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Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:39 pm

Anybody know what Thomas Neal's injury status is? He's on the 7 day DL according to his MiLB page and hasn't played since July 16th.

Thanks
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:48 pm

I'm not a rose colored glasses person, but regarding Jimenez' stats in 2011, I found the following encouraging...

Take a look at his ratios; Jimenez is striking out just as many guys as he did in 2010. He's walking fewer guys than he ever has in his career (best K/BB ratio of his career). Purely from a statistical point of view, the only real differences that I found are that (1) his BABIP is 31 points higher than his career average (.309 in 2011 vs. career AVG of .283) and (2) his HR/Fly ball rate is as high as it ever has been in full seasons. To me, that would imply he's been on the bad side of luck in 2011. Now, you could argue these numbers are higher b/c his velocity is down this year, but his strike out totals are still very good and directly comparable to his 2010 season, so his overall arsenal of pitches appears to be fine. To me, the ERA looks like it's a bit inflated this year.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:06 am

entertheshoe wrote:Anybody know what Thomas Neal's injury status is? He's on the 7 day DL according to his MiLB page and hasn't played since July 16th.

Thanks


Don't shoot me if I'm wrong but I think I read somewhere that it was a hand bruise from being hit by a pitch.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:07 am

OhioBaseball wrote:I'm not a rose colored glasses person, but regarding Jimenez' stats in 2011, I found the following encouraging...

Take a look at his ratios; Jimenez is striking out just as many guys as he did in 2010. He's walking fewer guys than he ever has in his career (best K/BB ratio of his career). Purely from a statistical point of view, the only real differences that I found are that (1) his BABIP is 31 points higher than his career average (.309 in 2011 vs. career AVG of .283) and (2) his HR/Fly ball rate is as high as it ever has been in full seasons. To me, that would imply he's been on the bad side of luck in 2011. Now, you could argue these numbers are higher b/c his velocity is down this year, but his strike out totals are still very good and directly comparable to his 2010 season, so his overall arsenal of pitches appears to be fine. To me, the ERA looks like it's a bit inflated this year.


If you wanna feel really good about his numbers -- look at his home/road splits.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:38 am

I hope the Tribe is still looking for 1 more bat - Willingham or Ludwick before the deadline.

Considering the Padres are looking to salary dump Ludwick (according to some reports), I wonder if a perpetually injured Weglarz could get a trade done.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby indiansfan055 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:49 am

Jimenez is a big risk. He battled some injuries earlier in the year but as he has gotten healthier, his performance has also improved. Potentially he is a big risk, but so is Alex White at this point. Gardner is a groundball machine but his numbers have been somewhat lackluster this year. McBride is a throw in. So essentially its Pomeranz for Jimenez. Time will tell.

The Orlando Cabrera trade is a good one.

The Indians still have lots of pitching in the upper levels.

Masterson
Jimenez
Tomlin
Carrasco
Carmona
Huff
ZMAC
Gomez
Barnes

This likely made them more comfortable taking a big risk.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:59 am

Wow, just WOW....KILLER trade...both White and Pomz is not ideal but still absolutely HATS OFF to the FO...this is a NUTS ON THE TABLE kind of deal...LOVE it

Ubaldo is a legit FOR, 18mil through 2014 (was 2014 voided?) through club options...he's 27yo

I think White is the better spec IF healthy, Pomz just walks too many guys for my liking....Gardner hasn't cut down his BB-rate either, looks like he'll be a RP soon...McBride's just a throw in to make it look better

We'll get comp picks when Ubaldo leaves...should be able to land a Pomz/White spec there

It wasn't cheap but we landed a legit FOR...that's tough to accomplish...this isn't about this season, although it should help...it's about 2012+13...like the aggressiveness

OCab for Neal is another great deal...I would have been happy with an A-Ball RP...getting a legit spec like Neal is very, very nice...bye, bye OCab

Well done :good:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:56 am

Another thing about the Ubaldo trade...

Regarding Pomeranz, I'm not trashing him but he's a guy that pitches vertically. His arm slot is high and he can use his fastball up and his curveball is over-the-top with good downward break. He is a fly-ball pitcher. He's the type of pitcher that would do GREAT in San Diego, Los Angeles, Oakland, but he's really not that great of a fit for Coors Field. Good news for Colorado is he get's K's to keep the ball out of play, but just is something a little odd.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby petes999 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:53 am

Just think if we would have gotten that kind of haul out of Philly or Mil.... We sold a bit low and bought a bit high - however Jimenez has an extra year on Lee and two on CC. That is how things work.

Yet, again White could be our Knapp, where he doesn't pitch much. Thus, when they said players have to pass physicals, is it more likely that White doesn't pass his and then there is no back up to replace him in this trade?

The real issue though is what do you do for trading chips going forward? Our cupboards are relatively bare now that the top 4 prospects have left our farm system (graduated/traded). There is a huge drop off after #4 this year. With next year's being Lindor, Howard, Barnes and Wolters. Thus, we have no major pieces to trade to fill the remaining holes -- OF bats....

And, we don't have a bat in our system to be ready to replace Sizemore and Hafner after next season. Maybe they sign Hafner to a 1-year deal to get through 2013. Then it is a rebuild with trading Masterson, Perez and Carmona in 2014 as you would have lost Choo, Astrubal and Jimenez after 2013 season (assuming Jimenez opts out). There will only be Laporta, Brantley, Carrasco, Santana, Chisenhall and Kipnis left (maybe Barnes). Got hitters but no pitching as even Howard needs 4 season at least to get ready (2012, 2013, 2014 ...). Who is down in A ball that can be a FOR? McFarland? C. Cook? House? Soto? Knapp? Sterling? -- No one jumps out as a FOR type of guy.... other than arm falling off Knapp.

Love getting rid of Orlando .... Donald is an upgrade plus you get a right handed bat. I really hope we don't get Lud.

Also, question on who you send down on Huff and Carrasco... I think you add Tomlin in there with 4.86 ERA in last 10 vs. 4.18 for Carrasco -- but then Carrasco has fallen apart the last 5 games. So send him down for 2 -3 games first to get straighten out and then Tomlin unless he starts to improve which he has a bit. I like what Huff has done. See what he has and if he has a bad outing ... call it tired arm and you can bring up Carrasco/Tomlin up before 10 days due to injury.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby indians1 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:03 am

i think you worry about 2014 when 2014 comes. In the meantime, you make sure jimenez is fully healthy and get him stronger. If Scott Barnes can come back and pitch like he was prior to his injury, you have another guy that could be that left handed strikeout pitcher.

My feeling is that they must really think barnes and pomeranz are not that far apart. Barnes has had control issues, but when he is on, he was really good.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby timdav » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:11 am

Big risk trading the Indians' top 2 pitching prospects? Absolutely.

But, the folks in Denver are reportedly outraged that they "gave away" their ace starter for "two unprooven prospects".

So, it's subjective, huh? :)

One thing for sure...it's great to see the Indians organization finally on the other end of a trade of veteran star player(s).

Wish the best for all 5 traded players. Especially for O-Cab. He's a pro.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:23 am

Barnes and McAllister suddenly become the cream of the crop of starters with Barnes out til next yr bc of knee. Knapp is a key, his health will determine alot ... SP / RP and potential depth to the system. Cant forget Packer and Adams. Tribe essentially moved White bc of injury concerns... I'd be shy on him too, but hope and pray the best for him. Corey Kluber has struggled mightily during portions of the season but has some potential at 25 time isn't on his side. TJ House a power lefty could get it together. Mike Rayl has been very effective. Clayton Cook could develop into a solid 3 in the future. Felix Sterling is an interesting arm. Gio Soto has potential but be concerned about his injury. The DLC could get it together. Austin Adams seems a forgotten man. Trey Haley could and probably will be stretched back out into a starter. TJ McFarland could become a useful arm and Kyle Blair could rebound and get back on track.
At triple A Huff (expect him to be moved, IMO) Gomez, McAllister, Kluber.
Hector Rondon, Alex Perez, Rob Aviles are all returning from injury.
Honestly I would have rather seen tribe give up several bullpen guys. It is what it is, Tribe is going for the division with eyes on the WS in 12/13. Never a bad idea to compete but such a high cost. I guess the uncertainty of Whites injury plays in, Jimenez team friendly contract does too, his final yr (14) at $8 mil is a player voidable option bc of trade so it's essentially a 2 yr window. Getting Jimenez for 2 yrs was the key... But losing White and Pomeranz is painful.
Last edited by homerawayfromhome on Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:27 am

Great trade. If we make the playoffs then we compete in a 5 game series with any team because our top 3 starters are as good as any, including the Yankees. With Ocab leaving Donald hopefully gets his shot to be our super sub in the infield. Now if Nick Johnson can get healthy we have another professional hitter. Ludwick appears to be on the way. We are coming off a great victory last nite, hopefully we can get hot and win the division.

Proud to be an Indians fan today. I tip my cap to Chris Antonetti for being proactive.

I was also glad to see the Indians show sincere interest in BJ Upton and Michael Bourn, both have similar qualities to Andrew McCutcheon. Hoping we stay on Bourn's trail this off-season, he is a game changer.

With Pomeranz and White departing it will give an opportunity to players like Packer, Hagadone, Barnes, McAllister and others to be the next wave of starting pitchers. Huff has done well, Gomez is still available and Hector Rondon is on the rebound and Knapp will be back next year. Most of the time pitchers just need a chance to pitch regularly. Hoping David Huff at least remains consistent.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:32 am

Tribe is reportedly going after Rox Chris Iannetta. Could lose Marson in that one, but question is who else they want. Tribe should get an IOU from Rox on this one.
Curious if Tribe I'd still in on Upton, Bourn and Ludwick. It had been reported Tribe would acq. Ludwick but nothing has happened there.
Definately going to be interesting to see what Tribe does in the offseason, I honestly believe the Miller experience made Alex White expendable. Alex White and Drew Pomeranz we loved what you brought to the table but we hardly knew you.
Signing this new crop of draftees now will become the focus once the dust has settled on today. I expect an aggressive approach going forward. Wow! The FO has really changed the strategy, it's refreshing and frustrating seeing 1&2 specs go.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:33 am

Tribe is reportedly going after Rox Chris Iannetta. Could lose Marson in that one, but question is who else they want. Tribe should get an IOU from Rox on this one.
Curious if Tribe I'd still in on Upton, Bourn and Ludwick. It had been reported Tribe would acq. Ludwick but nothing has happened there.
Definately going to be interesting to see what Tribe does in the offseason, I honestly believe the Miller experience made Alex White expendable. Alex White and Drew Pomeranz we loved what you brought to the table but we hardly knew you.
Signing this new crop of draftees now will become the focus once the dust has settled on today. I expect an aggressive approach going forward. Wow! The FO has really changed the strategy, it's refreshing and frustrating seeing 1&2 specs go.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:24 am

Peters must get signed now...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby go_tribe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:38 am

If a trade had to happen, thank God we ended up trading for the best player available in Jimenez. If we had given up even 1 of our top 4 guys for Hunter Pence I would've been sick.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:04 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Peters must get signed now...


Actually.. both Dillon's (Howard and Peters).. would be nice..would be even nice if Cole Pitts was inked as well, two weeks and a day until the signing deadline.. should be interesting..
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:32 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Tribe is reportedly going after Rox Chris Iannetta. Could lose Marson in that one, but question is who else they want. Tribe should get an IOU from Rox on this one.
Curious if Tribe I'd still in on Upton, Bourn and Ludwick. It had been reported Tribe would acq. Ludwick but nothing has happened there.
Definately going to be interesting to see what Tribe does in the offseason, I honestly believe the Miller experience made Alex White expendable. Alex White and Drew Pomeranz we loved what you brought to the table but we hardly knew you.
Signing this new crop of draftees now will become the focus once the dust has settled on today. I expect an aggressive approach going forward. Wow! The FO has really changed the strategy, it's refreshing and frustrating seeing 1&2 specs go.


fyi - sure you prob know by now, but Bourne went to the Braves
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:50 pm

indians1 wrote:i think you worry about 2014 when 2014 comes. In the meantime, you make sure jimenez is fully healthy and get him stronger. If Scott Barnes can come back and pitch like he was prior to his injury, you have another guy that could be that left handed strikeout pitcher.

My feeling is that they must really think barnes and pomeranz are not that far apart. Barnes has had control issues, but when he is on, he was really good.


My sentiments exactly. On top of that, when you look at the history and performance of McCallister, makes the loss of White a little more palatable. When you look at the "stuff" of some of these young pitchers, one can help but think that hype and pedigree are the biggest differences between them. Don't take this wrong because I loved Pom and White and hate that we had to trade 1of them, let alone both.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:15 pm

timdav wrote:Big risk trading the Indians' top 2 pitching prospects? Absolutely.

But, the folks in Denver are reportedly outraged that they "gave away" their ace starter for "two unprooven prospects".

So, it's subjective, huh? :)

One thing for sure...it's great to see the Indians organization finally on the other end of a trade of veteran star player(s).

Wish the best for all 5 traded players. Especially for O-Cab. He's a pro.


Definitely subjective. Most Colorado fans I've talked to LOVE this deal for the Rockies. They kind of view Ubaldo similiarly as to how we view Carmona. He's definitely better and not as inconsistent, but for a guy touted as an Ace, he was frustrating to many fans. Pomeranz, Chacin, De La Rosa, White, and Hammel/Nicasio by the end of next year could be one hell of a rotation for the Rockies.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:24 pm

Tondo wrote:Wow, just WOW....KILLER trade...both White and Pomz is not ideal but still absolutely HATS OFF to the FO...this is a NUTS ON THE TABLE kind of deal...LOVE it

Ubaldo is a legit FOR, 18mil through 2014 (was 2014 voided?) through club options...he's 27yo

I think White is the better spec IF healthy, Pomz just walks too many guys for my liking....Gardner hasn't cut down his BB-rate either, looks like he'll be a RP soon...McBride's just a throw in to make it look better

We'll get comp picks when Ubaldo leaves...should be able to land a Pomz/White spec there

It wasn't cheap but we landed a legit FOR...that's tough to accomplish...this isn't about this season, although it should help...it's about 2012+13...like the aggressiveness

OCab for Neal is another great deal...I would have been happy with an A-Ball RP...getting a legit spec like Neal is very, very nice...bye, bye OCab

Well done :good:


2014 has not been voided; however, Ubaldo can void it when the time comes since he was traded. It's an $8M option, so only way he doesn't void it is if he's hurt. I disagree on him being a #1, but even guys like Westbrook get $8M on the open market.

As far as compenstation....hopefully we get that. Never know how the new CBA will treat arbitration and compensation. Plus we saw the compensation the Brewers got when CC left.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:20 pm

Foxsports is reporting that the Tribe is still in on BJ Upton, and that the Rays are scouting the Aeros. Not a lot left there....Weglarz and Chen though both fit the Rays IMO, thoguh neither played today. Bryson did though
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby go_tribe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:32 pm

would hate to lose Chen, but a BP arm for Upton would be a great trade imo
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:34 pm

Looking back at the Indians top prospect lists over the last few years, whether it's reactionary or not, you can't blame the Indians for moving pitching prospects while their values are high. According to BA's lists, these are the pitchers. The Indians haven't been so successful with pitching prospects the last 7 years or so.

2004
2 – Jeremy Guthrie
3 – Fausto Carmona
4 – Jake Dittler
5 – Fernando Cabrera
9 – Adam Miller

2005
1 – Adam Miller
5 – Jeremy Sowers
6 – Fausto Carmona
7 – Fernando Cabrera
9 – Nick Pesco

2006
1 – Adam Miller
2 – Jeremy Sowers
4 – Fausto Carmona
7 – Fernando Cabrera

2007
1 – Adam Miller
2 – Chuck Lofgren
4 – Tony Sipp
7 – Scott Lewis
10 – David Huff

2008
1 – Adam Miller
2 – Chuck Lofgren
5 – Aaron Laffey
8 – David Huff
10 – Jensen Lewis

2009
4 – Adam Miller
7 – Kelvin De La Cruz
8 – David Huff

2010
3 – Nick Hagadone
4 – Jason Knapp
7 – Hector Rondon
8 – Carlos Carrasco
9 – Alex White
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:49 pm

Good point Ohiobaseball. Though other than Miller, not sure any were rated top 15 in baseball like Pom?

Still not thrilled about trading your top 2 pitching prospects for a guy who Dan O'Dowd (Rockeis GM) just essentially called a #2 or 3 pitcher.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:52 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Good point Ohiobaseball. Though other than Miller, not sure any were rated top 15 in baseball like Pom?

Still not thrilled about trading your top 2 pitching prospects for a guy who Dan O'Dowd (Rockeis GM) just essentially called a #2 or 3 pitcher.



O'dowd has to say that he is being hammered, and that team has failed pretty badly since 09
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chiefroy » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:39 am

Jeff Passan concludes that the Indians made a great deal to get Ubaldo:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... cts_073111
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:17 pm

jellis wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Good point Ohiobaseball. Though other than Miller, not sure any were rated top 15 in baseball like Pom?

Still not thrilled about trading your top 2 pitching prospects for a guy who Dan O'Dowd (Rockeis GM) just essentially called a #2 or 3 pitcher.



O'dowd has to say that he is being hammered, and that team has failed pretty badly since 09


I disagree that he has to say it.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:38 am

Nick Johnson 2-4 last night with a home run. Tony has he not been improving over the last two weeks?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:36 am

ironmike wrote:Nick Johnson 2-4 last night with a home run. Tony has he not been improving over the last two weeks?


You won't see him until September.. at earliest.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:22 pm

I for one am not in favor of replacing LaPorta yet, esspecially in favor of Nick Johnson.

It'll be Juan Gonzalez 2.0. First at bat, instead of tearing his hamstring again, Johnson's wrists will explode the first time his swing connects with a pitch.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:56 pm

ironmike wrote:Nick Johnson 2-4 last night with a home run. Tony has he not been improving over the last two weeks?


Doing okay, but long way to go. Reports I have gotten on him still not good and he needs more time. I believe he wont be an option until September, if even then.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:30 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
ironmike wrote:Nick Johnson 2-4 last night with a home run. Tony has he not been improving over the last two weeks?


Doing okay, but long way to go. Reports I have gotten on him still not good and he needs more time. I believe he wont be an option until September, if even then.

FWIW, I have been watching all Clipper games on the tube and Johnson's progress is encouraging but not yet ML level offensively or defensively IMO. I think most of us can agree that LaPorta has developed into decent defensive 1B and Johnson used to be a fine 1B but that isn't the case now from what I see. I also do not see him helping against LHP but I think he might be more use off the bench since he is much better defensively than Santana even now and pinch hitting. If they do bring him up pre-September, which I do not think is likely, it would likely mean Hannahan would no longer be a defensive option at 3B/1B. Not a huge loss with Donald to spell Chis but a loss nonetheless. :pleasantry:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:49 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
ironmike wrote:Nick Johnson 2-4 last night with a home run. Tony has he not been improving over the last two weeks?


Doing okay, but long way to go. Reports I have gotten on him still not good and he needs more time. I believe he wont be an option until September, if even then.

FWIW, I have been watching all Clipper games on the tube and Johnson's progress is encouraging but not yet ML level offensively or defensively IMO. I think most of us can agree that LaPorta has developed into decent defensive 1B and Johnson used to be a fine 1B but that isn't the case now from what I see. I also do not see him helping against LHP but I think he might be more use off the bench since he is much better defensively than Santana even now and pinch hitting. If they do bring him up pre-September, which I do not think is likely, it would likely mean Hannahan would no longer be a defensive option at 3B/1B. Not a huge loss with Donald to spell Chis but a loss nonetheless. :pleasantry:
Losing Hannahan would be a big loss, defensively. While Hoover Hannahan isn't exactly reminding anyone of the next coming of Adrian Gonzalez, his defense has been better than anyone could have expected. Hannahan's superior defense in run prevention will go further to reduce runs scored than Nick Johnson's ability to produce runs with his bat in the near team.. Johnson's only chance for a spot on this roster is due to injury.. Hopefully, that won't come to pass...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:39 pm

Funny how life works... I passed Drew Pomeranz stuck in traffic on the interstate this morning. Read on the Rox site he was going to AZ to workout on Wed.

Ubaldo and Carmona are a world apart IMO. No comp. there other than velo. Carmona has been a great disappointment for his skill level.
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