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Dayan Viciedo...

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Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:04 pm

Wasn't sure which board to put this under.....but decided on this one.

Dayan Viciedo has defected from Cuba and is now a free agent. He's still only 19, but plays 3B and some say he's better than Alexei Ramirez who had a great rookie campaign for the ChiSox this year. Some people think he'd be able to compete for a ML job in 2009 even.

Do you think the Indians should/will take a shot at him? (They're said to be looking into him at least). I was very disappointed we didn't try harder for Ramirez. Only cost the ChiSox a lil over a million bucks a year. Even if this kid gets double that....still not any worse than a 1st round draft pick (which he would have been had he been in the draft).

We're thin at 3B as it is in the minors. I think it's a risk worth taking.....but we'll defiantely not be the only ones in on him.....

Still, the scouting reports say he could hit 30-40 HRs at the ML level and can also play some SS and OF (though he is still growing so probably won't play any SS at the ML level).

Here's the report I found on him (there's a lot going around):

Dayan Viciedo, 19, is the best Cuban position player since Omar Linares, who led the Cuban national team. His agent, Jaime Torres, says there is a lot of interest in Viciedo and that they would like to get him signed sooner rather than later. With that said, the Chicago White Sox are the perceived front-runners.
Not only is Viciedo friends with Alexei Ramirez, but they share the same agent. If signed by the White Sox, Viciedo would probably start in the majors right away, making Chicago an even more desirable place for him. The White Sox are probably up for that, considering Ramirez is up for Rookie of the Year after hitting .290 with 21 home runs.
Scouts believe Viciedo could hit 30-40 home runs, so the asking price could be rather high. I suspect a five-year deal worth between $1-3 million would get it done.
The Boston Red Sox, Oakland Athletics, Cleveland Indians, Seattle Mariners, and Los Angeles Dodgers, among others, have all reportedly expressed interest.


If he'd start for the White Sox.....seems like he'd start for us too. We've got as big a hole on the infield as they do (well they have two and we have one so not 'as' bad off).

5 years and $15M for him doesn't sound so bad when you consider the alternatives on the market. Hudson will cost more than that in 2 years. Uggla will be more than that in his 3 years. Encarnacion will be slightly less than that in his 3 years (most likely). Atkins will be more than that in his 2 years. Beltre cost nearly that in 1 year.

Plus saves all our prospects to try and get better pitcher and more bullpen help......
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby GhostofTedCox » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:24 pm

I've heard of this kid before. There is a mystique about Cuban players because nobody sees them very much. I don't think any 19 year old (even a 19 year old Mike Schmidt) could compete for a starting job on a ML contender.
That being said, I hope the Indians do pursue him. It's getting very expensive to get talent out of Japan, the big market teams may be more concerned with signing ML FA right now.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:35 pm

There's some 19-20 year olds that can come up and play very well at the ML level. Jhonny Peralta's rookie year (or half year) was at the age of 20. CC (a pitcher but still) was 20 to start the year.....and we made the playoffs that year. Dayan Viciedo will also be 20 on opening day next year....

He profiles a lot like Miguel Cabrera.....who also happened to be 20 (was 19 on opening day in fact, though he was in the minors still) when he was a rookie and playing in the 2003 World Series for the Marlins....

Obviously though it all depends on his talent and how he performs in ST no matter where he ends up....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby npc29 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:42 pm

19 years old coming over from Cuba?

I don't know about going straight to the Majors. You would have to see him in action before you could even make a educated guess on that one.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:42 pm

you certainly take a look at him, and if you like him you sign him. But no way should he be the starting 3B for the Indians next year. If they sign him, they should start him in Akron.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:50 pm

I'm just going by what I've been reading. Sounds like the White Sox like him enough to give him a shot at starting at 3B over Fields next year....

Not sayin 'just because the White Sox are doing it we should to'......but shoulds like this kid is the real deal.....though time will tell....


A team has reportedly said they'll move their incumbent 3B off the position to make room for him......could be total bs though I suppose....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:37 pm

Hermie13 wrote:There's some 19-20 year olds that can come up and play very well at the ML level. Jhonny Peralta's rookie year (or half year) was at the age of 20.

It was age 21 and he was clearly overmatched. 67 OPS+

2011 is the earliest that Viciedo will be seeing the ML.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 3:54 pm

my bad...21 years and less than one month old on Peralta.


Unless he gets hurt, he'll almost certainly be seeing time in the ML before 2011. His deal will likely include a clause that says he has to be called up in September at the latest much like Andrew Miller's deal with the Tigers (was 21). He's gonna be added to the team's 40-man roster as all the deals being talked about are ML deals....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Uncle Rick » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:03 pm

If the weight report is accurate (230+) he is a risky sign. If this isn't his only similarity to Cabrera and the agent can get him on the treadmill, the risk drops. Still, with the kid demanding to be rostered w/o really proving anything.....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 4:08 pm

He'd have been a first round pick had he been in the draft.....not unheard of for 1st rounders to get rostered (Guthrie was for the Tribe I believe, as was Andrew Miller for the Tigers as mentioned and David Price with the Rays). Don't think it's so much this kid 'demanding' it but the agent thinking he can get it. Plus it'd be that extra bonus to get him to sign with your team as opposed to another team.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:41 pm

my only question is where did you get the report he would start this seems on the level of the mark tehan rumor no one starts at the majors at 21 right out of school, even a high draft pick normally doesnt show up till AUG at the earliest
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby npc29 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 7:48 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I'm just going by what I've been reading. Sounds like the White Sox like him enough to give him a shot at starting at 3B over Fields next year....

Not sayin 'just because the White Sox are doing it we should to'......but shoulds like this kid is the real deal.....though time will tell....


A team has reportedly said they'll move their incumbent 3B off the position to make room for him......could be total bs though I suppose....


Well then they are borderline stupid to do that without anything but scouting reports and scouts watching him in something other than professional baseball here in America.

I think Fields, with the confidence of his club behind him as the starting third baseman, is primed to have a good first full year. He hit like 27 home runs in the second half of 2007?

That would be rather crazy to outright give this Cuban the job over Fields.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:01 pm

the other big thing is how can you count on a guy to play is is out of weight right now he makes miggy look slim
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:11 am

jellis wrote:my only question is where did you get the report he would start this seems on the level of the mark tehan rumor no one starts at the majors at 21 right out of school, even a high draft pick normally doesnt show up till AUG at the earliest


mlb.com and I believe yahoo was the other place.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:13 am

npc29 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I'm just going by what I've been reading. Sounds like the White Sox like him enough to give him a shot at starting at 3B over Fields next year....

Not sayin 'just because the White Sox are doing it we should to'......but shoulds like this kid is the real deal.....though time will tell....


A team has reportedly said they'll move their incumbent 3B off the position to make room for him......could be total bs though I suppose....


Well then they are borderline stupid to do that without anything but scouting reports and scouts watching him in something other than professional baseball here in America.

I think Fields, with the confidence of his club behind him as the starting third baseman, is primed to have a good first full year. He hit like 27 home runs in the second half of 2007?

That would be rather crazy to outright give this Cuban the job over Fields.



Is watching a guy play pro ball in latin america really any different than watching a guy in spring training? Half the guys you face in spring training aren't major leaguers.

Not saying he will start at the ML level, but saying there's no shot is dumb as well...
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:54 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:my only question is where did you get the report he would start this seems on the level of the mark tehan rumor no one starts at the majors at 21 right out of school, even a high draft pick normally doesnt show up till AUG at the earliest


mlb.com and I believe yahoo was the other place.



read the story on yahoo and never mentioned the starting in the majors part
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:51 am

This is from the yahoo article:

Already, Torres said, teams have offered Viciedo a major-league contract, which includes a spot on the 40-man roster. Torres said he expects his client to compete for a starting job in spring training, whether at his natural position or in the outfield.

Believe it was the other article that said the thing about a team being willing to move their incumbent 3B.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:54 am

Hermie13 wrote:This is from the yahoo article:

Already, Torres said, teams have offered Viciedo a major-league contract, which includes a spot on the 40-man roster. Torres said he expects his client to compete for a starting job in spring training, whether at his natural position or in the outfield.

Believe it was the other article that said the thing about a team being willing to move their incumbent 3B.


That doesn't mean he will play in the major leagues. All it means is he will sign a major league contract...sorta like Guthrie did when he was drafted and signed by the Indians.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:13 am

I know, said he'd compete for a job. Never a gurantee he'd make the club, but the fact that he'd be given a ML deal makes it seem like teams think he could be ML ready this year.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:10 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I know, said he'd compete for a job. Never a gurantee he'd make the club, but the fact that he'd be given a ML deal makes it seem like teams think he could be ML ready this year.

ML contract does not mean the player is ML ready now. Some draft choices are given ML contracts and don't sniff the ML for years.

You are putting too much faith in agent speak.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:42 pm

Well if a player is given a ML contract they have to be in the ML in 3 years or else they're gone via waivers.....

And most get there pretty quick (Andrew Miller and David Price for starters).


I don't believe much about what agents say, but when they say a guy is getting ML contract offers I believe him. Now the money and length I'm a bit skeptical about. And I think it's fair to say he'll be competing for a ML job in the spring. How competitive he'll be remains to be seen though.....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Uncle Rick » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:07 pm

Is not everyone on the forty competing for a major league job in spring training? And even though some are not realistically competing is not the 'company line' still that they are?
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Uncle Rick wrote:Is not everyone on the forty competing for a major league job in spring training? And even though some are not realistically competing is not the 'company line' still that they are?



true but players can have great spring trainings and not sniff the roster so its only a company line. How many Indians have we seen have great St then go to AAA, realatisically only a 30 guys have a chance of making the team and that might be a high amount.

I just dont see how you can pay a guy like Dayan, when hes already out of shape. What will he do when he gets his money and his big house and such, its a bad sign when he got fat before his contract
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Well if a player is given a ML contract they have to be in the ML in 3 years or else they're gone via waivers.....

Actually it's 4 years. They have 3 option years.

If he was signed today he wouldn't have to be on a ML roster until 2012.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:31 am

True, but if given a ML contract he'd be a September callup at the worst. If you're already on the 40-man, might as well call him up. Already wasting an option year, might as well get his feet wet some....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:45 am

FYI, players with less than five full professional seasons get a 4th option year. Guthrie is a player who was in this category.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:02 am

Good catch. Forgot about that exception.

Still, not many guys are given a ML contract and not called up sometime in their first 2 years.


Going to be interesting just what this kid does get offered. I remember the rumors about Alexi Ramirez all had him getting more than a 4yr/$4.75M deal.....so we'll see....
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:49 am

Hermie13 wrote:True, but if given a ML contract he'd be a September callup at the worst. If you're already on the 40-man, might as well call him up. Already wasting an option year, might as well get his feet wet some....

Tell that to the Indians who rarely do that.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:41 pm

Depends on the player. Guys like Brad Snyder and Wyatt Toregas didn't get called up because of the position they were playing, and the fact that neither is very good.

Plus we'd have to pay them more if they get bumped up. A guy like Viciedo would get the same no matter where he's at (depending on his contract obviously).
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:48 pm

Jeff Stevens should have been called up and given Rincon's and/or Donnelly's innings. But they didn't do that.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:00 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:Jeff Stevens should have been called up and given Rincon's and/or Donnelly's innings. But they didn't do that.



I think they just wanted to let him rest after the Olympics and saw no point in starting his service clock
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:10 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:Jeff Stevens should have been called up and given Rincon's and/or Donnelly's innings. But they didn't do that.


Jeff Stevens wasn't on the 40-man roster.

I liked giving the innings to Rincon and Donnelly. We needed to see if they'd have any value going into next year. Obviously they didn't step up, but can't fault the Tribe for giving them shots.

Tribe brought Meloan up since he was on the 40-man.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Uncle Rick » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:11 pm

Weren't the Indians contractually obligated to promote Donnelly when he met certain criteria last year?
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:14 pm

Uncle Rick wrote:Weren't the Indians contractually obligated to promote Donnelly when he met certain criteria last year?

They were NOT obligated to call him up but they were obligated to release him (if he wished) after a certain date if he was not in the majors.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:38 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:Jeff Stevens should have been called up and given Rincon's and/or Donnelly's innings. But they didn't do that.


Jeff Stevens wasn't on the 40-man roster.

I liked giving the innings to Rincon and Donnelly. We needed to see if they'd have any value going into next year. Obviously they didn't step up, but can't fault the Tribe for giving them shots.

Tribe brought Meloan up since he was on the 40-man.

Since they need to add Stevens to the 40 man roster now, it wouldn't have hurt to add him in Sep.

Rincon hadn't shown anything by Sep 1st (50 days on the roster 5.50 ERA) so why not get a prospect's feet wet instead of next year when the games are more important?

Their love affair with washed up vets is sickening.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:30 am

They may have thought they were gonna trade him, or at least some other trade that would clog up the 40-man roster. Not a bad idea to keep from adding more people to the 40-man when it's not necessary.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:20 pm

That still doesn't matter because he has to be on the 40 man roster by tomorrow. If they made a trade they still would have had to make room on the 40 man for Stevens.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:23 pm

Actually he doesn't have to be......could be left off....though that would be pretty dumb.

My point was they may have traded Stevens and didn't want to pay him the extra money he'd have gotten being on the ML roster.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:40 pm

Quote:didn't want to pay him the extra money he'd have gotten being on the ML roster.

If saving money is more important than winning then get me a new FO.

Do you want players making ML debuts when the games are important or when they are meaningless?

Getting ML time in Sep would help a lot for players for next year.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:11 pm

Just about every FO is like that. All bullpens have vets in them. You can't have one full of young guys....well you can, but it'd be terrible.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:26 pm

Sources told the Chicago Tribune that the White Sox and Cuban defector Dayan Viciedo have agreed to terms.

Phil Rogers reports that Viciedo will get a major league deal worth about $11 million. The 19-year-old doesn't figure to be any sort of an immediately solution to the White Sox's problems at third base, but he could start off in the high minors if he impresses during spring training.



http://www.rotoworld.com/content/player ... LB&id=5588
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:32 pm

that's an insane amount of money for a teenager.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:01 pm

awesome signing go ahead and sign a over weight player with limited scouting reports this is almost as good as when kenny williams over drafted his son by about 70 rounds this year
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby JP_Frost » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:10 pm

jellis wrote:awesome signing go ahead and sign a over weight player with limited scouting reports this is almost as good as when kenny williams over drafted his son by about 70 rounds this year


Well, I'm sure they've scouted him, but it's definately a high risk/high reward signing. Can't fault them for trying though.

What's interesting is how little drafted players get signed for in comparison to these international guys. Not that top picks should complain, but it's a pretty big difference.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:17 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
jellis wrote:awesome signing go ahead and sign a over weight player with limited scouting reports this is almost as good as when kenny williams over drafted his son by about 70 rounds this year


Well, I'm sure they've scouted him, but it's definately a high risk/high reward signing. Can't fault them for trying though.

What's interesting is how little drafted players get signed for in comparison to these international guys. Not that top picks should complain, but it's a pretty big difference.



this will just add more fuel to the whole international player draft that gets mentioned from time to time
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby npc29 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:46 pm

Yeah good luck with that Chicago
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:13 pm

BJ (Chicago): while you do seem pompous and arrogant, it's hard to down play your knowledge, so I ask you, do you have a scouting report on the young Cuban Dayan Viciedo, any major league comparisons?

SportsNation Keith Law: Nobody pays attention to you if you're meek and uncertain and qualify every statement. I haven't seen Viciedo, and called/emailed a number of scouts last week, none of whom had seen him either. I am forced to conclude that he doesn't exist.
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby npc29 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:16 pm

So Chicago signed a non-existent player for 11 million?

Sound move Kenny..
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:17 pm

kenny lost all credibility when he drafted his son in round 6 when his son probably wouldnt have been drafted
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Re: Dayan Viciedo...

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:36 am

Great move by the White Sox. Not a shocker at all.....but very disapppointing that another Cuban lands with them (I wanted Alexi bad last winter).....
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