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Offseason Happenings

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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:59 pm

artgold wrote: ...Biggest problem I see at the moment though, is the bad season by Hagadone. If he can make decent progress this season in pitching deeper into games, and giving up fewer walks, the rotation certainly brightens by next season. If he is only a bullpen option, then I'd have to mark him down as a big disappointment, even if an effective relief pitcher. The Tribe really needs him to be one of their front end starters, and soon.
Progress from TJ surgery (June 2008) through his efforts in 2010 was promising from Hagadone.. his stay in high A Kinston (2009 & start of 2010) was encouraging if for no other reason that he was on the hill and had his velocity back to where he was pre-TJ surgery. He was promoted to Akron (where he'll start the 2011 season) His progress is measureable. The sole issue right now is his command, an issue well chronicled as the last measure of a pitchers full return to health and the confidence needed to be a dominating pitching at any level. Disappointment?.. I'd disagree....
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:11 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
artgold wrote: ...Biggest problem I see at the moment though, is the bad season by Hagadone. If he can make decent progress this season in pitching deeper into games, and giving up fewer walks, the rotation certainly brightens by next season. If he is only a bullpen option, then I'd have to mark him down as a big disappointment, even if an effective relief pitcher. The Tribe really needs him to be one of their front end starters, and soon.
Progress from TJ surgery (June 2008) through his efforts in 2010 was promising from Hagadone.. his stay in high A Kinston (2009 & start of 2010) was encouraging if for no other reason that he was on the hill and had his velocity back to where he was pre-TJ surgery. He was promoted to Akron (where he'll start the 2011 season) His progress is measureable. The sole issue right now is his command, an issue well chronicled as the last measure of a pitchers full return to health and the confidence needed to be a dominating pitching at any level. Disappointment?.. I'd disagree....


I would agree with Art. As a starter, if Hagadon can progress and show that he's the pitcher the Indians thought at the time of the trade, then great, but if he's a reliever, I would view that as a disappointment. He was acquired to be part of the future rotation, not to be in the bullpen. And he clearly has a long way to go. He's 25 now. Don't see him in the majors until next season at earliest, when he'll be 26.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:49 am

GeronimoSon wrote:The last report said that Jeremy Sowers' official status with the Indians organization was he was put on the minor league injury list with a sore shoulder.. there has been no further updates w/r to his status.. Likelihood is he'll become a MiLB FA, able to sign with a club where ever he can hook on.. His career as an Indian.. is OVER... :drinks:


His Indians career ended in September. He became a minor league free agent when last season ended, and I don't expect him back with the Indians.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby danh8 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:03 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
GeronimoSon wrote:
artgold wrote: ...Biggest problem I see at the moment though, is the bad season by Hagadone. If he can make decent progress this season in pitching deeper into games, and giving up fewer walks, the rotation certainly brightens by next season. If he is only a bullpen option, then I'd have to mark him down as a big disappointment, even if an effective relief pitcher. The Tribe really needs him to be one of their front end starters, and soon.
Progress from TJ surgery (June 2008) through his efforts in 2010 was promising from Hagadone.. his stay in high A Kinston (2009 & start of 2010) was encouraging if for no other reason that he was on the hill and had his velocity back to where he was pre-TJ surgery. He was promoted to Akron (where he'll start the 2011 season) His progress is measureable. The sole issue right now is his command, an issue well chronicled as the last measure of a pitchers full return to health and the confidence needed to be a dominating pitching at any level. Disappointment?.. I'd disagree....


I would agree with Art. As a starter, if Hagadon can progress and show that he's the pitcher the Indians thought at the time of the trade, then great, but if he's a reliever, I would view that as a disappointment. He was acquired to be part of the future rotation, not to be in the bullpen. And he clearly has a long way to go. He's 25 now. Don't see him in the majors until next season at earliest, when he'll be 26.


Hagadone reminds me alot of former Indian from the 70's Jim Kern. Although he will be used similarly this season as he was last season..I believe him being in a piggyback starting role early in the season is, as has been explained to me, to give him consistent, regular innings early on. Then, shift him to the pen at midseason to limit innings and better prepare him for his eventual role, which will be in the bullpen.

I don't see him as a starter once in the majors, nor do the Indians. In the limited conversations I've had with some people connected with the team, they view him as a bullpen guy at the major league level.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby Prosecutor » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:50 am

Until he can improve is control I don't even see him as a bullpen guy. You definitely couldn't bring him in with men on base if he can't be trusted not to walk a couple of guys. You'd be limited to using him to start an inning. I could see him as a Bobby Howry/Raffie Bentancourt 8th inning guy if he can harness his command. But he's already 25 and he didn't do well at AA, so his time is running out. There better be significant progress this year or he's done as a prospect, IMO. He's far enough past his TJ surgery that we should be seeing results.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:39 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Until he can improve is control I don't even see him as a bullpen guy. You definitely couldn't bring him in with men on base if he can't be trusted not to walk a couple of guys. You'd be limited to using him to start an inning. I could see him as a Bobby Howry/Raffie Bentancourt 8th inning guy if he can harness his command. But he's already 25 and he didn't do well at AA, so his time is running out. There better be significant progress this year or he's done as a prospect, IMO. He's far enough past his TJ surgery that we should be seeing results.
Midseason of 2008 is when Nick Hagadone had the TJ Surgery. It's typically 12 to 18 months before a pitcher is back to where he was.. The Indians might have been a bit over cautious with respect to pitch limits (50 per outing), but it is in the best interest of getting the player healthy. The 2011 season is going to be crucial for Hagadone. The prevailing thought is he can be a BP arm right away.. the long term: the Indians front office needs to find out if Hagadone has the ability to be a MOR/FOR SP.. Hagadone is slated to start the year in the Akron rotation (to stretch him out & see if he can still be a starter). From there.. it's either a fast track to Cleveland (as a lefty bullpen option).. or to Columbus where his abilty to start will be further developed... 6'5" 235 pound lefties that can bring it in the mid to upper 90's don't grow on trees.. This is a kid the Indians need to be careful with as he develops. In terms of his age.. SO FRIGGAN WHAT.. he's 25 years old.. 1 1/2 years were lost to a single major injury. Lefites have a tendency to develop later... or at their own pace.. We shall see..
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby daingean » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:31 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Until he can improve is control I don't even see him as a bullpen guy. You definitely couldn't bring him in with men on base if he can't be trusted not to walk a couple of guys. You'd be limited to using him to start an inning. I could see him as a Bobby Howry/Raffie Bentancourt 8th inning guy if he can harness his command. But he's already 25 and he didn't do well at AA, so his time is running out. There better be significant progress this year or he's done as a prospect, IMO. He's far enough past his TJ surgery that we should be seeing results.
Midseason of 2008 is when Nick Hagadone had the TJ Surgery. It's typically 12 to 18 months before a pitcher is back to where he was.. The Indians might have been a bit over cautious with respect to pitch limits (50 per outing), but it is in the best interest of getting the player healthy. The 2011 season is going to be crucial for Hagadone. The prevailing thought is he can be a BP arm right away.. the long term: the Indians front office needs to find out if Hagadone has the ability to be a MOR/FOR SP.. Hagadone is slated to start the year in the Akron rotation (to stretch him out & see if he can still be a starter). From there.. it's either a fast track to Cleveland (as a lefty bullpen option).. or to Columbus where his abilty to start will be further developed... 6'5" 235 pound lefties that can bring it in the mid to upper 90's don't grow on trees.. This is a kid the Indians need to be careful with as he develops. In terms of his age.. SO FRIGGAN WHAT.. he's 25 years old.. 1 1/2 years were lost to a single major injury. Lefites have a tendency to develop later... or at their own pace.. We shall see..


I hear ya. Two things that are in Hagadone's favor

1. control is the last thing to return after TJ surgery
2. Tall lefties develop late (i.e. Randy Johnson)

I do hold out hope for Nick to be a FOR SP. He may have the highest ceiling of any pitcher in the system (i.e. lefty + outstanding velocity).
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby Prosecutor » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:31 am

Good points dain and Geronimo. The TJ surgery and the fact that he's tall does factor into it. I never thought about the "tall lefties develop late" part of it. Somebody better tell Chris Sale he shouldn't be in the bigs yet. And wasn't Sam McDowell pretty good at age 22?

By June he'll be three years removed from the surgery so we should be seeing better command.

My problem is that this guy reminds me of John Rocker, or at least the Cleveland version. Big lefty reliever with an upper 90's fastball who couldn't control it and was a total head case. I read that Hagadone tends to get too emotional when he pitches so it brings up the Rocker comparison in my mind, although I'm sure he's nowhere near the nut job that Rocker was. I'm trying to get past this image.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:40 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Good points dain and Geronimo. The TJ surgery and the fact that he's tall does factor into it. I never thought about the "tall lefties develop late" part of it. Somebody better tell Chris Sale he shouldn't be in the bigs yet. And wasn't Sam McDowell pretty good at age 22?

By June he'll be three years removed from the surgery so we should be seeing better command.

My problem is that this guy reminds me of John Rocker, or at least the Cleveland version. Big lefty reliever with an upper 90's fastball who couldn't control it and was a total head case. I read that Hagadone tends to get too emotional when he pitches so it brings up the Rocker comparison in my mind, although I'm sure he's nowhere near the nut job that Rocker was. I'm trying to get past this image.
Go well past a John Rocker comp.. they're nothing at all similar.. Hagadone starting in AA should be a good place.. if he's back (and he should be), his command and assortment of power pitches should play well at Canal Place...
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GoTribe028 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:05 am

I decided that this is worth at least mentioning, since I doubt there is much substance to it. I actually have thought a few times about even starting this, since I saw this on Rotoworld last night....the writer could be telling the truth, I bolded the part that makes me think this is nothing more than a reporter with a friend in the business that passed along something that the write turned into a story, with the obligatory "The Indians are looking to save money" tidbit thrown in. He also fails to mention Sizemore's club option that could be voided/changed to player option if he's traded.

http://www.masnsports.com/phil_wood/201 ... dians.html

On another front, one pretty consistent source tells me that the Nationals are working on "a number" of other trades, though didn't have enough specifics to flesh anything out. Another big league scout tells me he'd heard some "conversations" had taken place between the Nats and the Indians about starting pitcher Fausto Carmona and outfielder Grady Sizemore.

The Tribe is looking to move salary, and Sizemore, coming off of knee surgery, is eligible for free agency in 2012. You may recall that Sizemore was originally an Expos product and was traded - along with Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips - to Cleveland for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew in 2002.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:44 am

The Indians have moved about 25 % of their salary during this offseason.. and that includes both Grady Sizemore's and Fausto Carmona's salaries. So.. that's no longer the case.. The wording to describe the potential for a transaction/trade sounds weaker than that Paul Hoynes "Nick Punto Interest" comment. In the comments section of the Manship note, the sole commentor states the obvious regarding Grady is "damaged goods". The reponder further mentions some possible players in return: Danny Espinosa, a light/switch hitting middle infielder, John Lannan a big soft tossing lefty that will remind you of Jeremy Sowers' bigger/not more talented brother, Jesus Flores: an interesting catching prospect that has a bum throwing shoulder and the scar to prove it, Tyler Clippard: a soon to be expensive ex-yankee right handed reliever with 'some' skills, and Roger Bernadina, a "nothing special" left handed hitting OF'er. This "haul" is laughable. It is in the ballpark of the kind of "trade proposals" you see on the TV Game Show: "Who can be Hord the Most!".. There is no doubt about the source of these big league scout rumors. It is a fantasm, a ghost, conjured..
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:43 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:I decided that this is worth at least mentioning, since I doubt there is much substance to it. I actually have thought a few times about even starting this, since I saw this on Rotoworld last night....the writer could be telling the truth, I bolded the part that makes me think this is nothing more than a reporter with a friend in the business that passed along something that the write turned into a story, with the obligatory "The Indians are looking to save money" tidbit thrown in. He also fails to mention Sizemore's club option that could be voided/changed to player option if he's traded.

http://www.masnsports.com/phil_wood/201 ... dians.html

On another front, one pretty consistent source tells me that the Nationals are working on "a number" of other trades, though didn't have enough specifics to flesh anything out. Another big league scout tells me he'd heard some "conversations" had taken place between the Nats and the Indians about starting pitcher Fausto Carmona and outfielder Grady Sizemore.

The Tribe is looking to move salary, and Sizemore, coming off of knee surgery, is eligible for free agency in 2012. You may recall that Sizemore was originally an Expos product and was traded - along with Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips - to Cleveland for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew in 2002.

I'd offer Grady & Fausto for the Zimmermans(Zimmermen?). Ryan is signed through '13 & Jordan is under control through '16. We save money. They'd never do it & I doubt we would either but it seems like a fair trade.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:37 am

Prosecutor wrote:My problem is that this guy reminds me of John Rocker, or at least the Cleveland version. Big lefty reliever with an upper 90's fastball who couldn't control it and was a total head case. I read that Hagadone tends to get too emotional when he pitches so it brings up the Rocker comparison in my mind, although I'm sure he's nowhere near the nut job that Rocker was. I'm trying to get past this image.


I see some comparison with the wildness....but as far as makeup and all that is concerned, there is no comparison at all. Hagadone is a great kid, stays out of trouble, and is not a trouble maker. He is tenacious on the mound and shows some emotion at times, but all in the spirit of the game and never to show anyone up.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:38 am

GoTribe028 wrote:I decided that this is worth at least mentioning, since I doubt there is much substance to it. I actually have thought a few times about even starting this, since I saw this on Rotoworld last night....the writer could be telling the truth, I bolded the part that makes me think this is nothing more than a reporter with a friend in the business that passed along something that the write turned into a story, with the obligatory "The Indians are looking to save money" tidbit thrown in. He also fails to mention Sizemore's club option that could be voided/changed to player option if he's traded.

http://www.masnsports.com/phil_wood/201 ... dians.html

On another front, one pretty consistent source tells me that the Nationals are working on "a number" of other trades, though didn't have enough specifics to flesh anything out. Another big league scout tells me he'd heard some "conversations" had taken place between the Nats and the Indians about starting pitcher Fausto Carmona and outfielder Grady Sizemore.

The Tribe is looking to move salary, and Sizemore, coming off of knee surgery, is eligible for free agency in 2012. You may recall that Sizemore was originally an Expos product and was traded - along with Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips - to Cleveland for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew in 2002.


Not true
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby npc29 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:36 pm

I think the perception is that the Tribe is looking to move salary, based off moves they made last year and the year before.

And then the media spins out of control with that... Mixes it in with a report that the Nationals have interest in two of the four players who are under long-term contracts, and we've got people thinking the Indians are trying to dump salary.

The rotoworld story seems to be just that. Picking up on the Nationals interest and using preconceived notions from national media types to draw an unfair conclusion.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:22 pm

npc29 wrote:I think the perception is that the Tribe is looking to move salary, based off moves they made last year and the year before.

And then the media spins out of control with that... Mixes it in with a report that the Nationals have interest in two of the four players who are under long-term contracts, and we've got people thinking the Indians are trying to dump salary.

The rotoworld story seems to be just that. Picking up on the Nationals interest and using preconceived notions from national media types to draw an unfair conclusion.


It's not even a rumor. Teams call and talk/ask about players all the time. But that doesn't mean a trade is imminent. If the Indians call the Nationals about Strasburg, does that mean a trade is going down, even after the Nationals immediately hang up?

Besides, I have first hand knowledge that this rumor is completely false. Indians have not had any discussions whatsoever with the Nationals. Looks to be more of a PR thing to make it appear the Nationals are doing some more things.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:27 am

TonyIPI wrote:
npc29 wrote:I think the perception is that the Tribe is looking to move salary, based off moves they made last year and the year before.

And then the media spins out of control with that... Mixes it in with a report that the Nationals have interest in two of the four players who are under long-term contracts, and we've got people thinking the Indians are trying to dump salary.

The rotoworld story seems to be just that. Picking up on the Nationals interest and using preconceived notions from national media types to draw an unfair conclusion.


It's not even a rumor. Teams call and talk/ask about players all the time. But that doesn't mean a trade is imminent. If the Indians call the Nationals about Strasburg, does that mean a trade is going down, even after the Nationals immediately hang up?

Besides, I have first hand knowledge that this rumor is completely false. Indians have not had any discussions whatsoever with the Nationals. Looks to be more of a PR thing to make it appear the Nationals are doing some more things.
Tony.. I'm sure you're correct as the conversation between Chris Antonneti & the Nats GM may have gone like this:

Nats GM: Hey you interest in trading Grady Sizemore and Fausto Carmona?
Chris Antonneti: Who's calling?
Nats Gm: It's me Mike Rizzo
CA: Oh, how's the snow?
MR: Let's get past the snow..
CA: Snow Days were great. I had a lot of fun on the Batterhorn
MR: Chris! FOCUS!!...
CA: (downs two pills for his ADHD)
CA: ah.. better now.. who do you want to trade for?
MR: Fausto and Grady
CA: We didn't already trade them?
MR: this is going no where...
CA: I'm just joshing with you Mike.. so, you want Fausto and Grady?
MR: (finally).. YES!!.. What do you want for them?
CA: Send over the Zimmermen (both Jordan & Ryan) & then add a PTBNL
MR: (gasps).. WHAT????!!!
CA: We'll send you a list of recent minor league draftees as the PTBNL
MR: Are you being serious?
CA: Sure.. why not?
MR: Click
CA: Hello?.. is anyone there?
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby toledobuck » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:24 am

The Indians are interested in signing 1B Casey Kotchman to a minor league deal?? Color me confused with signing this LH 1B to compete with Laporta. We need to sign minor league FA 3B types that have RH bats...............

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post ... mlb-313641
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:09 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
npc29 wrote:I think the perception is that the Tribe is looking to move salary, based off moves they made last year and the year before.

And then the media spins out of control with that... Mixes it in with a report that the Nationals have interest in two of the four players who are under long-term contracts, and we've got people thinking the Indians are trying to dump salary.

The rotoworld story seems to be just that. Picking up on the Nationals interest and using preconceived notions from national media types to draw an unfair conclusion.


It's not even a rumor. Teams call and talk/ask about players all the time. But that doesn't mean a trade is imminent. If the Indians call the Nationals about Strasburg, does that mean a trade is going down, even after the Nationals immediately hang up?

Besides, I have first hand knowledge that this rumor is completely false. Indians have not had any discussions whatsoever with the Nationals. Looks to be more of a PR thing to make it appear the Nationals are doing some more things.
Tony.. I'm sure you're correct as the conversation between Chris Antonneti & the Nats GM may have gone like this:

Nats GM: Hey you interest in trading Grady Sizemore and Fausto Carmona?
Chris Antonneti: Who's calling?
Nats Gm: It's me Mike Rizzo
CA: Oh, how's the snow?
MR: Let's get past the snow..
CA: Snow Days were great. I had a lot of fun on the Batterhorn
MR: Chris! FOCUS!!...
CA: (downs two pills for his ADHD)
CA: ah.. better now.. who do you want to trade for?
MR: Fausto and Grady
CA: We didn't already trade them?
MR: this is going no where...
CA: I'm just joshing with you Mike.. so, you want Fausto and Grady?
MR: (finally).. YES!!.. What do you want for them?
CA: Send over the Zimmermen (both Jordan & Ryan) & then add a PTBNL
MR: (gasps).. WHAT????!!!
CA: We'll send you a list of recent minor league draftees as the PTBNL
MR: Are you being serious?
CA: Sure.. why not?
MR: Click
CA: Hello?.. is anyone there?

I've read that trade proposal somewhere before...
Rocky55 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:I decided that this is worth at least mentioning, since I doubt there is much substance to it. I actually have thought a few times about even starting this, since I saw this on Rotoworld last night....the writer could be telling the truth, I bolded the part that makes me think this is nothing more than a reporter with a friend in the business that passed along something that the write turned into a story, with the obligatory "The Indians are looking to save money" tidbit thrown in. He also fails to mention Sizemore's club option that could be voided/changed to player option if he's traded.

http://www.masnsports.com/phil_wood/201 ... dians.html

On another front, one pretty consistent source tells me that the Nationals are working on "a number" of other trades, though didn't have enough specifics to flesh anything out. Another big league scout tells me he'd heard some "conversations" had taken place between the Nats and the Indians about starting pitcher Fausto Carmona and outfielder Grady Sizemore.

The Tribe is looking to move salary, and Sizemore, coming off of knee surgery, is eligible for free agency in 2012. You may recall that Sizemore was originally an Expos product and was traded - along with Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips - to Cleveland for Bartolo Colon and Tim Drew in 2002.

I'd offer Grady & Fausto for the Zimmermans(Zimmermen?). Ryan is signed through '13 & Jordan is under control through '16. We save money. They'd never do it & I doubt we would either but it seems like a fair trade.

Now I remember. :biggrin:
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:45 pm

toledobuck wrote:The Indians are interested in signing 1B Casey Kotchman to a minor league deal?? Color me confused with signing this LH 1B to compete with Laporta. We need to sign minor league FA 3B types that have RH bats...............

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/post ... mlb-313641


Thankfully he signed elsewhere. I'm all for improving the defense...but signing a better defensive version of Garko is not the best idea.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GhostofTedCox » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Jeremy Sowers had rotator cuff surgery on Monday. Not on 40 man, but it looks like a long road back for the former 1st round pick.
I guess that's why the Indians keep building pitching depth.
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Re: Offseason Happenings

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:42 am

GhostofTedCox wrote:Jeremy Sowers had rotator cuff surgery on Monday. Not on 40 man, but it looks like a long road back for the former 1st round pick. I guess that's why the Indians keep building pitching depth.
It's assumed that the words "pitching" and "Sowers" in the same posting is a mere coincidence....at the very least.. :clapping:
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