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Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

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Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:03 pm

Entering the series...
Indians: 39-31, 1st place in AL Central with a 1 game lead. 23-12 at home. 5-5 in last 10.
Rockies: 35-36, 3rd place in NL West, 3½ GB the Giants. 16-17 on the road. 6-4 in last 10.
...The Indians reclaimed 1st place over the weekend with a 3-game sweep of the Pirates, while the Rockies helped them out, taking 2 of 3 from the Tigers. At 6-0, Cleveland is the only team that hasn't lost an interleague game, and they have the best home record in the AL. The Rockies are just 18-26 since ending April with a 17-8 record. They've been stuck in 3rd place in the NL West since May 25th.

Monday, 7:05 ET
Fausto Carmona, RHP (4-8, 5.79 ERA) vs. Juan Nicasio, RHP (2-1, 3.38 ERA)

Carmona is coming off his first victory in six weeks, despite being hurt by a shaky defense against Detroit, so he pitched better than his 5 innings, 4 ER line would indicate. Still, he's allowed at least 4 ER in 7 straight starts, and is worst in the AL in losses and ERA. • Nicasio is a 24-yr-old rookie who's made a quality start in 3 of his 4 MLB appearances. His last time out he achieved a personal high 9 strikeouts while allowing 2 ER in 6 innings to pick up a win over the Padres. Nicasio didn't sign until 19 and just made his AA debut in April, but made the jump from there after just 9 starts. His MLB fastball has averaged 94 mph, but there are rumors he's hit 100 in the past. Scouting reports credit him with a good curve ball and a slurvy slider, but Fangraphs is recording it all as a slider that averages 82 mph. He'll also mix in a change-up.

Tuesday, 7:05 ET
Mitch Talbot, RHP (2-4, 5.02) vs. Jhoulys Chacin, RHP (8-4, 2.81 ERA)

In Talbot's 5 starts since returning from the DL with a sore elbow, he's averaged just 5 innings. He's allowed 6 home runs over his past 3 starts, and with lefties hitting .419 against him, the key will be working his way through Carlos Gonzalez, Todd Helton and Jason Giambi. • With Ubaldo Jimenez off to a rough start, the 23-yr-old Chacin has stepped up as the Rockies top starter. He is 6th in the NL in ERA, and 2nd in BAA (.196) and ERA+ (161). In his 3 June starts, he's only been scored on twice -- both solo home runs -- winning all 3 with a 0.90 ERA while holding opponents to .147/.237/.279. His fastball only averages 90.7 mph, but it sets up a steady diet of breaking balls -- 19.4% sliders and 13.5% curves -- along with his change-up.

Wednesday, 7:05 ET
Josh Tomlin, RHP (8-4, 3.93 ERA) vs. Jason Hammel, RHP (4-6, 4.00 ERA)

Tomlin allowed 1 ER in 6.2 ip, making it his first quality start since defeating Cincinnati on May 21st. Those two starts make him 2-0 with a 1.36 ERA and .188 BAA in interleague play. On the season, right-handers are struggling at .219/.234/.381 vs. Tomlin. • Hammel is the only Rockies starter the Indians have faced before, with an 0-2 record and 6.27 ERA in 18.2 ip. Current Tribe hitters are 11-for-37 (.297) against him. Hammel ended a personal 5 game losing streak his last time out, despite allowing 6 ER in 6.1 ip against the Tigers. He's posting reverse splits this season with a .642 ops v. LH and .793 ops v. RH.

NOTES:
• Monday will be Bruce Fields' first game with the Indians as their new hitting coach.
• The Indians bullpen is working on 22.2 consecutive scoreless innings.
• In his past 5 games, Shin-Soo Choo is 7-for-16 with 6 walks and 1 strikeout.
• Carlos Santana went 5-for-10 vs. Pittsburgh with 2 home runs. The Pirates also doubled his season total of intentional walks by giving him two free passes Sunday.
• The Rockies are one of the few NL teams with an obvious DH -- 40-yr-old, defensively-challenged Jason Giambi. Of Giambi's 12 hits this season, 6 are home runs... but 5 of them came in May when he only had 6 hits the entire month.
• On June 6th, manager Jim Tracy put struggling Carlos Gonzalez in the lead-off spot. Since then he's hit .357/.393/.571 in 56 at-bats, including an 11-game hitting streak that ended Sunday.
• Charles Blackmon has been an improvement for the Rockies over struggling and injured (abdominal strain) CF Dexter Fowler. Blackmon has just 1 xbh and 1 walk in 46 PA, but he's hitting .378 with 5 sb.
• Todd Helton has rediscovered the long ball. His .197 isolated power is his highest since 2005.

These two teams have not met since 2008. The Rockies lead the series all-time at 8-7, but are 1-5 in Cleveland.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:20 pm

Less relevant notes:
• The Rockies added backup catcher Matt Pagnozzi to the roster Friday. This is the second time this month the Indians will face a second-generation MLB catcher who can't hit any better than his father (having also faced the Twins Drew Butera).
• On a personal note, I've always rooted for Jason Hammel since he's the only player in MLB history with my last name (no relation)... so maybe win this one off the bullpen!
• Jim Tracy is an Ohio native, and played baseball at Marietta College -- home of the current and only 5-time D3 World Series champions... and also my alma mater.
• As vacation season starts to kick in, my attendance around here will get a little spotty... I may or may not find time to post the preview for the next series.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:50 pm

Great job. Your previews belong in the PD.

Bob
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:24 pm

Well it looks like the game tonight could be a big soggy..rain will be all around. The Indians will need to score early and often to assure a stoppage is in their favor.. Our left hand dominant lineup will only have two lefties in the Rockies' pen to contend with along with old friend Raffy Right. This should be a decent chance to keep Pronk, Choo and Grady in the lineup for all three days..
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Are we sure this game isn't in Colorado?

2 home runs in 4 innings? This Nicasio has no chance against Hafner and Santana if all he's going to throw is fastballs.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby jellis » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:34 pm

I am the least reactionary guy, but carmona is cooked. No confidence at all in himself and his pitches. Honestly don't think you pick up the option with the depth we have and as shitty as he has turned
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:38 pm

jellis wrote:I am the least reactionary guy, but carmona is cooked. No confidence at all in himself and his pitches. Honestly don't think you pick up the option with the depth we have and as shitty as he has turned


I think that normally I would give him time, but with as well as the guys in AAA have been pitching I don't know how much longer we can put up with this.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby martyinnewyork » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:38 pm

Carmona is maddening...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:40 pm

Time for Carmona to get some Cliff Lee treatment...this kid needs a wake up call and be sent to Columbus

2 outs, nobody on and then he can't get the next 7 (!!) batters? Are you kidding me? I realize he got a tough break on that 3B ground ball but he had other multiple opportunities to stop the bleeing and simply didn't....he doesn't have a QS since like forever

If he has an option left (not sure, anyone knows?), I would really send him down with McAllister, Gomez, Barnes and now even Huff pitching well

Enough is enough...and who knows maybe he comes back pitching like a true ace...it worked with Cliff Lee back then
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:43 pm

jellis wrote:I am the least reactionary guy, but carmona is cooked. No confidence at all in himself and his pitches. Honestly don't think you pick up the option with the depth we have and as shitty as he has turned


8 straight starts giving up at least 4 runs. Agree you either dont pick it up or trade him for any type of prospects. Ive mentioned it all season but a huge mistake by the FO not trading him after last year.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:44 pm

Tondo wrote:Time for Carmona to get some Cliff Lee treatment...this kid needs a wake up call and be sent to Columbus

2 outs, nobody on and then he can't get the next 7 (!!) batters? Are you kidding me? I realize he got a tough break on that 3B ground ball but he had other multiple opportunities to stop the bleeing and simply didn't....he doesn't have a QS since like forever

If he has an option left (not sure, anyone knows?), I would really send him down with McAllister, Gomez, Barnes and now even Huff pitching well

Enough is enough...and who knows maybe he comes back pitching like a true ace...it worked with Cliff Lee back then


OUT OF OPTIONS
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:45 pm

ChadS17 wrote:
Tondo wrote:Time for Carmona to get some Cliff Lee treatment...this kid needs a wake up call and be sent to Columbus

2 outs, nobody on and then he can't get the next 7 (!!) batters? Are you kidding me? I realize he got a tough break on that 3B ground ball but he had other multiple opportunities to stop the bleeing and simply didn't....he doesn't have a QS since like forever

If he has an option left (not sure, anyone knows?), I would really send him down with McAllister, Gomez, Barnes and now even Huff pitching well

Enough is enough...and who knows maybe he comes back pitching like a true ace...it worked with Cliff Lee back then


OUT OF OPTIONS


Sorry for the caps lock.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:53 pm

Barring an All-star performance in the second half - no way they pick up his option now. I know he is "cheap" for a starter.... But he is not a starter anymore. He will be fighting for a job next year, ala Freddie Garcia...

Though he is out of options, I suspect some shoulder tightness or calf strain in his not so distant future. Some "rehab" could do him well.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:55 pm

Well, then it's a littler tougher but I think there's a good chance he clears waivers as I don't think anyone is interested in paying a struggling pitcher multi millions picking up his contract
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:56 pm

If the team doesn't pick up his option, do they still get a compensatory pick when he signs elsewhere?

I gotta think he still has some value.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:58 pm

Tondo wrote:Well, then it's a littler tougher but I think there's a good chance he clears waivers as I don't think anyone is interested in paying a struggling pitcher multi millions picking up his contract


Carmona will be in pinstripes if he hits waivers.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby ChadS17 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:02 pm

After rethinking that last statement, Yankees might not be best fit, but a large market pitching starved team will take a chance on him.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:05 pm

[quote="entertheshoe"]If the team doesn't pick up his option, do they still get a compensatory pick when he signs elsewhere?

I gotta think he still has some value.[/quote]

As a "project" or catching lighting in bottle he totally does. But as a viable option for your ML starting rotation currently, I would say he has almost none. Any taker would be totally trying to get lucky BUT given his past performance, someone is likely to give him another shot - sink or swim....
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:06 pm

I like Carmona, but what's going on??? I'd make a trade if they get a good offer otherwise I'd pick up the option and move him this offseason. The Tribe does have depth at AAA and beyond and perhaps moving Carmona would free more money to sign some of the draft pks.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:11 pm

Though he is out of options, I suspect some shoulder tightness or calf strain in his not so distant future. Some "rehab" could do him well.


Hah yeah youre probably right
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:15 pm

People just need to take a step back and think about this. Carmona is struggling but he's not awful. He was one pitch away from heading into the 6th inning unscathed. He could still serve here, just not as the Carmona that he was last year. He's an upgrade over Durbin right now if he were moved to the bullpen. The Yankees are starting a 32 year old Brian Gordon whom I've never heard of. The Red Sox are starting Andrew Miller (yes, THAT Andrew Miller) and his career 5.84 ERA. To think that he has zero value is pretty crazy.

This situation screams Edwin Jackson to me and even he and his 5.16 ERA last year still got the D-Backs Daniel Hudson in a trade.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:15 pm

Indians are in a bind with Carmona. Can't place him on waivers as he has a friendly contract which any time could take on and is very low risk considering he has three club options the next three years. No risk to any team with payroll except each year. So with that, and his talent that is still there but not being reached, there would be incentive for almost any team looking to fill a need in the back of the rotation (which is a lot of teams).

So, right now you either need to stick it out with him or put him on waivers with the idea that he probably is claimed.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:19 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I like Carmona, but what's going on??? I'd make a trade if they get a good offer otherwise I'd pick up the option and move him this offseason. The Tribe does have depth at AAA and beyond and perhaps moving Carmona would free more money to sign some of the draft pks.


Tribe's in 1st place, Carmona is a big hudle to get a W everytime he takes the mound...I'm not willing to "wait" another 15-20 Carmona starts "to find out" or to get another spec in the offseason...this is about NOW....we have the depth? Well, USE the depth and upgrade on Carmona...if that means losing him without compensation? So be it...

For me:

Contending this year > 1or2 more C prospects

All this spec stuff, org depth etc is built in order to WIN games and the Tribe July games MEAN something, Carmona is putting up losses/not giving good chances at a W = time to move on and upgrade from within

Only other option I'd accept is optioning down Herrrman or cutting Durbin and "work" on Carmona demoting him to mop-up long-RP
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:26 pm

Tondo wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:I like Carmona, but what's going on??? I'd make a trade if they get a good offer otherwise I'd pick up the option and move him this offseason. The Tribe does have depth at AAA and beyond and perhaps moving Carmona would free more money to sign some of the draft pks.


Tribe's in 1st place, Carmona is a big hudle to get a W everytime he takes the mound...I'm not willing to "wait" another 15-20 Carmona starts "to find out" or to get another spec in the offseason...this is about NOW....we have the depth? Well, USE the depth and upgrade on Carmona...if that means losing him without compensation? So be it...

For me:

Contending this year > 1or2 more C prospects

All this spec stuff, org depth etc is built in order to WIN games and the Tribe July games MEAN something, Carmona is putting up losses/not giving good chances at a W = time to move on and upgrade from within

Only other option I'd accept is optioning down Herrrman or cutting Durbin and "work" on Carmona demoting him to mop-up long-RP


I don't really follow your logic. How are contending this year and attaining 1 or 2 more C prospects mutually exclusive?

Going by your logic that winning now means removing Carmona from the rotation:

Scenario 1) You trade Carmona he is gone and you get something (prospect or veteran) in return
Result: Carmona is gone so the pitching improves

Scenario 2) You lose Carmona without compensation
Result: Carmona is gone so the pitching improves

Either way the pitching improves because Carmona is out of the rotation. So why not take try to get something in return even if it's a "C" prospect. Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabera, and Choo weren't exactly "A" prospects if I recall.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:30 pm

This is Carmonas 3rd best year (out of 6). His WHIP this year was 1.364 entering tonight and for his career its 1.428. Time to stop pretending he is better than this
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:49 pm

Interesting, I just noticed that Carmona's next scheduled start is Sunday at San Francisco on ESPN Sunday Night Baseball. The plot thickens...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:52 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Either way the pitching improves because Carmona is out of the rotation. So why not take try to get something in return even if it's a "C" prospect. Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabera, and Choo weren't exactly "A" prospects if I recall.


Of course you do...just arguing against the logic that we're "tied" to Carmona or waiting for trading him "for something" after the season..if you can work a trade NOW? Great..I just don't think anyone would give up anything significant...but still, get what you can, preferably very young A-ball bats with some upside....but I don't want us to hold onto Carmona just to squeeze out some "value" AFTER the season

My point is: we gotta do something about him NOW as every game counts...and if nobody bites on a trade then we just have to let him go for nothing. I want the best talent this org has out there...not the biggest contracts

Talking bout talent...time for Judy over Herrmann too
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:55 pm

Tondo wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:Either way the pitching improves because Carmona is out of the rotation. So why not take try to get something in return even if it's a "C" prospect. Carlos Santana, Asdrubal Cabera, and Choo weren't exactly "A" prospects if I recall.


Of course you do...just arguing against the logic that we're "tied" to Carmona or waiting for trading him "for something" after the season..if you can work a trade NOW? Great..I just don't think anyone would give up anything significant...but still, get what you can, preferably very young A-ball bats with some upside....but I don't want us to hold onto Carmona just to squeeze out some "value" AFTER the season

My point is: we gotta do something about him NOW as every game counts...and if nobody bites on a trade then we just have to let him go for nothing. I want the best talent this org has out there...not the biggest contracts

Talking bout talent...time for Judy over Herrmann too


I agree. I wouldn't even be against paying for some or most of Carmona's contract in order to increase his trade value.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:16 pm

Horrible call. Not even close!
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Bearcatbob » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:18 pm

"Talking bout talent...time for Judy over Herrmann too."

I do not get the gripe about Hermann.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:"Talking bout talent...time for Judy over Herrmann too."

I do not get the gripe about Hermann.


I used to be in the anti-Herrmann camp as well but the guy has been lights out in June with a 1.13 ERA.

In fact, if you take away the train wreck in Boston where he gave up 6 runs on 3 home runs his ERA isn't really all that bad.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Tondo » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:"Talking bout talent...time for Judy over Herrmann too."

I do not get the gripe about Hermann.


He had a good game today and he could develop into our next Betancourt (FB exclusive)....I like him over Durbin, so should read "Judy over Durbin"...Herrmann's def MLB material but we have some pretty good RP everywhere

What a dumb loss...Carmona may have pitched his way out of Cleveland with this stinker
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:35 pm

Tough loss to swallow.

6 runs in the 5th inning all with 2 outs
2 of them on Tulo's double which 2-hopped off of 3rd base
Jason freaking Giambi with a 3 run home run. We're getting owned this year by steroid users
Marson's error was really confusing because it came with 2 strikes and it looked for sure like Herrmann was going to strike him out, which he did. Why go for the pickoff at 1st base with a man on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs and 2 strikes?
Brantley nearly jacked one to tie the game but it was inches foul
Cord Phelps was clearly safe at 2nd, it would have been huge to head in to the 9th without Marson (who later become Travis Buck leading off)
Sizemore's hit in the 9th was sooo close to a home run
Great play by Todd Helton to end the game


We caught ZERO breaks that game.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:42 pm

The only thing that makes sense to me is releasing Durbin, which is no loss, putting Carmona in his spot, and bringing up one of the young studs that's pitching well in Columbus. That way we have a chance of winning the starts Carmona is getting now but we're not giving him away, and if he pulls it together later in the season like he did last year we still have him.

Even if Carmona gets the 3rd out in the 5th he's looking at the top of the order in the 6th and he would have given up all those runs just the same. He can't get good hitters out. That ball Giambi hit was crushed. It's not often the center fielder doesn't even move on a HR to dead center.

Tough way to lose with Marson handing them a run on a botched pickoff throw and then going down 8-7.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby hoof32 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:34 am

Durbin's salary is $1MM, and Herrmann has an option, IIRC.

So I'd be flabbergasted if they released Durbin now.

Durbin hasn't been that horrible, he's just had three or four bad outings.

I'd say Acta will give Carmona another start. Maybe two!!

As far as the Rockies: 'That crew can really fluff up your ERA.'

- - -

I was so glad Acta made the obvious move, pinch-hitting Buck for Marson in the ninth.

It's Buck's damn job to hit the ball hard every AB. He's gotta hit in that spot.

I like Marson's defense very much, he's really playing tough. Can't ask for more there.

But (in spite of his better numbers recently) he looks diminutive at the plate. His approach is good: hitting for contact, and take it to RF. But hitting isn't part of his game at this point (obviously). Hopefully, that changes (soon).

Have to pinch-hit for Marson in that spot. Gotta, gotta, gotta.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:03 am

Putrid game.. a real stinko..

-Fausto discussion: He'll be out there in five days.. on Sunday Night Baseball against the SF Giants.. While not the only course of action, it looks like the Indians will keep running Fausto out there every fifth day.. shorten the leash.. and put Santana behind the plate for his starts.. Trading or putting him on waivers is unlikely. A bad situation, to be sure.

-PRONK with a rocket shot, one handed!. The only thing left was a vapor trail..ditto Carlos

-Close but no cigar: Brantley's shot down the right field line.. Cord continues to rocket shot after rocket shot. While he only had one hit to show for his effort.. he was robbed!!

-Not on single break went the Indians way in last night's game.. Some of the the poor defense could have been avoided if: O-Cabby charged the ball that hit the corner of the third base bag.. Choo charged the blooper in RF that was just out of the reach of Cord.. one more step for the blooper to left field that was just out of the reach of Drooobs.. Holding the ball or making an accurate throw by Lou Marson. Instead, his chuck down the right field line, allowing the run to score from second base proved to be the margin in the loss..

-Supe-Herrmann has started to show/throw a split/change. It's enough of a wrinkle to keep the hitters honest. With his express, he's become a bona-fide member in good standing with the Bullpen Mafia. Durbin picked up the team with two solid innings of relief including keeping his one inherited runner from scoring from second base.

-The Tigers ran into a buzz saw with Kershaw and were shut out, so, first place is retained.. That's the way it goes some nights..
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:43 am

In spite of the bad breaks there were some good things coming out of this game.

Choo had three hits for the first time since September. He says he still not 100% but he's more comfortable and relaxed. Getting that single off a lefty with the bases loaded and two out was huge. He's been useless in those situations all year.

Herrmann actually looked dominating. I noticed that changeup he was throwing. The hitters were looking for heat and the changeup just froze them every time. And he was getting it over.

Pronk and Choo are back and the offense generated seven runs. Santana has three HRs in the last four games. Maybe having these guys back and anchoring the middle of the lineup will have a ripple effect and this team will start scoring again.

Now that Phelps is settling in he gives the team a much better at-bat against right-handed pitchers than OCab plus more range at 2B.

On the down side, Carmona may be a lost cause. Acta said he lost his focus - again. He's 28 and in his 6th year in the majors. If he can't maintain his focus by now, when will he ever do it? Like the scout said, he's a very frustrating player. OTOH, he did have a 3.77 ERA last year in over 30 starts and was an injury replacement in the All-Star game. What the hell happened?
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:53 am

Wasn't Carmona a legit all-star? I don't recall him being an injury replacement, if he was then we had 2 all-stars and the other is slipping my mind.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:42 am

entertheshoe wrote:Wasn't Carmona a legit all-star? I don't recall him being an injury replacement, if he was then we had 2 all-stars and the other is slipping my mind.


He was our only all-star. Choo didn't make the team, but probably should have.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:09 pm

entertheshoe wrote:Tough loss to swallow.

6 runs in the 5th inning all with 2 outs
2 of them on Tulo's double which 2-hopped off of 3rd base
Jason freaking Giambi with a 3 run home run. We're getting owned this year by steroid users
Marson's error was really confusing because it came with 2 strikes and it looked for sure like Herrmann was going to strike him out, which he did. Why go for the pickoff at 1st base with a man on 1st and 2nd with 2 outs and 2 strikes?
Brantley nearly jacked one to tie the game but it was inches foul
Cord Phelps was clearly safe at 2nd, it would have been huge to head in to the 9th without Marson (who later become Travis Buck leading off)
Sizemore's hit in the 9th was sooo close to a home run
Great play by Todd Helton to end the game


We caught ZERO breaks that game.


There was only 1 out when Marson threw that ball to 1st. Hermann did strike the batter out....but that was out #2. So it made "some" sense. Todd Helton was on deck and if you get the runner at 1st and then the K, you don't face him with men on base. Terrible throw though....
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:19 pm

As much as losing that kind of game sucks, it's actually a good sign. Bad luck evens out over time. Bad approach does not. The Indians were hitting well, the bullpen was pitching well and the team was fielding without much incident (Marson's blunder aside). Over a long season, games like these will happen even to the best teams. The fact that we were close despite the bad luck is a great sign, IMO.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:39 pm

Edible14 wrote:As much as losing that kind of game sucks, it's actually a good sign. Bad luck evens out over time. Bad approach does not. The Indians were hitting well, the bullpen was pitching well and the team was fielding without much incident (Marson's blunder aside). Over a long season, games like these will happen even to the best teams. The fact that we were close despite the bad luck is a great sign, IMO.


-Hmmm... the ole "...it'll all even out in the end...." explanation???. I don't believe it, but, you're welcome to add it as a possible "silver lining"..
-Bad approaches lead to long bus rides...to great places with crummy motels and limited food choices...

Prosecutor:
-Choo had a hit.. Santana had three
-Supe-Herrmann was lights out.. not his first time...as someone said..take away that 6 ER outing against the Red Sox back in May, and he's been incredible (2 ER in 14.2 IP)...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:36 pm

Think "lights out" is a bit overboard there with Hermann. Definitely pitched well, but that was only his 2nd clean outing of the entire year and first since his return (the other was a 1 pitcher performance). He's not a bad 6th/7th man in the bullpen though, but not a guy I want to see brought in with men on base very often.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:06 pm

Nice change to the lineup.. I like the move of Cord to the two hole...
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:50 pm

6 innings, 8 hits, and 3 earned runs is probably best case scenario for Mitch Talbot.

He's throwing a ton of strikes but his stuff is just really not too impressive. He was helped out by some great defense but I still fail to see how he is a better option than Jeanmar Gomez.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:20 pm

entertheshoe wrote:6 innings, 8 hits, and 3 earned runs is probably best case scenario for Mitch Talbot.

He's throwing a ton of strikes but his stuff is just really not too impressive. He was helped out by some great defense but I still fail to see how he is a better option than Jeanmar Gomez.


Disagree on base case scenario. Only the 3rd time this season that he's given up more than 2 runs in game this season in 8 starts. then again, his 3rd longest outing. He's had two terrible outings...the rest, he's kept the team in the game.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:29 pm

Pretty typical Talbot......... Always an experience.. I think the you got to ride him into the ground before you give up on him. He is doing a good enough job, exactly what I think was/is expected. Funny thing though, he would already be gone IMO if he pitched like Fausto has been.
Depth in Columbus will win out at some point and someone will get pinched...He is definitely a candidate..
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:29 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:6 innings, 8 hits, and 3 earned runs is probably best case scenario for Mitch Talbot.

He's throwing a ton of strikes but his stuff is just really not too impressive. He was helped out by some great defense but I still fail to see how he is a better option than Jeanmar Gomez.


Disagree on base case scenario. Only the 3rd time this season that he's given up more than 2 runs in game this season in 8 starts. then again, his 3rd longest outing. He's had two terrible outings...the rest, he's kept the team in the game.


He had 3 times going into the game that he gave up more than 2 runs. This makes it 4. And it's really cherry-picking stats to draw the line at 2 runs when he has had 3 starts giving up exactly 2 runs (each in less than 6 innings of work).


His ERA for 7 out of his 8 starts is greater than 4, that doesn't scream job security to me.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:33 pm

entertheshoe wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
entertheshoe wrote:6 innings, 8 hits, and 3 earned runs is probably best case scenario for Mitch Talbot.

He's throwing a ton of strikes but his stuff is just really not too impressive. He was helped out by some great defense but I still fail to see how he is a better option than Jeanmar Gomez.


Disagree on base case scenario. Only the 3rd time this season that he's given up more than 2 runs in game this season in 8 starts. then again, his 3rd longest outing. He's had two terrible outings...the rest, he's kept the team in the game.


He had 3 times going into the game that he gave up more than 2 runs. This makes it 4. And it's really cherry-picking stats to draw the line at 2 runs when he has had 3 starts giving up exactly 2 runs (each in less than 6 innings of work).


His ERA for 7 out of his 8 starts is greater than 4, that doesn't scream job security to me.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=talbomi01&t=p&year=2011

hmm, sure looks like he only had 2 heading into today. Not really sure how that's cherry picking, 2 runs or less in a start is very solid.

And in this day and age, an ERA above 4 is not bad. Hell, a quality start is an ERA of 4.5. Talbot is not the guy we need to be worried about right now in the rotation. Obviously an ERA of 4.91 is not good, nor is averaging less than 6 innings a start, but compared to Carmona, he's fine.


Not a guy you want to build your rotation around, or a guy that seems like a long term answer in the rotation, but his job is secure for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Rockies at Indians, June 20, 21 & 22

Postby entertheshoe » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:49 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=talbomi01&t=p&year=2011

hmm, sure looks like he only had 2 heading into today. Not really sure how that's cherry picking, 2 runs or less in a start is very solid.

And in this day and age, an ERA above 4 is not bad. Hell, a quality start is an ERA of 4.5. Talbot is not the guy we need to be worried about right now in the rotation. Obviously an ERA of 4.91 is not good, nor is averaging less than 6 innings a start, but compared to Carmona, he's fine.


Not a guy you want to build your rotation around, or a guy that seems like a long term answer in the rotation, but his job is secure for the foreseeable future.


Ah touche, I went cross-eyed and was reading ESPN's game log mistakingly taking his monthly total as another start.

Still, I consider his 3 earned runs to be best case scenario. To me he's in equally shaky ground as Carmona just because the upside isn't as high and he hasn't doesn't have Carmona's resume or stuff. And most importantly, it goes without mentioning that for the front office it's much easier to cut ties with Talbot than it is to do so with Carmona.
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