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Offseason Expectations

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:43 pm

Soto would have to really start hitting the weights to add 20-40 lbs. Maybe 20 as he matures but pitchers shouldn't bulk up. It causes them to become too tight and raises the possibility for injury... It's a fine line strength is good to help add velocity but typically either a pitcher has it or doesn't.
At best Soto becomes a 5th starter or lefty outof the pen IMO.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:18 pm

When you start at 6'3" and a155 pounds dripping wet.. you can add a bunch... If you've ever seen him.. he can't go out on a windy day.. get blown away... :lol:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:22 am

Some guys are naturally thin if Soto were 18 I would say he could pack on 20-40 lbs but at age 20 he isn't as likely, maybe 20 lbs. Although he will gain strength and weight with age naturally. How many mph will his fastball tick up? Probably 1-3, 4 tops which puts him at about 92mph which is slightly above avg. Still don't see him as a MOR type guy maybe a 5th starter at best, hope Im wrong on him though.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby artgold » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:51 am

Though being really skinny is a negative factor in overall pitcher evaluation, I wouldn't be so quick to slot him in as just a marginal starter.

The Dodgers had a guy who was really thin back in the late 1980's, Ramon Martinez, who became a decent major league starting pitcher. While not claiming Soto to be another Martinez, I'd be open minded to seeing how he develops as a pitcher, and if he is an effective but skinny guy, so what?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:02 pm

artgold wrote:Though being really skinny is a negative factor in overall pitcher evaluation, I wouldn't be so quick to slot him in as just a marginal starter.

The Dodgers had a guy who was really thin back in the late 1980's, Ramon Martinez, who became a decent major league starting pitcher. While not claiming Soto to be another Martinez, I'd be open minded to seeing how he develops as a pitcher, and if he is an effective but skinny guy, so what?

Ramon had a little brother that turned out to be a pretty good pitcher too.. he was skinnier and about 5 inches shorter.. had super long fingers that made his change up mystifying... The Indians could have had Ramon's lil-bro too.. but.. alas.. it wasn't meant to be.. and the rest is history, so they say...
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:34 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Soto would have to really start hitting the weights to add 20-40 lbs. Maybe 20 as he matures but pitchers shouldn't bulk up. It causes them to become too tight and raises the possibility for injury... It's a fine line strength is good to help add velocity but typically either a pitcher has it or doesn't.
At best Soto becomes a 5th starter or lefty outof the pen IMO.


On a frame like that, you can add plenty of muscle without coming close to bulking up. He can add 25 to 30lbs on a weight program and still not lose any flexibility.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:27 pm

All good points, I consider it with a skewed perspective I guess... I put on close to 20 lbs of muscle and could hit 90 mechanically it messed me up. Typically if a player puts on 20 lbs of muscle it's through weights... If not properly stretched and coached to remain flexible the added muscle "tightens" up the mechanics. Soto does have size on his side at 6'3, I didn't scratching to reach 5'10. Soto is young and could naturally over the course of a cpl seasons could pack on the lbs naturally with maturity. Projecting him from where he is right now I say he's a 5 th starter candidate in a cpl yrs. If he polishes all of his stuff and consistently reaches 90+ mph he could be a 3-4 at best IMO.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:46 pm

Mlbtraderumors is reporting the tribe has acq. Joe Martinez from the pirates for a ptbn or cash. He's unimpressive statisically. I don't know much about him honestly but he sounds like a spring training arm with limited potential.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:22 pm

I just spoke with a Pirates fan who has seen the guy pitch.. he wasn't impressed.. So his ability might be best described as "meh".. Could be the compensation for allowing Josh Rodriguez to stay with the Pirates if they decide to chance sending him through waivers for a minor league assignment.. IDK...
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:37 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Mlbtraderumors is reporting the tribe has acq. Joe Martinez from the pirates for a ptbn or cash. He's unimpressive statisically. I don't know much about him honestly but he sounds like a spring training arm with limited potential.


Well, he needs to be added to the 40-man roster, so perhaps the Tribe sees more.

One things sure, there needs to be another roster move to clear space for him (when the Kearns signing actually becomes official).
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby artgold » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:04 pm

I too see this as a Josh Rodriguez deal. Martinez was in the Giants system a few years ago, and had a great season in the Eastern League. Though never a top prospect, he was a groundball pitcher with good control. He would be hurt more by throwing down the middle of the plate than being wild though.

I think he hasn't been the same since he was hit by a line drive a couple of seasons ago.

http://www.breitbart.tv/injured-giants- ... ine-drive/
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:20 pm

artgold wrote:I too see this as a Josh Rodriguez deal. Martinez was in the Giants system a few years ago, and had a great season in the Eastern League. Though never a top prospect, he was a groundball pitcher with good control. He would be hurt more by throwing down the middle of the plate than being wild though.

I think he hasn't been the same since he was hit by a line drive a couple of seasons ago.

http://www.breitbart.tv/injured-giants- ... ine-drive/

Looks right to me. Too much of a coincidence. It looks to me like he is out of options and I wouldn't think his chances of reaching the 25 are real good. :good:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:35 pm

Agreed I thought the same thing about a possible deal for JRod. Adding Martinez might mean dropping Duncan? Maybe trading a guy away in a separate deal.... Like Crowe to the pirates for a minor leaguer or cash.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GhostofTedCox » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:02 am

I don't understand the reasoning for acquiring Martinez. Yes, we could use more starting depth. But does Martinez bring anything more to the table than half a dozen pitchers already in the organization? He's not a veteran, and he does not have a plus pitch. Yet, he takes up a roster spot.
The success we had with our own young and inexperienced pitchers in 2010 should provide encouragement for us to do the same in 2011.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:42 am

GeronimoSon wrote:Giovanni Soto.. another fine performance.. he appears to be coming on.. we'll see if he can make the Indians decision to send him to the minors around the final cut down a much more difficult decision.


Just an FYI, but he won't be in major league camp this spring. So no final cutdown will be needed. :wink:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:37 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
artgold wrote:I too see this as a Josh Rodriguez deal. Martinez was in the Giants system a few years ago, and had a great season in the Eastern League. Though never a top prospect, he was a groundball pitcher with good control. He would be hurt more by throwing down the middle of the plate than being wild though.

I think he hasn't been the same since he was hit by a line drive a couple of seasons ago.

http://www.breitbart.tv/injured-giants- ... ine-drive/

Looks right to me. Too much of a coincidence. It looks to me like he is out of options and I wouldn't think his chances of reaching the 25 are real good. :good:


I thought he still had options left?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:06 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
artgold wrote:I too see this as a Josh Rodriguez deal. Martinez was in the Giants system a few years ago, and had a great season in the Eastern League. Though never a top prospect, he was a groundball pitcher with good control. He would be hurt more by throwing down the middle of the plate than being wild though.

I think he hasn't been the same since he was hit by a line drive a couple of seasons ago.

http://www.breitbart.tv/injured-giants- ... ine-drive/

Looks right to me. Too much of a coincidence. It looks to me like he is out of options and I wouldn't think his chances of reaching the 25 are real good. :good:


I thought he still had options left?


Yes, two options.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:29 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Yes, two options.


Thanks. I thought I read that right.

Seems to me that there's a very good possibility that the PTBNL could be Rodriguez. That would allow the Pirates to keep him without having to add him to the 25 man roster. I'm sure they can work it out so it's that way.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:45 pm

I know for a fact that Martinez is absolutely not any kind of compensation for JRod. Pirates likely to get cash from Indians for Martinez.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:10 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I know for a fact that Martinez is absolutely not any kind of compensation for JRod. Pirates likely to get cash from Indians for Martinez.


I'm sure you have inside information but I'm just thinking that if they owe the Pirates a PTBNL and then they want to hang on to Josh and need to work out a deal with the Tribe in order to keep him, this would make sense.

I don't think the Pirates are going to come up with much of a prospect for Josh.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:40 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:I know for a fact that Martinez is absolutely not any kind of compensation for JRod. Pirates likely to get cash from Indians for Martinez.


I'm sure you have inside information but I'm just thinking that if they owe the Pirates a PTBNL and then they want to hang on to Josh and need to work out a deal with the Tribe in order to keep him, this would make sense.

I don't think the Pirates are going to come up with much of a prospect for Josh.


Whilst I don't disagree with your logic, what would be the point, from the Pirates perspective, of trading anything for Josh Rodriguez RIGHT NOW.

What if Josh comes into ST, earns his place on the roster and holds his own as a utility player in 2011? You've given up something when you didn't need to.

If you're the Pirates, surely you don't look to trade anything for J-Rod until it becomes clear that you might want to send him to the minors at some point?!
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby artgold » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:47 pm

Daz, it would be that retaining JRod in the minors would be the PTBNL option for the Pirates. If he just clearly makes the club, the Pirates wouldn't select that option and would instead either take a marginal prospect or cash.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Edible14 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:58 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:If you're the Pirates, surely you don't look to trade anything for J-Rod until it becomes clear that you might want to send him to the minors at some point


Well, it gives them better roster flexibility. Which is good for them. But it really doesn't make sense for the Indians, who are having to rely on Adam Everett (or someone of his ilk) to play SS for Columbus and potentially be called on during the season right now. I'm sure the Indians wouldn't mind having JRod back (even though it's arguably a better situation for JRod in Pittsburgh).
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:51 am

TitoFrancona wrote:I'm sure you have inside information but I'm just thinking that if they owe the Pirates a PTBNL and then they want to hang on to Josh and need to work out a deal with the Tribe in order to keep him, this would make sense.

I don't think the Pirates are going to come up with much of a prospect for Josh.


I have been told flat out this in no way is connected to any compensation for JRod.

First off, they don't expect him to be offered back or the Pirates to even request a trade for his full rights. Secondly, if the Pirates want to work out a trade the Indians want more than Martinez as they value JRod and think JRod is more valuable than Martinez as compensation.

I get the feeling that unless JRod sticks with the Pirates, the Indians are not going to work out a deal as they want him back. So it looks like the Pirates will have to keep him on the 25-man all year no matter what if they want to keep him....unless they give the Indians a pretty good player in return.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:33 pm

Glad to hear the tribe wants jrod back. I expect him to make the pirates as a ut guy though.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:01 pm

Casey Kotchman is reportedly a target of CA if he will sign a minor league deal, the tribe is also reportedly interested in Kevin Millwood, I'm not sure Kotchman is much off an add. if signed but Millwood if he can resurrect his career once again could be a valuable trade asset and innings eater.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:18 pm

Casey Kotchman has reportedly signed with the Rays to a minor league deal. Millwood is reportedly being pursued by the Tribe, Royals and Yanks. If it comes down to money and the Yanks are willing to spend he will sign there but it may actually depend on Andy Pettitte's decision. If he returns to the Yanks Millwood will likely not be signed.

The Tribe has held a hard line in not spending money this offseason looking for progression throughout the system instead. I am mildly surprised by the lack of free agents signed to minor league deals with sring invites. I thought they would be more aggressive on that front but as CA has said they will probably bring in at least a cpl more players into camp.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby theshow » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:11 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:Casey Kotchman has reportedly signed with the Rays to a minor league deal. Millwood is reportedly being pursued by the Tribe, Royals and Yanks. If it comes down to money and the Yanks are willing to spend he will sign there but it may actually depend on Andy Pettitte's decision. If he returns to the Yanks Millwood will likely not be signed.


I would strongly suspect Millwood will not be brought in unless it is on a minor league contract with an invite to spring training. Mini-revivals can sometimes occur during player's careers, but they rarely occur twice. Millwood would just take innings away from someone who deserves a look like Tomlin, Huff, or Gomez.

Maybe I am crazy, but I am very comfortable with Tomlin. I think he is the kind of guy who keeps you in games. Will never be a #1 or even a #3 for that matter, but I will take my chances with him over guys like Colon, Chen, and Millwood.

I really wish we would give Justin Duschesur a look however. I guess he is not real durable, but I would rather have 150 great innings pitched than 200 mediocre innings pitched. I don't have any kind of feel for his market or price range, I just know he has always impressed me. Sounds like we are not involved though.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:21 pm

Great point I suspect the Tribe is willing to sign Millwood with the hopes he gives them some innings, not wins. Cant really see it being a deal for much other than incentive laden myself. I don't think he will sign here myself but wouldn't mind kicking the tires either way really. What brings to the table is veteran exp. something the Tribe is lacking. Tomlin might keep us in gms but I dont see much difference in the two myself as far as what they offer. Tomlin and Millwood will probably put up similar stats but Millwood is more of a known commodity. I would love to see Justin Durcsherer brouight in on a minor league deal but again dont think its likely. However the club did sign Branyan and trade him and Kearns last yr. I think it could be possible they do the same thing again signing a vet and then trading them to allow time for the young guys to get more seasoning. Ive always been annoyed that teams like the Marlins seem to play their young guys and are in contention and the Tribe struggles through these re-treads.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:47 pm

Homer: ... Ive always been annoyed that teams like the Marlins seem to play their young guys and are in contention and the Tribe struggles through these re-treads...
Hence the thread titled "Will the Indians bring their best 25 guys". First off, the "clarifyers" will assume you are unaware that the Marlins are hardly ever in contention. While on paper, this is true. The Marlins go about their business in a similar fashion to the Indians.. they trade, draft & develop young kids, extend those they can.. and compete in a narrow window of opportunity.. before selling off veteran stars.. A cycle that occurs every 7 years or so.. give or take.

Do young players benefit from exposure to MLB at an early age? The two schools of thought are: 1. Yes, the kids benefit from early exposure as it provides them with clear evidence of the "things" they need to work on.. and 2. No.. a kid brought up to MLB who fails can be scarred for life...

While there is truth in both "schools" of thought.. the second thought, imho, is PURE BS.. if a player can play, he raises his level of ability. If the kid is so called "scarred for life".. he probably wasn't a player to begin with.. If you look like you belong, if you play like you belong.. then you probably belong.. simple as that...
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:04 pm

It's seems the marlins have had better teams, and they are willing to play these young guys. I'm not a marlins fan so I'm observing from a distance. I agree though if a prospect is scared to death than they are probably not really a prospect. The tribe has become more aggressive in moving guys up but are conservative about starting their service time clock.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:33 pm

I heard earlier today the Tigers will not resign Jeremy Bonderman, 28. Reportedly he is close on a deal with the Tribe. He's a high era guy who can eat some innings and may have trade value if he pitches well. I couldn't imagine it would be a longer deal than 1 yr with incentives for wins, innings pitched. For Bonderman this is a chance to start over he was rushed to the majors with the Tigers and could be a value pick up for the Tribe. If he's signed and I think he will be, I wish him luck.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:26 am

No idea why we would sign Bonderman. Last year his ERA was 5.53. The two years before that he was hurt and only pitched 81 innings. The year before that his ERA was 5.01. His only good year was 2006.

Last year opposing batters hit .277 against him and he gave up 25 dingers in 171 innings while earning $12.5 million. He also couldn't be counted on past the 4th inning or so; batters hit .329 against him on pitches 46-60.

Most concerning of all is his home/away ERA; 4.40 in the large, friendly confines of Tiger Stadium and 6.84 on the road. This guy needs to pitch in a park where the fences are way, way back. Seattle would be a good fit with Frankie G and Ichiro there to run down all those long fly balls he gives up that will be homers in our park.

I would rather just give the ball to Tomlin or Jeanmar Gomez than have this guy keep one of them in AAA. We're talking about the 5th starter on a non-contending team here. Tomlin is 26 and he dominated in Columbus last year. What's the point of keeping him there another year? He can be a place holder in the #5 spot until White is ready and there's always Gomez as a backup. Bonderman reminds me of the Jason Johnson signing a few years ago. How did that work out?

The Tribe is probably hoping for another Carl Pavano situation. Veteran starter who was hurt several years in a row, finally gets healthy and we sign him on the cheap just as he returns to form. Maybe it's worth a shot for the right price. He's still only 29 and maybe he can get back to his 2006 level. It worked with Pavano. If not we can always cut or trade him in June like we did with Johnson.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:17 am

Indians are not too concerned with Bonderman's performance last year, or really anyone they are considering signing still. Their main priority, right or wrong, is to bring in someone for the starting rotation to eat innings. Yes, they have lots of young starting pitching options....but with all that inexperience comes a lot of unknown and the potential for overwork of a bullpen. Ideally, i would prefer we just go with Tomlin/Huff or whoever at #5, but I know they also want some of these guys to open at AAA to work on some things they simply can't at the ML level....so this is why they have been in talks with several veterans this offseason as they look for a short term fit to bridge the gap and eat innings this year to help with injuries, poor performance, and the volatility of youth and inexperience.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:46 am

Signing Bonderman is dumb, I agree.

We are talking about a 5th starter. Tomlin deserves a shot. If he is not ready now, he never will be. If Tomlin lays an egg or gets hurt we have Huff or Gomez good to go. We also have a bunch of arms at AAA that are close to ready like Kluber, McAllister and, by June or July, White.

This is a very different situation than 2010.

Sending Tomlin down to AAA just to create room for Bonderman is also dumb. We have five good starters stacked up all the way down to Lake City. We have guys NOT in the rotation now on Tony's chart, like Adams and McFarland at AA, who deserve starts. Let's not mess with the development of our young pitchers to serve up this refried hack.

The whole thing is crazy, unless there is a compelling case that Bonderman would be a marked improvement over Tomlin and Talbott. That strikes me as wishful thinking and short-sighted. Unless the argument is that this move suddenly vaults the Tribe to within eyesight of contention, and that would not be the case otherwise, it is a non-starter.

Trust the farm system with regard to pitching. Pitching is not going to be the downfall of the Tribe in 2011; it will be hitting and/or infielding.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby theshow » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:11 am

elrod enchilada wrote:Trust the farm system with regard to pitching. Pitching is not going to be the downfall of the Tribe in 2011; it will be hitting and/or infielding.


I don't like the Bonderman signing. But saying that pitching won't be the downfall of the Indians in 2011 is way too strong of a statement. A common statement made prior to 2010 was, "the Indians will hit, that is inevitable, but can they get any help from the starting pitching." Well it turned out to be just the opposite. The starters overperformed and the hitters underperformed.

Every pitcher on our staff could end up blowing up and back in the minors (with the exception of maybe Masterson who is he is getting rocked will head to the bullpen). If Sizemore and Santana are both healthy, I think believing our offense will be more advanced then our starting pitching would be a safer assumption. Both however are complete crapshoots with all the youth we have.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:04 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Indians are not too concerned with Bonderman's performance last year, or really anyone they are considering signing still. Their main priority, right or wrong, is to bring in someone for the starting rotation to eat innings.

So they don't care if he gives up six runs as long as he goes six innings?

Yes, they have lots of young starting pitching options....but with all that inexperience comes a lot of unknown and the potential for overwork of a bullpen. Ideally, i would prefer we just go with Tomlin/Huff or whoever at #5, but I know they also want some of these guys to open at AAA to work on some things they simply can't at the ML level....so this is why they have been in talks with several veterans this offseason as they look for a short term fit to bridge the gap and eat innings this year to help with injuries, poor performance, and the volatility of youth and inexperience.

Tomlin was anything but "volatile". In fact, if they want an innings eater, he's the guy. He started 12 games for the Tribe and averaged 6 1/3 innings per start. He never pitched fewer than 5 innings in 12 starts. That's consistency, not volatility. He also had a 4.56 ERA, much better than anything Bonderman has put up in the last four years. In fact, I think he tied or broke Steve Dunning's team record for most consecutive starts of 5 innings or more to begin his career.

Gomez started 11 games and averaged 5 1/3 innings. He pitched at least 5 innings in 9 of his 11 starts. He had two bad outings where he gave up 14 earned runs, but his ERA in his other 9 starts was 2.94. I want to see more of this kid.

If they don't pan out as the #5 starter, there's always Huff or Laffey.

I know you're just explaining the organization's thinking, but I don't agree with it.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Edible14 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:22 pm

I'm curious what the Indians org thinks various guys have to work on. I understand it in the case of Kluber/McAllister/White... maybe Gomez as well. But what do Tomlin, Huff or Martinez stand to gain by extra time in Columbus?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby JayAre » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:27 pm

Bonderman's xFIP and K/BB were pretty respectable before his injury. Another reclamation project, but I'm not too high on guys like Tomlin and Gomez anyway, so I don't mind rolling the dice here.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:46 pm

When I say that pitching will not be the tribe's downfall in 2011, I mean that unless there is a wave on injuries we have sufficient arms to be decent. I do not think we will contend, but 2011 is all about developing the arms we have, not getting stopgap guys so we win 3 more games and lose a development year for several legitimate prospects.

The point is that the purpose of 2011 is not to win as many games as possible regardless of whether it weakens us in 2012 and thereafter. By that logic we trade Kip and Chiz and Pom for veteran retreads and win 86 games. The point of 2011 is to do what is necessary to make this team a legitimate contender in 2012 or 2013 and remain there for as long as possible.

We have arms that need and deserve innings. No thank you, Bonderman. You are not needed here and now.

PS-- If all our pitching prospects were at AA or lower, then fire away with Bonderman for a one-year deal. They aren't, so no need for Bonderman.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby daingean » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:03 pm

wrt Bonderman. I'm not that impressed but I do see the need.

We have a lot of young arms in the BP. We need someone on this team that will eat up 200-220 innings or so. Otherwise, the BP gets overused and history shows that BP pitchers that are over-pitched struggle to regain their previous form. Only Carmona pitched > 200 IP last year. Talbott only 159 in 28 starts and Masterson 180 in 29 starts +5 relief appearances.

If Masterson could get 200+ this year and Talbott 180+ then we could get by without another inning eater but that's a big if.

Here is what I see in the rotation

1. Carmona
2. Talbott
3. Masterson
4. Bonderman(if signed)/Huff/Laffey
5. Carrasco/Tomlin/Gomez
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:17 pm

Danny Ainge--

I did not know you were a Tribe fan. I love the Cs and you are doing a great job there.

I think Carrasco should be a lock for a spot in the rotation, and, health permitting, 30-32 starts. He showed me a great deal in September. No reason to dick this guy around; he has bigtime talent and he needs to pitch. He could be a good pitcher in 2011, not just down the road.

To me it is the 5th slot that is open. I am perfectly happy with the 5th slot being fought over by Tomlin, Gomez and Huff. My money is on Tomlin.

By May or June, if all three of them lay an egg, one or more of McAllister, Kluber and White should be ready for an audition.

Odds are by July OR August we will have located a pitcher for the 5th slot.

But we are talking about our 5th starter here. The first four slots, health permitting, are in good shape.

It is night and day from a year ago.

So, no thank you Bonderman.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:22 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Indians are not too concerned with Bonderman's performance last year, or really anyone they are considering signing still. Their main priority, right or wrong, is to bring in someone for the starting rotation to eat innings.

So they don't care if he gives up six runs as long as he goes six innings?....Tomlin was anything but "volatile".


To be flat honest, since it is a developmental year, yes, they are fine with a vet going out there and allowing 4-6 runs over 5-6 innings. There is a fine line when developing starting pitching....I don't necessarily agree with it....but throwing them out there to pitch a full season and expecting that to happen is not a great plan. Tomlin, Gomez, Huff, etc are all BOR guys with concerns of their effectiveness and who they think need some work. Tomlin pitched well last year, and I personally am comfortable with him....but I can't fault them for trying to go out and find more pitching options to help the development of their younger starters and give them more time in the minors. I mean, Sowers was pretty good in 2006 in his half season like Tomlin was last year, and then the wheels fell off.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:59 pm

daingean wrote:wrt Bonderman. I'm not that impressed but I do see the need.

We have a lot of young arms in the BP. We need someone on this team that will eat up 200-220 innings or so. Otherwise, the BP gets overused and history shows that BP pitchers that are over-pitched struggle to regain their previous form. Only Carmona pitched > 200 IP last year. Talbott only 159 in 28 starts and Masterson 180 in 29 starts +5 relief appearances.

If Masterson could get 200+ this year and Talbott 180+ then we could get by without another inning eater but that's a big if.

Here is what I see in the rotation

1. Carmona
2. Talbott
3. Masterson
4. Bonderman(if signed)/Huff/Laffey
5. Carrasco/Tomlin/Gomez


Wouldn't mind that 5. I get the vibe that Laffey isn't really a starting candidate barring some really bad things happening.

I agree with what Tony said in anther thread, Tomlin could be in the pen as a swing guy especially with so much youth in that rotation (heck, is Bonderman even 30 yet?).

Gomez....pitched well but definitely could use more time in AAA. Never really though he had that great a shot at making this club. Huff.....needs to prove a lot to Acta it seems. Would be nice to have a lefty in there though.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:57 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:Indians are not too concerned with Bonderman's performance last year, or really anyone they are considering signing still. Their main priority, right or wrong, is to bring in someone for the starting rotation to eat innings.

So they don't care if he gives up six runs as long as he goes six innings?....Tomlin was anything but "volatile".


To be flat honest, since it is a developmental year, yes, they are fine with a vet going out there and allowing 4-6 runs over 5-6 innings. There is a fine line when developing starting pitching....I don't necessarily agree with it....but throwing them out there to pitch a full season and expecting that to happen is not a great plan. Tomlin, Gomez, Huff, etc are all BOR guys with concerns of their effectiveness and who they think need some work. Tomlin pitched well last year, and I personally am comfortable with him....but I can't fault them for trying to go out and find more pitching options to help the development of their younger starters and give them more time in the minors. I mean, Sowers was pretty good in 2006 in his half season like Tomlin was last year, and then the wheels fell off.


That may be their thinking but clearly, their thinking is flawed. Bonderman won't go 5 or 6 innings consistently outside of Detroit. His ERA as bad as it was, was helped immensely by his at home stats. On the road, he was abysmally bad. I have no clue how Gomez or Tomlin pr even Huff will do, but I'm very confident none of the 3 will be as bad as Bonderman.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby JayAre » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:52 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:That may be their thinking but clearly, their thinking is flawed. Bonderman won't go 5 or 6 innings consistently outside of Detroit. His ERA as bad as it was, was helped immensely by his at home stats. On the road, he was abysmally bad.


Bonderman's actually a pretty decent groundball guy historically, but he's struggled keeping the ball in the yard; hence the home-road splits, I'd assume. Moving from Comerica to Progressive Field probably won't help his cause.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:18 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:I have no clue how Gomez or Tomlin pr even Huff will do, but I'm very confident none of the 3 will be as bad as Bonderman.


I agree as I like Huff, Tomlin, and Gomez at this point more than Bonderman (or Millwood). But agin, the point is not to necessarily put the best starter out there. If Bonderman struggles, he struggles. Case closed, no worries. But if Hufff, Gomez, and Tomlin struggle, the last thing you want to do is be forced to keep them in the big leagues as it deters from their development. Which is why they want to bring in a vet, to help cushion that.

Also, let it be known that just because they bring in a Bonderman or whoever does not mean that guy gets the spot. They will use spring training to evaluate everyone, and if Bonderman or whoever looks iffy and Tomlin looks good, they will go with Tomlin and cut the vet. It's the reason they were unable to come to terms with Colon, Duscherer, Lopez, Francis and others. All of them signed NRI deals, but they wanted too much in incentives and early opt outs and more guarantees, which they are not giving to anyone because the vet is only Plan B.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Prosecutor » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:40 pm

Well, if Bonderman is "Plan B", then I feel better about it. I was assuming that he would only sign if he were guaranteed a starting job coming out of spring training. If they tell him he'll be released if Gomez, Tomlin, or Huff have a great spring, I doubt he'll sign here unless it's his only offer.

I can understand how the Tribe might think Gomez needs more time in Columbus since he's only 22 and had a 5.20 ERA there last year. But when they gave him a shot in the Show (thanks to Laffey's unfortunate tweet) he was very impressive in 9 of his 11 starts. So I won't complain too much if he starts the season in Columbus.

Tomlin and Huff, on the other hand, are both 26 and they both have performed well at the AAA level. Especially Tomlin, who was 8-4 with a 2.68 ERA in Columbus before his call-up. Does the Tribe really think he's not ready to be a #5 starter after he won 6 times in 12 starts in Cleveland and averaged over 6 innings per start?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby InsaneJedi » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:54 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Also, let it be known that just because they bring in a Bonderman or whoever does not mean that guy gets the spot. They will use spring training to evaluate everyone, and if Bonderman or whoever looks iffy and Tomlin looks good, they will go with Tomlin and cut the vet. It's the reason they were unable to come to terms with Colon, Duscherer, Lopez, Francis and others. All of them signed NRI deals, but they wanted too much in incentives and early opt outs and more guarantees, which they are not giving to anyone because the vet is only Plan B.


While I hope this is the case, Nick Camino is reporting via Twitter that the Indians have offered him a major league deal, and are waiting on him to accept it. I think it's a bad decision, but then again I don't work in the front office. :dunno:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:11 pm

InsaneJedi wrote:While I hope this is the case, Nick Camino is reporting via Twitter that the Indians have offered him a major league deal, and are waiting on him to accept it. I think it's a bad decision, but then again I don't work in the front office. :dunno:


Based on the conversations I have had today with those in the know, that would be a major surprise if they offered him a major league deal. I will try and confirm, but I don't think Camino is right as it was probably a "minor league" deal and not a major league one.
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