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Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

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Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:35 am

The Indians organization has improved in MANY areas over the past couple of seasons, especially in the draft. Would like to see our GM be allowed to make a significant multi-player blockbuster trade from a proactive positon (meaning, not players with expiring contracts to cut payroll) in order to take this team to a championship level sooner than later. Don't see the fans really getting behind this team until this is done.

Tony has mentioned the likes of Matt Kemp. I'm sure there are others of equal consideration. We need more young, talented players in their prime that can BALANCE our roster.

Getting an aged, veteran at the deadline isn't going to help this team.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:52 am

Indians have never nor will likely never be in on blockbuster deals where they are acquiring the big name player. We can demand it all we want, but just not happening.

Trades are going to be of the Kenny Lofton circa 2007 variety, or getting a player in the last year of his deal a la Ken Hill in 1995.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:20 am

TonyIPI wrote:Indians have never nor will likely never be in on blockbuster deals where they are acquiring the big name player. We can demand it all we want, but just not happening.

Trades are going to be of the Kenny Lofton circa 2007 variety, or getting a player in the last year of his deal a la Ken Hill in 1995.

The idea that a free agent or "big name" signing is the panacea to what ails the young Wahoos has to be dispelled from the top down. Our owner, Mr Dolan, has stated, he'll spend when the time is right and he has. The signings of Alex White, Drew Pomeranz and several "over slot" players is evidence. Competing with the New York Yankees or Boston Red Sox in the high risk/no return Free Agent market is just not in the works. The joy of watching young players develop and become good to great major leaguers is part of the show and is IN THE WORKS. Instant results are not...

The Indians are building the club with impact draftees and astute trades. The balance of the the club is made up of a small number of, hopefully, savvy veterans that have more to offer than how they perform on the field. This approach is not a mystery... it's just not 'sexy enough' for the casual fan base who are looking for instant gratification in the form of a "Josh Hamilton" type result. While patience is a virtue and we all want to be virtuous, the reality is the casual fan isn't satisfied.. GOOD.. the casual fan shouldn't be satisfied.. but they shouldn't let the negativism of the fair weather fan cloud what is a plan that is truly working. It is time to believe..
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:46 am

Per Antonetti ... For instance, when does it make sense to give up young players, who might offer six to seven years of productivity, for a stretch-run veteran? "We've played good baseball so far, and if we continue to do that and we remain in the race then we'll look to try to do something if we can," he said. "But, again, that's going to be a balance, and whether or not we're able to execute something doesn't mean we won't be exploring every opportunity."

This is why I like the option of making a blockbuster trade. The dynamic shifts from just giving up a young player for a rental. A blockbuster can provide more building blocks and level out the roster. In a trade we can acquire young players with service time still in the equation. Also, it takes astute baseball GM's to engage, let's see what Antonetti is made out of.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:31 am

ironmike wrote:Per Antonetti ... For instance, when does it make sense to give up young players, who might offer six to seven years of productivity, for a stretch-run veteran? "We've played good baseball so far, and if we continue to do that and we remain in the race then we'll look to try to do something if we can," he said. "But, again, that's going to be a balance, and whether or not we're able to execute something doesn't mean we won't be exploring every opportunity."

This is why I like the option of making a blockbuster trade. The dynamic shifts from just giving up a young player for a rental. A blockbuster can provide more building blocks and level out the roster. In a trade we can acquire young players with service time still in the equation. Also, it takes astute baseball GM's to engage, let's see what Antonetti is made out of.



Came you know the last deal where a young proven non free agent to be was traded, Find me a recent deal were this has occurred. It plain and simply does not because of the dynamics and fiance of the game. A team might get 2 years from a player if they get him a trade but thats the longest anyone gets
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:39 am

It has to be the right situation and good for both teams. You have to think that a package of Phelps, McCallister or Barnes, Judy or Putnam, and a lower level good spec like Soto is quite valuable to a team looking to add some pieces for the present and future. The Indians couldn't land top pitching prospects for CC, Cliff, or Victor so I don't think they would have to give up Knapp, White, or Pom. Just my pov.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ChadS17 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:06 am

If we can get a year and a half of a big name for the package that Chip proposed, I'm all in. Half of that is the returns of Peralta and Kearns, though. :biggrin:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Chip Davis wrote:It has to be the right situation and good for both teams. You have to think that a package of Phelps, McCallister or Barnes, Judy or Putnam, and a lower level good spec like Soto is quite valuable to a team looking to add some pieces for the present and future. The Indians couldn't land top pitching prospects for CC, Cliff, or Victor so I don't think they would have to give up Knapp, White, or Pom. Just my pov.


The Indians got Knapp in the Lee deal....who was a top 50 prospect in all of baseball at the time of the deal. Carrasco was no slouch either (though his stock was falling). Odd that you say we wouldn't have to give up Knapp...when we got him in a deal for Lee.....

We got Masterson (not a spec, but good young pitcher) and Hagadone (a top pitching prospect) for Victor as well.

If you recall too, the Tribe was focused on bats when moving CC.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:11 pm

jellis wrote:
ironmike wrote:Per Antonetti ... For instance, when does it make sense to give up young players, who might offer six to seven years of productivity, for a stretch-run veteran? "We've played good baseball so far, and if we continue to do that and we remain in the race then we'll look to try to do something if we can," he said. "But, again, that's going to be a balance, and whether or not we're able to execute something doesn't mean we won't be exploring every opportunity."

This is why I like the option of making a blockbuster trade. The dynamic shifts from just giving up a young player for a rental. A blockbuster can provide more building blocks and level out the roster. In a trade we can acquire young players with service time still in the equation. Also, it takes astute baseball GM's to engage, let's see what Antonetti is made out of.



Came you know the last deal where a young proven non free agent to be was traded, Find me a recent deal were this has occurred. It plain and simply does not because of the dynamics and fiance of the game. A team might get 2 years from a player if they get him a trade but thats the longest anyone gets


I'm assuming you really meant when was the last time a young, proven guy was traded with more than 2 years left? Cause Zach Grienke this winter with 2 full years left, proven with a Cy Young. Mark Teixeira was traded with a year and a half left (young and proven) and I'd throw Vic and Lee in there as well (though guess you could say they weren't 'young').

A longer one would be Matt Garza, though he was no 'star' (though a proven young talent). He had 3 years left when dealt to the Cubs this offseason.

I do agree though...deals like that are not too common.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:59 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:It has to be the right situation and good for both teams. You have to think that a package of Phelps, McCallister or Barnes, Judy or Putnam, and a lower level good spec like Soto is quite valuable to a team looking to add some pieces for the present and future. The Indians couldn't land top pitching prospects for CC, Cliff, or Victor so I don't think they would have to give up Knapp, White, or Pom. Just my pov.


The Indians got Knapp in the Lee deal....who was a top 50 prospect in all of baseball at the time of the deal. Carrasco was no slouch either (though his stock was falling). Odd that you say we wouldn't have to give up Knapp...when we got him in a deal for Lee.....

We got Masterson (not a spec, but good young pitcher) and Hagadone (a top pitching prospect) for Victor as well.

If you recall too, the Tribe was focused on bats when moving CC.


I guess my point was they wanted Draybek and Brown who were both ranked higher than Knapp, who was injured at the time of the trade, and Carrasco was slipping in their rankings. It took Roy Freakin Halladay to get Draybek. The reality is teams rarely if ever give up their top prospects, especially pitching. The Red Sox gave us 3 good arms but were thought to be bullpen guys for Victor. My guess is that the Indians would have taken Bucholz for Victor straight up and we see how that ended. What pitching outside of Bryson(bullpen) did we get for the best LHP in the game? The only reason we landed LaPorta is because the Brewers were just about to ink Braun to a multi year deal with Hart in RF and Fielder at 1b. I'd bet they would like to take Brantley back at this point in time. Trading your top prospects for soon to be free agents doesn't work anymore. Even the large market teams have stopped doing it.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Prosecutor » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:59 pm

Trading your top prospects for soon to be free agents doesn't work anymore. Even the large market teams have stopped doing it.


Well, not all of them. The Yankees gave up McAlister for soon-to-be-free agent Austin Kearns last year. Although McAlister was having a down year and probably wasn't considered a "top prospect".

I can see the Tribe doing another Max Ramirez for Kenny Lofton type of deal if they can get this sinking ship righted and are still in contention at the trading deadline. Max was a good prospect but the Tribe had VMart so he was more expendable than some of their other guys.

The Indians have a plethora of pitching prospects. They also have too many left-handed hitters. I could see them looking to move a pitching prospect along with Travis Buck and maybe somebody in A ball for a veteran right-handed bat. Come to think of it, they traded three minor league pitchers for Mark DeRosa and he gave them 50 RBIs in half a season. If they can find a right-handed bat to balance the lineup I could see them working from a position of strength and dealing a couple of pitching prospects.

Obviously they won't be acquiring Albert Pujols, but I could see them doing something similar to the Lofton and DeRo deals. David Wright is the guy I want. He had 5 HRs and 16 RBIs in April before hurting his back. Obviously he'd have to pass a physical and the Mets would probably have to pay some of his salary, but a healthy Wright in place of Hannahan would improve this team immensely.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby daingean » Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:26 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Trading your top prospects for soon to be free agents doesn't work anymore. Even the large market teams have stopped doing it.


Well, not all of them. The Yankees gave up McAlister for soon-to-be-free agent Austin Kearns last year. Although McAlister was having a down year and probably wasn't considered a "top prospect".

I can see the Tribe doing another Max Ramirez for Kenny Lofton type of deal if they can get this sinking ship righted and are still in contention at the trading deadline. Max was a good prospect but the Tribe had VMart so he was more expendable than some of their other guys.

The Indians have a plethora of pitching prospects. They also have too many left-handed hitters. I could see them looking to move a pitching prospect along with Travis Buck and maybe somebody in A ball for a veteran right-handed bat. Come to think of it, they traded three minor league pitchers for Mark DeRosa and he gave them 50 RBIs in half a season. If they can find a right-handed bat to balance the lineup I could see them working from a position of strength and dealing a couple of pitching prospects.

Obviously they won't be acquiring Albert Pujols, but I could see them doing something similar to the Lofton and DeRo deals. David Wright is the guy I want. He had 5 HRs and 16 RBIs in April before hurting his back. Obviously he'd have to pass a physical and the Mets would probably have to pay some of his salary, but a healthy Wright in place of Hannahan would improve this team immensely.


David Wright is out with a stress fracture in his lower back. That is a scary injury for this season anyway.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Bearcatbob » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:55 pm

Can we end this discussion of what we need? We need to get on with spending our money on draft signings and moving our prospects into the majors for experience. Yes - time to wait for next year.

The real question is how did April happen?

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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:07 pm

Bearcatbob wrote:Can we end this discussion of what we need? We need to get on with spending our money on draft signings and moving our prospects into the majors for experience. Yes - time to wait for next year.

The real question is how did April happen?

Bob


I don't think it's time to pack up our balls and give up, but we definitely should not be buyers come the trading deadline. Truthfully, we shouldn't be sellers either. The division is still very winnable and everyone on the Indians seems to be slumping at the same time. Everyone just needs to relax, be patient, and realize that the team is still 1 year ahead of schedule.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:03 am

Is picking up a ML veteran enough? We need a couple of more stars and to balance out the roster.

1. A better than average young RH hitter, Matt Kemp,

2. Another experienced starting pitcher preferrably LH

The one player the Indians should consider and go big for is McCutcheon from the Pirates.
He would change the dynamic of the Indian's offense.

Hoping Antonetti is proactice, unlike his predecessor.

This AL Central division can be had, but not with the team we have today. Getting a chance
to WIN does not come often, the front office needs to be opportunistic.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:18 am

DOn't see it Mike. Aside from vets in the last 1-2 years of a deal, they are not trading for any mega-star guy in a blockbuster trade. We can disagree with that all we want and debate it, but that's just how they are going to operate. Likely never will see a blockbuster trade nor free agent signing.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:07 am

This organization just can't seem to hit on all cylinders.

The best way to build a World Series winner is to get players every possible way.
That includes trading ML players and organizational depth for ML players.

Hopefully they will surprise us.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Edible14 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:59 am

ironmike wrote:This organization just can't seem to hit on all cylinders.

The best way to build a World Series winner is to get players every possible way.


[citation needed]

What blockbuster deals did San Francisco engage in for last year's run? When's the last time the Yankees flipped a veteran for some prospects? How many people on the Phillies roster were claimed off waivers? How many players on the Red Sox were acquired through the rule 5 draft?

Answer Key: None, forever ago, zero (unless we're counting 40, in which case 1... Brian Bocock) and zero

Teams are better off not using certain ways of acquiring players. For the Indians, they're better off not exploring the high-priced market.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:04 am

Indian's offensive struggles still revolve around the lack of an impact RH professional hitter who can drive in runs. If they don't get it fixed, and the answer is NOT in Columbus, it will continue to wear down their pitching staff.

They need to make a player for player trade.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby hoof32 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:30 am

The Dodgers GM called, he says we can have Matt Kemp for the following:

Michael Brantley
Drew Pomeranz
Chiz n' Kipnis
$10 million dollars (to pay Manny R)
Clarence's stolen Nakamichi tape deck

Oh and they want Carlos Santana back, in return for Casey Blake which will stabilize our 3B problem.

So, I guess we'll have that to look forward to... Matt Frickin' Kemp!!!
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:49 am

ironmike wrote:Indian's offensive struggles still revolve around the lack of an impact RH professional hitter who can drive in runs. If they don't get it fixed, and the answer is NOT in Columbus, it will continue to wear down their pitching staff... They need to make a player for player trade.

You've mentioned two players, both right handed outfielders who qualify as impact RH professional hitters who can drive in runs (McCutcheon & Kemp) along with a veteran starting pitcher, preferably left handed as the solution to what ails the Indians.

For the moment, disregarding the current and future cost of either one's acquisition, this would certainly infuse the Indians offense with exactly what is needed.. The addition of a veteran starter, perhaps a lefty, also improves the Indians chances of winning now. So, a minimum of two and possibly three players will do it.

I agree..

And then, reality set in....

Matt Kemp: has a 2011 salary of $6.95 million and has one year (2012) of arbitration eligibility remaining, meaning Frank McBroke would still be on the hook for another $ 3.5 MM the day before a trade happened. Also, with the NL MVP type numbers he's putting up, expect a salary increase in ARB III in 2012 to be around three times that. The net effect would be the Indians adding approximately $ 20 MM in salary. Additionally, the Dodgers would require players in trade in return.. Who those players are?. you haven't suggested anyone, but, they're prospects, so they're less valuable.. or so your argument has been couched..

Does this sound even remotely like the way the Indians conduct their business?

You don't think so either..

Andrew McCutcheon has a base salary of $ 425K for the 2011 season and will be entering into his first of three arbitration years starting in 2012. For the Pirates, he is the face of their franchise. He is what Grady Sizemore was three years ago for the Indians.. IF he's traded (not likely), he's going to be "uber" expensive in terms of talent to acquire. Who that includes, is unknown at this time.

If you think the price tag in pieces/parts for a three month rental and an ARB III was expensive for Matt Kemp, you'll be shocked by what the Pirates will want for this superb hitting young OF'er. In other words.. it's not happening. Perhaps you have another 'direction" to consider?

These two "studs", albeit exactly what will fix the Indians, just aren't available making your comments 'ring' as being unrealistic. Sorry..
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:30 am

Geronimo ... which means?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:04 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo ... which means?


I'm just guessing, but I'm guessing what it means is this:

The Indians will not trade legit prospects for a rent-a-player. That's absolutely short-sighted and it runs counter to the way they do business. We all know this.

There are no veterans on this team that will get you a player like Matt Kemp. The Dodgers will not be interested in the likes of Austin Kearns, OCAb, Durbin, Buck, etc. Maybe... MAYBE... you could argue Carmona (not for the Dodgers, as that would defeat the purpose of a salary dump for them), but trading him is problematic for a number of reasons. Contenders wouldn't want him for the same reasons he's a headache for us now. Non-contenders wouldn't want him because he makes money and would cost a prospect... which is the exact opposite way that those trades should go. The only way you offload Carmona for anything decent is by finding a financially secure team that doesn't mind either sucking (none exist) or putting him into the bullpen (Do you really want to see Carmona in a Yankees/Red Sox uniform?).

That's not to say the Indians won't make any moves. But they won't be of the high-priced blockbuster variety. They will be of the "opportunistic, vulture-like" variety. Maybe they'll try to pick up a rent-a-player who can contribute and will only cost them a C-level prospect (like Kluber). That's... about all you can expect. As much as we were all banging the drum for Kemp earlier... I think he's firmly out of our grasp at this point.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:14 am

ironmike wrote:Geronimo ... which means?

Which means the players you've identified, while more than adequate for solving the problems identified with the Indians, won't be coming this way now or any time in the foreseeable future. It's pretty easy to say: why don't the Indians trade for a player like "Manny Ramirez in his prime" or Carlos Gonzalez, but this isn't 'fantasy baseball'. The Indians need to look for other players that meet the needs (performance and financial) that have a more realistic chance at being acquired.

Names that you might consider: Mike Morse, Nats (1B/SS/3B/OF) or Gabby Sanchez, Marlins (1B). I am certain there are others, but, at this time, with so many clubs at least tacitly in the playoff race, there just aren't a lot of players that would "fit"..

btw.. my comments were not meant disrespectfully.. if they were taken that way, I sincerely apologize..
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:18 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:Names that you might consider: Mike Morse, Nats (1B/SS/3B/OF) or Gabby Sanchez, Marlins (1B). I am certain there are others, but, at this time, with so many clubs at least tacitly in the playoff race, there just aren't a lot of players that would "fit"..


I'd definitely look at getting a guy like Morse (though pretty much a OF/1B only). Would be interesting to see just what the Nats will be looking for the guy. Sanchez.....well probably a better chance of the Marlins trading Hanley Ramirez than Sanchez. Sanchez is cheap, hitting well, and under team control....not the type of guys the Marlins look to move.

Guy who the Tribe could look at from Florida could possibly be Omar Infante. He's really struggling but he's very versatile, had 3 straight solids seasons (though 2 as a utility guy), is pretty cheap, and is a free agent so Florida doesn't gain a ton by keeping him (other than maybe a draft pick). Could be a decent buy low guy this summer
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby criznit2009 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:13 pm

well if we are throwing names out there - I got one and it wouldn't cost us much to get a look as he has just become a FA...... Mr. Jorge Cantu - can play 1st and 3rd in a pinch. Not too old but definitely suspect and he would be CHEAP by ML prices. Might be able to get him in on a contract similar to Nick Johnson. Speaking of which, at this point come July 1st - I let him walk if that is the decision he chooses to make. Would be nice to have, but hasn't exactly proven his worth yet. If he is smart, he will stick around and get healthy and look to join the team later this season.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby entertheshoe » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:40 pm

There really aren't many options.

C Santana
1B LaPorta
2B Phelps/Cabrera
SS Cabrera
RF Choo
CF Sizemore
LF Brantley
DH Hafner

To me, all of these guys are here to stay. The only positions I see that can really be considered (offensively) is 3B and right handed outfield bat. Here's a list of 3B and OF that are free agents next year. (stars have an option for next year)

3B
Wilson Betemit KC
Casey Blake LAD *
Eric Chavez NYY
Mark DeRosa SF
Greg Dobbs PHI
Edwin Encarnacion TOR *
Wes Helms FLA
Melvin Mora ARI
Aramis Ramirez CHC
Miguel Tejada SF
Omar Vizquel CWS

Blake and Aramis Ramirez are the only ones that I see as an upgrade over Hannahan that is both RH and not playing terribly. Add in Cantu, who isn't listed as a 3B in this list.

OF
Bobby Abreu LAA *
Rick Ankiel WAS
Carlos Beltran NYM
Milton Bradley SEA
Pat Burrell SF
Mike Cameron BOS
Coco Crisp OAK
Michael Cuddyer MIN
Jack Cust SEA
Johnny Damon TB
David DeJesus OAK
J.D. Drew BOS
Jeff Francoeur KC *
Kosuke Fukudome CHC
Jonny Gomes CIN
Gabe Gross OAK
Vladimir Guerrero BAL
Carlos Guillen DET
Scott Hairston NYM
Willie Harris NYM
Raul Ibanez PHI
Conor Jackson OAK
Andruw Jones NYY
Austin Kearns CLE
Jason Kubel MIN
Ryan Ludwick SD
Hideki Matsui OAK
Nate McLouth ATL *
Jason Michaels HOU
Laynce Nix WAS
Magglio Ordonez DET
Juan Pierre CWS
Juan Rivera TOR
Cody Ross SF
Grady Sizemore CLE *
Matt Stairs WAS
Nick Swisher NYY *
Marcus Thames LAD
Josh Willingham OAK

The only players on that list which seem to fit the parameters of being a RH bat that isn't too expensive are Ryan Ludwick and Josh Willingham.

:dunno:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:23 pm

The search will need to expand players outside of Kemp and McCutcheon. Although McCutcheon is worth a ton.

What other impact RH professional hitter are out there? There is got to be one if the Indians want balance and improvement. Can't all happen via the minor league candidates.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:28 pm

ironmike wrote:The search will need to expand players outside of Kemp and McCutcheon. Although McCutcheon is worth a ton.

What other impact RH professional hitter are out there? There is got to be one if the Indians want balance and improvement. Can't all happen via the minor league candidates.


There is a list of about forty names above your posting..pick one.. pick six.. and see if they meet your own criteria...
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:18 pm

Josh Willingham was a guy I had in mind earlier in the season. He's a little more questionable now, because not only has he had a bad season to date, but he's been dealing with an achilles injury that's had him in and out of the lineup for the past month. The A's have won 6 in a row, but are still in last place... and are doing that winning without Willingham in the lineup anyway. He's making $6 million in the last year of his contract, and trading for him shouldn't mortgage the future in prospects... especially he can't prove he's completely recovered from the achilles injury before the trade deadline.

Even struggling against lefties this year, he's hitting for power against them -- .211/.291/.465 -- and lifetime against lefties he's at .261/.378/.493. He's not going to win any batting titles (or Gold Gloves), but he's a really patient hitter and will eventually get the pitcher to offer up something he can drive.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:03 pm

entertheshoe wrote:There really aren't many options.

C Santana
1B LaPorta
2B Phelps/Cabrera
SS Cabrera
RF Choo
CF Sizemore
LF Brantley
DH Hafner

To me, all of these guys are here to stay. The only positions I see that can really be considered (offensively) is 3B and right handed outfield bat. Here's a list of 3B and OF that are free agents next year. (stars have an option for next year)



Blake and Aramis Ramirez are the only ones that I see as an upgrade over Hannahan that is both RH and not playing terribly. Add in Cantu, who isn't listed as a 3B in this list.


The only players on that list which seem to fit the parameters of being a RH bat that isn't too expensive are Ryan Ludwick and Josh Willingham.

:dunno:


I would throw in Swisher to your OF list. He is not a RH bat (switch hitter though), but he hits lefties WAY, WAY, WAY better than a guy like Ludwick. His OPS is near 1.000 this year and career well over .800. He's your moneyball bat too as he will get on base even when he's struggling (like now). He's picked it up a bit of late though.....and who knows if the Yanks would actually deal him since they are as always in the hunt (and if the season ended today, we'd be facing them in the Divisional Series). Course his OPS is over 1.000 in June....so barring an overwhelming offer, he's staying put.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:30 am

Moves the Indians Might Want to Consider. All they have to do is stay close during the season. With four teams winning now, any kind of hot streak in September can win the division. How many times have we seen in recent memory a team hot at the end of the year do very well in the playoffs?

If we can't make a player for player trade, the team needs to find ways to use Jason Donald and Nick Johnson (if healthy) at the ML level. What we need right now from the right side of the plate is a Toby Harrah type player. Not sure one is out there or they would open the check book to acquire on. Plus, Chisenhall is coming quickly.

Doesn't matter what Johnson is hitting at Cbus, he'll do just fine with the Indians. When he's right, he's terrific. Hits for average, drives in runs and walks more than he K's. He might be our Toby Harrah. Donald looks very much like a young Bucky Dent and if the Indians let him settle in ONE position he will continue to improve and contribute. Really like the way he plays the game. With Choo out we will need another professional bat, Johnson could be the guy. If healthy, we won't miss a beat with Johnson replacing Choo except for base running and outfield defense.
With our struggling offense these are the two best guys to promote to help the situation.

Hannahan becomes a late game defensive player at either corner position. Plus, to take it one step further if Donald plays 3B let Phelps be either one of the utility guys or play 2B full time and move OCab via the market. Get Kipnis here to compete for the 2B job or all around utility player.

One last thing, having both Duncan and Kearns here diminishes flexibility. They should consider bringing Carerra back for one of the other OF back up.

These moves improve the offense and defense. Only really tough decision would be Ocab. He's proved to be a great player on contending teams for many seasons. Possibly, the intangibles keep him with the Indians. More than likely he'll remain an Indian.

The call ups:

Donald, Johnson & Kipnis / Carerra
Ocab is traded
Kearns is released
Choo to the DL

* Maybe they will surprise us and bring up Chisenhall instead.

Carmona? He needs a kick in the ass, maybe more than one. Maybe Bugsy Julio kicking him in the ass all the way around the bases??? (I'd pay to see that!) Remember when Colon would not pitch inside and Charlie Manuel found a way to get through to him. Charlie threatened to send him to Buffalo. Might have to bench Carmona since he can't be optioned.

Also, Masterson about LH hitters giving him difficulty. With Belcher's permission, would have Dennis Eckersley spend a few days with him. An ex-Indian, Eck had the very same problem when he was with us. As he matured with the Red Sox he found ways to correct this glaring issue. He went on to be a big time starter and closer for many years. Masterson can be terrific as well, Eckersley could really help him. Their deliveries and arm angles are very similar.

The Indians are getting better. We need Antonetti to be shrewd during the next 6 weeks. Hope he listens to Mike Hargrove's input.

MM
Last edited by ironmike on Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:16 am

Is there a way to get Johnson and Hafner both on the roster without hurting the team in some other fashion numbers wise (ie one less reliever or one less bench player) - and can Johnson play first and stay healthy?
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:11 am

As of today, his wrist is still sore from major surgery, but he is progressing. He only has one extra base hit at Cbus. Terry Pluto will have more info on Nick Johnson tomorrow in his PD columnn.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:59 pm

Guys, Nick Johnson is not ready to play in the MLs. While he shows occasional flashes of his former self, that is all it is. There are many tells that give this away but most prominent among them is that his plate discipline is sorely lacking at this point. The idea that he would somehow get better in the majors is fanciful optimism IMO. We already have one example of what happens when a player is not ready to perform at the ML level because of injuries in Grady. I actually think Weglarz is closer to being an option than Johnson.

OTOH, I think iron is correct when it comes to Jason Donald. He is much further along in this injury rehab than Johnson from what I see. He is not going to be a power hitting savior against LHP but he will be a better option than what we have now. Although I expect him to return to Cleveland at the all star break, it would not surprise me to see him as early as the Yankee series along with LaPorta both of whom should be a huge improvement in our IF defense from Everett and Santana/Buck.

The OF situation is pretty bleak IMO. Brantley's injury/slump only magnifies the problem that Sizemore, Kearns and Buck cannot hit ML pitching at this time. At least all three can defend reasonably well. Valbuena does not look particularly comfortable in LF but I think he might be the best option for the offense in the short term. In the absence of a trade, I don't expect a lot of positive production from the OF. :pleasantry:
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:06 am

A tweet from Buster Olney:

@Buster_ESPN
Buster Olney
Remember what must happen for Carlos Beltran trade to happen: Mets would probably have to eat $5-$7 million--and take Grade B-/C+ prospect.

Beltran's salary for half a season would be about $9M. If the Mets eat about $6M that leaves about $3M. The better the prospect they receive, the more money they would eat. He also said he would waive his "no-trade" clause for a contender - which we are.
I would make an attractive offer. Something like Valbuena and choice of Scott Barnes/de la Cruz/Huff.

Pros:
- You don't touch our "A" prospects.
- You don't touch our present pitching staff.
- You probably win the AL Central
- When you loose Beltran to free agency - you are awarded an extra draft pick.
- By staying in the race - better attendance allows you to afford Beltran
- (I hesitate to add this one) Ownership proves to fans they are "in it - to win it". :aggressive:

Cons: ??
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:47 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:A tweet from Buster Olney:

@Buster_ESPN
Buster Olney
Remember what must happen for Carlos Beltran trade to happen: Mets would probably have to eat $5-$7 million--and take Grade B-/C+ prospect.

Beltran's salary for half a season would be about $9M. If the Mets eat about $6M that leaves about $3M. The better the prospect they receive, the more money they would eat. He also said he would waive his "no-trade" clause for a contender - which we are.
I would make an attractive offer. Something like Valbuena and choice of Scott Barnes/de la Cruz/Huff.

Pros:
- You don't touch our "A" prospects.
- You don't touch our present pitching staff.
- You probably win the AL Central
- When you loose Beltran to free agency - you are awarded an extra draft pick.
- By staying in the race - better attendance allows you to afford Beltran
- (I hesitate to add this one) Ownership proves to fans they are "in it - to win it". :aggressive:

Cons: ??


I sort-of like it. I'd prefer to give up either Huff or Gomez/McAllister/Kluber in that scenario. I'm of the mind that both DLC and Barnes are some of our best options going forward. So I'd hesitate to part with them for a half year of Beltran. As it is, I see our rotation shaking out like this in a few years:

White
Pomeranz
Carrasco
Masterson
DLC/Barnes
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:10 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:A tweet from Buster Olney:

@Buster_ESPN
Buster Olney
Remember what must happen for Carlos Beltran trade to happen: Mets would probably have to eat $5-$7 million--and take Grade B-/C+ prospect.

Beltran's salary for half a season would be about $9M. If the Mets eat about $6M that leaves about $3M. The better the prospect they receive, the more money they would eat. He also said he would waive his "no-trade" clause for a contender - which we are.
I would make an attractive offer. Something like Valbuena and choice of Scott Barnes/de la Cruz/Huff.

Pros:
- You don't touch our "A" prospects.
- You don't touch our present pitching staff.
- You probably win the AL Central
- When you loose Beltran to free agency - you are awarded an extra draft pick.
- By staying in the race - better attendance allows you to afford Beltran
- (I hesitate to add this one) Ownership proves to fans they are "in it - to win it". :aggressive:

Cons: ??


price is rising a lot I have read, many teams are interested Boston, Philly, pretty much every team with an OF hole is looking at beltran right now. I have been pimping him for awhile but I think its less than 10% chance
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ironmike » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:14 am

At the All Star break it seems the Indians not only need another RH hitter but a veteran starting pitcher with playoff experience. Both Talbot and Carmona have the highest ERA's in the league. Huff, Gomez or McAllister fills one spot, but asking two rookies to make an impact is almost impossible to ask for. If Alex White can return then we don't need to go outside the organization. Yes, he is a rookie, but demonstrated special qualities in his 3-4 starts. He has the moxy to pitch in a pennant race.

Hopefully the RH hitter we obtain won't be a strike out artist. Hoping the player we get knows how to take a walk besides drive in runs.

A Livian Hernandez, as a starting pitcher might help us down the stretch, if need be. He's old, knows how to pitch and might be affordable. I'm sure there are others, but this team needs two additional starting pitchers in the second half to win the division. When you get a chance to WIN you go for it.

They'll more than likely give Talbot and Carmona their turns in the rotation up to the deadline to see if they can turn it around. Hope they can. If not, hoping the combination of White and another rookie can fill out our rotation. If White can't return, then we need to go outside the organization.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:04 am

I sort-of like it. I'd prefer to give up either Huff or Gomez/McAllister/Kluber in that scenario.


Come on those are four 5th starters (at best). If thats all it would take then Beltran would already be traded. Maybe a #6-10 prospect plus a #10-15 plus take on half his salary would get them at least interested. They might take Gomez or McAllister but probably only as the 3rd best prospect in a deal. They would probably want a hitter back in the deal but I dont know that the Indians have anyone in the minors that would fit in a deal like that.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:22 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
I sort-of like it. I'd prefer to give up either Huff or Gomez/McAllister/Kluber in that scenario.


Come on those are four 5th starters (at best). If thats all it would take then Beltran would already be traded. Maybe a #6-10 prospect plus a #10-15 plus take on half his salary would get them at least interested. They might take Gomez or McAllister but probably only as the 3rd best prospect in a deal. They would probably want a hitter back in the deal but I dont know that the Indians have anyone in the minors that would fit in a deal like that.


LeVon Washington as PTBNL :biggrin:

Also, we have C-depth...so Chen is an attractive option. The Mets 100% want a 1st round talent in that deal to start negotiating since they'd get that as compensation if they'd just keep Beltran.

As I see it, it'd take at least something like McAllister/Barnes + Weglarz + Chen for Beltran + comp pick (should net you a Weglarz/Chen-like spec back)
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:55 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
I sort-of like it. I'd prefer to give up either Huff or Gomez/McAllister/Kluber in that scenario.


Come on those are four 5th starters (at best). If thats all it would take then Beltran would already be traded. Maybe a #6-10 prospect plus a #10-15 plus take on half his salary would get them at least interested. They might take Gomez or McAllister but probably only as the 3rd best prospect in a deal. They would probably want a hitter back in the deal but I dont know that the Indians have anyone in the minors that would fit in a deal like that.


Right. I don't really care if the deal is done or not. I'm just saying that one of those + a C-level prospect hitter (Like Valbuena, Fedroff, etc.) would be all I would really be interested in giving up for a half year of Carlos Beltran, especially when the team would have to pick some of his salary. If that's not going to get it done, then move on.

Barnes and DLC are guys who can be solid starters for this team for a few years. Trading them for a rental is not worth it, long-run.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Tondo » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:03 am

Barnes was a 7th or 8th rounder....we'd get a comp pick for Beltran too, who, talent wise, already levels the loss of a Barnes/DLC etc...it will take much more than this to get Beltran who is a top OF

I'd be ok givin up Barnes + Chen (or LeVon as PTBNL) + Judy/Putnam/Herrmann for Beltran AND a high comp pick...that would be a fair deal imho and probably still not enough.

Beltran in the lineup instead of the crap trifecta of Kearns/Duncan/Buck would be huge for this lineup

Brantley
ACab
Santana
Pronk
Beltran
Sizemore
Chis
LaPorta
OCab/Valbuena

Would look so much better...and probably help out the other hitters (less pressure, better pitches)
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:33 am

If the Indians would pay his remaining salary then they wouldn't have to send much in return and that's the route I would go or scrap the idea.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby ACrank » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:46 pm

Beltran would be an interesting pick up, but i just can't see the Indians picking up enough salary to make that deal work.

i'd forget getting an experienced starting pitcher too, unless it's one that fans would like to complain about. Everything that i am hearing says that type of starter is just not available. But it could be a good year for right handed relievers - should the team go after one to prop up the back end of the pen?
Last edited by ACrank on Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:48 pm

Chip Davis wrote:If the Indians would pay his remaining salary then they wouldn't have to send much in return and that's the route I would go or scrap the idea.



no way that happens sorry, too much money
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby jellis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:56 pm

Tondo wrote:Barnes was a 7th or 8th rounder....we'd get a comp pick for Beltran too, who, talent wise, already levels the loss of a Barnes/DLC etc...it will take much more than this to get Beltran who is a top OF

I'd be ok givin up Barnes + Chen (or LeVon as PTBNL) + Judy/Putnam/Herrmann for Beltran AND a high comp pick...that would be a fair deal imho and probably still not enough.

Beltran in the lineup instead of the crap trifecta of Kearns/Duncan/Buck would be huge for this lineup

Brantley
ACab
Santana
Pronk
Beltran
Sizemore
Chis
LaPorta
OCab/Valbuena

Would look so much better...and probably help out the other hitters (less pressure, better pitches)


you do not get a comp pick, his contract states he can not be offered arb so you get nothing, I was the first to push for beltran but its nto happening best chance because of salary and demand are guys like Escobar, Francouer, hell even jamey carroll would be a nice bench guy who plays against lefties
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Chip Davis » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:18 pm

jellis wrote:
Chip Davis wrote:If the Indians would pay his remaining salary then they wouldn't have to send much in return and that's the route I would go or scrap the idea.



no way that happens sorry, too much money


No need for an apology as I agree. I was just trying to emphasize my unwillingness to part with any top specs.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby Hermie13 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:31 pm

jellis wrote:you do not get a comp pick, his contract states he can not be offered arb so you get nothing, I was the first to push for beltran but its nto happening best chance because of salary and demand are guys like Escobar, Francouer, hell even jamey carroll would be a nice bench guy who plays against lefties


Yeah to me this is huge. Seen a number of people talking about a comp pick for Beltran. You get NOTHING when he walks due to how his contract is worked up. Probably why teams are hesitant to give up a lot for him.
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Re: Improvements in many areas but we still need ...

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:54 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:you do not get a comp pick, his contract states he can not be offered arb so you get nothing, I was the first to push for beltran but its nto happening best chance because of salary and demand are guys like Escobar, Francouer, hell even jamey carroll would be a nice bench guy who plays against lefties


Yeah to me this is huge. Seen a number of people talking about a comp pick for Beltran. You get NOTHING when he walks due to how his contract is worked up. Probably why teams are hesitant to give up a lot for him.


C"mon guys. It's the all-star break, and like it or not, we are contenders! But the chances of this lineup winning are 0%. The pitchers have to be perfect every game. Acquiring more pitching that would be effective would be WAY too expensive. Players like Francour would make about as much difference as bringing up Jerad Head (now there's an idea).
So you don't get a comp pick for Beltran, So what? That makes him less expensive. Did you see the post that listed him in our lineup? He would make a huge difference.

The idea of a farm system is to replenish the big club with players, or use the prospect in a trade to help the big club. The time has come. The idea is to win the American League, not the International League.
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