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Top 50 Countdown

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Top 50 Countdown

Postby GhostofTedCox » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:52 pm

Tony, I love the Top 50 Countdown. It's the first sign of spri,,,er,mid-winter. Great information on kids that a lot of us might not have seen very often. I love the video included. :clapping:

Have you ever considered a DVD version of the book? Or how about a STO 2-hour special?
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:53 pm

OK, we're only two days into it and I haven't seen either of these guys play, nor have I talked to any scouts or personnel guys, so what do I know? That being said, I don't see how Roberto Perez can possibly be ranked ahead of Juan Romero based on Tony's write-ups.

Perez is a 22-year-old catcher who hit .217 in low A last year. I get that he's great defensively, but I don't see how any player who hits .217 at age 21 in low A is a prospect at all, much less in the top 50. It's interesting that he draws so many walks, but I think that is a result of facing a lot of wild pitchers in the low minors. If he ever moves up in the system those walk numbers will decrease. Why would you walk a guy who can't hit?

Romero, on the other hand, is five years younger than Perez. At age 17 and weighing only 175 pounds he cranked out 19 extra base hits in only 145 AB's in the Arizona Fall League for a .483 slugging percentage. He also led the league in home runs. If this kid was born in the U.S. he would be a junior in high school. By the way, Perez also played in the AZL last year and hit a robust .159 in 44 ABs against the same pitching, so we're comparing apples to apples.

Tony's write-up of Romero includes the phrases, "incredible raw power", "tons of upside", and "most projection of any third baseman in the system" (which includes the Chiz). I don't see Perez as having much upside at all with that bat, and Tony said in the preview that these rankings are weighted toward projection.

So I don't get why Romero isn't ranked well above Perez instead of just behind him. Fives years from now when Romero is 22 I'll be surprised if he is hitting .217 with no power in low A.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:38 pm

Prosecutor wrote:OK, we're only two days into it and I haven't seen either of these guys play, nor have I talked to any scouts or personnel guys, so what do I know? That being said, I don't see how Roberto Perez can possibly be ranked ahead of Juan Romero based on Tony's write-ups.

Perez is a 22-year-old catcher who hit .217 in low A last year. I get that he's great defensively, but I don't see how any player who hits .217 at age 21 in low A is a prospect at all, much less in the top 50. It's interesting that he draws so many walks, but I think that is a result of facing a lot of wild pitchers in the low minors. If he ever moves up in the system those walk numbers will decrease. Why would you walk a guy who can't hit?

Romero, on the other hand, is five years younger than Perez. At age 17 and weighing only 175 pounds he cranked out 19 extra base hits in only 145 AB's in the Arizona Fall League for a .483 slugging percentage. He also led the league in home runs. If this kid was born in the U.S. he would be a junior in high school. By the way, Perez also played in the AZL last year and hit a robust .159 in 44 ABs against the same pitching, so we're comparing apples to apples.

Tony's write-up of Romero includes the phrases, "incredible raw power", "tons of upside", and "most projection of any third baseman in the system" (which includes the Chiz). I don't see Perez as having much upside at all with that bat, and Tony said in the preview that these rankings are weighted toward projection.

So I don't get why Romero isn't ranked well above Perez instead of just behind him. Fives years from now when Romero is 22 I'll be surprised if he is hitting .217 with no power in low A.



Romero is all projection is the issue. Look at Adam Abreau to see it go array. Perez looks like a decent shot to make !!! or better just because his glove is that good at such a demand position. Romero has skills, but we have seen so many upside guys flame out before A ball, that is why he is 50. He has no floor. Perez on the other hand as the floor of being a 4A C who specialty is defense and handling young pitchers. Ranks aren't just upside in many cases but a mix of floor, ceiling, and flame out chance
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby daingean » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:58 pm

I really do not thing there is much of a ratings difference between 41 and 50. Perez is at a premium defensive position with a ton of skills on the defensive side of the ball. Romero is just projection including his position. Also the rankings are in the eyes of the beholder if we all ranked the top 50 you would see several differences in our lists.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:47 pm

I guess I'm spoiled after six years or so of Victor Martinez. Then after seeing the difference last year between the way the Tribe played with Santana in the lineup versus the way they played with Marson or Gimenez or Redmond, well, let's just say I don't have all that much appreciation for a catcher that is good defensively but can't hit his weight. And I have no confidence that a 21-year-old who hit .217 in low A ball is going to ever hit better than Marson or Gimenez.

Now that 17-year-old who hasn't come close to filling out and who led the AZL in home runs? I'd have to rank him a little higher than Perez, even if it's all projection.

If you had to give one up right now, which one would you keep?
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby daingean » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:34 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I guess I'm spoiled after six years or so of Victor Martinez. Then after seeing the difference last year between the way the Tribe played with Santana in the lineup versus the way they played with Marson or Gimenez or Redmond, well, let's just say I don't have all that much appreciation for a catcher that is good defensively but can't hit his weight. And I have no confidence that a 21-year-old who hit .217 in low A ball is going to ever hit better than Marson or Gimenez.

Now that 17-year-old who hasn't come close to filling out and who led the AZL in home runs? I'd have to rank him a little higher than Perez, even if it's all projection.

If you had to give one up right now, which one would you keep?


It is a nice luxury to have a catcher that can hit like Victor or Carlos but when your catcher is a better hitter than your DH, 1B or 3B then is it that necessary? What I mean is that a catcher will be in the line-up 120 games or so. Yes he can be put at 1B or DH when he doesn't play but he will still sit out about 20 games a season (just to rest him). How much of an advantage is that? Give me a good defensive catcher but offensive studs at 1B, 3B and DH any day (I mention 3B because both Victor and Carlos were 3B before they were converted to catcher). Call me a traditionalist but I think you win with defense up the middle, power at the corners, and speed at the top.

I've seen this the last few years with the Indians (Victor and Carlos) and the Braves (McCann).
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:28 pm

Perez could catch defensively at the big league level right now.

Could Romero play third? I'm talking defensively Perez will see the majors at some point as a defensive specialist whether here or somewhere and he is working on his hitting. Look at him as a college grad. at age 22 how then does he compare?

Five yrs from now Romero should be in the top 5-10 range. i dont think the kid will ever be a high avg. hitter but pure power and a good arm with lots of upside.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby artgold » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:00 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:Perez could catch defensively at the big league level right now.

Could Romero play third? I'm talking defensively Perez will see the majors at some point as a defensive specialist whether here or somewhere and he is working on his hitting. Look at him as a college grad. at age 22 how then does he compare?


Ehhh, similar comments could have previously been made about Wyatt Toregas, and if you read past write ups on this site about Wyatt they seem to reflect current thinking about Perez:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... regas.html

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... wyatt.html

I'm certainly not putting the kid down at all, but I want to be realistic here about where he currently stands and his probability of seeing the majors.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:28 am

Very simply stated: If you can't hit the ball.. and or if you can't catch the ball.. and or if you can't throw the ball.. start looking for a job selling insurance.... Perez's defensive skills behind the dish is a valuable commodity.. but it won't be valuable for any length of time.. if he doesn't hit...that's why he's in the upper forties of this prospect list.. He'll be a bullpen catcher in the future if he keeps hitting the way he has.. the one thing he does do well.. he takes pitches. I'm not certain if that is advantageous or not.. but it something different (i.e... I would love to see him swing so hard he comes out of his shoes.. just to say he did it once)...

Geez.. you boys are gettin your panties in a twist over who is # 49 versus who is # 50... wait until Tony gets to the mid thirties before declaring a jihad...... :s_rofl :rofl:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:43 am

homerawayfromhome wrote:
Five yrs from now Romero should be in the top 5-10 range. i dont think the kid will ever be a high avg. hitter but pure power and a good arm with lots of upside.


That was my point. Five years from now Romero should be way ahead of where Perez is now - great defensively but unable to hit low A pitching for either average or power. That's why I would have ranked him much higher than Perez based on Tony's write-up.

I'm not getting my panties in a bunch about it. The whole point of these rankings is to inform fans about prospects and to generate some discussion.

I also think that if you can't hit better than .217 in low A at age 21 you're never going to hit at the major league level.

A team can get by with a great defensive catcher who is an offensive black hole as long as they have plus bats at 7 or 8 other positions and a great staff, so I'm not counting Perez out. If Santana eventually gets moved to first base and Chen turns out to be a one-year wonder, maybe Perez ends up catching for the Tribe. But the organization's philosophy has been to sacrifice defense for offense at the two key defensive positions (witness VMart and Peralta). They haven't been traditionalists. Perez would have a better chance in an organization with more traditional thinking.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Edible14 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:03 pm

artgold wrote:
homerawayfromhome wrote:Perez could catch defensively at the big league level right now.

Could Romero play third? I'm talking defensively Perez will see the majors at some point as a defensive specialist whether here or somewhere and he is working on his hitting. Look at him as a college grad. at age 22 how then does he compare?


Ehhh, similar comments could have previously been made about Wyatt Toregas, and if you read past write ups on this site about Wyatt they seem to reflect current thinking about Perez:

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... regas.html

http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... wyatt.html

I'm certainly not putting the kid down at all, but I want to be realistic here about where he currently stands and his probability of seeing the majors.


And, last I checked, Toregas did see the big leagues. Sure, it was only 60 ABs and he was far from impressive, but he did make it. And he was major-league caliber depth for the Indians for a few years, a guy who could be called up in a pinch to be the backup catcher. A guy who wouldn't hit terribly well, but played fine defense. That's a valuable player, to be honest. I know it's not Santana/Martinez or even Marson caliber, but it's value.

Catchers that play great defense are useful to any team, even if they're only going to be hitting .200
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:21 am

Sorry, edible, I disagree that good defensive catchers who can't hit are valuable, and I don't agree that Toregas was ever "valuable" to the Indians. You can find guys like Toregas any time.

Last year the Tribe picked up Redmond for nothing. He was a good defensive catcher with no bat. He backed up Marson until they didn't need him anymore, then he was released.

The year before it was Sal Fasano. A year or two before that it was Kelly Shoppach, who was a throw-in on the Andy Marte deal. You can always find a good defensive catcher who can't hit who can be had cheap or signed off the street. That's Perez's upside from what he's shown so far.

While we're at it I also disagree with ranking Jordan Brown about equally with Perez. Brown has his limitations and they are significant, but he did win a AAA batting championship with a .336 average and he's hit at every level of the minors. As Tony said, if LaPorta gets hurt again or doesn't hit, Brown could realistically take over as our starting first baseman sometime this year. Tony said his upside is Sean Casey, who was a solid starter and .300 hitter for a number of years with the Reds. If Brown is 100% healthy this year and gets a chance to play every day with the Tribe, he could establish himself as a starting first baseman who hits .280-.300 with some doubles. He won't hit for power or play good defense so he'll be on borrowed time, but who else do we have right now if LaPorta gets hurt? Shelly Duncan?

I don't see Perez as anything more than a backup catcher, whereas Brown has a shot to be our starting first baseman this year and a Sean Casey type player. It's somewhat of a longshot, but I like him a lot more than Perez. I think a 48 ranking is right for Brown given his age and the fact that no other team wants him on their big league roster, but I would have Perez ranked much lower.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Edible14 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:23 am

Prosecutor wrote:Sorry, edible, I disagree that good defensive catchers who can't hit are valuable, and I don't agree that Toregas was ever "valuable" to the Indians. You can find guys like Toregas any time.

Last year the Tribe picked up Redmond for nothing. He was a good defensive catcher with no bat. He backed up Marson until they didn't need him anymore, then he was released.

The year before it was Sal Fasano. A year or two before that it was Kelly Shoppach, who was a throw-in on the Andy Marte deal. You can always find a good defensive catcher who can't hit who can be had cheap or signed off the street. That's Perez's upside from what he's shown so far.


I'd say that it's actually his floor, as that's the kind of player he is now. If he learns to hit (which is a big if, and the reason he's only ranked #49), he could end up with a job for a long time as a backup C. And even if he's Toregas 2.0, that's still of-value. You'll notice the Indians had to sign guys like Carlin, Phillips and Apodaca to play AAA this year. Signing minor league free agents is more expensive than simply having a guy that can be promoted to the majors in a pinch. Depth is important, and the 3rd and 4th catchers on the org depth chart might still have to be called on due to injuries. You should have a major league ready catcher at these points in the depth chart for that reason. So, yes, Toregas/Perez are valuable. Not as valuable as legit starting options, but still somewhat valuable.

When you're ranking guys in the 40s for an organization, you're talking about C or worse grade prospects. You aren't talking about guys who are going to be superstars. Either they have yet to play in a full season league and are long projections or they're guys with limited upside. There's no reason that Perez shouldn't belong in the top 50 prospects for this org, given that he has a good shot at eventually making the majors (if only for a brief call-up). Maybe you think Romero should be higher, and that's fine. As people have said, 30-50 is mostly fluid, so take that into consideration when reading. But Perez belongs in the top 50, no question.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:44 pm

Prosecutor wrote: A year or two before that it was Kelly Shoppach, who was a throw-in on the Andy Marte deal.


Sorry, but his is absolutely false. I've never heard of a top 10 prospect in one of the best farm systems in baseball (at the time) being a "throw-on" on a deal. Shoppach was (I believe) the 8th ranked prospect in a system that included Jon Lester, Clay Bucholtz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Dustin Pedroia at the time (among others). He was not a throw-in by any stretch of the imagination.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote: A year or two before that it was Kelly Shoppach, who was a throw-in on the Andy Marte deal.


Sorry, but his is absolutely false. I've never heard of a top 10 prospect in one of the best farm systems in baseball (at the time) being a "throw-on" on a deal. Shoppach was (I believe) the 8th ranked prospect in a system that included Jon Lester, Clay Bucholtz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Dustin Pedroia at the time (among others). He was not a throw-in by any stretch of the imagination.


I found a column saying Shoppach was the 7th ranked prospect in Boston's system so you're right on that. But here's a column that refers to him as "slightly more than a throw-in":

http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/ ... 442160.txt

I meant that the principals in the trade were Crisp and Marte. The other players involved were just equalizers.

But even if Shop is a bad example of a throw-in it doesn't change my argument that backup catchers who can't hit big league pitching are not "valuable". They are readily available any time you need one and they don't cost much to get or to keep. The Indians have one right now in Lou Marson, who was a throw-in in the Cliff Lee deal. Every minor league system has a few of these guys. It's the catchers who can rake who are valuable.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Sorry, edible, I disagree that good defensive catchers who can't hit are valuable, and I don't agree that Toregas was ever "valuable" to the Indians. You can find guys like Toregas any time.

Last year the Tribe picked up Redmond for nothing. He was a good defensive catcher with no bat. He backed up Marson until they didn't need him anymore, then he was released.

The year before it was Sal Fasano. A year or two before that it was Kelly Shoppach, who was a throw-in on the Andy Marte deal. You can always find a good defensive catcher who can't hit who can be had cheap or signed off the street. That's Perez's upside from what he's shown so far.


I'd say that it's actually his floor, as that's the kind of player he is now. If he learns to hit (which is a big if, and the reason he's only ranked #49), he could end up with a job for a long time as a backup C.

You're saying if he learns to hit, and that's a big "if", he could end up as a backup catcher. I agree, which is why I don't understand why a longshot to be a backup catcher is ranked right next to a kid with a bigger upside than Chisenhall (says Tony) when projection is supposed to be the most important element of these rankings. Or why he's right next to a AAA batting champion and two-time MVP who's just entering the prime of his career at age 26.

And even if he's Toregas 2.0, that's still of-value. You'll notice the Indians had to sign guys like Carlin, Phillips and Apodaca to play AAA this year. Signing minor league free agents is more expensive than simply having a guy that can be promoted to the majors in a pinch.

How much did it cost to sign Luke Carlin? Sorry, I'm under the impression that minor league free agents don't cost much to sign. I don't think these guys get signing bonuses, they just sign contracts for a certain salary, and I believe there is a minor league scale. So the Tribe pays a AAA free agent catcher pretty much the same as they pay their own catcher they just promoted from AA, right?

Depth is important, and the 3rd and 4th catchers on the org depth chart might still have to be called on due to injuries. You should have a major league ready catcher at these points in the depth chart for that reason.

No, because if you have a rash of injuries you can always purchase a Sal Fasano in mid-season from the Twins AAA club, or wherever he happens to be playing.

So, yes, Toregas/Perez are valuable. Not as valuable as legit starting options, but still somewhat valuable.

I don't think Perez has established any value when he hasn't shown he can hit .220 at low A and he's already 22.

When you're ranking guys in the 40s for an organization, you're talking about C or worse grade prospects. You aren't talking about guys who are going to be superstars. Either they have yet to play in a full season league and are long projections or they're guys with limited upside. There's no reason that Perez shouldn't belong in the top 50 prospects for this org, given that he has a good shot at eventually making the majors (if only for a brief call-up). Maybe you think Romero should be higher, and that's fine. As people have said, 30-50 is mostly fluid, so take that into consideration when reading. But Perez belongs in the top 50, no question.


Maybe he does belong in the top 50. But if Jordan Brown is 48 and Juan Romero is 50, I'd put Perez/Toregas at about 75. I think if you look at the evolution of baseball over the last couple of decades you'll see that most teams are no longer willing to accept an offensive black hole at catcher and shortstop/2nd base in return for a good glove.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:46 pm

Prosecutor:...The Indians have one right now in Lou Marson, who was a throw-in in the Cliff Lee deal. Every minor league system has a few of these guys. It's the catchers who can rake who are valuable.
Marson was considered defensively MLB ready, but needed work with his bat.. he's proven that evaluation to be correct. Marson was pretty sad last year offensively, but more than held his own behind the dish.. He should get better.. at least we hope so...
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Edible14 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:35 am

How much did it cost to sign Luke Carlin? Sorry, I'm under the impression that minor league free agents don't cost much to sign. I don't think these guys get signing bonuses, they just sign contracts for a certain salary, and I believe there is a minor league scale. So the Tribe pays a AAA free agent catcher pretty much the same as they pay their own catcher they just promoted from AA, right?


To my understanding, no. Minor league free agents do make more. Not a lot more, so it's not a huge deal, but also think of this:

Your major league catcher is hurt. Wouldn't it be nice to have a guy at AAA who is a major-league ready backup like Toregas, who has been perhaps working with many of the pitchers who have made their way up to the bigs on your team?

No, because if you have a rash of injuries you can always purchase a Sal Fasano in mid-season from the Twins AAA club, or wherever he happens to be playing.


Not true. You could make a trade for virtually nothing, but you can't just sign a player who is contracted with another team. It's not like practice squads in the NFL.

when projection is supposed to be the most important element of these rankings


Who said this? I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you that Romero has the potential to be far better than Perez ever could be, but projection isn't the only thing. Likelihood of hitting that ceiling, your floor and your chance of flaming out all come into play. But, as I said, these things are fluid, which is why the 40s/30s of these types of countdowns are fluid... just depends on what you value.

Maybe he does belong in the top 50. But if Jordan Brown is 48 and Juan Romero is 50, I'd put Perez/Toregas at about 75


Again, these things are fluid depending on what you value. So, no need to really worry about it.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:35 am

"Who said this?" [that projection is the most important component in the rankings]

Tony said it:

Some may wonder what the basis is behind the rankings. While some people rate prospects purely on results (stats), some on standing (class level/age), and some purely on potential (projection), I try to combine all three to try and strike a balance. Admittedly, I generally favor projection more, especially with the very young kids versus some of the minor league veterans.


"Again, these things are fluid depending on what you value. So, no need to really worry about it."

I agree, and I'm not losing any sleep over it. I just enjoy a good baseball discussion, especially now when the Browns are done and so are the Cavs, for that matter. These rankings give us something to talk about.

By the way, I know you can't just sign a player off another team's roster. But sometimes minor leaguers are purchased for cash, right? Or swapped for another minor leaguer. My point is that guys like Redmond and Fasano are a dime a dozen and can be obtained on the cheap any time. To me Perez looks like he'll be a good-field, no-hit backup catcher who moves around from team to team depending on who needs a short term fix. Not my idea of a top 50 prospect, but I respect other opinions.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:10 pm

A bit about young Mr Perez and his projected path to MLB... Having worn the "tools of ignorance" for many years.. (btw.. the phrase has humble beginnings, first coined/attributed to Herold "Muddy" Ruel).. being able to hold a bat when your fingers are twisted and gnarled from one too many foul tips, pitchers crossing you up and throwing whatever the hell they want (my belief, pitchers, especially lefties, are not the brightest creatures on the face of the earth.. they forget what was called not 3 seconds earlier) and blocking balls in the dirt with whatever you can get in front of the ball.. doesn't make hitting very easy. It's the single most difficult thing to do in sports when you're fully healthy: Take a round ball and a round bat and hit it square. If a catcher doesn't hit for more than his weight.. give him more mashed taters to eat.. Otherwise.. it's all about the defense...
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby daingean » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:41 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:A bit about young Mr Perez and his projected path to MLB... Having worn the "tools of ignorance" for many years.. (btw.. the phrase has humble beginnings, first coined/attributed to Herold "Muddy" Ruel).. being able to hold a bat when your fingers are twisted and gnarled from one too many foul tips, pitchers crossing you up and throwing whatever the hell they want (my belief, pitchers, especially lefties, are not the brightest creatures on the face of the earth.. they forget what was called not 3 seconds earlier) and blocking balls in the dirt with whatever you can get in front of the ball.. doesn't make hitting very easy. It's the single most difficult thing to do in sports when you're fully healthy: Take a round ball and a round bat and hit it square. If a catcher doesn't hit for more than his weight.. give him more mashed taters to eat.. Otherwise.. it's all about the defense...


I would add to this that catchers also get to spend less of their time working on their hitting. I've seen it in HS aged travel ball. Catchers are always in demand to work with the pitchers (bullpen sessions) which takes up most of their practice time. I am sure the same thing happens at the ML level. Teams usually only carry 2 catchers (sometimes 3) with maybe an extra BP catcher.

I know that a lot of times catchers are rated defensively by how they control the running game. I count a lot of things into a good defensive catcher (i.e. calling pitches, handling pitchers, blocking balls, framing pitches). A good defensive catcher can save you .5 - 1 run a game. I can live with catchers with a low BA/OPS if they an save me .5 run or more a game. As far as the running game, catchers can only control a little because most of it has to be controlled by the pitcher.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:18 pm

Jorge Martinez#47 spec. When I saw that picture the first guy I thought of was Jolbert Cabrera.

First time I saw Cabrera was in spring training in FL back when I lived in Clermont. They took Omar out in the 3rd and put this kid in. I'd never heard of him. First ball hit to him he goes deep in the hole and makes a great play & a strong throw that even had Omar on his feet in the dugout. The next batter hits one behind second that he gets to and airmails the throw into the dugout. Kinda typifies his career in one Spring Training inning.

On the current hot topic, I tend to favor the great defensive catcher even he doesn't hit a whole bunch. I do, however, disagree with the Perez/Marson comp. Marson was never considered to be a bad hitting catcher until he got exposed in MLB. He was considered to be a good hitting/OBP guy with a good BB/K ratio and absolutely no power. Perez WISHES he was the hitter Marson is.

I would favor Romero over Perez as well but not by that much. Defense is the sine qua non of the catching position. A really good defensive catcher is really valuable. Romero though, you love to see power in your corner guys.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby gotribe31 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:27 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:A bit about young Mr Perez and his projected path to MLB... Having worn the "tools of ignorance" for many years.. (btw.. the phrase has humble beginnings, first coined/attributed to Herold "Muddy" Ruel).. being able to hold a bat when your fingers are twisted and gnarled from one too many foul tips, pitchers crossing you up and throwing whatever the hell they want (my belief, pitchers, especially lefties, are not the brightest creatures on the face of the earth.. they forget what was called not 3 seconds earlier) and blocking balls in the dirt with whatever you can get in front of the ball.. doesn't make hitting very easy. It's the single most difficult thing to do in sports when you're fully healthy: Take a round ball and a round bat and hit it square. If a catcher doesn't hit for more than his weight.. give him more mashed taters to eat.. Otherwise.. it's all about the defense...


I'm with you GS...pitchers are idiots. Catchers have to stick together. :drinks:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:31 am

Interesting discussion.

After pitching, catching is the #1 commodity that teams crave. So, right there is one reason Perez gets ranked above Romero.

Also, Romero is a wildcard. At 17 and extremely raw, he is all projection and has no history yet, and could really go any direction as a prospect where he shoots up to the Top 10 or falls on his face. Otherwise, if I am going completely on projection, I'd have Romero and lots of there 17-18 Latin and high school kids all in the Top 20. Romero definitiely projects better than Perez, but the key difference is Perez has shown a ton already as a solid hitter (down year with BA last year after solid BA in 09), a much much more advanced approach at the plate, and he is an above average to outstaning defender (depending who you talk to) at a premium position. He is major league capable as a catcher already, has shown tons of growth this winter in the AFL and winter ball in Puerto Rico, and is viewed as someone (barring injury) who will definitely be a major league player. Can't say that at the moment about Romero and his defense is an unknown really still, which is why I put him behind Perez.

In comparison, I put Martinez above both Perez and Romero. Martinez plays a premium position at SS (more important than 3B), is a better defender than Romero, and has a lot of tools. Romero right now really only has the power, though there is potential for more to come.

When doing these rankings, the hardest thing to be to do is balance the youth (16-19 year olds) with lots of upside/projection still versus all the veterans (23-25 year olds) who are in the upper levels with little upside but either at the ML level already or on the cusp of it.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am

Tony, thanks for your response. It's really interesting to hear your rationale as to why one guy is rated above or below another.

One last question about Perez; you stated that he "has shown a ton already as a solid hitter (down year with BA last year after solid BA in 09)". Looking at his stat line, he did hit a ton in the Arizona League in 2009, but I was under the impression that's an extreme hitters' league, with the hard fields and dry air inflating batting averages and power numbers.

After reporting to Lake County, Perez accumulated 428 at-bats between 2009 and 2010, hitting only .220 under non-desert conditions. Do you really put more weight on his AZL stats and consider 2010 a "down year"? Or would you say that the 400+ ABs at LC gives us an accurate picture of his offense right now while the partial season in AZ is the aberration?

One more question with regard to Goedert. Since he still can't play third base at a big league level at age 25, and since we have a lot of ground ball pitchers on our staff, wouldn't it make sense to have him concentrate full time on left field? He might be able to beat out Shelly Duncan for the right-handed power bat off the bench role, and he could also DH when they want to rest Hafner against a lefty.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:54 am

Prosecutor wrote:Tony, thanks for your response. It's really interesting to hear your rationale as to why one guy is rated above or below another.


No problem...good to see you chime in over here. Once I get this book done and have more free time, I plan to start venturing over to the other sites again. TCF included since they serve as STO's message board, so I will be back there chiming in again soon.

One last question about Perez; you stated that he "has shown a ton already as a solid hitter (down year with BA last year after solid BA in 09)". Looking at his stat line, he did hit a ton in the Arizona League in 2009, but I was under the impression that's an extreme hitters' league, with the hard fields and dry air inflating batting averages and power numbers.

After reporting to Lake County, Perez accumulated 428 at-bats between 2009 and 2010, hitting only .220 under non-desert conditions. Do you really put more weight on his AZL stats and consider 2010 a "down year"? Or would you say that the 400+ ABs at LC gives us an accurate picture of his offense right now while the partial season in AZ is the aberration?


In all honesty, I consider batting average a lot less than on-base percentage. Ultimately, the goal is to get on-base, and even with a low average last year he got on base at a very good rate. If he starts to find some holes and consistently gets that average to the .240-.260 range, that's more than capable to hold your own in the big leagues, especially if he has an advanced, patient approach at the plate.

His offense is no doubt his biggest weakness. He was the best hitter in the organization though last year from an approach standpoint, so maybe now that he has that instilled in him he can concentrate more on making better contact and refining his swing. That's the one area that while there is no gaurantee it will ever improve, is what will be almost 100% of his focus in development going forward. His defense is above average or outstanding quality at the major league level already (again, depending on who you talk to).

So while his average was terrible last year, he actually showed a lot of growth as a hitter. He still projects as no more than a major league backup, but has a chance to have a long ML career in that role. There is more value there than for a 17 year old Latin 3B who has lots of raw power but all the other parts of his game are extremely raw and is going to be a project to refine (like all Latin 16-18 yr olds).

One more question with regard to Goedert. Since he still can't play third base at a big league level at age 25, and since we have a lot of ground ball pitchers on our staff, wouldn't it make sense to have him concentrate full time on left field? He might be able to beat out Shelly Duncan for the right-handed power bat off the bench role, and he could also DH when they want to rest Hafner against a lefty.


The problem is he just can't be an everyday outfielder. He lacks the defensive ability to play there everyday. As a complimentary player who plays out there 1-2 times a week, yes....everyday, no. The same problem exists for him at the other positions like third base and first base. He just does not have the defensive ability to play any of those positions day in and day out. Which is why he will be used in a corner utility role playing LF, 3B, 1B, and DH. He would only start full time at 3B, 1B, LF out of necessity where injuries and poor play over the course of the season push him there.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:27 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
One more question with regard to Goedert. Since he still can't play third base at a big league level at age 25, and since we have a lot of ground ball pitchers on our staff, wouldn't it make sense to have him concentrate full time on left field? He might be able to beat out Shelly Duncan for the right-handed power bat off the bench role, and he could also DH when they want to rest Hafner against a lefty.


The problem is he just can't be an everyday outfielder. He lacks the defensive ability to play there everyday. As a complimentary player who plays out there 1-2 times a week, yes....everyday, no. The same problem exists for him at the other positions like third base and first base. He just does not have the defensive ability to play any of those positions day in and day out. Which is why he will be used in a corner utility role playing LF, 3B, 1B, and DH. He would only start full time at 3B, 1B, LF out of necessity where injuries and poor play over the course of the season push him there.


Thanks for the rundown on Perez. Looking just at his stats from 2009 to 2010 you wouldn't think he made a "lot of growth" as a hitter, but if that's what the organization saw, then that's good news.

With Chisenhall on track to be the full-time first baseman by 2012 at the latest, I agree that there's no future there for Goedert, even if his defense was up to par. You say he lacks the defensive ability to play left field everyday. (This guy sounds like a mirror image of Jordan Brown). My point is that left field is a much less demanding position defensively than 3rd base so if Goedert were to play there full time instead of trying to play three or four different positions as a super-utility player, maybe he could get to the point defensively where he could be an everyday player. It would take a series of events like Sizemore either suffering a reoccurence of his injury or getting traded and then Weglarz getting hurt again, but I could see where a right-handed power bat who is average defensively could help us in left field.

I'd rather see Goedert in left field than Duncan or Crowe. Neither of them got too many Gold Glove votes last year, I'll bet.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby jellis » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:53 pm

Defense is hugely important now, the shift in the past few years has made it so the Goederts and Browns of the world just dont have value anymore, because they can't play any position with at least a passing grade
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby daingean » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:06 pm

jellis wrote:Defense is hugely important now, the shift in the past few years has made it so the Goederts and Browns of the world just dont have value anymore, because they can't play any position with at least a passing grade


I would add that with Hafner taking up 1 roster spot, it makes it even more difficult for players like Goedert, Brown or Hodges to get a real shot. I say this because Hafner cannot be used in the field and you need defensive flexibility for the other 11 non-pitchers on the roster.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:17 pm

daingean wrote:
jellis wrote:Defense is hugely important now, the shift in the past few years has made it so the Goederts and Browns of the world just dont have value anymore, because they can't play any position with at least a passing grade


I would add that with Hafner taking up 1 roster spot, it makes it even more difficult for players like Goedert, Brown or Hodges to get a real shot. I say this because Hafner cannot be used in the field and you need defensive flexibility for the other 11 non-pitchers on the roster.


My question is whether defense is "hugely important" in left field. Just ask any team that ever signed Manny Ramirez. Or ask Acta why he had Crowe and Duncan running around out there last year.

Obviously Jared is no ManRam with the bat, but if he can concentrate on being a left fielder exclusively, I see no reason why he can't be at least competent. He spent all of his minor league career at 2nd or 3rd base, so this would be a step down in terms of difficulty.

The point about Hafner's presence making it necessary for the other backups to play multiple positions is a good one. Goedert could be a left fielder who can play 2nd or 3rd in a pinch. Or even 1st, from what Tony is saying. Chances are, however, that he ends up being another Jordan Brown - a solid AAA bat with no position who gradually fades away or becomes the next Ben Francisco.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby jellis » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:40 am

Prosecutor wrote:
daingean wrote:
jellis wrote:Defense is hugely important now, the shift in the past few years has made it so the Goederts and Browns of the world just dont have value anymore, because they can't play any position with at least a passing grade


I would add that with Hafner taking up 1 roster spot, it makes it even more difficult for players like Goedert, Brown or Hodges to get a real shot. I say this because Hafner cannot be used in the field and you need defensive flexibility for the other 11 non-pitchers on the roster.


My question is whether defense is "hugely important" in left field. Just ask any team that ever signed Manny Ramirez. Or ask Acta why he had Crowe and Duncan running around out there last year.

Obviously Jared is no ManRam with the bat, but if he can concentrate on being a left fielder exclusively, I see no reason why he can't be at least competent. He spent all of his minor league career at 2nd or 3rd base, so this would be a step down in terms of difficulty.

The point about Hafner's presence making it necessary for the other backups to play multiple positions is a good one. Goedert could be a left fielder who can play 2nd or 3rd in a pinch. Or even 1st, from what Tony is saying. Chances are, however, that he ends up being another Jordan Brown - a solid AAA bat with no position who gradually fades away or becomes the next Ben Francisco.

you make allowances when there are elite skills, but when the skills are not elite then all the sudden the big 3 of the new wave are what is important walks, speed, and defense something brown and Goedert lack in all regards
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:35 am

jellis wrote:you make allowances when there are elite skills...


Agreed.

Teams were fine with a guy like Manny in the outfield because he was an unbelievable hitter. And heck, at one time when he was with the Indians, he was a solid average RFer.

It is not so simple to just plug a guy into left field. I think Goedert can be serviceable out there in a pinch or once a week if needed, but I am unsure he has the athleticism to play out there every day. Maybe at best he is like Jordan Brown and grades out as below average in LF, which once or twice here and there is not so bad....but everyday it hurts you. He is also at an age where development at the position would be minimal.

His bat is interesting and he has some good power, but he is not an everyday player in the big leagues. He is a fringe MLer who is going to have to make his bones as a versatile RH bat off the bench, which is where his ability to mix it up between 3B and 1B and some LF will help. 3B is still his primary position, and 1B and LF would only be out of necessity.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Prosecutor » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:35 am

Thanks, guys. Good points all around.

Goedert might not be athletic enough to play left field, according to Tony. But we might use him at 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Wow. That will be interesting to see. If Manny ever puts Nix at 3rd, Donald at short, and Goedert at 2nd, Fausto may walk off the mound in disgust.

Hey jellis, what's this "big 3 new wave" of walk, speed and defense? I know home runs are down now that they've cracked down on steroids, but there's still a place for a bat, right?

Don't tell me our outfield of the future is Brantley, Bo Greenwell, and Jordan Henry. :shok:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby adaree » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:33 am

Tony, how is Greenwell as far as plate discipline and coverage? Is there a worry about his strikeouts? I know he is still very young and it was his first exposure to high-A ball, but don't the 51 strikeouts in 240 at bats alarm the tribe considering he's not a big power guy?
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby adaree » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:35 am

Prosecutor wrote:Thanks, guys. Good points all around.

Goedert might not be athletic enough to play left field, according to Tony. But we might use him at 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Wow. That will be interesting to see. If Manny ever puts Nix at 3rd, Donald at short, and Goedert at 2nd, Fausto may walk off the mound in disgust.

Hey jellis, what's this "big 3 new wave" of walk, speed and defense? I know home runs are down now that they've cracked down on steroids, but there's still a place for a bat, right?

Don't tell me our outfield of the future is Brantley, Bo Greenwell, and Jordan Henry. :shok:



I think Washington has a chance to be in our outfield for a long time and there are some very interesting outfield prospects in the 2011 draft...Bradley Jr. is a name to keep in mind.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:40 am

adaree wrote:Tony, how is Greenwell as far as plate discipline and coverage? Is there a worry about his strikeouts? I know he is still very young and it was his first exposure to high-A ball, but don't the 51 strikeouts in 240 at bats alarm the tribe considering he's not a big power guy?


I think he is one of the more disciplined hitters in the org. He has always shown a good BB/K rate at every level, every year except for his small sample in High-A last year. It is something to monitor, but I think it was more him needing to adjust to the league as that is a big one for hitters. Will be interesting to see how he does there in a return trip to start the season.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:09 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
jellis wrote:you make allowances when there are elite skills...


Agreed.

Teams were fine with a guy like Manny in the outfield because he was an unbelievable hitter. And heck, at one time when he was with the Indians, he was a solid average RFer.

It is not so simple to just plug a guy into left field. I think Goedert can be serviceable out there in a pinch or once a week if needed, but I am unsure he has the athleticism to play out there every day. Maybe at best he is like Jordan Brown and grades out as below average in LF, which once or twice here and there is not so bad....but everyday it hurts you. He is also at an age where development at the position would be minimal.

His bat is interesting and he has some good power, but he is not an everyday player in the big leagues. He is a fringe MLer who is going to have to make his bones as a versatile RH bat off the bench, which is where his ability to mix it up between 3B and 1B and some LF will help. 3B is still his primary position, and 1B and LF would only be out of necessity.

Not putting words into your mouth but you appear to feel there is no chance Goedert will DH, even if only against LHP. If his bat is real, and I, for one, am not convinced it is, then I believe he could fit nicely as a part time UT/DH. I would never have guessed I would rank him higher than you but I caught some video of him playing 1B and think he might be serviceable there. Mostly I would give him time at Columbus to work at 1B full time. He isn't blocking anyone and it is not like we have anything else behind LaPorta. Not sure I see the athleticism/footwork to be a good fit in the OF and 2B is out of the question for me. :pleasantry:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:19 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Not putting words into your mouth but you appear to feel there is no chance Goedert will DH, even if only against LHP.


Quite the contrary, I think DH is definitely an option and part of the 3B, 1B, LF use he profiles at.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:36 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Not putting words into your mouth but you appear to feel there is no chance Goedert will DH, even if only against LHP.


Quite the contrary, I think DH is definitely an option and part of the 3B, 1B, LF use he profiles at.


I still think he has a shot at being a Casey Blake type of guy. Maybe it takes him a while to get to a level to start at any one position, but (assuming he gets healthy) he does seem to have enough athleticism to at least be able to play all 4 the positions Tony mentioned. I think in a pinch he could fill in at 2B as well (though with so many other options, it's not needed). I wouldn't be opposed to him making the club and pairing with Valbuena as the utility guys.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:27 pm

While I agree there may be some Blake potential with Goedert as a late comer...he in no way is nearly as athletic as Blake is/was.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby jellis » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:33 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Thanks, guys. Good points all around.

Goedert might not be athletic enough to play left field, according to Tony. But we might use him at 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Wow. That will be interesting to see. If Manny ever puts Nix at 3rd, Donald at short, and Goedert at 2nd, Fausto may walk off the mound in disgust.

Hey jellis, what's this "big 3 new wave" of walk, speed and defense? I know home runs are down now that they've cracked down on steroids, but there's still a place for a bat, right?

Don't tell me our outfield of the future is Brantley, Bo Greenwell, and Jordan Henry. :shok:


Post steroids boom , look at baseball, and their are guys playing who would have never before because of their defense and speed. Power is great and elite power is better. But to baseball people OBP means more than AVG. Walks, speed, and defense are the skills that are now very important when 10 years they were viewed as secondary skills, now you better be able to provide one of those skills along with power or average if you want to make the majors. I know I am not alone in noticing this shift and its been pretty obvious over the last 5 years
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby jellis » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:34 pm

TonyIPI wrote:While I agree there may be some Blake potential with Goedert as a late comer...he in no way is nearly as athletic as Blake is/was.


doesnt have the footwork that blake had or the just plain athleticism that made Blake at least an average defender all over the diamond.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:58 pm

jellis wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:While I agree there may be some Blake potential with Goedert as a late comer...he in no way is nearly as athletic as Blake is/was.


doesnt have the footwork that blake had or the just plain athleticism that made Blake at least an average defender all over the diamond.

I think you probably summed up his problem defensively very well. At least at 1B he does not have to throw off balance from his footwork. I am not too sure he won't hurt himself in the OF. Somewhere on this site, the question was asked if he is that much worse than Nix. FWIW, I think he is much worse but Nix is not a ML 3B IMO either. :pleasantry:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:56 pm

TonyIPI wrote:While I agree there may be some Blake potential with Goedert as a late comer...he in no way is nearly as athletic as Blake is/was.


Yeah? :dunno:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:00 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I think you probably summed up his problem defensively very well. At least at 1B he does not have to throw off balance from his footwork. I am not too sure he won't hurt himself in the OF. Somewhere on this site, the question was asked if he is that much worse than Nix. FWIW, I think he is much worse but Nix is not a ML 3B IMO either. :pleasantry:


Yeah but at the end of the day, if Goedert hurts himself in the OF....does it really matter? :s_tongue


And sadly, you can say that (the injury thing) about our top 2 OF prospects as well.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby daingean » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:22 am

From what I have seen is if someone says something about a prospect (i.e. Chisenhall's defense at 3B or White projects as a reliever) it can stick and plague that prospect in these media types (i.e. Law). Chiz's defense issues mostly stemmed from 1. his early conversion from SS to 3B and his shoulder injury. There were questions about White being projected as a reliever right after the draft/signing. It seems to me these questions have been answered but some people still bring them up.

1. I think Chiz is a future all-star
2. I hope White and Pomeranz can be #2/#3 starters
3. My biggest concern is Knapp and his shoulder. I need to see 120 IP or so. He can develop into a FOR but shoulder issues have derailed many a prospect.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby danh8 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 pm

daingean wrote:From what I have seen is if someone says something about a prospect (i.e. Chisenhall's defense at 3B or White projects as a reliever) it can stick and plague that prospect in these media types (i.e. Law). Chiz's defense issues mostly stemmed from 1. his early conversion from SS to 3B and his shoulder injury. There were questions about White being projected as a reliever right after the draft/signing. It seems to me these questions have been answered but some people still bring them up.

1. I think Chiz is a future all-star
2. I hope White and Pomeranz can be #2/#3 starters
3. My biggest concern is Knapp and his shoulder. I need to see 120 IP or so. He can develop into a FOR but shoulder issues have derailed many a prospect.


As far as White answering questions about whether he is ultimately a starter or reliever, it's obvious that the Indians are going to give him every opportunity to become a starter, where we stand now on into the next year or so... What will ultimately be his fate, lies in his ability to get that third pitch up to par so that he can be successful at the major league level as a starter.

As he stands now, he would have a lot of trouble ...he doesn't miss bats, and without the improvement of that slider, I can see major league bats just wasting pitches with tho strikes on them until they find what they are looking for.
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:03 pm

daingean wrote:From what I have seen is if someone says something about a prospect (i.e. Chisenhall's defense at 3B or White projects as a reliever) it can stick and plague that prospect in these media types (i.e. Law). Chiz's defense issues mostly stemmed from 1. his early conversion from SS to 3B and his shoulder injury. There were questions about White being projected as a reliever right after the draft/signing. It seems to me these questions have been answered but some people still bring them up.

1. I think Chiz is a future all-star
2. I hope White and Pomeranz can be #2/#3 starters
3. My biggest concern is Knapp and his shoulder. I need to see 120 IP or so. He can develop into a FOR but shoulder issues have derailed many a prospect.
+1

Yes, the stigma of a 'review" can become a yoke around a players neck that may or may not be warranted. An example includes, some time back.. in 2008, a report surfaced that Michael Brantley had difficulty/issues with getting a good jump on batted balls... since then, he's been classified as having "HORRIBLE" outfield defense. It's an invalid assessment.. and remains.. for no apparent reason...
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I think you probably summed up his problem defensively very well. At least at 1B he does not have to throw off balance from his footwork. I am not too sure he won't hurt himself in the OF. Somewhere on this site, the question was asked if he is that much worse than Nix. FWIW, I think he is much worse but Nix is not a ML 3B IMO either. :pleasantry:


Yeah but at the end of the day, if Goedert hurts himself in the OF....does it really matter? :s_tongue


And sadly, you can say that (the injury thing) about our top 2 OF prospects as well.

Ok, the old guy here is confused about your last comment. I think you are referring to the injury prone, or so it appears, Weglarz and Washington. Cannot deny the possibility on Washington but seems a bit premature to me. It only matters about Goedert to me because I think the safest position for him to play is 1B and there is no other reasonable backup to LaPorta. As I mentioned earlier, I am not sold on his bat but if he can hit, he might some have short term value. :pleasantry:
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Re: Top 50 Countdown

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:43 pm

Shoulder injuries can always re-occur the next time it could be Knapp's elbow (GOD FORBID!). He is a power pitcher, but that doesn't necessarily mean he will re-injure himself. From what the Indians have said of his injury (a scope to removal lose bodies-- if I recall correctly) and take this from someone who has had that injury... don't be overly concerned with that particular injury... The Tribe played it cautious with him allowing him extra time to heal because of his prospect status. Loose bodies though are small bone chips which could occur because of use or simply he has or had a "tight joint" other pitchers and position players have had their shoulder loosened, by simply cleaning and smoothing out the joint it provides a better (smoother) throwing motion and better range of motion. Some people are born with "tighter" joints others with loose joints. Lets hope for him it was a one time clean out. That said it could lead to future minor scopes to keep his shoulder clean and free of bone chips or spurs which can cause tears or fraying. Altogether it sounds like it was a pretty routine procedure and nothing like Labrum or TJ surgery. I don't think it affects his status or projection at all right now unless it becomes re-occuring. At worst he becomes a dominant back of the bullpen type to limit his innings. I would expect to see the Tribe try to build his innings up moderately this season and keep him on a pitch count because of his age and previous injury.
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