RSS Twitter Facebook YouTube
Expand Menu

2011 Prospect rankings

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:29 pm

Baseball America released their Indians list today:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/p ... 10944.html

No real surprises.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:31 pm

1. Chisenhall
2. White
3. Kipnis
4. Pomeranz
5. Weglarz
6. Knapp
7. Washington
8. Wolters
9. Gardner
10. Hagadone
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:00 pm

I know BA's future lineup bit is almost never accurate.....but thought it was interesting that they put Carlos Carrasco as our #3 starter for 2014.....but had Knapp as the #5. Not sure this is just random (very possible), if they are just that high on Carrasco (have him above Carmona in the rotation)....or just not that high on Knapp....
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby TitoFrancona » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:25 pm

TonyIPI wrote:1. Chisenhall
2. White
3. Kipnis
4. Pomeranz
5. Weglarz
6. Knapp
7. Washington
8. Wolters
9. Gardner
10. Hagadone


I'm surprised. For one thing, Wolters and Washington don't belong in the top 10 - especially over Phelps. WTF does this guy have to do to get any love from anybody?

Secondly, Hagadone as a reliever most definitely does not belong in the top 10. As a starter, maybe.
TitoFrancona
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:35 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:1. Chisenhall
2. White
3. Kipnis
4. Pomeranz
5. Weglarz
6. Knapp
7. Washington
8. Wolters
9. Gardner
10. Hagadone


I'm surprised. For one thing, Wolters and Washington don't belong in the top 10 - especially over Phelps. WTF does this guy have to do to get any love from anybody?

Secondly, Hagadone as a reliever most definitely does not belong in the top 10. As a starter, maybe.


Agree with the top six or so, after that, I disagree completely with their list. Hagadone, IMO, doesn't belong in the top ten, I'd slide Washington down to 8-9. Wolters 7? Not sure about that one either. Gardner I'd have 9-10.
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:47 pm

Being a numbers junkie..not for numbers sake,mind you.. but to represent numerically agreement and variance...this is just a quick numerical review of the lists, confined to the first ten spots (all that BA gives)... it looks like there are some differences between the BA, Art Gold & the GSon Listings:

...........BA...................GSon...............ArtGold
1. Chisenhall..................# 1................. # 3
2. White........................# 4.................# 4
3. Kipnis........................# 2.................# 2
4. Pomeranz...................# 5.................# 5
5. Weglarz.....................# 8.................# 6
6. Knapp.......................# 7.................# 1
7. Washington................# 3.................# 9
8. Wolters.....................# 16...............# 16
9. Gardner.....................# 13...............# 7
10. Hagadone................# 11...............# 14

Here are some key points:
-BA & GSon agree Lonnie Chisenhall is the Indians # 1 Prospect..
-ArtGold and BA agree on NOTHING...
-GSon and ArtGold agree that:
1. Jason Kipnis is the Indians # 2 Prospect
2. Alex White is the Indians # 4 Prospect
3. Drew Pomeranz is the Indians # 5 Prospect
4. Tony Wolters is the Indians # 16 Prospect

Simple Weighted Agreement Factor with Baseball America:
BA Average Weighted Value/standard = 5.5
GSon Average Weighted Value = 7.0
ArtGold Average Weighted Value = 6.7

or.. Artgold's listing agrees with BA's listing by 5 1/2 % more than GSon's listing...what ever that means...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:21 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:I'm surprised. For one thing, Wolters and Washington don't belong in the top 10 - especially over Phelps. WTF does this guy have to do to get any love from anybody?


Tito, I agree that Wolters at this point probably should not be above Phelps. But Phelps is a fringe Top 10 guy....more in the teens. Remember, this listing is based on projection, and not what these guys did in 2010. Phelps had a nice year offensively, but since he has limited power and is not a great glove man, his prospect status takes a serious ding.

Washington absolutely without a doubt belongs ahead of Phelps and every other position player not named Chisenhall/Kipnis.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby OhioBaseball » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:09 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:I'm surprised. For one thing, Wolters and Washington don't belong in the top 10 - especially over Phelps. WTF does this guy have to do to get any love from anybody?


Tito, I agree that Wolters at this point probably should not be above Phelps. But Phelps is a fringe Top 10 guy....more in the teens. Remember, this listing is based on projection, and not what these guys did in 2010. Phelps had a nice year offensively, but since he has limited power and is not a great glove man, his prospect status takes a serious ding.

Washington absolutely without a doubt belongs ahead of Phelps and every other position player not named Chisenhall/Kipnis.


I suspect Wolters' inflated $1.3 million signing bonus has a lot to do with him being in the top 10, as an extrinsic cue. "He signed for how much? Well, he must be pretty good." I'm not here to rip on Wolters b/c I'm happy to have him in the system, but his agent did some tremendous work getting him that much money in the 3rd round.
OhioBaseball
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:00 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:33 am

OhioBaseball wrote:I suspect Wolters' inflated $1.3 million signing bonus has a lot to do with him being in the top 10, as an extrinsic cue. "He signed for how much? Well, he must be pretty good." I'm not here to rip on Wolters b/c I'm happy to have him in the system, but his agent did some tremendous work getting him that much money in the 3rd round.


Yeah, and of no suprise BA typically loads the Top 10 and Top 30 with several players from the recent draft (with merit this year).
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:24 pm

Don't forget that BA picked the Tribe's draft as the best in baseball this year.

I don't agree with some of their picks, but shouldn't be a suprise.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby GoTribe028 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:35 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I know BA's future lineup bit is almost never accurate.....but thought it was interesting that they put Carlos Carrasco as our #3 starter for 2014.....but had Knapp as the #5. Not sure this is just random (very possible), if they are just that high on Carrasco (have him above Carmona in the rotation)....or just not that high on Knapp....


I'd say it's random. In the end, who gives a **** if Knapp is 1, 3, or 5 so long as he's pitching to his ability, same with the other 4?

I guess what I'm saying is dont get caught up in one prediction from any site, let alone BA. It'll all work itself out in the end.

:drinks:
Follow me on Twitter @GoTribe028 for useless and random tweets.
GoTribe028
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby petes999 » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:45 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I know BA's future lineup bit is almost never accurate.....but thought it was interesting that they put Carrasco as our #3 starter for 2014.....but had Knapp as the #5. Not sure this is just random (very possible), if they are just that high on Carrasco (have him above Carmona in the rotation)....or just not that high on Knapp....


I'd say it's random. In the end, who gives a **** if Knapp is 1, 3, or 5 so long as he's pitching to his ability, same with the other 4?

I guess what I'm saying is dont get caught up in one prediction from any site, let alone BA. It'll all work itself out in the end.

:drinks:


Also remember this is in 3 years after Knapp is suspected to make it through A+, AA and some AAA time. So, even though long-term, he is the best prospect in line for #1 slot, not in his first full year (expecting him up at some point in 2013).
petes999
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:36 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I know BA's future lineup bit is almost never accurate.....but thought it was interesting that they put Carlos Carrasco as our #3 starter for 2014.....but had Knapp as the #5. Not sure this is just random (very possible), if they are just that high on Carrasco (have him above Carmona in the rotation)....or just not that high on Knapp....


I'd say it's random. In the end, who gives a **** if Knapp is 1, 3, or 5 so long as he's pitching to his ability, same with the other 4?

I guess what I'm saying is dont get caught up in one prediction from any site, let alone BA. It'll all work itself out in the end.

:drinks:


I wasn't concerned with the rotation they gave....as I said, they are never, ever right with that stuff.

But the fact that they only put Knapp at the 5th spot kind of suprised me, especially putting him behind Carrasco. Usually they take a top prospect with a high ceiling like Knapp and put him #1 or #2 even if they're at A-ball.

Again, means nothing in the end (as do the rankings in general when you think about it). Just something I found interesting though :drinks:
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby TitoFrancona » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:17 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:I'm surprised. For one thing, Wolters and Washington don't belong in the top 10 - especially over Phelps. WTF does this guy have to do to get any love from anybody?


Tito, I agree that Wolters at this point probably should not be above Phelps. But Phelps is a fringe Top 10 guy....more in the teens. Remember, this listing is based on projection, and not what these guys did in 2010. Phelps had a nice year offensively, but since he has limited power and is not a great glove man, his prospect status takes a serious ding.

Washington absolutely without a doubt belongs ahead of Phelps and every other position player not named Chisenhall/Kipnis.


Well, again, Phelps has never gotten any respect from most of the forum dwellers. I personally liked this guy from day one. For what it's worth, I think Cord will be our #2 hitter and starting 2nd baseman (or 3rd baseman) by mid-season. I think he's for real. As far as power is concerned, I see him eventually hitting somewhere between 12 - 16 HRs per, but more importantly, he'll have a high OBP.

As far as Washington is concerned, I guess it remains to be seen if he is the 2nd coming of Carl Crawford or Odibbe McDowell.
TitoFrancona
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:09 am

I remember when the Indians drafted Phelps. I tend to like upside guys in the draft, so my initial reaction to the selection was disappointment. When watching him play the infield, it was apparent that he doesn't have the athleticism that major league middle infielders tend to have. "Oh great, he's stiff bodied middle infielder with below avg. speed (for the position) and doesn't project for much power". For me, it was easy to dwell on that at the beginning. HOWEVER, when you get beyond his lack of speed, athleticism, etc., you actually have a guy with a strong, athletic body build. He also has a short swing and the guy actually gets quite good extension through his swing, so there is some power there. While it's not home run power, he's got legitimate gap, line-drive power. When you consider his body build (which is good) and his command of the strike zone, this is a guy that could begin to hit 15 HR around 27-28 years old.

I don't see the guy being a major league average caliber 2B defensively just based off of his athleticism and his infield actions, which could look awkward, especially around the bag. I think Phelps gets thrown into the "low on tools" pool, but it's important not to overlook the fact that the guy actually has a good amount of size with an athletic build, and his swing is legit.

This guy is a pretty good prospect. Its very difficult comparing an 18 year old to a 23 year old, but if I were the Indians and could only keep one guy or the other, I would favor Phelps and it's not all that close. Wolters has a LOT of proving to do.
OhioBaseball
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:00 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:26 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:Well, again, Phelps has never gotten any respect from most of the forum dwellers. I personally liked this guy from day one. For what it's worth, I think Cord will be our #2 hitter and starting 2nd baseman (or 3rd baseman) by mid-season. I think he's for real. As far as power is concerned, I see him eventually hitting somewhere between 12 - 16 HRs per, but more importantly, he'll have a high OBP.

As far as Washington is concerned, I guess it remains to be seen if he is the 2nd coming of Carl Crawford or Odibbe McDowell.


Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:14 pm

..Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?...


Brantley LH CF/LF
Asdrubal S SS
Choo LH RF
Santana S C
PRONK LH DH: Manny RH DH
LaPorta RH 1B
Sizemore LH LF/CF
Nix RH 3B: Phelps S 2B/3B
Phelps S 2B/3B: Donald RH 2B

If & when Phelps gets to Cleveland, Manny Acta will have three switch hitters in the lineup (How nice is that?) and will let him adjust lower in the order for a while.. and move him up to the 2-hole against specific RHSP's. The above lineup would be best (with the inclusion of Manny Ramirez in place of PRONK as the DH) against LHSP's.... and puh-lease.. we already know that manny ramirez isn't coming to cleveland.. the dolans are too cheap.. yadda yadda.. Come up with something that Paul Hoynes didn't steal from Patrick Mc-I'm-a-moron.
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby tribefan611 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:35 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
..Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?...


Brantley LH CF/LF
Asdrubal S SS
Choo LH RF
Santana S C
PRONK LH DH: Manny RH DH
LaPorta RH 1B
Sizemore LH LF/CF
Nix RH 3B: Phelps S 2B/3B
Phelps S 2B/3B: Donald RH 2B

If & when Phelps gets to Cleveland, Manny Acta will have three switch hitters in the lineup (How nice is that?) and will let him adjust lower in the order for a while.. and move him up to the 2-hole against specific RHSP's. The above lineup would be best (with the inclusion of Manny Ramirez in place of PRONK as the DH) against LHSP's.... and puh-lease.. we already know that manny ramirez isn't coming to cleveland.. the dolans are too cheap.. yadda yadda.. Come up with something that Paul Hoynes didn't steal from Patrick Mc-I'm-a-moron.


I would like to see Grady 5th. Like this:
1. Brantley
2. Cabrera
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Sizemore
6. Hafner
7. LaPorta
8. Nix
9. Phelps/Donald

Don't like having Grady/Pronk back-to-back, but I don't think I want LaPorta any higher than 7th. I don't see any reason to change Brantley/Cabrera at the top and Choo/Santana are obviously 3-4. I don't know. Could change. Hard for me to see Phelps hitting second unless A-Cab completely :bomb: s.

Just think for a minute, I know I am dreaming, but think about if Grady and Pronk get back to their 30 HR pre-injury form, if LaPorta develops, if Choo continues to get better, and if Santana puts up the numbers he can, then this would be a VERY solid offense.
User avatar
tribefan611
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:39 am

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:41 pm

tribefan611 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
..Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?...


Brantley LH CF/LF
Asdrubal S SS
Choo LH RF
Santana S C
PRONK LH DH: Manny RH DH
LaPorta RH 1B
Sizemore LH LF/CF
Nix RH 3B: Phelps S 2B/3B
Phelps S 2B/3B: Donald RH 2B

If & when Phelps gets to Cleveland, Manny Acta will have three switch hitters in the lineup (How nice is that?) and will let him adjust lower in the order for a while.. and move him up to the 2-hole against specific RHSP's. The above lineup would be best (with the inclusion of Manny Ramirez in place of PRONK as the DH) against LHSP's.... and puh-lease.. we already know that manny ramirez isn't coming to cleveland.. the dolans are too cheap.. yadda yadda.. Come up with something that Paul Hoynes didn't steal from Patrick Mc-I'm-a-moron.


I would like to see Grady 5th. Like this:
1. Brantley
2. Cabrera
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Sizemore
6. Hafner
7. LaPorta
8. Nix
9. Phelps/Donald

Don't like having Grady/Pronk back-to-back, but I don't think I want LaPorta any higher than 7th. I don't see any reason to change Brantley/Cabrera at the top and Choo/Santana are obviously 3-4. I don't know. Could change. Hard for me to see Phelps hitting second unless A-Cab completely :bomb: s.

Just think for a minute, I know I am dreaming, but think about if Grady and Pronk get back to their 30 HR pre-injury form, if LaPorta develops, if Choo continues to get better, and if Santana puts up the numbers he can, then this would be a VERY solid offense.


1. ACab
2. Sizemore
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Hafner
6. LaPorta
7. Nix
8. Donald
9. Brantley
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:52 am

A.Zajac wrote:
tribefan611 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
..Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?...


Brantley LH CF/LF
Asdrubal S SS
Choo LH RF
Santana S C
PRONK LH DH: Manny RH DH
LaPorta RH 1B
Sizemore LH LF/CF
Nix RH 3B: Phelps S 2B/3B
Phelps S 2B/3B: Donald RH 2B

If & when Phelps gets to Cleveland, Manny Acta will have three switch hitters in the lineup (How nice is that?) and will let him adjust lower in the order for a while.. and move him up to the 2-hole against specific RHSP's. The above lineup would be best (with the inclusion of Manny Ramirez in place of PRONK as the DH) against LHSP's.... and puh-lease.. we already know that manny ramirez isn't coming to cleveland.. the dolans are too cheap.. yadda yadda.. Come up with something that Paul Hoynes didn't steal from Patrick Mc-I'm-a-moron.


I would like to see Grady 5th. Like this:
1. Brantley
2. Cabrera
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Sizemore
6. Hafner
7. LaPorta
8. Nix
9. Phelps/Donald

Don't like having Grady/Pronk back-to-back, but I don't think I want LaPorta any higher than 7th. I don't see any reason to change Brantley/Cabrera at the top and Choo/Santana are obviously 3-4. I don't know. Could change. Hard for me to see Phelps hitting second unless A-Cab completely :bomb: s.

Just think for a minute, I know I am dreaming, but think about if Grady and Pronk get back to their 30 HR pre-injury form, if LaPorta develops, if Choo continues to get better, and if Santana puts up the numbers he can, then this would be a VERY solid offense.


1. ACab
2. Sizemore
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Hafner
6. LaPorta
7. Nix
8. Donald
9. Brantley

Just a thought Andrew. Are you sure you want to bunch the three RH bats at 6, 7, 8? :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:23 am

indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
tribefan611 wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
..Interesting....and where exactly do you see Brantley, Grady, and AC hitting by mid-season?...


Brantley LH CF/LF
Asdrubal S SS
Choo LH RF
Santana S C
PRONK LH DH: Manny RH DH
LaPorta RH 1B
Sizemore LH LF/CF
Nix RH 3B: Phelps S 2B/3B
Phelps S 2B/3B: Donald RH 2B

If & when Phelps gets to Cleveland, Manny Acta will have three switch hitters in the lineup (How nice is that?) and will let him adjust lower in the order for a while.. and move him up to the 2-hole against specific RHSP's. The above lineup would be best (with the inclusion of Manny Ramirez in place of PRONK as the DH) against LHSP's.... and puh-lease.. we already know that manny ramirez isn't coming to cleveland.. the dolans are too cheap.. yadda yadda.. Come up with something that Paul Hoynes didn't steal from Patrick Mc-I'm-a-moron.


I would like to see Grady 5th. Like this:
1. Brantley
2. Cabrera
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Sizemore
6. Hafner
7. LaPorta
8. Nix
9. Phelps/Donald

Don't like having Grady/Pronk back-to-back, but I don't think I want LaPorta any higher than 7th. I don't see any reason to change Brantley/Cabrera at the top and Choo/Santana are obviously 3-4. I don't know. Could change. Hard for me to see Phelps hitting second unless A-Cab completely :bomb: s.

Just think for a minute, I know I am dreaming, but think about if Grady and Pronk get back to their 30 HR pre-injury form, if LaPorta develops, if Choo continues to get better, and if Santana puts up the numbers he can, then this would be a VERY solid offense.


1. ACab
2. Sizemore
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Hafner
6. LaPorta
7. Nix
8. Donald
9. Brantley

Just a thought Andrew. Are you sure you want to bunch the three RH bats at 6, 7, 8? :pleasantry:


I don't particularly want to.. no. But LaPorta would be in the 5-7 range, Nix 5-7 range, Donald 7-9.. I don't really think any of them belong at the top of the lineup.
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:08 pm

A.Zajac wrote:1. ACab
2. Sizemore
3. Choo
4. Santana
5. Hafner
6. LaPorta
7. Nix
8. Donald
9. Brantley


Don't see the logic in AC hitting leadoff. His OBP was ok in 2009 so I understand why they tried it, but Grady with no power doesn't need to be behing him. Grady still draws walks and belongs in the leadoff spot before AC. All depends on where Brantley hits too. I'd almost hit him leadoff and drop AC to 5th as he showed no speed this past year and doesn't have the OBP skills to hit leadoff.
Hermie13
MLB All Star
 
Posts: 7120
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Cleveland, OH

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby davidkey » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:55 pm

I think Brantley should start the year leading off. He has a chance to be real good leadoff hitter if he can increase his walks a bit and develop into a .280-.300 hitter. With the higher OBS, the stolen bases go up, and the more runs he scores. He needs to be given at least the whole first half, if not all of 2011 season, to let everyone figure out what he can/can't do. Worse case, he drops down to 9th and plays LF in late 2011 and beyond. Absolute worst case, he ends up a solid 4th OF who can run faster and play the field better than Trevor Crowe.

A-Cab, when healthy and productive, can be a very good #2 hitter.

Sizemore should never again smell the lead-off spot unless he gets back to his 2006 form, and that's just not gonna happen. Since then, as we all know, he has regressed terribly as a hitter. Waaaaaaay too many strikeouts, always trying to pull the ball/swinging for the fences. Unless he hits 1.000 in spring training, I think he should start the year batting anywhere from 5th to 7th (depending on where you wanna bat Pronk and LaPorta, given the whole lefty/righty thing)

...............................Or maybe we trade Hafner for Rickey Henderson (circa 1991) to bat leadoff and Placido Polanco (circa 2007) to bat 2nd, and let the rest of the pieces fall where they may. :good:
davidkey
Undrafted Free Agent
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:32 pm

Re: 2010 Prospect rankings

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:25 am

Sickels has his prelim Tribe Prospect List with the players named but no rankings/grades yet. He called it a "brutal" one, due to the "incredible depth of C+ type prospects." He's already been talked into dropping Mills, who was/is my All-Time Least Favorite Tribe Draft Pick. That's Mills' official title.

I assume the ranked list comes out today. Just a heads up.
Rocky55
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby gotribe31 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:56 am

Baseball Prospectus put out their list this morning:

Five-Star Prospects
1. Jason Kipnis, 2B
2. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B
Four-Star Prospects
3. Drew Pomeranz, LHP
4. Alex White, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
5. LeVon Washington, OF
6. Nick Weglarz, OF
7. Joe Gardner, RHP
8. Jason Knapp, RHP
9. Tony Wolters, SS
10. Cord Phelps, 2B/3B
11. Kyle Blair, RHP

Nine More:

12. Bryce Stowell, RHP: This power reliever whiffed 102 over 67 1/3 innings in 2010; his upper-90s fastball should reach the majors in 2011.
13. Alex Lavisky, C: He was the high school catcher of Pirates RHP Stetson Allie; Lavisky has athleticism, defensive skills, and power projection.
14. Nick Hagadone, LHP: His velocity isn't all the way back from Tommy John surgery, while command and control are still big issues.
15. Austin Adams, RHP: This small but athletic righty has above-average velocity and control.
16. Zach Putnam, RHP: Another potential part of 2011 major-league bullpen, Putnam has a plus fastball and a split/change
17. Jess Todd, RHP: This former Cardinals prospect regressed in 2010, but he still has bullpen possibilities.
18. Jordan Henry, OF: Henry is a center fielder with speed and plate discipline but zero power.
19. Tyler Holt, OF: A 10th-round pick similar to Henry, Holt has less speed but more strength. He could move up this year.
20. T.J. House, LHP: Making slow and steady progress, House will find that Double-A will his test ability to miss bats.



Interesting that he has Kip as a 5-star guy. He's always been a little higher on him than most.
gotribe31
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:05 am

gotribe31 wrote:Baseball Prospectus put out their list this morning:

Five-Star Prospects
1. Jason Kipnis, 2B
2. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B
Four-Star Prospects
3. Drew Pomeranz, LHP
4. Alex White, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
5. LeVon Washington, OF
6. Nick Weglarz, OF
7. Joe Gardner, RHP
8. Jason Knapp, RHP
9. Tony Wolters, SS
10. Cord Phelps, 2B/3B
11. Kyle Blair, RHP

Nine More:

12. Bryce Stowell, RHP: This power reliever whiffed 102 over 67 1/3 innings in 2010; his upper-90s fastball should reach the majors in 2011.
13. Alex Lavisky, C: He was the high school catcher of Pirates RHP Stetson Allie; Lavisky has athleticism, defensive skills, and power projection.
14. Nick Hagadone, LHP: His velocity isn't all the way back from Tommy John surgery, while command and control are still big issues.
15. Austin Adams, RHP: This small but athletic righty has above-average velocity and control.
16. Zach Putnam, RHP: Another potential part of 2011 major-league bullpen, Putnam has a plus fastball and a split/change
17. Jess Todd, RHP: This former Cardinals prospect regressed in 2010, but he still has bullpen possibilities.
18. Jordan Henry, OF: Henry is a center fielder with speed and plate discipline but zero power.
19. Tyler Holt, OF: A 10th-round pick similar to Henry, Holt has less speed but more strength. He could move up this year.
20. T.J. House, LHP: Making slow and steady progress, House will find that Double-A will his test ability to miss bats.



Interesting that he has Kip as a 5-star guy. He's always been a little higher on him than most.


What I find interesting is he has Pomeranz as a 4-star (was expecting a 5), and Washington/Knapp both 3-stars (was expecting 4). Nevertheless, interesting.
Follow me on Twitter!
@AndrewIPI
User avatar
A.Zajac
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3141
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 10:31 am
Location: Struthers, OH

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby gotribe31 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:28 am

A.Zajac wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:Baseball Prospectus put out their list this morning:

Five-Star Prospects
1. Jason Kipnis, 2B
2. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B
Four-Star Prospects
3. Drew Pomeranz, LHP
4. Alex White, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
5. LeVon Washington, OF
6. Nick Weglarz, OF
7. Joe Gardner, RHP
8. Jason Knapp, RHP
9. Tony Wolters, SS
10. Cord Phelps, 2B/3B
11. Kyle Blair, RHP

Nine More:

12. Bryce Stowell, RHP: This power reliever whiffed 102 over 67 1/3 innings in 2010; his upper-90s fastball should reach the majors in 2011.
13. Alex Lavisky, C: He was the high school catcher of Pirates RHP Stetson Allie; Lavisky has athleticism, defensive skills, and power projection.
14. Nick Hagadone, LHP: His velocity isn't all the way back from Tommy John surgery, while command and control are still big issues.
15. Austin Adams, RHP: This small but athletic righty has above-average velocity and control.
16. Zach Putnam, RHP: Another potential part of 2011 major-league bullpen, Putnam has a plus fastball and a split/change
17. Jess Todd, RHP: This former Cardinals prospect regressed in 2010, but he still has bullpen possibilities.
18. Jordan Henry, OF: Henry is a center fielder with speed and plate discipline but zero power.
19. Tyler Holt, OF: A 10th-round pick similar to Henry, Holt has less speed but more strength. He could move up this year.
20. T.J. House, LHP: Making slow and steady progress, House will find that Double-A will his test ability to miss bats.



Interesting that he has Kip as a 5-star guy. He's always been a little higher on him than most.


What I find interesting is he has Pomeranz as a 4-star (was expecting a 5), and Washington/Knapp both 3-stars (was expecting 4). Nevertheless, interesting.


In the writeups, he says that he expects Knapp to be a closer someday instead of a starter, and Pomz control and lack of a 3rd pitch prevents him from being a 5.
gotribe31
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Fairfax, VA

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:20 pm

Looking over the list..it appears that only Wolters and Blair are "added" to the concensus of top tens from previous lists on this site. For this list delineation of talent level, be they five stars or four stars or even three stars doesn't appear to be a "massive chasm".. If you go back into the history of the BP top 11 listing.. from just last year you find a mix of five star prospects that haven't made any impact for their MLB clubs (due to age.. due to performance.. due to unknown) while others have been exactly as presented.. examples include the sf giants.. who had two five star prospects.. Bumgarner and Posey.. who were both instrumental in the Giants ascension to the WS championship.. other teams had four and three star prospects that impacted their club.. In short. it's a relative rating.. depends on the club.. the age of the prospect..etc. In the end.. it's a fair list.. with some 'statements' that may be a bit of an embellishment..
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby theshow » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:49 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Baseball Prospectus put out their list this morning:


Quote:
Five-Star Prospects
1. Jason Kipnis, 2B
2. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B
Four-Star Prospects
3. Drew Pomeranz, LHP
4. Alex White, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
5. LeVon Washington, OF
6. Nick Weglarz, OF
7. Joe Gardner, RHP
8. Jason Knapp, RHP
9. Tony Wolters, SS
10. Cord Phelps, 2B/3B
11. Kyle Blair, RHP

Nine More:

12. Bryce Stowell, RHP: This power reliever whiffed 102 over 67 1/3 innings in 2010; his upper-90s fastball should reach the majors in 2011.
13. Alex Lavisky, C: He was the high school catcher of Pirates RHP Stetson Allie; Lavisky has athleticism, defensive skills, and power projection.
14. Nick Hagadone, LHP: His velocity isn't all the way back from Tommy John surgery, while command and control are still big issues.
15. Austin Adams, RHP: This small but athletic righty has above-average velocity and control.
16. Zach Putnam, RHP: Another potential part of 2011 major-league bullpen, Putnam has a plus fastball and a split/change
17. Jess Todd, RHP: This former Cardinals prospect regressed in 2010, but he still has bullpen possibilities.
18. Jordan Henry, OF: Henry is a center fielder with speed and plate discipline but zero power.
19. Tyler Holt, OF: A 10th-round pick similar to Henry, Holt has less speed but more strength. He could move up this year.
20. T.J. House, LHP: Making slow and steady progress, House will find that Double-A will his test ability to miss bats.


The emphasis on the 2010 draft picks is a little bit surprising. I like Wolters and Lavisky but what have they really proven to get themselves on the radar? They are all projection but I suppose that is how all 18 and 19 year olds are. I was a little surprised to see Austin Adams. Do most people consider him that good of a prospect? I would have thought Judy or someone like that is in higher standing. I dont know much about Adams, what are his strenghs/weaknesses? I think Tony wrote an article on him once, but I wasn't motivated to read anything that day.

Given the emormous amount of potential bullpen arms we have, I am really hopefull we don't sign a relief pitcher. I hope Germano get released too, I dont see value in him. Call me crazy too but I still don't hate Aaron Laffey. I think he can still salvage himself into something worthwhile. I like Hermann, as well as what I saw of Pestano. Why take guys off the scrap heap when you may have some worthwhile bullpen options in house?
theshow
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 372
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:00 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TitoFrancona » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:12 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:Baseball Prospectus put out their list this morning:

Five-Star Prospects
1. Jason Kipnis, 2B
2. Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B
Four-Star Prospects
3. Drew Pomeranz, LHP
4. Alex White, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
5. LeVon Washington, OF
6. Nick Weglarz, OF
7. Joe Gardner, RHP
8. Jason Knapp, RHP
9. Tony Wolters, SS
10. Cord Phelps, 2B/3B
11. Kyle Blair, RHP

Nine More:

12. Bryce Stowell, RHP: This power reliever whiffed 102 over 67 1/3 innings in 2010; his upper-90s fastball should reach the majors in 2011.
13. Alex Lavisky, C: He was the high school catcher of Pirates RHP Stetson Allie; Lavisky has athleticism, defensive skills, and power projection.
14. Nick Hagadone, LHP: His velocity isn't all the way back from Tommy John surgery, while command and control are still big issues.
15. Austin Adams, RHP: This small but athletic righty has above-average velocity and control.
16. Zach Putnam, RHP: Another potential part of 2011 major-league bullpen, Putnam has a plus fastball and a split/change
17. Jess Todd, RHP: This former Cardinals prospect regressed in 2010, but he still has bullpen possibilities.
18. Jordan Henry, OF: Henry is a center fielder with speed and plate discipline but zero power.
19. Tyler Holt, OF: A 10th-round pick similar to Henry, Holt has less speed but more strength. He could move up this year.
20. T.J. House, LHP: Making slow and steady progress, House will find that Double-A will his test ability to miss bats.



Interesting that he has Kip as a 5-star guy. He's always been a little higher on him than most.


What I find interesting is he has Pomeranz as a 4-star (was expecting a 5), and Washington/Knapp both 3-stars (was expecting 4). Nevertheless, interesting.


In the writeups, he says that he expects Knapp to be a closer someday instead of a starter, and Pomz control and lack of a 3rd pitch prevents him from being a 5.



I wouldn't think any "analyst" would view Pomerantz as a 5 star prospect. Siskels may be the only one in the country that view Kipnis or Chiz as 5 star prospects. I see where he has Hagadone and I agree with him on that one. Hagadone took a huge step backwards last season. He's going to have to have a bounce back season this year.

Of course if his star rating is based strictly on the Indians prospects alone, then yeah Chiz and Kipnis would be 5 star, but if he's using the ranking based on all prospects, he's clearly over rating them
TitoFrancona
Draft Prospect
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:20 pm

Sickels posted his list today. I believe it is the best overall analysis of the system that I have seen thus far. One of the big surprises to me was Blair. I thought I was the only one who had him that high.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/11/ ... #storyjump
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby petes999 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:21 pm

Here is Sickels top 26 for Indians (with his comments deleted to protect is IP rights ..)

1) Lonnie Chisenhall, 3B, Grade B+:
2) Alex White, RHP, Grade B+:
3) Jason Kipnis, 2B, Grade B+:
4) Drew Pomeranz, LHP, Grade B+:
5) Nick Weglarz, OF, Grade B:
6) Jason Knapp, RHP, Grade B:
7) Joe Gardner, RHP, Grade B:
8) LeVon Washington, OF, Grade B-:
9) Nick Hagadone, LHP, Grade B-:
10) Tony Wolters, SS, Grade B-:
11) Chun-Hsiu Chen, C, Grade B-:
12) Kyle Blair, RHP, Grade B-:
13) Bryce Stowell, RHP, Grade B-:
14) Cord Phelps, 2B, Grade C+:
15) Austin Adams, RHP, Grade C+:
16) Tyler Holt, OF, Grade C+:
17) Scott Barnes, LHP, Grade C+.
18) Jordan Henry, OF, Grade C+:
19) Vinnie Pestano, RHP, Grade C+:
20) Zach Putnam, RHP, Grade C+:
21) Matt Packer, LHP, Grade C+:
22) Felix Sterling, RHP, Grade C+:
23) Rob Bryson, RHP, Grade C+:
24) Josh Judy, RHP, Grade C+:
25) Corey Kluber, RHP, Grade C+:
26) Chen Lee, RHP, Grade C+:
OTHERS OF NOTE: Robbie Aviles, RHP; Cory Burns, RHP; Kelvin De La Cruz, LHP; Jared Goedert, 3B; Preston Guilmet, RHP; T.J. House, LHP; Alex Lavisky, C; Zach McAllister, RHP; T.J. McFarland, LHP; Alexander Perez, RHP; Bryan Price, RHP; Josh Rodriguez, INF; Hector Rondon, RHP; Giovanni Soto, LHP; Tyler Sturdevant, RHP; Jess Todd, RHP.
petes999
Single-A Phenom
 
Posts: 559
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:02 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:44 pm

Agree with Slinger, Sickels list is the best I've seen so far. Liked the comments/analysis also.

The only changes I'd make:

Swap Washington & Knapp. I'd like to see Knapp do something for a full season. Like stay healthy. No denying the talent though.

Swap Weglarz & Chen. As Sickels noted, Wegz has trouble staying healthy. Didn't he just get hurt & have to be sent home again? I don't want to call him a big pu..., I mean sissy but...
Chen outplayed Kipnis at Kinston despite being 1.5yrs. younger, plus coming from another country, plus being a catcher. Of course, he needs to do it again next year to show he had his fluke shot. Still:

Chen For Top Ten!!!

Also, I'm a huge Wolters fan but no way he's ranked ahead of Chen. So, last thing, I probably swap Phelps & Wolters. I know I probably still over rate Phelps but he's doing it at the highest level of the minors, as a prospect, not as a 27yr old AAAA guy. Hope he opens the season with the big club.
Rocky55
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1651
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:17 pm

Rocky55 wrote:Agree with Slinger, Sickels list is the best I've seen so far. Liked the comments/analysis also.

The only changes I'd make:

Swap Washington & Knapp. I'd like to see Knapp do something for a full season. Like stay healthy. No denying the talent though.

Swap Weglarz & Chen. As Sickels noted, Wegz has trouble staying healthy. Didn't he just get hurt & have to be sent home again? I don't want to call him a big pu..., I mean sissy but...
Chen outplayed Kipnis at Kinston despite being 1.5yrs. younger, plus coming from another country, plus being a catcher. Of course, he needs to do it again next year to show he had his fluke shot. Still:

Chen For Top Ten!!!

Also, I'm a huge Wolters fan but no way he's ranked ahead of Chen. So, last thing, I probably swap Phelps & Wolters. I know I probably still over rate Phelps but he's doing it at the highest level of the minors, as a prospect, not as a 27yr old AAAA guy. Hope he opens the season with the big club.

Chen is close to my top ten and may make it but I am still a Weglarz believer even with the injury concerns which are valid. I also think you have to honor the work of Kipnis in the AAA playoffs but it looks to me there is some hype about his hitting and I just don't buy the comments about his defense just yet. I have phelps ahead of Wolters as well. All in all, my points of disagreement were minimal and quite arguable. :drinks:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby toledobuck » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:46 pm

I agree that Sickels' list is pretty good especially coming from somebody that covers all major league farm systems. Pretty impressive summary. From his list I would say most of the prospect rankings check out OK except I think his rankings for Wolters, Adams, Holt, Henry, & Sterling are a little higher than I have on my list. I also think that some of the other prospects in our system may be top 25 - 30 players as well (ie De La Cruz, Burns, A. Perez, House).
toledobuck
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:07 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby danh8 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:07 pm

In looking through the top prospects and trying to establish a ranking, I came to the realization that this is , in my opinion, the deepest and highest quality ranking/list of Tribe prospects that I can ever recall. I can think of years that our 12th ranked player would be at the very top. My 12th ranked being Joe Gardner. An impressive list of prospects.

I would like to predict that next year at this time, Drew Pomeranz will be the unquestioned top of the list prospect. The guy I talked to about him that watched hi8m in Arizona, said that he was more than impressive, and his velocity was better than ever advertised.

I had a gut feeling that this kid was pitching at quite a bit less than 100% last season, and going off what I was told about him after viewing him extensively in Goodyear, leads me to believe that.
danh8
Rookie Baller
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 12:49 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:29 pm

..but if he's using the ranking based on all prospects..
Yes, his rating is based on all prospects from all teams, i.e. some teams have a Four Star rated prospect as their best.. A LOT of three star guys.. a LOT!!
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:47 pm

I could use some help from the site. In coming up with a top 30, there are four players I am having some trouble with. Foremost is Packer and I am having trouble with his placement. His stuff looks pretty good at Akron but I have trouble with the "appears from nowhere" thing. Can he sustain that level of performance? Next is Clayton Cook who occupies a top 30 spot, ahead of Soto actually. He doesn't get much love from anywhere else but I see excellent potential which I think he grows into. Am I that far off? The last two are Brown and Herrman. I don't see them much on other lists but wondered if it was oversight. I don't have them in my top 30. Actually both fall into a large grouping of 40+ ranked prospects. Too Harsh? Thoughts appreciated! :drinks:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby jellis » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:02 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I could use some help from the site. In coming up with a top 30, there are four players I am having some trouble with. Foremost is Packer and I am having trouble with his placement. His stuff looks pretty good at Akron but I have trouble with the "appears from nowhere" thing. Can he sustain that level of performance? Next is Clayton Cook who occupies a top 30 spot, ahead of Soto actually. He doesn't get much love from anywhere else but I see excellent potential which I think he grows into. Am I that far off? The last two are Brown and Herrman. I don't see them much on other lists but wondered if it was oversight. I don't have them in my top 30. Actually both fall into a large grouping of 40+ ranked prospects. Too Harsh? Thoughts appreciated! :drinks:



I might change mine, I did it in a rush, and cant believe I left cook off. As for Hermann and Brown, I just think other people are more talented
jellis
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 3016
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby artgold » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:44 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I could use some help from the site. In coming up with a top 30, there are four players I am having some trouble with. Foremost is Packer and I am having trouble with his placement. His stuff looks pretty good at Akron but I have trouble with the "appears from nowhere" thing. Can he sustain that level of performance? Next is Clayton Cook who occupies a top 30 spot, ahead of Soto actually. He doesn't get much love from anywhere else but I see excellent potential which I think he grows into. Am I that far off? The last two are Brown and Herrman. I don't see them much on other lists but wondered if it was oversight. I don't have them in my top 30. Actually both fall into a large grouping of 40+ ranked prospects. Too Harsh? Thoughts appreciated! :drinks:


Brown and Herrmann will both be 27 next season, eliminating them from consideration in my listing.

Clayton Cook was one of 12 pitchers to pitch at least 40 innings at Lake County this past season, and he was only 11th in strikeout rate in that group. Though he was a bit younger than the others, the difference in age wasn't that much and he didn't offset this with a great WHIP, finishing in the middle of the pack in that group of 12 pitchers at Lake.

As far as Packer goes, coming out of nowhere is always a concern for a flash-in-the-pan, but I have him at 23 due to his BB/K rate at Lake County and his performance after the two step promotion to Akron. I was especially impressed with how well he came back in consecutive subsequent starts after getting absolutely rocked against Reading. I thought he might cave after that fiasco, but he ended up the season with two great outings with Akron, especially kicking up his strikeout totals. Finally, he also didn't tail off at the end of the season despite getting a decent number of innings pitched.
artgold
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:00 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:57 am

artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I could use some help from the site. In coming up with a top 30, there are four players I am having some trouble with. Foremost is Packer and I am having trouble with his placement. His stuff looks pretty good at Akron but I have trouble with the "appears from nowhere" thing. Can he sustain that level of performance? Next is Clayton Cook who occupies a top 30 spot, ahead of Soto actually. He doesn't get much love from anywhere else but I see excellent potential which I think he grows into. Am I that far off? The last two are Brown and Herrman. I don't see them much on other lists but wondered if it was oversight. I don't have them in my top 30. Actually both fall into a large grouping of 40+ ranked prospects. Too Harsh? Thoughts appreciated! :drinks:


Brown and Herrmann will both be 27 next season, eliminating them from consideration in my listing.

Clayton Cook was one of 12 pitchers to pitch at least 40 innings at Lake County this past season, and he was only 11th in strikeout rate in that group. Though he was a bit younger than the others, the difference in age wasn't that much and he didn't offset this with a great WHIP, finishing in the middle of the pack in that group of 12 pitchers at Lake.

As far as Packer goes, coming out of nowhere is always a concern for a flash-in-the-pan, but I have him at 23 due to his BB/K rate at Lake County and his performance after the two step promotion to Akron. I was especially impressed with how well he came back in consecutive subsequent starts after getting absolutely rocked against Reading. I thought he might cave after that fiasco, but he ended up the season with two great outings with Akron, especially kicking up his strikeout totals. Finally, he also didn't tail off at the end of the season despite getting a decent number of innings pitched.

Thanks Art. I have Packer abut the same spot as you do but I cannot shake the feeling that he may no more than a middling reliever once they get a read on his stuff. Guess time will tell.

As far as Cook goes, I don't believe it is a reasonable comp to use so many older pitchers. Only Haley, and later Soto, was in his age bracket. Most of the prospects you are using are 2-4 years older than Cook. Yeah, there was a drop in K rate, especially in the first half but there was a corresponding drop in BB and a great HR rate. I know you don't care for FIP but I don't find your comparison to much older players persuasive in this instance. Soto, a valid comp IMO, did not perform as well at LC as Cook during their time there and does not project the physical growth IMO. :friends:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:29 am

Frank Herrman.. or Soup-Herrman... Pretty old to be a prospect certainly..and the reason he was left off my list.. His tenure at AAA Columbus was incredible & his promotion to Cleveland was well deserved. Once in Cleveland..he started out like his hair was on fire. The key to Herrman being a productive member of the pen was his ability to throw more than just his hard tailing/sinking fastball. He seemed to fall in love with that pitch.. and ONLY that pitch. His slider doesn't really slide that much and it appears he doesn't have a great deal of confidence with his changeup.. or at least, he seldom threw it. Without one or the other off speed pitchers, he's hittable. With either one, he can be devastating.

Perhaps a more veteran catcher with the backing of a strong pitching coach will "help" Soup-Herrman see the error of his ways and make him throw more than his fastball?.. we can only hope...
GeronimoSon
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 3948
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:17 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby artgold » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:35 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:As far as Cook goes, I don't believe it is a reasonable comp to use so many older pitchers. Only Haley, and later Soto, was in his age bracket. Most of the prospects you are using are 2-4 years older than Cook. Yeah, there was a drop in K rate, especially in the first half but there was a corresponding drop in BB and a great HR rate. I know you don't care for FIP but I don't find your comparison to much older players persuasive in this instance. Soto, a valid comp IMO, did not perform as well at LC as Cook during their time there and does not project the physical growth IMO. :friends:


In doing analysis, I don't just compare our guys against each other, I also look at peers from other organizations. I just summarized Cook against our guys in my statement about very low K rate and mediocre WHIP.

However, when you compare him against other guys his age in his league, he doesn't stick out either. I looked at pitchers like Tyler Skaggs, Nick Bucci, Shelby Miller and Ian Kroll, and saw similar performances. Just a tick older than Cook are pitchers such as Jake Odorizzi, Fab Mesa, Matt Magill, Erasmo Ramirez and Al Webster who put up far better numbers than Cook.

In evaluating younger players I consider for my top 30 listing I also often look at historical comps. For Cook I went back 10, 15 and 20 years to see who had the highest "most similar" statistical scores and pitched at least 100 innings that season. I look at HR rates, WHIP, BB and K rates. Most similars for Cook were Mike Nannini (2000 in the Astros system), Brian Rose (1995 in Red Sox system) and Matt Murray (1990 in Braves system). I also confirm performance by validating they had at least two subsequent years where they pitched reasonably well for at least 100 innings of work, to negate any immediate injury issues. As you know, none of these three amounted to much in the major leagues.

I state all of this as someone who was a significant supporter of Clayton Cook. Last year I had him at #19 on my top 30 listing, higher than anyone else submitting listings and the national prospect rating sites. However, I didn't see the strong follow up I was hoping for to support the rating, so I've dropped him a bit this season.
artgold
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:00 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:15 pm

artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As far as Cook goes, I don't believe it is a reasonable comp to use so many older pitchers. Only Haley, and later Soto, was in his age bracket. Most of the prospects you are using are 2-4 years older than Cook. Yeah, there was a drop in K rate, especially in the first half but there was a corresponding drop in BB and a great HR rate. I know you don't care for FIP but I don't find your comparison to much older players persuasive in this instance. Soto, a valid comp IMO, did not perform as well at LC as Cook during their time there and does not project the physical growth IMO. :friends:


In doing analysis, I don't just compare our guys against each other, I also look at peers from other organizations. I just summarized Cook against our guys in my statement about very low K rate and mediocre WHIP.

However, when you compare him against other guys his age in his league, he doesn't stick out either. I looked at pitchers like Tyler Skaggs, Nick Bucci, Shelby Miller and Ian Kroll, and saw similar performances. Just a tick older than Cook are pitchers such as Jake Odorizzi, Fab Mesa, Matt Magill, Erasmo Ramirez and Al Webster who put up far better numbers than Cook.

In evaluating younger players I consider for my top 30 listing I also often look at historical comps. For Cook I went back 10, 15 and 20 years to see who had the highest "most similar" statistical scores and pitched at least 100 innings that season. I look at HR rates, WHIP, BB and K rates. Most similars for Cook were Mike Nannini (2000 in the Astros system), Brian Rose (1995 in Red Sox system) and Matt Murray (1990 in Braves system). I also confirm performance by validating they had at least two subsequent years where they pitched reasonably well for at least 100 innings of work, to negate any immediate injury issues. As you know, none of these three amounted to much in the major leagues.

I state all of this as someone who was a significant supporter of Clayton Cook. Last year I had him at #19 on my top 30 listing, higher than anyone else submitting listings and the national prospect rating sites. However, I didn't see the strong follow up I was hoping for to support the rating, so I've dropped him a bit this season.

Now this I like. Gives me something to think about. As for last year, I had Cook exactly halfway between Tony at 39 and you at 19. On my current list, Cook comes in at 26. Interestingly enough, he was one slot ahead of McFarland last year and the two have similar positions right now on my list. Probably just a thing for pitchers who throw strikes and ground balls. :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Dec 02, 2010 4:28 pm

General question on the Brown Herrman thing. Is the age cutoff something written somewhere or just a personal cutoff? In my case, age plays a factor in the lack of projection but neither looks particularly talented to me. As GS noted, Hermann is mostly a one pitch and Brown does not have the offensive or defensive skills to play ML baseball. But I am curious about this age cutoff. :pleasantry:
indianinkslinger
Triple-A Stud
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:10 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:General question on the Brown Herrman thing. Is the age cutoff something written somewhere or just a personal cutoff? In my case, age plays a factor in the lack of projection but neither looks particularly talented to me. As GS noted, Hermann is mostly a one pitch and Brown does not have the offensive or defensive skills to play ML baseball. But I am curious about this age cutoff. :pleasantry:


Speaking for myself, all ages are included and there is no cutoff so long as they still have rookie status. Now, of course age is used when evaluating their prospect standing and such, and in the case of Herrmann he is probably in the 40-60 range for me and Brown a little higher, maybe 30-40.
User avatar
TonyIBI
MLB Rookie
 
Posts: 5056
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby artgold » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:22 pm

And speaking just for myself I generally wouldn't include a player who will be 26 or older next season unless they were coming off a severe injury and had subsequently shown themselves to likely be a plus late bloomer.

But those are very rare, typically they would be pitchers coming off a couple of lost seasons due to TJ surgery.
artgold
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:00 am

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:53 pm

SportsWeekly did its organizational report on the Tribe today (12/15/10). As part of it they listed 5 intriguing prospects from the farm. Although not stated as being in order of intrigue, the prospects listed were (in order of listing): Alex White, Drew Pomeranez, Lonnie Chisenhall, Jason Kipnis and Jason Knapp.
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:30 pm

http://milbprospects.blogspot.com/p/top ... -team.html

I noticed another site today -MiLBProspects.Blogspot.com
Interestingly they list top 50 prosepcts for each team. Thought others here would want to comment after review.

Only major problem I had on the 1st pass - they still listed Carlos Rivero with the Tribe (at #18). Was also surprised that Bryson was so low (#49) and how high others (Lavisky and Rondon) were listed.

Anyway, here is the listing:
Cleveland Indians
1 Lonnie Chisenhall , 3B , CLE
2 Drew Pomeranz , P , CLE
3 Jason Knapp , P , CLE
4 Alex White , P , CLE
5 Jason Kipnis , 2B , CLE
6 Nick Weglarz , OF , CLE
7 LeVon Washington , OF , CLE
8 Kyle Blair , P , CLE
9 Tony Wolters , SS , CLE
10 Alexander Lavisky , C , CLE
11 Hector Rondon , P , CLE
12 Zach McAllister , P , CLE
13 Tyler Holt , OF , CLE
14 TJ House , P , CLE
15 Zach Putnam , P , CLE
16 Scott Barnes , P , CLE
17 Corey Kluber , P , CLE
18 Carlos Rivero , SS , CLE
19 Jairo Kelly , H , CLE
20 Joe Gardner , P , CLE
21 Tim Fedroff , OF , CLE
22 Matt McBride , C , CLE
23 Cord Phelps , 2B , CLE
24 Chen Chang Lee , P , CLE
25 Kelvin De la Cruz , P , CLE
26 Wes Hodges , 3B , CLE
27 Beau Mills , 1B , CLE
28 Clayton Cook , P , CLE
29 Bryan Price , P , CLE
30 Abner Abreu , OF , CLE
31 Jorge Martinez , SS , CLE
32 Jess Todd , P , CLE
33 Robbie Aviles , P , CLE
34 Nick Hagadone , P , CLE
35 Jordan Henry , OF , CLE
36 Delvi Cid , OF , CLE
37 Alexander Perez , P , CLE
38 Chun Chen , C , CLE
39 Giovanny Urshela , SS , CLE
40 Bryce Stowell , P , CLE
41 Robel Garcia , SS , CLE
42 Ezequiel Carrera , OF , CLE
43 Jordan Cooper , P , CLE
44 Preston Guilmet , P , CLE
45 Felix Sterling , P , CLE
46 Karexon Sanchez , 2B , CLE
47 Michael Goodnight , P , CLE
48 Luigi Rodriguez , H , CLE
49 Robert Bryson , P , CLE
50 Jason Smit , SS , CLE
MadThinker88
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1752
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:48 am
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin

Re: 2011 Prospect rankings

Postby artgold » Wed Dec 22, 2010 12:01 am

Hagadone at #34 and Chen at #38?????
artgold
Double-A Hot Shot
 
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:00 am

Next

Return to Indians Prospect Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest