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Offseason Expectations

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:17 pm

Also, they did not budge in talks with Colon, Francis, Duscherer, and Lopez to give them more guaranteed money or a big league deal....dunno why they would for Bonderman. Plus they don't want to remove anyone off the 40-man yet, even though they expect to make several 40-man moves before the end of spring training.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:45 am

A minor league deal with a big league camp invite seems to be the correct level of committement for Jeremy Bonderman. The shoulder issues he 'had' in 2008 and 2009, followed by his return to full time duty in 2010 should give him confidence that he can still perform at the big league level. In other words, his 2010 stats have no importance when compared to him being able to pitch effectively for a full season. Shoulder injuries have almost no set time frame for complete recovery, if ever. If Bonderman cannot throw his slider with the same level of intensity and confidence due to lingering concerns over the "injury" and subsequent surgery, then he's useless.. If he's able to forget about the injury and just pitch, then his value improves radically. If he's signed as an NRI.. good for CA, the Indians and all the Friends of the Feather...
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:00 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Also, they did not budge in talks with Colon, Francis, Duscherer, and Lopez to give them more guaranteed money or a big league deal....dunno why they would for Bonderman. Plus they don't want to remove anyone off the 40-man yet, even though they expect to make several 40-man moves before the end of spring training.


Of the aforementioned pitchers above, only Duscherer would have piqued my interest. I have no desire to see them add Bonderman to the roster but it's not because I would worry about who they would take off. They have several players on it now who would be very easily replaced.

I wouldn't have any problem with them signing Bonderman to a minor league deal, but I know their penchant for adding veteran players to the team hoping they regain whatever they once had without seeing any evidence in ST. They've done that before and that trick never works.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:22 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:A minor league deal with a big league camp invite seems to be the correct level of committement for Jeremy Bonderman. The shoulder issues he 'had' in 2008 and 2009, followed by his return to full time duty in 2010 should give him confidence that he can still perform at the big league level. In other words, his 2010 stats have no importance when compared to him being able to pitch effectively for a full season. Shoulder injuries have almost no set time frame for complete recovery, if ever. If Bonderman cannot throw his slider with the same level of intensity and confidence due to lingering concerns over the "injury" and subsequent surgery, then he's useless.. If he's able to forget about the injury and just pitch, then his value improves radically. If he's signed as an NRI.. good for CA, the Indians and all the Friends of the Feather...


Again, compared to Pavano, Bonderman is a model of good health. Bonderman pitched 170 innings last year (with a respectable FIP). He's worth as much if not more than Pavano was prior to 2009.

I hope you're right on the minor league deal, but just can't see it unless there is something bad wrong with his shoulder still that hasn't been disclosed.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 1:25 pm

JayAre wrote:Bonderman's actually a pretty decent groundball guy historically, but he's struggled keeping the ball in the yard; hence the home-road splits, I'd assume. Moving from Comerica to Progressive Field probably won't help his cause.


In bonderman's career, his home-road splits are virtually identical as far as ERA and BAA. Moving to Progressive really wouldn't hurt him much.

And his groundball rate has never been over 50% really so not a "pretty decent" groundball guy historically either.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby JayAre » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:09 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
JayAre wrote:Bonderman's actually a pretty decent groundball guy historically, but he's struggled keeping the ball in the yard; hence the home-road splits, I'd assume. Moving from Comerica to Progressive Field probably won't help his cause.


In bonderman's career, his home-road splits are virtually identical as far as ERA and BAA. Moving to Progressive really wouldn't hurt him much.

And his groundball rate has never been over 50% really so not a "pretty decent" groundball guy historically either.


Well I wouldn't necessarily consider a 48% GB guy to be a flyball pitcher. As for the splits, I was more or less looking at his HR/FB, since his xFIP didn't show much of a difference. In that regard, he did benefit a bit when pitching in Comerica (usually hovering around 11-12% in Detroit vs around 14% on the road), whereas Progressive Field is more homer friendly.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:27 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Again, compared to Pavano, Bonderman is a model of good health. Bonderman pitched 170 innings last year (with a respectable FIP). He's worth as much if not more than Pavano was prior to 2009.

I hope you're right on the minor league deal, but just can't see it unless there is something bad wrong with his shoulder still that hasn't been disclosed.


Not sure Pavano is a good comp. Different year, different trend. Look at all the guys who pitched 170-200 innings last year with 4.50 to 5.10 ERAs like Lopez, Garcia, Millwood, etc who signed minor league deals. Why would they get minor league deals and not BOnderman?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:12 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:Again, compared to Pavano, Bonderman is a model of good health. Bonderman pitched 170 innings last year (with a respectable FIP). He's worth as much if not more than Pavano was prior to 2009.

I hope you're right on the minor league deal, but just can't see it unless there is something bad wrong with his shoulder still that hasn't been disclosed.


Not sure Pavano is a good comp. Different year, different trend. Look at all the guys who pitched 170-200 innings last year with 4.50 to 5.10 ERAs like Lopez, Garcia, Millwood, etc who signed minor league deals. Why would they get minor league deals and not BOnderman?
A couple of less than earth shattering points.. Pavano's health versus Bonderman's health.. during each player's 2 year "down time", Pavano and Bonderman pitched 46 and 81 innings, respectively.. So, neither should be considered "paragons of health".. Pavano has two years of 200 + innings since then.. Bonderman has one season of 170 innings pitched. Neither pitcher performed all that well during their first full year back. Pavano eaned a one year MLB deal from the Indians followed by a multi year deal with the Twins, after being traded there. Bonderman may be in line for a MLB contract, but, it would benefit the Indians if they could sign him to minor league deal with a spring invite. It is highly unlikely Bonderman will be signed to a MLB contract by the Indians...
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:31 pm

mlbtraderumors is reporting the Tribe is closing in on RHP Kevin Millwood. I like Kevin Millwood, 36 better than Jeremy Bonderman, 28. Millwood did post a 5+ era with the O's last yr so did Bonderman. Bonderman was also coming off of 2yrs of injury struggles while Millwood post a 3.86 era with the Rangers in '09. Millwood would likely come in and start 30 gms and log about 180 innings too. Neither is the greatest option as an addition to the rotation but personal preference is for signing Millwood, although I thought he would have been signed by the Yanks.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:36 pm

I'm curious to see if the Tribe would consider signing both Kevin Millwood and Jeremy Bonderman. Id expect Bonderman to get a minor league contract w/ spring invite at least. I would try to sign both to minor league deals and than after spring trade or release the loser in the battle for the rotation spot. If some how both made the club I'd look at trading one or both by summer if they are pitching decent enough to draw interest and call up the youngsters... Gomez, Tomlin (I'd consider him as a long man), Huff and Alex White.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:55 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:I'm curious to see if the Tribe would consider signing both Kevin Millwood and Jeremy Bonderman. Id expect Bonderman to get a minor league contract w/ spring invite at least. I would try to sign both to minor league deals and than after spring trade or release the loser in the battle for the rotation spot. If some how both made the club I'd look at trading one or both by summer if they are pitching decent enough to draw interest and call up the youngsters... Gomez, Tomlin (I'd consider him as a long man), Huff and Alex White.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:33 pm

I'd have no problem with Jeremy Bonderman as a NRI invitation. In reply to those who ask "why would he take a minor league deal when there another dozen teams that would offer the same?"... Look at his competition. It's a collection of kids who either aren't quite ready or don't have any higher of a ceiling than he does. I'm sure he's not interested in pitching in AAA for a competitive team. An NRI with Cleveland would be an almost certain MLB deal when the season opens, and then he has a month or two to reestablish his value to a competitive team. I wouldn't be interested in guarantying Bonderman that MLB deal upfront, though. At least guard yourself against injury or complete disappointment in spring training... not to mention that MLB deals tend to come with more built-in incentives.

I don't understand the interest in Kevin Millwood. He's 36 and has been a bp machine for opposing lineups in 3 of the past 4 years. At least Bonderman has a reasonable chance of improving now that he's a year removed from his shoulder issues and still in his late 20s. It's time for Millwood to be put out to pasture.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:22 pm

Bonderman certainly has potentially more upside. Millwood however, does offer the ability to eat innings and at the Tribes price neither really matters as far as upside goes potential innings are the Tribes concern, keeping the pens innings down while allowing the young arms to develop in the minors not acq. MLB service time.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:03 pm

Except that the guy who has better potential to record outs has the better potential to eat innings. That also means the better chance of hanging around for as long as necessary (and maybe being traded for at least something), rather than being released at any point if he fails to eat innings. I'd be very surprised if the 36-year-old Millwood pitches more innings than the 28-year-old Bonderman this season. The only time Bonderman hasn't eaten innings was was when he had shoulder problems in '08-'09 which were the result of a since fixed medical condition, rather than injury/wear/tear.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:21 pm

A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:32 am

I take it Bonderman is waiting for some team to offer him a major league contract and that's who he'll sign with. If nobody offers him one, he'll probably take the minor league deal with the Tribe because that gives him the best shot at earning a starting job coming out of spring training.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:43 am

Prosecutor wrote:I take it Bonderman is waiting for some team to offer him a major league contract and that's who he'll sign with. If nobody offers him one, he'll probably take the minor league deal with the Tribe because that gives him the best shot at earning a starting job coming out of spring training.
When it comes to the Indians and signing free agents at any level, nothing is certain.. The upside would be having a veteran SP in the wigwam.. the downside is having THIS veteran SP in the wigwam.. can't yet determine if it's a good thing or not. IMHO, if the concern that engenders the need for a vet SP is to save the bullpen from being worn out.. SO WHAT!. Bring up one or more of the "healthy" strong armed kids from the farm system to se what they can contribute.. like Judy and Pestano and, even, <gasp> Adam Miller !..
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:04 pm

TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:27 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


I would say this would be true only if they sign both guys. Only signing 1 just tells me that the Indians want another vet to eat up innings till the mid-summer trading spree where they will get another Pino or Soto type. Otherwise the Tribe just misses on all of the July fun. :crazy:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:22 pm

daingean wrote: I would say this would be true only if they sign both guys. Only signing 1 just tells me that the Indians want another vet to eat up innings till the mid-summer trading spree where they will get another Pino or Soto type. Otherwise the Tribe just misses on all of the July fun. :crazy:


Are you suggesting that Pino & Soto are in the same category or are they in 2 different categories?? I would debate you if you thought that are same/ similar categories. Pino was brought in to be immediate big league depth at AAA. Soto is a long term prospect that was doing rather well in low A when he was traded for. Soto is no where close to being depth for the big leagues at this point.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby daingean » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:25 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
daingean wrote: I would say this would be true only if they sign both guys. Only signing 1 just tells me that the Indians want another vet to eat up innings till the mid-summer trading spree where they will get another Pino or Soto type. Otherwise the Tribe just misses on all of the July fun. :crazy:


Are you suggesting that Pino & Soto are in the same category or are they in 2 different categories?? I would debate you if you thought that are same/ similar categories. Pino was brought in to be immediate big league depth at AAA. Soto is a long term prospect that was doing rather well in low A when he was traded for. Soto is no where close to being depth for the big leagues at this point.


I'm putting them in the same category which is prospects acquired at the deadline for players that were just being jettisoned. Pino and Soto are just 2 types of guys in that category. These are different from the Sabathia, Lee, Blake and VMart returns as those guys were premium where Pavano and Peralta were guys we traded just to get rid of them.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:33 pm

Soto was not a top tier prospect when acquired but he was also more than a warm body. I have always looked at Pino as a warm body/ just a guy. If the big league club is using him, they are already in trouble.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby hoof32 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:14 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


Can't see them trading Carmona, he does have some potential, he can eat innings, he's signed for years, and relatively cheap.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:37 am

TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


Why?

Folks, the Indians are not trading Carmona nor are even considering it right now. Sure, they get calls on guys....but doesn't mean they are trading them. They get calls on Carlos Santana all the time....so they trading him too?
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:12 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


Why?

Folks, the Indians are not trading Carmona nor are even considering it right now. Sure, they get calls on guys....but doesn't mean they are trading them. They get calls on Carlos Santana all the time....so they trading him too?
Tony.. what are they going to get for Santana?.. two bags of used fungoes and some cases David Sunflower seeds? :s_crazy
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:17 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


Why?

Folks, the Indians are not trading Carmona nor are even considering it right now. Sure, they get calls on guys....but doesn't mean they are trading them. They get calls on Carlos Santana all the time....so they trading him too?



Everyone has a price......Though in cases like these - unreasonable ones. If the yanks want to give us Montero, Banuelos and MORE - well then I think the tribe would trade Carmona. Is that gonna happen - speculation/dreaming is a big part of the off-season
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:07 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:A team source told me they won't sign both Bonderman and Millwood.


Something tells me that if they have any real aspirations of signing Millwood and/or Bonderman, that they're seriously considering trading Carmona.


Why?

Folks, the Indians are not trading Carmona nor are even considering it right now. Sure, they get calls on guys....but doesn't mean they are trading them. They get calls on Carlos Santana all the time....so they trading him too?

Agree with this. Don't expect to see Fausto traded. He's more the type of guy we should be trying to trade for. Four years of control, all with team options, what else could you want?

Looked up the contract numbers on Cotts. They also have Forbes value for the franchise set at $391 million. Dolan bought it for $323 million. So he's actually NOT upside down on it. News to me.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby homerawayfromhome » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:15 pm

Im not sure what to make of the reported Orlando Cabrera signing. I'm also curious if the money spent on him would have went to a pitcher. Or if this was just improving the defense in the middle at the right price.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:24 pm

Of course it seems ridiculous to even consider trading Carmona with such a team friendly deal but lets not act like its impossible. Seem to remember them trading Cliff Lee a year early when he was a much better bargain than Carmona would be.

So they wouldnt pay Cliff Lee $6M (really prorated for less until deal following year) but its outrageous to think they dont want to pay Carmona- $6M-7-9-12?
I will be shocked if he is on the Indians when his contract gets to $9M. If they tank the first half of the season dont be surprised if Carmona is gone by the deadline this year.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Edible14 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:38 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Of course it seems ridiculous to even consider trading Carmona with such a team friendly deal but lets not act like its impossible. Seem to remember them trading Cliff Lee a year early when he was a much better bargain than Carmona would be.

So they wouldnt pay Cliff Lee $6M (really prorated for less until deal following year) but its outrageous to think they dont want to pay Carmona- $6M-7-9-12?
I will be shocked if he is on the Indians when his contract gets to $9M. If they tank the first half of the season dont be surprised if Carmona is gone by the deadline this year.


Different circumstances. The Indians had a payroll of about $80M when they traded Lee, and needed to shed some. The Indians aren't anywhere near that right now, and don't need to do anything like that. Also, part of the reason Lee was traded was because the Indians knew that the next year wasn't going to be competitive, and needed to re-stock their farm system. While additional prospects wouldn't hurt, they aren't in any similar bind now and they're looking towards being competitive next year or sooner.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:47 am

The circumstances may be different now, but, it wouldn't have been a huge surprise to see the Indians make the exact same decision. Another "circumstance" that has arisen is the Francisco Liriano "availability"... It's would be downright stooooopid for the Twins to trade their FOR starter, but, they have to weigh two competing situations (similar to what the Indians did):

1. Hold and compete WITH Liriano as their FOR SP for 2011, then possibly trade him in the offseason w/ 1 year under team control (& at a very high price.. ~ $ 11 MM) with the caveat that the acquiring team will want to have a window of opportunity to extend him.. This situation usually turns into a three ring circus.. & destabilizes the continuity of the team. It also reduces the return. If the twins decide to keep him through to the end of the contract.. and then lose him, he'll be worth two draft picks as opposed to two to four prospects, at least one, a blue chipper..

2. Trade Liriano Now: Liriano's value right now may be at its peak, but trading him would severly damage the Twins chances for their third consecutive AL Central title.. One thing the Twins absolutely do NOT want is to be in a position where they MUCH trade Liriano (like with Johan Santana) as their return was 'marginal' at best..

What should they do?... IDK.. but if the Yankees have the specs they twins want, and they do, trading him makes sense..
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby JayAre » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:55 am

Other big factor at play w/ Liriano is injury history.

If he goes on the shelf this year (again) his value, which is probably at an all-time high, will take a big hit. Sabathia and Lee were easier calls for the Tribe, but if Minnesota feels they can't extend Liriano beyond 2012, trading him now is probably the safest route to take.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby daingean » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:12 pm

JayAre wrote:Other big factor at play w/ Liriano is injury history.

If he goes on the shelf this year (again) his value, which is probably at an all-time high, will take a big hit. Sabathia and Lee were easier calls for the Tribe, but if Minnesota feels they can't extend Liriano beyond 2012, trading him now is probably the safest route to take.


If I were the Twins I wouldn't trade him now. Their window to contend is now. They just moved into a new stadium and are reaping the financial gains there. As we know, contending windows and new stadium booms have windows which eventually will close. Win while you can.

FWIW, I could care less what the Twins do now.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby JayAre » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:57 pm

Yeah, I wouldn't trade him either (and I don't think they will this year), but I can certainly see why they'd be doing their homework at this point.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby davidkey » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:43 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Of course it seems ridiculous to even consider trading Carmona with such a team friendly deal but lets not act like its impossible. Seem to remember them trading Cliff Lee a year early when he was a much better bargain than Carmona would be.

So they wouldnt pay Cliff Lee $6M (really prorated for less until deal following year) but its outrageous to think they dont want to pay Carmona- $6M-7-9-12?
I will be shocked if he is on the Indians when his contract gets to $9M. If they tank the first half of the season dont be surprised if Carmona is gone by the deadline this year.


Lloyd, are you new to the boards? If so, welcome. The chances they trade Carmona this year are probably closer to 1 in a million. So I'm saying there's a chance. But not a very good chance :) Best wishes - Mr. Samsonite (davidkey)
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:57 pm

If I'm the Twins, there's no way I trade Liriano. They have a very good chance of winning the Central this year and Liriano is a big piece in their success. Trade him away and they're not a contender in the division. Plain and simple.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby jellis » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:54 pm

A.Zajac wrote:If I'm the Twins, there's no way I trade Liriano. They have a very good chance of winning the Central this year and Liriano is a big piece in their success. Trade him away and they're not a contender in the division. Plain and simple.



said the same thing with johan, lirano is inconsistent. I would trade him for a good package, mid season. Gibson should be ready by then
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:28 am

Well.. it looks like the Cardinals & Albert Pujols are only $ 80 MM apart in their contract on the eve of the cut off date for further negotiation..and it's unlikely a deal gets done.. bad news for the most loyal and intelligent fans in baseball, the cardinals...

Their owner, Bill DeWitt Jr must be cheap!!

Their GM, John Mozeliak must be stooopid !!

SELL THE TEAM MR DEWITT if you can't afford to keep your players....

Where is the outcry?..maybe the Cards fans need some help in how to whine and blame about their CHEAP OWNER and STOOPID GM!!!

:cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:44 am

Wow you are really reaching there. Cardinals management consistently produces winners while Indians management produced 1 playoff team in their 10 years together. Get it done on the field and people wont keep questioning the moves your organization makes.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby danh8 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:08 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Wow you are really reaching there. Cardinals management consistently produces winners while Indians management produced 1 playoff team in their 10 years together. Get it done on the field and people wont keep questioning the moves your organization makes.


I've always been of the opinion that Indians fans thoughts on the Dolan family is misplaced. It's not so much the money spent that is their issue, it's loyalty to the worng people, and the lacking in having people held accountable for jobs they have done that were poor.

Most notably Mirabelli, and to a lesser extent Shapiro. But, Mirabelli was let to run this team's farm system into the ground, and only the great trades that Shapiro made salveged something ... but the record of our system under Mirabelli's reign was bottom five in the league.

I'm not saying that through this process they haven't lived and learned, I feel the changes and results of late have proven they have learned and have made many positive changes in personnel and process. All people in positions pf power make mistakes, and they did.

Our future will be brighter from the standpoint that we will be producing vastly better returns rom within our system. But, the damage done on the business side by having lost so many fan support will also have a negative impact that I don't see being very quickly or easily changed for the better.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:26 pm

danh8 wrote:Most notably Mirabelli, and to a lesser extent Shapiro. But, Mirabelli was let to run this team's farm system into the ground, and only the great trades that Shapiro made salveged something ... but the record of our system under Mirabelli's reign was bottom five in the league.


One big thing commonly glossed over though is the success they had in trades BECAUSE of Mirabelli. There is no sugar coating it as the drafts he and his scouts had from 2000-2005 were brutal. But if you ask me what saved him in the organization is the pretty good job he and his scouts have done in finding ML talent in trades. That is also the area he is directly responsible for....Shapiro pulled the trades based on the information, intel and recommendations from Mirabelli and his staff. Through those trades we got the likes of Santana, Cliff Lee, Brandon Phillips, Grady Sizemore, Shin-Soo Choo, Asdrubal Cabrera, Jake Westbrook, and so on.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby davidkey » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:48 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:Wow you are really reaching there. Cardinals management consistently produces winners while Indians management produced 1 playoff team in their 10 years together. Get it done on the field and people wont keep questioning the moves your organization makes.


Lloyd, I think A Zajac was being sarcastic/facetiously stupid in his comments about the Cardinals ownership.....eg, he was channeling his inner IronMike.

"Big gulp, huh? Cool!! Well, I'll see you later"
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:03 pm

Lloyd, I think A Zajac was being sarcastic/facetiously stupid in his comments about the Cardinals ownership.....eg, he was channeling his inner IronMike.

"Big gulp, huh? Cool!! Well, I'll see you later"


Hah, nice. Yeah, unless you wanna work 40 hours a week!!

I know he was being sarcastic but I think its misplaced to make fun of Indians fans for not being happy with the managements decisions over the last decade. There is really no comparison between the Indians and Cardinals right now.
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:07 pm

davidkey wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:Wow you are really reaching there. Cardinals management consistently produces winners while Indians management produced 1 playoff team in their 10 years together. Get it done on the field and people wont keep questioning the moves your organization makes.


Lloyd, I think A Zajac was being sarcastic/facetiously stupid in his comments about the Cardinals ownership.....eg, he was channeling his inner IronMike.

"Big gulp, huh? Cool!! Well, I'll see you later"

Actually, it was Geronimo but I think david's remark applies even though Geronimo is iron's biggest fan from his posts. :pleasantry:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby davidkey » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:08 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
Lloyd, I think A Zajac was being sarcastic/facetiously stupid in his comments about the Cardinals ownership.....eg, he was channeling his inner IronMike.

"Big gulp, huh? Cool!! Well, I'll see you later"


Hah, nice. Yeah, unless you wanna work 40 hours a week!!

I know he was being sarcastic but I think its misplaced to make fun of Indians fans for not being happy with the managements decisions over the last decade. There is really no comparison between the Indians and Cardinals right now.


Yeah, I definitely agree with that. LaRussa's a genius and Jocketty has done a heck of a job. The reviews are much more mixed/negative regarding Cleveland's managers and GM's :search:
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Re: Offseason Expectations

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:22 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
Lloyd, I think A Zajac was being sarcastic/facetiously stupid in his comments about the Cardinals ownership.....eg, he was channeling his inner IronMike.

"Big gulp, huh? Cool!! Well, I'll see you later"


Hah, nice. Yeah, unless you wanna work 40 hours a week!!

I know he was being sarcastic but I think its misplaced to make fun of Indians fans for not being happy with the managements decisions over the last decade. There is really no comparison between the Indians and Cardinals right now.

In all due respect Lloyd, there is no comparison between Indians and Cardinals fans either. St louis fans support their baseball team, unhappy or not. Cleveland fans are more oriented toward football and basketball even though the performance of those Cleveland teams is far worse than the Indians this past year. And I am not making fun of Cleveland fans. I happen to be an Indians fan, not a Cleveland fan but it is hard to argue with the numbers. :pleasantry:
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