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Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:54 pm

Hermie13 wrote:hmm, sure looks like he only had 2 heading into today. Not really sure how that's cherry picking, 2 runs or less in a start is very solid.

And in this day and age, an ERA above 4 is not bad. Hell, a quality start is an ERA of 4.5. Talbot is not the guy we need to be worried about right now in the rotation. Obviously an ERA of 4.91 is not good, nor is averaging less than 6 innings a start, but compared to Carmona, he's fine.

Failing to go 5 innings is never "very solid", whether you only give up 2 runs or not... and anything less than 6 innings is not a quality start. So two of the three starts in which he allowed 2 runs were still, by definition, not quality starts. However, tonight's start was, so that's 4 in 8 starts (although personally, I have no complaints about 2 ER in 5.2 IP vs. the Yankees).

Talbot is fine as a #5 starter... if you have a few Talbots in your rotation, your bullpen is going to burn out in a hurry, but he does well enough to not leave you scrambling for alternatives (which is what a lot of teams have as a #5). I hope they have better options ready by the end of the year, but replacing what was expected of Carmona is a much bigger priority.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:56 pm

I do not believe it! I was about to ask why T Buck was here.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:56 pm

Atta boy Travis Buck!

Nobody on this board ever doubted you, ever.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:03 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:hmm, sure looks like he only had 2 heading into today. Not really sure how that's cherry picking, 2 runs or less in a start is very solid.

And in this day and age, an ERA above 4 is not bad. Hell, a quality start is an ERA of 4.5. Talbot is not the guy we need to be worried about right now in the rotation. Obviously an ERA of 4.91 is not good, nor is averaging less than 6 innings a start, but compared to Carmona, he's fine.

Failing to go 5 innings is never "very solid", whether you only give up 2 runs or not... and anything less than 6 innings is not a quality start. So two of the three starts in which he allowed 2 runs were still, by definition, not quality starts. However, tonight's start was, so that's 4 in 8 starts (although personally, I have no complaints about 2 ER in 5.2 IP vs. the Yankees).

Talbot is fine as a #5 starter... if you have a few Talbots in your rotation, your bullpen is going to burn out in a hurry, but he does well enough to not leave you scrambling for alternatives (which is what a lot of teams have as a #5). I hope they have better options ready by the end of the year, but replacing what was expected of Carmona is a much bigger priority.


5.2 and 2 runs against the Yanks is very solid. I'll give you that 4.2 outing...then again, as i said, we were still in the game, which is really all you would expect from the guys in AAA IMO.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:04 pm

I'm starting to lose count how many times I've said this... but bringing Chris Perez in with a non-save situation just doesn't end well.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:06 pm

I still rather send Buck down - give me EZ or Duncan.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Bearcatbob » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:18 pm

Looks to me like Phelps is here to stay.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:23 pm

Wake me up when Austin Kearns isn't in Cleveland anymore.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:23 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I'm starting to lose count how many times I've said this... but bringing Chris Perez in with a non-save situation just doesn't end well.


If you can't being in your closer (who is suppose to be your best reliever) into a tie game in the 9th inning, then he doesn't belong in the closer's role.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:24 pm

Kearns has to be first to go before Buck.

The guy is just toast.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:26 pm

Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:27 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.


Really don't see why we need EZ. he'd be on the bench 6 days a week.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:43 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.


Really don't see why we need EZ. he'd be on the bench 6 days a week.


He is an ideal bench OF guy. Sure you want to develop him, but trying to win says he is a much better option to sit on the bench then Travis Buck.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:45 pm

A.Zajac wrote:I'm starting to lose count how many times I've said this... but bringing Chris Perez in with a non-save situation just doesn't end well.


I wish Acta would have brought in Pestano there. You want a guy that will lockdown the opposing team for an inning? Pestano is that guy. Your closer isn't always your best reliever (see: Borowski, Joe), and that's a good thing. Closing is all about mentality, but in all honesty coming in when there's nobody on base with a lead is the easier part of relief work IMO. Perez is a good closer. I'd argue Pestano is the better reliever, and they're both in the role they ought to be in. But tonight was a situation where you go to your best guy. I guess Acta thinks it's Perez. I would disagree.

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Kearns has to be first to go before Buck.

The guy is just toast.


He needs to be released yesterday. In all honesty, he's not even an offensive upgrade over Adam Everett if all you're looking for is a base hit.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:08 pm

Disappointing loss...

Talbot battled during his time.. a few of his pitches caught too much of the plate and the Indians paid for it. Santana put some nice swings on the ball.. PRONK should stay on the basepath and not be removed for a pinch runner. It's not like Everett is going to steal a base & he's certainly not a speed merchant... Nice fight to get back to even at 3-3.. Perez in a non-save situation just doesn't work.. Helluvan at bat for Cord with the double/triple with the slip to give the Indians a chance.. IF PRONK was still in the game.. he would have been AB in Kearns' spot. Kearns is pretty useless.

Well..salvaging one game of the series has to be the goal.. fill the house up...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:11 pm

criznit2009 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.


Really don't see why we need EZ. he'd be on the bench 6 days a week.


He is an ideal bench OF guy. Sure you want to develop him, but trying to win says he is a much better option to sit on the bench then Travis Buck.


Meh, I disagree. Carrera's best attribute is his defense. We have Choo, Sizemore, and Brantley who are all capable outfielders and Buck is no bum in LF. Carrera's next attribute is his speed....which doesn't really do anything for Sizemore, Brantley or Choo (unless you actually think Acta would pinch run Sizemore with Carrera?).

Really only thing Carrera would bring is a better pinch runner than say a guy like Everett.

buck has some power, which the Tribe needs more of IMO
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:15 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Disappointing loss...

Talbot battled during his time.. a few of his pitches caught too much of the plate and the Indians paid for it. Santana put some nice swings on the ball.. PRONK should stay on the basepath and not be removed for a pinch runner. It's not like Everett is going to steal a base & he's certainly not a speed merchant... Nice fight to get back to even at 3-3.. Perez in a non-save situation just doesn't work.. Helluvan at bat for Cord with the double/triple with the slip to give the Indians a chance.. IF PRONK was still in the game.. he would have been AB in Kearns' spot. Kearns is pretty useless.

Well..salvaging one game of the series has to be the goal.. fill the house up...


Disagree here. I liked that move. With Choo and Santana up you had a chance that one would find a gap. Hafner likely doesn't score on a double but Everett does (we saw hafner's wheels earlier in the game). Obviously Everett wasn't going to steal as their was a runner on 2B. Everett was there to try and get an extra bag on a hit. Smart move by Acta, choo/Santana didn't come thru. you can't wait back and hope that Hafner is going to come up again in the bottom of the 9th.

Only good argument IMO here would have been to wait til Hafner got to 2nd base to pinch run him (after the Buck hit)...but I like Acta's aggressiveness there.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:16 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.


I don't see what Goedert has done to earn a call up. He's batting 227 right now.

I would have really like the Tribe to call the Diamondbacks about Willy Mo Pena. They just purchased his contract from AAA and has already hit a home run in his first game today. He's basically Austin Kearns only with potential. He was flat out tearing up the baseball in AAA.

EZ would be a nice addition but I think I prefer Valbuena because he can play the infield as well. Also, let's not forget Jason Donald. The infield is pretty loaded, but I think the team is going to have to go outside of the organization for a right-handed bat. And soon, PLEASE!
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby indians1 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:19 pm

i say we call up lonnie chisenhall. even though he is hitting only .250, he's got one of the nicest swings in baseball.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:25 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Kearns has to go, call up Goedert and EZ - send down Buck.


I don't see what Goedert has done to earn a call up. He's batting 227 right now.

I would have really like the Tribe to call the Diamondbacks about Willy Mo Pena. They just purchased his contract from AAA and has already hit a home run in his first game today. He's basically Austin Kearns only with potential. He was flat out tearing up the baseball in AAA.

EZ would be a nice addition but I think I prefer Valbuena because he can play the infield as well. Also, let's not forget Jason Donald. The infield is pretty loaded, but I think the team is going to have to go outside of the organization for a right-handed bat. And soon, PLEASE!


I'd offer them Shelley Duncan for Pena....and that's it. Yeah he's been tearing up the PCL....then again, Buck has an OPS over 1.000 in AAA too. Duncan hit 30 HRs in AAA at the age of 29 too. Pena isn't the answer to our problems offensively. He'd be a decent bench bat....but he has DHed more than he's been in the OF in AAA. Doesn't seem like that big an improvement over a guy like Duncan to me both offensively and defensively, or at least not enough to make any real difference. In any case, not a guy you trade anything of value for.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:38 pm

indians1 wrote:i say we call up lonnie chisenhall. even though he is hitting only .250, he's got one of the nicest swings in baseball.


Chisenhall isn't even close to ready and would do little to no help for this team right now.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby indians1 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:49 am

i was kidding about calling up chisenhall. So many on this board rave about how chisenhall is going to be a star and that scouts love his swing. Yet his production doesn't match the hype.

The answer is we really don't have one. Other than jason kipnis, we have no other hitting prospects. Nick Weglarz is either injuried or inconsistent.

The indians need to start producing some offensive impact players if they want to win consistently.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby timdav » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:29 am

Back in February in my office, we all guessed how many wins the 2011 Tribe would get.

I guessed about 80...which would be a nice gain from 2010's 69 wins.

Though obviously the long term goal is a World Series Championship, and most certainly this team is a work in progress with some obvious holes....and for sure to lose is frustrating....but there's reason for encouragement.

Do they need to get better at the big league level and in their minor league organization (both with players & coaching/development/teaching skills)? Absolutely!

However...I think they're on the right track.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:36 am

Talbot has given up 57 hits in 44 innings. Opposing batters are hitting .320 off him. Lefties are hitting .419. His ERA is 5.02 and he's averaging 5.5 innings per start.

I don't see how you can defend that performance. How can any starting pitcher be successful when lefties are hitting .419 off him?
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:03 am

For the love of all that is holy, get Kearns out of here now. Did anyone REALLY think when he came to the plate last night that the result would be any different. Freaking June 22nd and the guy is hitting .195 with no homers and 2 RBI and a .571 OPS. 29 Ks in 82 at bats (1 K every 2.8 AB). Enough already. I do not get why they keep him around. Almost ANYTHING in Columbus is better. Cripes.

There is some serious fat to trim off the edges of this roster with the likes of Kearns/Everett on the bench, Carmona/Talbot in the rotation, and Herrmann/Durbin in the pen.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Chip Davis » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:26 am

When Kearns came out of the dugout I just sat back and put my hands over my head in disapointment. Kearns and Everett need to go. They have nothing to offer that can't be given by younger, more talented players who need to be challenged.

For the comments on Chisenhall. No need to rush him as long as Hafner, Choo, Santana, and Sizemore are sparking the offense. Hannahan can't be replaced defensively and his bat can be hidden with the afformentioned performing. With that said I wouldn't get to down on Chiz's bat. The kid can hit, has always hit and is just experiencing a rough patch. Patience with the youngsters is my opinion.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:19 am

TonyIPI wrote:For the love of all that is holy, get Kearns out of here now. Did anyone REALLY think when he came to the plate last night that the result would be any different. Freaking June 22nd and the guy is hitting .195 with no homers and 2 RBI and a .571 OPS. 29 Ks in 82 at bats (1 K every 2.8 AB). Enough already. I do not get why they keep him around. Almost ANYTHING in Columbus is better. Cripes.

There is some serious fat to trim off the edges of this roster with the likes of Kearns/Everett on the bench, Carmona/Talbot in the rotation, and Herrmann/Durbin in the pen.


Agreed on all points, save one. Herrmann and Durbin have actually pitched quite well lately, and I'm not entirely convinced they need to be let go. As much as I'd like to see Judy get up here (Putnam too), I think they can wait for injuries or for Herrman and Durbin to start sucking again. No need to mess with the bullpen mafia right now.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:12 pm

Herrmann has only given up one earned run in his last 8 appearances covering 12.2 innings. I'd stay with him a while longer.

Durbin has given up 10 ER's in only 8.2 innings in June. He needs to go. I can't believe they gave this guy a million bucks and I said so the day after they signed him.

Josh Judy's last 10 games: 11.2 innings, 2 ER's, 18 K's. I think he could slide right in to Durbin's spot.

The other alternative is to put Carmona in Durbin's spot and bring up Gomez or McAllister. But the Indians are saying they may have found a problem with Carmona's delivery out of the stretch, so let's give him a couple of more starts to see if that's the problem and if it's fixable.

Kearns is toast and Buck is hitting .161 in June, which includes a 0-for-22 streak which ended last night on a routine ground ball which found a hole.

I just don't know who to replace Kearns and Buck with. Valbuena has played some left field, but he's hitting .235 over his last ten games. I guess I'd dump Kearns and bring Shelly Duncan back.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Talbot has given up 57 hits in 44 innings. Opposing batters are hitting .320 off him. Lefties are hitting .419. His ERA is 5.02 and he's averaging 5.5 innings per start.

I don't see how you can defend that performance. How can any starting pitcher be successful when lefties are hitting .419 off him?


His ERA is actually 4.91 (albeit not much better)....which is identical to Gomez' ERA in the bigs this year (their WHIPs are nearly identical too). I just see any AAA guy as a sideways move in place of Talbot.

Talbot is a pitch to contact guy, but he has for the most part gotten the job done and kept the team in the game (which is te #1 thing for a #5 starter), minus his two bad starts (and as we've seen, everyone has a bad start or two).
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:51 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Herrmann has only given up one earned run in his last 8 appearances covering 12.2 innings. I'd stay with him a while longer.

Durbin has given up 10 ER's in only 8.2 innings in June. He needs to go. I can't believe they gave this guy a million bucks and I said so the day after they signed him.

Josh Judy's last 10 games: 11.2 innings, 2 ER's, 18 K's. I think he could slide right in to Durbin's spot.

The other alternative is to put Carmona in Durbin's spot and bring up Gomez or McAllister. But the Indians are saying they may have found a problem with Carmona's delivery out of the stretch, so let's give him a couple of more starts to see if that's the problem and if it's fixable.

Kearns is toast and Buck is hitting .161 in June, which includes a 0-for-22 streak which ended last night on a routine ground ball which found a hole.

I just don't know who to replace Kearns and Buck with. Valbuena has played some left field, but he's hitting .235 over his last ten games. I guess I'd dump Kearns and bring Shelly Duncan back.



Well in fairness we didn't give Durbin a million...only $800K, or about the same as Jensen Lewis and less than $400K more than the league minimum.

Durbin has been knocked around, but really hasn't been much worse than he was last year when he was pitching for the 1st place Phillies. His hit rate is up (a lot), but his HR rate is identical, his K-rate is nearly identical, his walk rate is identical, and his K/BB rate is identical.

He's your average 6th/7th guy. Had 2 terrible outings in NY but take those out and he's been every bit as good as Hermann the last 6 weeks (though nothing special admittedly).

Wouldn't be upset with letting him go, but not a problem for this team right now IMO.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:49 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Talbot has given up 57 hits in 44 innings. Opposing batters are hitting .320 off him. Lefties are hitting .419. His ERA is 5.02 and he's averaging 5.5 innings per start.

I don't see how you can defend that performance. How can any starting pitcher be successful when lefties are hitting .419 off him?


His ERA is actually 4.91 (albeit not much better)....which is identical to Gomez' ERA in the bigs this year (their WHIPs are nearly identical too). I just see any AAA guy as a sideways move in place of Talbot.

Talbot is a pitch to contact guy, but he has for the most part gotten the job done and kept the team in the game (which is te #1 thing for a #5 starter), minus his two bad starts (and as we've seen, everyone has a bad start or two).


Well, he has given up between 1-3 runs in four of his last five starts, so it's true he has kept the team in the game "for the most part." I guess if he gets rocked occasionally and goes 5-6 innings giving up 2-3 runs the rest of the time that's OK for a back-of-the-rotation starter. He's lucky Alex White got hurt or he would not be in the rotation IMO.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:57 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Talbot has given up 57 hits in 44 innings. Opposing batters are hitting .320 off him. Lefties are hitting .419. His ERA is 5.02 and he's averaging 5.5 innings per start.

I don't see how you can defend that performance. How can any starting pitcher be successful when lefties are hitting .419 off him?


His ERA is actually 4.91 (albeit not much better)....which is identical to Gomez' ERA in the bigs this year (their WHIPs are nearly identical too). I just see any AAA guy as a sideways move in place of Talbot.

Talbot is a pitch to contact guy, but he has for the most part gotten the job done and kept the team in the game (which is te #1 thing for a #5 starter), minus his two bad starts (and as we've seen, everyone has a bad start or two).


Well, he has given up between 1-3 runs in four of his last five starts, so it's true he has kept the team in the game "for the most part." I guess if he gets rocked occasionally and goes 5-6 innings giving up 2-3 runs the rest of the time that's OK for a back-of-the-rotation starter. He's lucky Alex White got hurt or he would not be in the rotation IMO.
Yes, agree with this and with the healthy White comment.. Talbot would be in the Durbin role.. and be ready for a spot start or two. The indians will have a double header or two going into the second half of the season (make up for the M's semi-annual weather disaster). So there will be some starts out there...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:42 pm

OCab just cant take a walk....lazy fly ball on a 3-0 count. A sub .300 OBP MIF with no pop and avg speed is a bad MLB-backup at best imho...I'd rather see Donald up here, he can easily produce OCab's numbers...and that's his worst case floor imho...he has some upside, OCab hasnt any, in fact he's regressing...and his AVG career numbers weren't any good to begin with

Guess I'll never get the Indians fascination with declining, fringe (and more expensive) MLB-vets clogging up the system
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:39 pm

Tondo wrote:OCab just cant take a walk....lazy fly ball on a 3-0 count. A sub .300 OBP MIF with no pop and avg speed is a bad MLB-backup at best imho...I'd rather see Donald up here, he can easily produce OCab's numbers...and that's his worst case floor imho...he has some upside, OCab hasnt any, in fact he's regressing...and his AVG career numbers weren't any good to begin with

Guess I'll never get the Indians fascination with declining, fringe (and more expensive) MLB-vets clogging up the system


Was a 3-1 count in all fairness. Agree though that he can't walk.

While you can argue his bat (and I guess his glove), fans underrate the significance of a vet presence on a young club (and the guy is making less than $600K more than donald would)

Wouldn't be opposed to Donald up though.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:59 pm

Donald joining the club is just a waiting game. Prolly will take Everetts spot, unless Phelps really struggles, and that doesn't look like its happening.. Could take Ocabs spot but really doubt that. Really Everett and Kearns are 2 guys hanging by a thread, and a healthy Donald will no doubt be in Cleveland.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 pm

Insert obligatory Vinnie Pestano is awesome post.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:30 pm

I thought Acta would pinch hit Brantley for OCab with two on and leading by a run in the 9th. Right-hander on the mound and OCab can't hit righties to save his life. Already 0-for-3 against Hammel. Brantley hits for OCab and Everett comes in to play 3rd in the bottom of the 9th. You're getting a better hitter and also improving the defense. But no Brantley. OCab stays and makes his out, as usual. For a National League manager, Acta wasn't thinking there.

Even if the Rockies bring in a lefty to face Brantley it's still a better matchup than OCab against any right-handed pitcher. On top of that OCab apparently missed the hit-and-run sign which got Santana thrown out stealing and he also let a ground ball go under his glove that Hannahan could have handled blindfolded. Not a great game for Orly. He's looking older by the week. To be fair, he's been a shortstop his whole career and this year is asked to play 2nd and 3rd.

Great to see Choo line a fastball off the wall with a lefty pitching. He also lined to second earlier. You can see his bat is coming around. And Pronk - Wow! Now we just need to get Grady going. Fields is reportedly working with him on hitting the ball up the middle. It's a work in progress.

Yes, I'm in favor of using Pestano in the top of the 9th if the score is tied. Perez just isn't the same pitcher in non-save situations. Pestano, OTOH, is the same pitcher all the time. He goes right after the hitters and challenges them to hit the fastball. So far they're not hitting it even though it's only 92-93 mph. Must have some mad movement.

Next time we play the Rockies, let's pitch Wiggy down and away, shall we?

Typical outing for Tomlin - 6 innings, 3 runs, all via the home run. With 9 wins in 73 games he has an outside shot at 20. As Cee Lo Green said, "Ain't that some shit?"
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:47 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I thought Acta would pinch hit Brantley for OCab with two on and leading by a run in the 9th. Right-hander on the mound and OCab can't hit righties to save his life. Already 0-for-3 against Hammel. Brantley hits for OCab and Everett comes in to play 3rd in the bottom of the 9th. You're getting a better hitter and also improving the defense. But no Brantley. OCab stays and makes his out, as usual. For a National League manager, Acta wasn't thinking there.

Even if the Rockies bring in a lefty to face Brantley it's still a better matchup than OCab against any right-handed pitcher. On top of that OCab apparently missed the hit-and-run sign which got Santana thrown out stealing and he also let a ground ball go under his glove that Hannahan could have handled blindfolded. Not a great game for Orly. He's looking older by the week. To be fair, he's been a shortstop his whole career and this year is asked to play 2nd and 3rd.

Great to see Choo line a fastball off the wall with a lefty pitching. He also lined to second earlier. You can see his bat is coming around. And Pronk - Wow! Now we just need to get Grady going. Fields is reportedly working with him on hitting the ball up the middle. It's a work in progress.

Yes, I'm in favor of using Pestano in the top of the 9th if the score is tied. Perez just isn't the same pitcher in non-save situations. Pestano, OTOH, is the same pitcher all the time. He goes right after the hitters and challenges them to hit the fastball. So far they're not hitting it even though it's only 92-93 mph. Must have some mad movement.

Next time we play the Rockies, let's pitch Wiggy down and away, shall we?

Typical outing for Tomlin - 6 innings, 3 runs, all via the home run. With 9 wins in 73 games he has an outside shot at 20. As Cee Lo Green said, "Ain't that some shit?"


By the time OCabrera hit the team had already subbed in Marson, moved Santana to 1st, and Hannahan to 3rd. If they pinch hit Brantley for Cabrera they would have had Everett playing 2nd, not 3rd - for what it's worth. I just don't know if it's worth burning your entire bench (unless you count Austin Kearns) in a 1 run game. Pretty nitpicky if you ask me. Plus, I'm not as mad because maybe now it's starting to get implanted into their heads that Cabrera shouldn't face a righty, ever.

Alot of Pestano's effectiveness with his fastball is because of his funky delivery. The guys on the radio were talking about how he cocks it back to his ear, or something along those lines, which makes a 93 MPH fastball seem more like a 96 MPH one. Either way, he's awesome.

I would say there is a good chance of a roster move upcoming. As hot as Hafner has been hitting, needing to pinch-hit him 9 times (in 9 games) the team will probably need an extra position player and/or pinch runner. My money is on Jason Donald although Valbuena has been deserving as well. Not to mention Chiz going freaking beast mode tonight in his return.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:53 pm

Nice series overall...should have won the 1st game and 2-1 but oh well, still 1game ahead of DET :good:

Don't know why, but I feel "safest" with Tomlin on the mound, much safer than Masterson who's outings are still somewhat "shaky", starting to get the same "safe" feeling with Carrasco though...but imho Tomlin's been the steadiest of all our SP, by far the best WHIP of all, obv the long ball is his problem but he seems to allow them when he has a cushion most of the time, thus his high Ws...such a great spec success story so far and I have a very good feeling that he will stick as an overachieving, intelligent MOR-SP...Pestano is somewhat the RP-version of Tomlin...both will be Indians for the forseeable future..and I like it

That said....it's time to replace OCab with Kipnis and Everett with Donald and Kearns with whoever (preferably ECarrera), and no problem to get rid of Buck for Valbuena/Huffman/Head ...doubt we will do it because of the "vet-presence" fairy tale (cant ACab, Hafner, Sizemore, Hannahan take on that role?) but that's what common, bottom line baseball logic would dictate....on the pitcing side, Carmona and Durbin with 1 of Gomez, Huff, McAllister, Barnes and Judy

We can build for the future (getting specs wet) AND still win (upgrade production or at least as "good") imho...just do it
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:12 pm

Donalds ETA is the real question.. And EZ is a better option than Buck at this point too. Keep playing Phelps everyday, give Ocab a little 3B time...
McAllister has gone from knocking on the door to kicking it so he is an option in waiting, which is a very nice thing to have. Gomez, Huff and even Barnes (yes Barnes if he keep destroying - in a month or so) are all nice options.
Wrong thread but, I am really starting to think the lack of lefty in the rotation is part of the problem for Carmona and even Masterson. Coming in to face the tribe for four games, by the end you have just faced yr 4th to 6+ RH starter in row. A solid lefty in the rotation would do a lot to bolster the entire team.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:50 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Donalds ETA is the real question.. And EZ is a better option than Buck at this point too. Keep playing Phelps everyday, give Ocab a little 3B time.


I don't get this. Why is playing Ocab at 3rd preferable to playing Phelps at 3rd? Phelps has at least some experience there and might need to play it in the future.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:57 pm

criznit2009 wrote:Donalds ETA is the real question.. And EZ is a better option than Buck at this point too. Keep playing Phelps everyday, give Ocab a little 3B time...
McAllister has gone from knocking on the door to kicking it so he is an option in waiting, which is a very nice thing to have. Gomez, Huff and even Barnes (yes Barnes if he keep destroying - in a month or so) are all nice options.
Wrong thread but, I am really starting to think the lack of lefty in the rotation is part of the problem for Carmona and even Masterson. Coming in to face the tribe for four games, by the end you have just faced yr 4th to 6+ RH starter in row. A solid lefty in the rotation would do a lot to bolster the entire team.


I think the lack of run support has been way, way, way more detrimental to Masterson than a lack of a lefty starter (and in reality, a 4.15 ERA in his last 8 starts is not bad). Starters probably feel they have to be like Carrasco and pitch a shutout every time out or they will lose.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:03 am

Tondo wrote:Nice series overall...should have won the 1st game and 2-1 but oh well, still 1game ahead of DET :good:

Don't know why, but I feel "safest" with Tomlin on the mound, much safer than Masterson who's outings are still somewhat "shaky", starting to get the same "safe" feeling with Carrasco though...but imho Tomlin's been the steadiest of all our SP, by far the best WHIP of all, obv the long ball is his problem but he seems to allow them when he has a cushion most of the time, thus his high Ws...such a great spec success story so far and I have a very good feeling that he will stick as an overachieving, intelligent MOR-SP...Pestano is somewhat the RP-version of Tomlin...both will be Indians for the forseeable future..and I like it

That said....it's time to replace OCab with Kipnis and Everett with Donald and Kearns with whoever (preferably ECarrera), and no problem to get rid of Buck for Valbuena/Huffman/Head ...doubt we will do it because of the "vet-presence" fairy tale (cant ACab, Hafner, Sizemore, Hannahan take on that role?) but that's what common, bottom line baseball logic would dictate....on the pitcing side, Carmona and Durbin with 1 of Gomez, Huff, McAllister, Barnes and Judy

We can build for the future (getting specs wet) AND still win (upgrade production or at least as "good") imho...just do it


Don't see what Kipnis in for OCab does and what Donald in for Everett really gets you. Phelps isn't playing 3B, Acta has made that pretty clear. Kipnis shouldn't be on the bench. And in your scenario Donald almost never plays (not good).

I could see donald for Everett soon (then split time at 3B with hannahan).


And you can call it a vet presence fairy tail but most teams follow it and it tends to work.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:18 am

Edible14 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote:Donalds ETA is the real question.. And EZ is a better option than Buck at this point too. Keep playing Phelps everyday, give Ocab a little 3B time.


I don't get this. Why is playing Ocab at 3rd preferable to playing Phelps at 3rd? Phelps has at least some experience there and might need to play it in the future.



I agree, I rather see Phelps get looks at 3rd but Manny seemings to be trying Ocab there 1st. Looks like Acta doesn't trust Phelps defense even at 2nd right now.. Besides Donald isn't to far out now.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:59 am

criznit2009 wrote: Looks like Acta doesn't trust Phelps defense even at 2nd right now..


Exactly. Twice now he's removed Phelps for Cabrera as a defensive replacement at 2B late in a game.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:18 am

Hermie13 wrote:
criznit2009 wrote: Looks like Acta doesn't trust Phelps defense even at 2nd right now..


Exactly. Twice now he's removed Phelps for Cabrera as a defensive replacement at 2B late in a game.


Well he already has 2 errors in what, 7 games?

Plus, it probably keeps Orlando from feeling neglected. Trying to keep everyone happy and important. :angel:
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Chip Davis » Thu Jun 23, 2011 5:34 am

Does anybody else think that Buck could be a good ball player if given the chance to play regularly and healthy? He plays descent defense and has a nice stroke with some pop. He was also a top pick in the not to disant past. Thoughts?
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:36 am

I'm not a huge Buck fan...he wastes too many ABs for my liking, same goes for OCab. I like the line of patient bats the Indians have developed (Santana, Choo, Brantley, Phelps, Weglarz etc)...so maybe Im biased but I hate hitters that produce easy outs on a struggling pitcher (get themsleves out) and I've seen my fair share of those with Buck and OCab...guys like Choo and Santana had better ABs in their rough stretches, even when they were struggling

The bottom line results are pretty bad too, so my "eye" evaluation isn't far off...he doesnt have any tools he makes up for as his power is pretty AVG at best, haven't payed much attention to his D play, which overall means he's been ok but I remember a bad route in this Rockies series..but it's LF, so ok D doesn't make up for lack of a bat...he simply doesn't get on base or slug enough to warrant an everyday job at a corner position..in my view he's expendable and has wasted his chance as Tony tweeted...I'd get Carrera in here and start him in CF once or twice a week, when Hafner or Sizemore get their days off and Brantley LF...Carrera would come in almost on every game due to his speed and bunting ability...esp for this NL series Carrera for Buck makes sense imho...but I'd get rid of Kearns before him but that's still not a compliment to Buck

So no, no way I'd give him everyday ABs on a contending team...I dont even want him as our 4th OF
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby hoof32 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:42 am

I think Buck deserves a chance, yeah. I'm sure I'm in the minority on that one.

Lots of people want to give up on players before they've had a chance to get their feet wet. Two examples: Michael Brantley was up and down the past couple years, trying to find his place. He progressed relatively quickly.

The other example is Brandon Phillips, who might be a very good 2B, but I'm not really sorry he washed out here, he seems arrogant and something of a hot dog, also, seemed to have anger issues... but I could be wrong about all them things.

Anyway, Travis Buck deserves at least a hundred AB's to see if he's got it goin' on, I'd say.

~ ~ ~

Another guy thrown under the bus is Matt LaPorta, jeez, he's got maybe 1500 pro AB's (minors included) and people are saying he sucks 'cos he's at .250?

Let the guy play. Give Matt a chance, for god's sake... What is he, 26?

I'm so not down with giving 1B to Nick Johnson, come on!! Stick with the program. :clapping:
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:47 am

Buck will never be a regular as long as Choo, Sizemore, and Brantley are healthy. You're not going to play him ahead of Hafner at DH or LaPorta at 1B.

With LaPorta out, maybe he could play first base so Hannahan could stay at 3rd, which is a better defensive setup than putting OCab at 3B and Hanny at 1st, plus Buck will hit better than OCab.

His role is to play LF against a right-handed pitcher when Grady gets a day off. And pinch hit for Marson when he catches. That's about it, unless there's an injury to an outfielder.
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