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Uggla or Cantu?

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Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:58 am

I'm sure this has been talked about before...but I'm bringing it up again in light of the recent Nats/Marlins trade.

The Marlins reportedly have traded OF/1B Willingham and SP Olsen to the Nationals for Emelio Bonifacio and 2 minor leaguers. Bonificio plays 2B (and has played SS and the OF). The Marlins already have one of (if not the) top 2B prospect in baseball in Coghlan who should start in AAA next year. With this addition of Bonaficio to the mix...could open them up to trading one of Cantu or Uggla.

They've said they won't trade Uggla unless blown away with an offer.....not sure what that would take. but recent reports have said they're lookign for an upgrade at catcher. Now are they taling a backup to replace the lackluster Treanor or an improvement over Baker the starter? Baker had a nice OBP last year.....could be starter, but with the loss of Willingham and Jacobs, they may want some more power. Kelly Shoppach could be of interest to them. Throw in Laffey/Huff (depth starter in case of injury),a top prospect (Hodges) or player (Barfield), and young bullpen arm (Stevens) and maybe we could land one of Cantu/Ugga for our IF spot.

Neither is anything special with the glove (though Uggla isn't as bad as made out to be at 2B), but their bats are strong. Uggla has 25-30 HR power and has been playing in that thing they call a ballpark in Florida. Progressive Field should do nothing to hurt that power. He'd be a great 5-6 hole hitter for us. Same can be said for Cantu. Neither guy is too pricy ($5-6M for Uggla, $2-3M for Cantu...both in arbitration). Uggla has 3 years of contralability left. Same with Cantu I believe. Cantu has some flexibility on the IF too (can play 2B and 1B as well).


You never know exactly what Florida will do when it comes to payroll....I know they've said they're increasing it.....but we'll see.....
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:46 pm

I would only trade Shoppach straight up for Uggla, the Nats got a decent SP and OF for a 2B/SS and a couple A Ball players, Shoppach would be equivalent for Uggla in my eyes.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:08 pm

ha, no way is Shoppach of equal value to Uggla. Shoppach strikes out even more (or at worse pace) and doesn't have quite the power he has. Florida would never take that trade.....'maybe' Cantu for Shoppach but even that is iffy.....
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Jake Taylor » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:33 pm

They're stating that Cantu is likely to head to 1B with the shift of Uggla to 3B, to help both of their defensive numbers. However, that once again would hold back Gaby Sanchez who will look to take over the every day role at 1B for the Marlins next season.

The Marlins definitely have a big need at C, and unless they expect Cantu to convert to the OF it could indeed put Uggla or himself on the trading block. While I think the asking price for Uggla will be high, I don't think it would be more than Shoppach, a pitcher, and a prospect.

I think the Marlins would jump at the opportunity to get Shoppach, Laffey, and Crowe in the deal as Hermida could be on the move as well.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby carnegie44115 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:38 pm

Hermie13 wrote:ha, no way is Shoppach of equal value to Uggla. Shoppach strikes out even more (or at worse pace) and doesn't have quite the power he has. Florida would never take that trade.....'maybe' Cantu for Shoppach but even that is iffy.....



Maybe that is true, but I still wouldn't trade the amount you suggested earlier unless a guy like Gregg was included in the deal
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:09 pm

Jake Taylor wrote:They're stating that Cantu is likely to head to 1B with the shift of Uggla to 3B, to help both of their defensive numbers. However, that once again would hold back Gaby Sanchez who will look to take over the every day role at 1B for the Marlins next season.

The Marlins definitely have a big need at C, and unless they expect Cantu to convert to the OF it could indeed put Uggla or himself on the trading block. While I think the asking price for Uggla will be high, I don't think it would be more than Shoppach, a pitcher, and a prospect.

I think the Marlins would jump at the opportunity to get Shoppach, Laffey, and Crowe in the deal as Hermida could be on the move as well.


Unless Hermida is moved (like you said), don't see Cantu moving to the OF (Ross and Maybin are there). They've also got McPherson at 3B who hit 40 HRs in the minors last year in addition to Gaby at 1B. This to me makes one of Cantu or Uggla available, but we'll see. I'd LOVE to grab Hermida from them. I think he's primed for a breakout season this year.


Gregg would be a nice addition to the trade. I'm a fan of him for 1 year in Cleveland. I'd prefer Hoffman though but if that falls through, gregg wouldn't be a bad consolation prize...
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:28 pm

I wouldn't mind acquiring Uggla and moving him to 3B in Cleveland......hmmm.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:37 pm

Consigliere wrote:I wouldn't mind acquiring Uggla and moving him to 3B in Cleveland......hmmm.


I can see that. Played more 3B in the minors than 2B in fact.

Only downside here is him and Jhonny on the same side of the infield......do we really hate Carmona and our other groundball pitchers that much? lol


I think I'd rather go Jhonny at 3B, AC at SS, and Uggla at 2B.....but either way works for me. Uggla's bat is worth the poorer defense. Plus you can use Carroll as a late innig pinch runner for him/defensive replacement.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:47 pm

Fla has maybe the most glaring hole at C, thougb I dont think they need an OF or a 4/5 sp

So if you want Uggla for shoppach straight up I think as an outside chance maybe if the indians include a guy liek Rundles whsoe nto a real spec but cheap and could fit into the fla pen especially since I dont think they have any lefty in there pen and since both uggla and shoppach are arb eliglibe it might work

Side benefit is it opens a 40 man slot
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:59 pm

I was thinking Francisco would be a great 4th OFer for them especially with the loss of Willingham, Gonzalez likely leaving/not being brought back, and Maybin being so young and unproven. They've got 5 young guys in the rotation right now.....Sanchez is coming off TJ surgery and Andrew Miller is still unproven. Having another guy lined up to come up with ML experience would be beneficial.

I was also thinking more like Stevens for them rather than Rundles...though if they lose Rhodes to free agency they may want Rundles.


Just thoughts though.....
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby MickS » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:22 pm

Cantu is nothing special with the glove? That might be the understatement of the decade. Not only can Cantu not play a respectable 3B, he's even a little shaky at 1B. Uggla is nothing special defensively. Cantu is a train wreck with a glove. "hands of stone", wasn't that Tommy LaSorda's not soo affectionate nickname for Mariano Duncan?
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:13 pm

ha, but Cantu can play 2B as well. Not great again, but for his production you can live with it.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:09 pm

Hermie13 wrote:ha, but Cantu can play 2B as well. Not great again, but for his production you can live with it.


All I have to say is be careful what you wish for. Cantu is not a ML 2B or 3B defensively. Uggla is not a 2B defensively. TL might be on the right track about Uggla at 3B but he was not highly thought of defensively at 3B when he was in the minors. Adding Uggla also adds to the feast or famine approach to the offense. But he is an option when options are limited. I think Shoppach is more valuable because of the position he plays and he has defense on his side. I question whether Florida will want an arbitration eligible player as well. Talking about these two definitely makes me yearn for Wes Hodges to be ML ready in short order.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby MickS » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:31 pm

For all of Wes Hodges purported shortcomings defensively, it's hard for me to imagine that he couldn't meet Cantu/Uggla standards at 3B. Bring him on!
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:57 pm

MickS wrote:For all of Wes Hodges purported shortcomings defensively, it's hard for me to imagine that he couldn't meet Cantu/Uggla standards at 3B. Bring him on!


That's about the way I feel about his plate discipline too. I know he isn't ready and would prefer a short term solution like Atkins but the only thing that is worse than the 3B market is the 2B market.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Wed Nov 12, 2008 1:46 am

I'd pass on both...
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 12, 2008 9:30 am

Uggla was actually league average at 2B defensively. People focus too much on his play in the All-Star game. That was bad, no denying it....but he's better than that. He'd be no worse than Baerga at 2B, and having a guy like AC at SS will help (he's been playing with one of the worst defensive SS's in Hanley the last 3 years).


I know Uggla is a 'feast or famine' type player.....but so is Shoppach. He swings for the fences ALL the time, even with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3B. At least Uggla can lay down a bunt for ya. And Shoppach's defense was very subpar this year behind the dish....yeah historically he's been much better.....but the season took a toll on him and he did have offseason knee surgery a few weeks ago....

Hodges won't be any better than Uggla in the pros. Defense will be about the same and his offensive production won't be as high. Plus, there's still a chance of him cracking the lineup. Say Garko struggles in 2009. Could move Uggla to 1B then and let Hodges play 3B in 2010 (he's NOT going to be ready at the start of 2009). We'd have options with Uggla, which would be a good thing. Could package Hodges with a pitcher for another need then as well.

Again though, just some food for thought....
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:14 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Uggla was actually league average at 2B defensively. People focus too much on his play in the All-Star game. That was bad, no denying it....but he's better than that. He'd be no worse than Baerga at 2B, and having a guy like AC at SS will help (he's been playing with one of the worst defensive SS's in Hanley the last 3 years).


I know Uggla is a 'feast or famine' type player.....but so is Shoppach. He swings for the fences ALL the time, even with less than 2 outs and a guy on 3B. At least Uggla can lay down a bunt for ya. And Shoppach's defense was very subpar this year behind the dish....yeah historically he's been much better.....but the season took a toll on him and he did have offseason knee surgery a few weeks ago....

Hodges won't be any better than Uggla in the pros. Defense will be about the same and his offensive production won't be as high. Plus, there's still a chance of him cracking the lineup. Say Garko struggles in 2009. Could move Uggla to 1B then and let Hodges play 3B in 2010 (he's NOT going to be ready at the start of 2009). We'd have options with Uggla, which would be a good thing. Could package Hodges with a pitcher for another need then as well.

Again though, just some food for thought....


I have to wonder where your information on defense is coming from. Have you actually seen these players to any extent? Cantu and Uggla are really awful defensively. Hodges is not as bad on the worst fielding day of his life. What in the world do we need another 1B for? I can assure you that the Tribe is adequately stacked at 1B for the foreseeable future and would have little use for Uggla or Cantu at that position. IMO, Hodges projects a much steadier and productive bat that either Uggla or Cantu. You put yourself out there which I find admirable but I question the validity of your assumptions.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:26 pm

Uggla is already a .260 hitter, you have to expect his numbers to drop on the switch to the AL.

Let's say he's a .250 hitter with good power and no defense....Don't we have enough of that on this team?

I would focus on a glue guy as opposed to a power player for the 2nd base position, especially considering the cost. If they want a power guy, go get Adam Dunn, I'd rather have a solid performer defensively if he is going to hit .250...the power should come from other areas.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:34 pm

TheWord wrote:Uggla is already a .260 hitter, you have to expect his numbers to drop on the switch to the AL.

Let's say he's a .250 hitter with good power and no defense....Don't we have enough of that on this team?

I would focus on a glue guy as opposed to a power player for the 2nd base position, especially considering the cost. If they want a power guy, go get Adam Dunn, I'd rather have a solid performer defensively if he is going to hit .250...the power should come from other areas.


Your point has merit but aren't you describing Jamie Carroll?
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Wed Nov 12, 2008 8:15 pm

Edit: a guy who hits and plays D better than Jamey Carroll

Grudzielenek?

Felipe Lopez?
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:13 am

Uggla would probably see his numbers go up actually moving to Cleveland. Much smaller ballpark (no burmuda triangle and 434 foot deep left-CF in Cleveland like there is in Florida, think of how many HRs that robbed him of....and hits) and the pitching isn't as good in the AL central as it is in the NL East (Minnesota has pitchers.....White Sox have a few and same with KC, but nothing spectacular).

Uggla has more career HRs away from Dolphin Stadium (only 4 though). He could easily be a 35-40 HR and 100-110 RBI guy in Cleveland.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:32 pm

There is a reason most hitters tend to fall coming to the AL. What is that great about the NL Easts pitching?

The NL East has good pitching? Mets have Santana and 4 mediocre/decent guys. Braves have...? Nationals are terrible, and the Phillies had one great starter and uhh...nothing much after that.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:28 pm

santana, pelfry, hamels are better than anyone in the Al central in terms of pitching and jair jurjens for Al was good last year in the AL so I think that argument is quite right
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby endlesssleeper » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:09 pm

Mike Pelfrey is better than anyone in the AL Central??????? I don't know where you are getting that from.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:30 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:Mike Pelfrey is better than anyone in the AL Central??????? I don't know where you are getting that from.


I really like pelfrey and next year who is better. CHi, KC, MIn, DEt none of them have a real ace. I think greinke or danks might be the best of them. Name a pitcher right now who you can say for sure is better than pelfrey if you look at his numbers

Though in general to me Hamles, Sanatan, and Pelrey where the best 3 pitchers by the end of last year and I dont think the AL top 3 of Greinke, Danks, and Verlander compare

especially when you look at all of Verlanders issues
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:13 am

TheWord wrote:There is a reason most hitters tend to fall coming to the AL. What is that great about the NL Easts pitching?

The NL East has good pitching? Mets have Santana and 4 mediocre/decent guys. Braves have...? Nationals are terrible, and the Phillies had one great starter and uhh...nothing much after that.


Hudson was better than any pitcher in the AL central (other than Lee pitching for us). Pelfrey is better than just about any pitcher in the AL Central...but I'd take a few over him.

The question should be, what's great about the AL central pitching? The answer is not much.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:07 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I have to wonder where your information on defense is coming from. Have you actually seen these players to any extent? Cantu and Uggla are really awful defensively. Hodges is not as bad on the worst fielding day of his life. What in the world do we need another 1B for? I can assure you that the Tribe is adequately stacked at 1B for the foreseeable future and would have little use for Uggla or Cantu at that position. IMO, Hodges projects a much steadier and productive bat that either Uggla or Cantu. You put yourself out there which I find admirable but I question the validity of your assumptions.


Yes, I have seen these players. And Uggla is not that awful at 2B. +/- wise he's about average for the league. Not a top guy, but not a guy in the bottom 5 either.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby endlesssleeper » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:48 am

Those saying Pelfrey is better than almost anyone in the AL central are crazy. The guy has one good season where he posted 13ish wins and an era in the 3.7s. Who is better and has proven more in the AL Central you ask? Buehrle, Lee, Carmona, Greinke, Meche etc.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:04 pm

You can't count Carmona (who had ONE good season of his own) and Lee as they both pitch for the Indians (who Uggla wouldn't have to face if he came to Cleveland). Meche also isn't the greatest pitcher. Solid, but nothing special.

Buehrle is good, I'll give you him.....but still not better than Santana or Hamels in the NL East....and not really any better than Hudson either.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:15 pm

Few are, but Uggla probably only faced them a maximum of 7 or 8 times last season.

There are a few GREAT pitchers in that division, but few good staffs.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 2:13 pm

There's few good staffs in the AL Central. Chicago had the 4th best rotation, Minnesota the 8th, KC the 10th, and Detroit the 11th.

the NL central.....Mets had the 5th best rotation, Philly was 7th, Atlanta 11th, and Nats were 13th.

Neither division is that great on pitching. Uggla would likely have similar results that Miggy Cabrera had, which included career highs in RBIs and HRs. Yeah, the average and OPS went down some, but he was playing a new position as well. Got off to a slow start but was one of the best hitters in the second half in the AL.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:55 pm

Hermie13 wrote:There's few good staffs in the AL Central. Chicago had the 4th best rotation, Minnesota the 8th, KC the 10th, and Detroit the 11th.

the NL central.....Mets had the 5th best rotation, Philly was 7th, Atlanta 11th, and Nats were 13th.

Neither division is that great on pitching. Uggla would likely have similar results that Miggy Cabrera had, which included career highs in RBIs and HRs. Yeah, the average and OPS went down some, but he was playing a new position as well. Got off to a slow start but was one of the best hitters in the second half in the AL.


As a quoter of statistics, you do very well. You can always find statistics to support almost anything. I do not find anything in the statistics you have quoted that would convince me that there is anything that would cause a valid case for superiority of either division. There are so many factors that go into the success of pitching staffs that to make an unequivocable statement based on one single unnamed statistical reference is not compelling.

Neither is your reference to Miguel Cabrera. If you look closely, you will see that Cabrera had his worst hitting performance while he was comfortably ensconced at 3B, a position he has tried to play for a number of years. The overweight hitting machine was moved to 1B, a place where he could do less damage but was no less inept, and his hitting improved markedly. I agree that Uggla is a valid comparison to Cabrera's defensive prowess, or the lack thereof. I hardly think that you can compare the super hitting, party animal fatboy to Uggla on an offensive basis. There is nothing to support that comparison in terms of past performance or skill level. They do share defensive competence however since either will be among the worst defensive players at any position but DH. :s_scratchhead
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:48 pm

Well said indiansink.

Well said.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:06 pm

it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sat Nov 15, 2008 8:06 am

jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:15 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:17 am

jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked


Wow, you said a mouthful but I have to wonder about your suppositions. Why do you think Donald is available? Philly seems to be grooming him for utility work which is consistent with scouting reports. He doesn't appear to have nearly enough arm to play the left side of the IF on a regular basis in the majors. He has a decent bat but he does not appear to have as much pop or ability with men on base as Hodges. I think he is even some what older. He might be a 2B with a year or two of work but I fail to see what good he would do us next year. Not a compelling pick to upgrade IMHO. And you cannot reasonably speak of a marginal AA SS in the same breath as a proven ML catcher as similar value as trading blocks.

Headley is a pipe dream! I live in San Diego and he is not going anywhere unless the offer is so spectacular that it would be ridiculous. San Diego is cutting costs and are not likely to trade their best low cost prospect. And where did you get the idea that these two guys represent a huge upgrade in plate discipline? I accept the fact that I am not stat oriented but this one doesn't require any higher math.

I like your enthusiasm but I am thinking there are better alternatives. :s_drinks
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:23 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked


Wow, you said a mouthful but I have to wonder about your suppositions. Why do you think Donald is available? Philly seems to be grooming him for utility work which is consistent with scouting reports. He doesn't appear to have nearly enough arm to play the left side of the IF on a regular basis in the majors. He has a decent bat but he does not appear to have as much pop or ability with men on base as Hodges. I think he is even some what older. He might be a 2B with a year or two of work but I fail to see what good he would do us next year. Not a compelling pick to upgrade IMHO. And you cannot reasonably speak of a marginal AA SS in the same breath as a proven ML catcher as similar value as trading blocks.

Headley is a pipe dream! I live in San Diego and he is not going anywhere unless the offer is so spectacular that it would be ridiculous. San Diego is cutting costs and are not likely to trade their best low cost prospect. And where did you get the idea that these two guys represent a huge upgrade in plate discipline? I accept the fact that I am not stat oriented but this one doesn't require any higher math.

I like your enthusiasm but I am thinking there are better alternatives. :s_drinks



Donald has been rumored to be out there since he is blocked in the majors. He would have decent pop for a SS or 2B. I know Headley is a pipe dream. Donald is actually 10 days younger than Hodges. Donald is 92 games walked 47 times, Hodges 52 in 133. And living in SD you should know headley is a potential 80 year a walk guy. I am far from the biggest Hodges fan bad defense, lots of k's, and marginal power make it seem to me that the indians need to find some option not only for next year but for the future. Perralta and Hodges can not ever play on the same side of an infield if we plan to have laffey or Carmona pitcher with us

One last note, I didnt mean same value for Donald and Shoppach meant that for each team its there only real big trade bullet
sorry sowers/laffey and any of are OF are not hugely valuable on there own
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:26 am

jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked


Wow, you said a mouthful but I have to wonder about your suppositions. Why do you think Donald is available? Philly seems to be grooming him for utility work which is consistent with scouting reports. He doesn't appear to have nearly enough arm to play the left side of the IF on a regular basis in the majors. He has a decent bat but he does not appear to have as much pop or ability with men on base as Hodges. I think he is even some what older. He might be a 2B with a year or two of work but I fail to see what good he would do us next year. Not a compelling pick to upgrade IMHO. And you cannot reasonably speak of a marginal AA SS in the same breath as a proven ML catcher as similar value as trading blocks.

Headley is a pipe dream! I live in San Diego and he is not going anywhere unless the offer is so spectacular that it would be ridiculous. San Diego is cutting costs and are not likely to trade their best low cost prospect. And where did you get the idea that these two guys represent a huge upgrade in plate discipline? I accept the fact that I am not stat oriented but this one doesn't require any higher math.

I like your enthusiasm but I am thinking there are better alternatives. :s_drinks



Donald has been rumored to be out there since he is blocked in the majors. He would have decent pop for a SS or 2B. I know Headley is a pipe dream. Donald is actually 10 days younger than Hodges. Donald is 92 games walked 47 times, Hodges 52 in 133. And living in SD you should know headley is a potential 80 year a walk guy. I am far from the biggest Hodges fan bad defense, lots of k's, and marginal power make it seem to me that the indians need to find some option not only for next year but for the future. Perralta and Hodges can not ever play on the same side of an infield if we plan to have laffey or Carmona pitcher with us

One last note, I didnt mean same value for Donald and Shoppach meant that for each team its there only real big trade bullet
sorry sowers/laffey and any of are OF are not hugely valuable on there own


I misunderstood your comment about the value of Donald and Shoppach but I have not seen any rumors about Donald on the blogs or elsewhere. He is an ideal utility player and it looks like the phillies are grooming him for that in the AFL. He just does not have the arm for anything but 2B/LF. Irrespective of that, he is not going to help the Indians next year so what is the point?

Hey, you omitted the Ks for Headley and Donald. Why would you overlook that? Yeah, Headley could have 80 walks and he could also have upwards of 150 Ks. Donald sure misses his share of pitches as well. And I think it unlikely he would defend 3B nearly as well as Hodges and he is not as good at SS as Peralta since he cannot throw well enough at either position.

You may be right that we wouldn't get a #3 starter or decent closer straight up for one of our Lefties or corner OFs one on one but i am not sure they might not bring some value in return.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:06 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked


Wow, you said a mouthful but I have to wonder about your suppositions. Why do you think Donald is available? Philly seems to be grooming him for utility work which is consistent with scouting reports. He doesn't appear to have nearly enough arm to play the left side of the IF on a regular basis in the majors. He has a decent bat but he does not appear to have as much pop or ability with men on base as Hodges. I think he is even some what older. He might be a 2B with a year or two of work but I fail to see what good he would do us next year. Not a compelling pick to upgrade IMHO. And you cannot reasonably speak of a marginal AA SS in the same breath as a proven ML catcher as similar value as trading blocks.

Headley is a pipe dream! I live in San Diego and he is not going anywhere unless the offer is so spectacular that it would be ridiculous. San Diego is cutting costs and are not likely to trade their best low cost prospect. And where did you get the idea that these two guys represent a huge upgrade in plate discipline? I accept the fact that I am not stat oriented but this one doesn't require any higher math.

I like your enthusiasm but I am thinking there are better alternatives. :s_drinks



Donald has been rumored to be out there since he is blocked in the majors. He would have decent pop for a SS or 2B. I know Headley is a pipe dream. Donald is actually 10 days younger than Hodges. Donald is 92 games walked 47 times, Hodges 52 in 133. And living in SD you should know headley is a potential 80 year a walk guy. I am far from the biggest Hodges fan bad defense, lots of k's, and marginal power make it seem to me that the indians need to find some option not only for next year but for the future. Perralta and Hodges can not ever play on the same side of an infield if we plan to have laffey or Carmona pitcher with us

One last note, I didnt mean same value for Donald and Shoppach meant that for each team its there only real big trade bullet
sorry sowers/laffey and any of are OF are not hugely valuable on there own


I misunderstood your comment about the value of Donald and Shoppach but I have not seen any rumors about Donald on the blogs or elsewhere. He is an ideal utility player and it looks like the phillies are grooming him for that in the AFL. He just does not have the arm for anything but 2B/LF. Irrespective of that, he is not going to help the Indians next year so what is the point?

Hey, you omitted the Ks for Headley and Donald. Why would you overlook that? Yeah, Headley could have 80 walks and he could also have upwards of 150 Ks. Donald sure misses his share of pitches as well. And I think it unlikely he would defend 3B nearly as well as Hodges and he is not as good at SS as Peralta since he cannot throw well enough at either position.

You may be right that we wouldn't get a #3 starter or decent closer straight up for one of our Lefties or corner OFs one on one but i am not sure they might not bring some value in return.


I omitted K's because Hodges rate is just as bad but with out the higher walk totals. On ESPN specifically Keith Law has mentioned him as trade bait, but who knows that could be just him talking out his ass. Donald i think can play a SS and a good 2B. I also feel like Donald might be to help a team by June, or at least at worst by the time Hodges can and I feel like he can do more.

Our extra parts are nice filler or extra in deals i do not deny that they have value.The issue to me is none can centerpiece a trade for a player who can really help us next year.

I still feel like we need an upgrade in that IF. I have no problem getting the best 3B/2B/SS, out there. I still think Blake wont be back, its his first and only time as a FA and he will follow the money as he deserves.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:57 am

jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
jellis wrote:it still stands that Uggla might be the best choice at this point though, I would still rather try and get a younger player like Jason Donald or Chase Headley who might be able to make this team out of ST and help out or at least be ready by mid year and who can hit and play solid defense


You think those players are available? At what price? if that is what you want, what is the difference between these guys and Hodges? Not much IMO but that's just an opinion.



Donalds defiantly is, Headley might be since hes blocked at 3B and not a natural OF. I think they have much bigger upside then Hodges both are better defender, better plate patience, hit for higher avgs

I know Donald is the Philly equivalent of shoppach, their major trade piece and time will tell what they need

Headley would be a lot harder just might be a small chance since his natural position is blocked


Wow, you said a mouthful but I have to wonder about your suppositions. Why do you think Donald is available? Philly seems to be grooming him for utility work which is consistent with scouting reports. He doesn't appear to have nearly enough arm to play the left side of the IF on a regular basis in the majors. He has a decent bat but he does not appear to have as much pop or ability with men on base as Hodges. I think he is even some what older. He might be a 2B with a year or two of work but I fail to see what good he would do us next year. Not a compelling pick to upgrade IMHO. And you cannot reasonably speak of a marginal AA SS in the same breath as a proven ML catcher as similar value as trading blocks.

Headley is a pipe dream! I live in San Diego and he is not going anywhere unless the offer is so spectacular that it would be ridiculous. San Diego is cutting costs and are not likely to trade their best low cost prospect. And where did you get the idea that these two guys represent a huge upgrade in plate discipline? I accept the fact that I am not stat oriented but this one doesn't require any higher math.

I like your enthusiasm but I am thinking there are better alternatives. :s_drinks



Donald has been rumored to be out there since he is blocked in the majors. He would have decent pop for a SS or 2B. I know Headley is a pipe dream. Donald is actually 10 days younger than Hodges. Donald is 92 games walked 47 times, Hodges 52 in 133. And living in SD you should know headley is a potential 80 year a walk guy. I am far from the biggest Hodges fan bad defense, lots of k's, and marginal power make it seem to me that the indians need to find some option not only for next year but for the future. Perralta and Hodges can not ever play on the same side of an infield if we plan to have laffey or Carmona pitcher with us

One last note, I didnt mean same value for Donald and Shoppach meant that for each team its there only real big trade bullet
sorry sowers/laffey and any of are OF are not hugely valuable on there own


I misunderstood your comment about the value of Donald and Shoppach but I have not seen any rumors about Donald on the blogs or elsewhere. He is an ideal utility player and it looks like the phillies are grooming him for that in the AFL. He just does not have the arm for anything but 2B/LF. Irrespective of that, he is not going to help the Indians next year so what is the point?

Hey, you omitted the Ks for Headley and Donald. Why would you overlook that? Yeah, Headley could have 80 walks and he could also have upwards of 150 Ks. Donald sure misses his share of pitches as well. And I think it unlikely he would defend 3B nearly as well as Hodges and he is not as good at SS as Peralta since he cannot throw well enough at either position.

You may be right that we wouldn't get a #3 starter or decent closer straight up for one of our Lefties or corner OFs one on one but i am not sure they might not bring some value in return.


I omitted K's because Hodges rate is just as bad but with out the higher walk totals. On ESPN specifically Keith Law has mentioned him as trade bait, but who knows that could be just him talking out his ass. Donald i think can play a SS and a good 2B. I also feel like Donald might be to help a team by June, or at least at worst by the time Hodges can and I feel like he can do more.

Our extra parts are nice filler or extra in deals i do not deny that they have value.The issue to me is none can centerpiece a trade for a player who can really help us next year.

I still feel like we need an upgrade in that IF. I have no problem getting the best 3B/2B/SS, out there. I still think Blake wont be back, its his first and only time as a FA and he will follow the money as he deserves.


Jellis, you know I would not post on Ks if i did not know the answer and it was favorable. Keith Law = Moron with a mike. you can be excused for everything but even considering anything that dumb shit says is worth repeating. Don't get me wrong on Donald. He could be a valuable addition. Possible 2B but better UT I think. Just does not help at beginning of next year. Maybe for Crowe or Francisco. I agree we need help in the IF. I am looking for a good one year solution. If trades do not work out, I might take a shot at Crede on an incentive filled contract. BTW, I might be wrong about Headley. In addition to the usual crap about Hoffman interested in the Indians, there was some mention on SD sports talk (the ultimate in BS) that Cleveland was mentioned as a 3rd club in a Chicago/SD trade involving Peavy. No, Cleveland does not get Peavy. Chicago does. Word was that Cleveland got a couple of high level prospects. I really doubt there is anything to it.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:11 am

holy overuse of the quotes.......


As far as my 'unnamed' reference....it was ERA (can find it on any baseball stat site). Cabrera started hitting once he got used to the league change. ALL of Detroit's hitters seemed to struggle to start the year, not just Cabrera. Don't think it was the move to 1B that helped him as much as finally getting acquainted with the league and having the hitters around him pick it up.


I just see Uggla as the best option out there. If you're gonna go young with a Donald, why not just start Barfield at 2B and move AC & Jhonny over? He's got some pop and would be as good as Donald this year. Headley would be nice, but the Padres are looking to move Kouzmanoff to make room for him...he's not going anywhere.

Roberts is a great option, but sounds like he'd be a LOT harder to get....plus you only get him for 1 year as opposed to 3 with Uggla. Uggla is also cheaper money-wise than Roberts.

Atkins would be switching leagues, plus leaving a hitters park where his numbers are MUCH better than on the road. Encarnacion would be switching leagues and is worse defensively than Uggla. Beltre will cost $12M.....if Putz is included would be nice, but don't see that happening.

So who's a better fit than Uggla for us? Howie Kendrick or Figgins with the Angels would probably be.....but not sure how available either is. Kelly Johson would be nice from Atlanta......which has a very outside possiblity of happening should the Tribe try and get in on a 3-team deal with them for Peavy (Peavy going to ATL). Padres want some depth starters....we can provide 2 lefties (2 of Laffey, Lewis, Sowers, Huff) and still be ok assuming we sign/trade for a #3 starter. Not a very likely scenario......but crazier things have happened.....
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby TheWord » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:23 pm

On a team full of base cloggers who play bad defense and strike out a ton, he would fit right in with the rest of them.

Unfortunately that doesn't make him a good fit in terms of the production of this team.

JMO.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:39 pm

No, it doesn't. But being a productive hitter and playing average defense does make him a good fit on this team. would be a great #5-6 hitter on this club.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:11 pm

I agree hes the best optinion out there at this point and sure you get another Peralta but is thatr eally a bad thing, we need production and the optinions are very very limited, I would love a guy who doesnt strike out and adds speed but so would every other team. That guy was supposed to be Crowe but the transition to 2B failed and it slowed hsi developlement by a lot.

It gets down to this if not Uggla who
Roberts? asking price to much
Hudson? decling D and high salary
beltre? Big money and is medicore for the first half the year
atkins? col factor
Johnson? Atl wont trade him to after peavy is traded
Figgins/Kendrick? who knows if there out there
Donald? not ready
Renteria? looked bad last year
Caberara? all glove no stick
In house? carrol, barfield, marte none are everyday guys

I look at those and think at least Uggla gives you pop, some walks, and wont cost a kigns ransom in salary or prospects
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby GhostofTedCox » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:25 pm

After careful consideration, I think Dan Uggla should be our top target this off season. I realize that the Marlins have cooled to the idea of trading him. I also realize his defense is only adequate at best. But I think he is what we need most.

(I'd put a closer as 2nd priority, and a SP as third.)

I think our biggest need on the roster is some pop. Remember, there is no guarantee that Hafner will return to form. (and because of his contract, he is not replaceable). Also, Garko's production has dropped off. Also it's better than 50-50 that we will loose Shoppach's power because he will be traded.

Other offensive infielders don't seem likely. Too hard to get Brian Roberts. Too expensive and risky for Orlando Hudson.
Uggla could also DH if Hafner totally flops and needs to be benched. :s_bomb Do we have anyone else in the organization that could do this?

The Marlins will make a deal if they get the prospects they want, and right now, we are pretty deep in that category.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:41 pm

I still stick with Beltre as the best choice but Boston media is reporting that the Red Sox and the Indians are discussing a trade centered around Kelly Shoppach and Mike Lowell. It appears that the deal is being talked about in the context of the Red Sox signing Texeira. According to one of the sources, the hangup is that Boston wants to pick up a portion of Lowell's salary and the Indians want players instead. Not sure how I feel about this particular deal. Lowell is a professional in every sense of the word but his offense benefits greatly from fenway from what I see. However, if the transaction were to include one of Boston's young relievers, I might be more enthusiastic. Of course, the fact is the Boston media is completely full of shit may color my opinion as well.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby jellis » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:08 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I still stick with Beltre as the best choice but Boston media is reporting that the Red Sox and the Indians are discussing a trade centered around Kelly Shoppach and Mike Lowell. It appears that the deal is being talked about in the context of the Red Sox signing Texeira. According to one of the sources, the hangup is that Boston wants to pick up a portion of Lowell's salary and the Indians want players instead. Not sure how I feel about this particular deal. Lowell is a professional in every sense of the word but his offense benefits greatly from fenway from what I see. However, if the transaction were to include one of Boston's young relievers, I might be more enthusiastic. Of course, the fact is the Boston media is completely full of shit may color my opinion as well.


I hate the deal, if it has any truth. I just dont trust lowell to stay healthy at all and really didnt like what I say from him last year.
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Re: Uggla or Cantu?

Postby endlesssleeper » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:52 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I still stick with Beltre as the best choice but Boston media is reporting that the Red Sox and the Indians are discussing a trade centered around Kelly Shoppach and Mike Lowell. It appears that the deal is being talked about in the context of the Red Sox signing Texeira. According to one of the sources, the hangup is that Boston wants to pick up a portion of Lowell's salary and the Indians want players instead. Not sure how I feel about this particular deal. Lowell is a professional in every sense of the word but his offense benefits greatly from fenway from what I see. However, if the transaction were to include one of Boston's young relievers, I might be more enthusiastic. Of course, the fact is the Boston media is completely full of shit may color my opinion as well.


Do you have a link for any of this??
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