was a great character guy in Cincy. I think you are confusing him with soemone else. They only had him for 1 year in the entire organization and don't recall ever hearing a bad word said (and I was living with a Reds fan at the time, so had to hear about how great he was every frakin day). They traded him because they had depth in the OF with Dunn and Griffey (and Bruce and Stubbs on the way) and needed pitching help in the worst way. Volquez had some arm issues and was a top 100 prospect one year, but hardly a junk guy. Yeah he hadn't reached his potential, but was 23 and really just never got a chance in Texas.

The Hamilton-Volquez deal is way more on par with the Garza-Young deal than a junk deal like Bradley-Silva. though moot point I guess...
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby jellis » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:24 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:um...how was that a junk-for-junk trade? Hamilton had a very good year for the Reds and Volquez was still pretty highly thought of (and wasn't the only player traded).

I do agree that this team doesn't need a headcase though. Then again....Carmona seems like a headcase (different kind that Bradley though).


It was at the time. Both were high-caliber prospects that weren't reaching their potential and were something of a headache for their teams at the time. That's a case of a junk-for-junk trade working out extremely well for both sides. Whereas the Silva/Bradley trade is the exact opposite.


Sorry but you are dead wrong. Hamilton hit 19 HRs with a .922 OPS as a rookie for the Reds the year before he was dealt. if that is junk, then I'd love to know what word you'd use to describe every player on the Indians right now...

And Hamilton was a great character guy in Cincy. I think you are confusing him with soemone else. They only had him for 1 year in the entire organization and don't recall ever hearing a bad word said (and I was living with a Reds fan at the time, so had to hear about how great he was every frakin day). They traded him because they had depth in the OF with Dunn and Griffey (and Bruce and Stubbs on the way) and needed pitching help in the worst way. Volquez had some arm issues and was a top 100 prospect one year, but hardly a junk guy. Yeah he hadn't reached his potential, but was 23 and really just never got a chance in Texas.

The Hamilton-Volquez deal is way more on par with the Garza-Young deal than a junk deal like Bradley-Silva. though moot point I guess...



Hamilton even then showed major issues staying healthy, every reds fan I knew thought they were selling high because he would never stay healthy so there was some wort's, personally I remember telling my friend at the time the Indians should trade Miller for him
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:33 pm

jellis wrote:Hamilton even then showed major issues staying healthy, every reds fan I knew thought they were selling high because he would never stay healthy so there was some wort's, personally I remember telling my friend at the time the Indians should trade Miller for him


An injury risk guy is not the same as "junk" though. Point is, Hamilton's situation is nothing like Carmona's no matter how one spins it.

I recall hearing a few Cliff Lee rumors too with Hamilton (actually wouldn't have been a bad deal in hindsight). As far as your red's fans, not sure why they thought they were selling high on a guy by getting a injury risk pitcher and a near midget reliever in return. And what Red's fans think of him (or what you thought he was worth) really doesn't matter as he wasn't considered a junk guy within baseball (nor was Volquez).
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:13 am

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:Hamilton even then showed major issues staying healthy, every reds fan I knew thought they were selling high because he would never stay healthy so there was some wort's, personally I remember telling my friend at the time the Indians should trade Miller for him


An injury risk guy is not the same as "junk" though. Point is, Hamilton's situation is nothing like Carmona's no matter how one spins it.

I recall hearing a few Cliff Lee rumors too with Hamilton (actually wouldn't have been a bad deal in hindsight). As far as your red's fans, not sure why they thought they were selling high on a guy by getting a injury risk pitcher and a near midget reliever in return. And what Red's fans think of him (or what you thought he was worth) really doesn't matter as he wasn't considered a junk guy within baseball (nor was Volquez).


I'll admit that I am probably mistaken here. I think I may be remembering the "headcase" label from his days with the Rays. That, and the injury prone part Jellis points out. For whatever reason, I remember that trade as being "problematic guy for problematic guy", which... maybe is different than junk-for-junk and perhaps that's not very good posting on my part. In any case, yes... junk for junk doesn't really describe that trade.

That being said, if we're going to be technical about what is and isn't junk... I don't think Carmona strictly fits. He's inconsistent but he has moments of brilliance and can be a very good starting pitcher. He might be the worst-performing pitcher on the Indians now, but there are some rotations out there where he wouldn't really be in jeopardy of losing his spot even if he was the #4/5 guy. The reason he's such a headache here is that he's supposed to be our ace.
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Re: How thin is the ice that Carmona is walking on?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:27 pm

Edible14 wrote:I'll admit that I am probably mistaken here. I think I may be remembering the "headcase" label from his days with the Rays. That, and the injury prone part Jellis points out. For whatever reason, I remember that trade as being "problematic guy for problematic guy", which... maybe is different than junk-for-junk and perhaps that's not very good posting on my part. In any case, yes... junk for junk doesn't really describe that trade.

That being said, if we're going to be technical about what is and isn't junk... I don't think Carmona strictly fits. He's inconsistent but he has moments of brilliance and can be a very good starting pitcher. He might be the worst-performing pitcher on the Indians now, but there are some rotations out there where he wouldn't really be in jeopardy of losing his spot even if he was the #4/5 guy. The reason he's such a headache here is that he's supposed to be our ace.


I suppose it does come down to what you say is 'junk'. I wouldn't necessarily call Carmona junk....but his value is that of a "junk" guy IMO. I assumed that's what you meant, but maybe I was mistaken.

Don't agree with that last statement....even if he was suppose to be our #2 or #3, he'd still be a headcase. He's a headcase because he allows himself to become unnerved way too easily and shows an inability to correct things without coaches holding his hand it seems.
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