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Dayan Viciedo...

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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:03 am

Alexei Ramirez would've fit nicely this year with the Tribe. But let's not forget that he has absolutely horrible plate discipline and could see a regression like Cano had (and I like Cano alot more).
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:16 am

Even with the regression, he'd be better than what he have now. Plus his versatility on the IF and defense is a HUGE plus.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:21 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Even with the regression, he'd be better than what he have now. Plus his versatility on the IF and defense is a HUGE plus.



His great defense the guy was horrid. He might have been the worst 2B in baseball last year. yes he made web gems but he was a horrid 2B web gems do not make a great 2B and I bet he has a huge regression because he swung at everything when people break down games htis off season it will stand out that should never throw him a strike. I expect a Pat litsch type of drop off
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:42 am

um, Ramirez was rated one of the best defensive 2B in the league last year......played so well he's being moved to SS.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:24 am

Hermie13 wrote:um, Ramirez was rated one of the best defensive 2B in the league last year......played so well he's being moved to SS.


Both BP and Hardball times stats suggest he was in fact a pretty lousy fielder. I don't know what his +/- was last year, but it seems he's like Josh Barfield -- weekly web gems, but overall not that good.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:34 pm

I never said he was a gold glover. But he plays a very good 2B defensively, better than Barfield. Still one of the best defensive 2Bs in the AL. Pedroia, Polanco, and Ellis are better, but that's about it.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby TheWord » Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:57 pm

5th worst fielding percentage

6th worst range factor

Middle of the pack zone rating


He's young and will get better, but you're developing a habit of saying people are good defensively, when they really aren't.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:03 pm

Really? Like who?


And Ramirez was primarily a SS and OFer in Cuba.....2B was a new position for him and wasn't even suppose to be playing it. Came in on the fly and got better and better as the year went on and by the end was one of the best defensive 2B's in the league. Looking at FP and RF (which is a terrible stat) don't tell the whole story because of this.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby TheWord » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:15 pm

Edwin Encarnacion comes to mind.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:03 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Really? Like who?


And Ramirez was primarily a SS and OFer in Cuba.....2B was a new position for him and wasn't even suppose to be playing it. Came in on the fly and got better and better as the year went on and by the end was one of the best defensive 2B's in the league. Looking at FP and RF (which is a terrible stat) don't tell the whole story because of this.



How about every scouting report said he was horrid. You are thinking just because he made flashy plays hes good, no one has thought he was passable he was a below average defender in every review from every scouting source. I know it was a running gag on the law chats how every white soxes fan tried to defend Rameriz terrible defense
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:06 pm

TheWord wrote:Edwin Encarnacion comes to mind.


Find where I said Encarnacion was a good defender. I did say he'd be fine at 3B and his bat would make up for his bad defense. There's a difference between saying that and calling a guy a good defenseive player.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:16 pm

jellis wrote:How about every scouting report said he was horrid. You are thinking just because he made flashy plays hes good, no one has thought he was passable he was a below average defender in every review from every scouting source. I know it was a running gag on the law chats how every white soxes fan tried to defend Rameriz terrible defense


Those scouting reports were from him playing in Cuba. Most pepole since then has changed their opinion of his defensive skills. Most didn't think he'd be able to handle the infield at the ML level, but he proved them wrong and showed above average defensive later on in the year. And no, I don't think just because of some 'flashy' plays that he's good. It's because he is. I don't think he's gonna win a gold glove (maybe I dind't make that totally clear), but he's solid at 2B.....not sure how he'll handle SS though it's where he played more in Cuba so one would assume he'd handle it fine next year.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:15 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:How about every scouting report said he was horrid. You are thinking just because he made flashy plays hes good, no one has thought he was passable he was a below average defender in every review from every scouting source. I know it was a running gag on the law chats how every white soxes fan tried to defend Rameriz terrible defense


Those scouting reports were from him playing in Cuba. Most pepole since then has changed their opinion of his defensive skills. Most didn't think he'd be able to handle the infield at the ML level, but he proved them wrong and showed above average defensive later on in the year. And no, I don't think just because of some 'flashy' plays that he's good. It's because he is. I don't think he's gonna win a gold glove (maybe I dind't make that totally clear), but he's solid at 2B.....not sure how he'll handle SS though it's where he played more in Cuba so one would assume he'd handle it fine next year.



no those scouting reports where based on his play this year and if its so hard to go from SS to 2B why do we see it happen all the time. It is much harder the other way. Only white soxes fans and you think hes anything but a below average defender
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:33 pm

All of the stats on BP and Hardball Times put Ramirez near the bottom of 2nd baseman. I know defensive stats have flaws in them, but this isn't just a coincidence. He's just not as good as some people make him out to be.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:35 am

There just aren't many good defensive 2B's in the league. Ramirez (still learning the position) is better than most of them already. Would have be an improvement for us on the infield (the WHOLE point of this dicsussion).
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:44 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:um, Ramirez was rated one of the best defensive 2B in the league last year......played so well he's being moved to SS.


Both BP and Hardball times stats suggest he was in fact a pretty lousy fielder. I don't know what his +/- was last year, but it seems he's like Josh Barfield -- weekly web gems, but overall not that good.

His +/- is -8 to rank 27th for all ML 2B. He was -13 for GB and +5 for popups.

He ranked 20th for turning the DP.

He was -3 at SS.

He's bad.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:10 pm

I'd like to see a split on how he was during the second half of the year though. He was down right terrible to start the year but played much better D by the end of the year.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:48 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I'd like to see a split on how he was during the second half of the year though. He was down right terrible to start the year but played much better D by the end of the year.



I thought you cant discount half the year
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:31 pm

You can't, but still interesting to see how he improved during the year....especially at a position he wasn't even suppose to be playing this year....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:36 pm

Hermie13 wrote:You can't, but still interesting to see how he improved during the year....especially at a position he wasn't even suppose to be playing this year....



SS to 2B is not a hard transition especially not enough t o make you that bad of a defender
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:11 am

He was playing CF to start the year. He played both SS and CF in Cuba. Going from the OF to the IF isn't an easy transition mid-season. Blake struggled at 3B when he moved back from the OF in 2007 as well.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:50 pm

Hermie13 wrote:He was playing CF to start the year. He played both SS and CF in Cuba. Going from the OF to the IF isn't an easy transition mid-season. Blake struggled at 3B when he moved back from the OF in 2007 as well.
Blake was bad at 3B before he went to the OF and was the same bad when he returned. Playing the OF had zero affect on him.

He ranked 25th and 24th the last 2 years at 3B. He ranked 23rd in 2005.
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