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2011 Amateur Draft

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:04 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:On the other side of the country, Trevor Bauer of UCLA is killing it. He could be the first pitcher off the board in June. He's better than Cole.


Even if bauer was the best pitcher in the country....not sure he can be the 1st pitcher taken. Never say never I guess, but that workout routine, insane pitch counts, and the letter sent out (even if it was sent without permission) probably worry teams enough that he slides...and could fall completely out of the 1st round.


I think pitching injuries are very difficult to predict. Bauer is kind of funky, but his breaking stuff is very advanced. If I were a scouting director/GM, when I scout Cole I'd go into it thinking, "prove to me you're not a relief pitcher" b/c that is what he looks like to me. He's got tremendous arm speed and velocity, which will make him a lot of money, but I dont think he's a slam dunk SP prospect. Could be an awesome reliever.

Bauer pitches to all four quadrants of the strike zone and can change the batter's eye level successfully. He's got great stuff that gets very good two-plane action. There's a long list of guys that were supposed to go under the knife eventually that did not, and guys that werent supposed to have arm injuries that did. Bauer is less traditional, but the guy is a damn good pitcher.

I don't think Bauer's pitch counts are all that "insane". He only throws once every seven days. In the long-run, Mathematically, throwing 120 pitches once a week isn't much different than 90 every five days, which is what minor league prospects do. I think its difficult to say which is more detrimental to pitcher's arms. I've yet to read a statistical research piece that definitely states which is more preferable. You mention his workout routine; I don't know what it includes. Perhaps you could inform us on how it makes him more risky?

Rocky, unfortunately, I no longer live in MAC territory and don't see those games any longer. I unfortunately now live in a part of the country that sucks for college baseball!!
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:19 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:On the other side of the country, Trevor Bauer of UCLA is killing it. He could be the first pitcher off the board in June. He's better than Cole.


Even if bauer was the best pitcher in the country....not sure he can be the 1st pitcher taken. Never say never I guess, but that workout routine, insane pitch counts, and the letter sent out (even if it was sent without permission) probably worry teams enough that he slides...and could fall completely out of the 1st round.


I think pitching injuries are very difficult to predict. Bauer is kind of funky, but his breaking stuff is very advanced. If I were a scouting director/GM, when I scout Cole I'd go into it thinking, "prove to me you're not a relief pitcher" b/c that is what he looks like to me. He's got tremendous arm speed and velocity, which will make him a lot of money, but I dont think he's a slam dunk SP prospect. Could be an awesome reliever.

Bauer pitches to all four quadrants of the strike zone and can change the batter's eye level successfully. He's got great stuff that gets very good two-plane action. There's a long list of guys that were supposed to go under the knife eventually that did not, and guys that werent supposed to have arm injuries that did. Bauer is less traditional, but the guy is a damn good pitcher.

I don't think Bauer's pitch counts are all that "insane". He only throws once every seven days. In the long-run, Mathematically, throwing 120 pitches once a week isn't much different than 90 every five days, which is what minor league prospects do. I think its difficult to say which is more detrimental to pitcher's arms. I've yet to read a statistical research piece that definitely states which is more preferable. You mention his workout routine; I don't know what it includes. Perhaps you could inform us on how it makes him more risky?

Rocky, unfortunately, I no longer live in MAC territory and don't see those games any longer. I unfortunately now live in a part of the country that sucks for college baseball!!



I could make a case that throwing over 120 pitches only once a week is actually worse for your arm than throwing 100 twice a week though. Not that I don't believe Bauer isn't working out during the week and throwing side sessions (based of his crazy routine, far from it), but reving up to 120 pitches only once a week then throwing side sessions could be worse for your arm.

Then again, he could have an arm that never tires and he'll have no issues.

Still has concerns with that routine and some other things that could gives teams reason to worry. We've seen plenty of times in baseball...the most talented prospects don't always go first. That's more what I'm saying here (though I do disagree that he's better than Cole).
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:22 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I agree that he won't be the first pitcher taken, but it would be insane if he falls out of the 1st round. In fact, he should be a top 15 or top 10 pick if he keeps this up.

Btw, someone asked about righthanded hitters being available. Obviously Rendon is there, but there's no way he slides that far, so that leaves George Springer. Very toolsy, but also K's alot (especially this year). Has the potential to be a top 3 pick, however his performance hasn't been there so far this season.


I don't know about insane if he fell out. Agree if the draft happened today he's a 1st rounder but you just never know. Still seen him in the 20s some places due to the side stuff with him (ie, the workout routine that he seems married to).

Agree on Springer. Was a top 5 guy early but looks a bit lost. Making Adam Dunn look like a contact hitter so far. Lots of time to rebound though.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:08 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I could make a case that throwing over 120 pitches only once a week is actually worse for your arm than throwing 100 twice a week though. Not that I don't believe Bauer isn't working out during the week and throwing side sessions (based of his crazy routine, far from it), but reving up to 120 pitches only once a week then throwing side sessions could be worse for your arm.

Then again, he could have an arm that never tires and he'll have no issues.

Still has concerns with that routine and some other things that could gives teams reason to worry. We've seen plenty of times in baseball...the most talented prospects don't always go first. That's more what I'm saying here (though I do disagree that he's better than Cole).


#1 - Please make your case about 120 pitches being exponentially worse than 100. I'd like to see some evidence.

#2 - I asked what concerned you about his workouts. I'm asking again.

#3 - I've seen tons of drafts where BA ranks college players one way, but a year later does a reversal when really nothing has changed about the players. The draft people rate players one way, and minor league guys rate players another. I think that once Gerrit Cole gets above A-ball, people are going to question whether or not he's a starting pitching prospect. Draft people like velocity, strength, projectability. Minor league prospect evaluators like those things, too, but they also analyze K rates, K/BB ratios, H/IP, etc.

Gerrit Cole has a lightning quick arm and excellent velocity. He's also got a strong body. Cole's fastball is legit. His slider, however, is not a plus pitch. In the minors, I think Cole will have very low H/IP ratios b/c his fastball is so good, but I don't see high strike out numbers, particularly above A-ball. The draft guys will like Cole, but I'm not so sure the minor league analysts will be as enthusiastic.

Trevor Bauer is a lot different pitcher. His breaking pitches are significantly better than Cole's. His delivery is a little funky, but so is Tim Lincecum's and its never hurt him. I think Bauer can get batters out in a lot more ways than Gerrit Cole can, which bodes very well for his future. I do think he's an injury risk, but its not like there is a single pitcher in the draft that is not.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby homerawayfromhome » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:39 pm

Personally I like Bauer and Cole, dont think Cole will be there at the 8 spot and Bauer may not be worth the 8 spot. Both guys are different styles of pitchers and both can be successful. Great point though no matter who a team pks there's a good chance they will be get injured at some point.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:46 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:I could make a case that throwing over 120 pitches only once a week is actually worse for your arm than throwing 100 twice a week though. Not that I don't believe Bauer isn't working out during the week and throwing side sessions (based of his crazy routine, far from it), but reving up to 120 pitches only once a week then throwing side sessions could be worse for your arm.

Then again, he could have an arm that never tires and he'll have no issues.

Still has concerns with that routine and some other things that could gives teams reason to worry. We've seen plenty of times in baseball...the most talented prospects don't always go first. That's more what I'm saying here (though I do disagree that he's better than Cole).


#1 - Please make your case about 120 pitches being exponentially worse than 100. I'd like to see some evidence.

#2 - I asked what concerned you about his workouts. I'm asking again.

#3 - I've seen tons of drafts where BA ranks college players one way, but a year later does a reversal when really nothing has changed about the players. The draft people rate players one way, and minor league guys rate players another. I think that once Gerrit Cole gets above A-ball, people are going to question whether or not he's a starting pitching prospect. Draft people like velocity, strength, projectability. Minor league prospect evaluators like those things, too, but they also analyze K rates, K/BB ratios, H/IP, etc.

Gerrit Cole has a lightning quick arm and excellent velocity. He's also got a strong body. Cole's fastball is legit. His slider, however, is not a plus pitch. In the minors, I think Cole will have very low H/IP ratios b/c his fastball is so good, but I don't see high strike out numbers, particularly above A-ball. The draft guys will like Cole, but I'm not so sure the minor league analysts will be as enthusiastic.

Trevor Bauer is a lot different pitcher. His breaking pitches are significantly better than Cole's. His delivery is a little funky, but so is Tim Lincecum's and its never hurt him. I think Bauer can get batters out in a lot more ways than Gerrit Cole can, which bodes very well for his future. I do think he's an injury risk, but its not like there is a single pitcher in the draft that is not.


#1....I did. Reving up only once a week can be worse for your arm than working the muscles more regularly. Again though, said this may not be the case with Bauer since he does have a very stringent workout routine.

#2...you're joking right? Have you read what he does for his workouts? Honestly...there's too much to list of what not to like. Law had a good article up about it. Some have told him though that it's a bit overblown in the media, but still has left a few concerned. especially if he won't alter it once in the Pros.

#3....not really sure what you're saying here. The minor league guys? Are you saying that once drafted Bauer will be rated a better prospect? That has nothing to do with the draft though. :dunno:


Again, not knocking Bauer's ability....but if the draft happened today, Cole likely is the #1 overall pick. Fastball/changeup combo are just to enticing to teams (plus Rendon's injury). Again though, anything can happen between now and June :drinks:
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby stayhumble » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:55 am

I have seen Chafin of Kent State pitch several times. The main thing that sets him apart is his ability to get RHH out in a variety of ways. He can saw the bat off inside or use a hard runner away. With a developing changeup, he can be filthy. Also keep an eye on RF Ben Klafczynski as a potential value pick. Currently one of the top ranked wOBA hitters so far in 2011 with a line of .430/.505/.709 with 6 HR's.

The LHH went 2-3 and no K's against Bradley(LHP) at Georgia Tech and launched 400' plus against Meo at Coastal off a 94mph fastball. Another pretty solid contact bat is Drew Turocy at Akron.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:16 pm

Watching the Florida/Tennessee game. Austin Maddox doesn't know the bats have been changed. Bomb. Saw him pitch last week. Touched 96, sat 92. Hard breaking slider. Not sure he knows where it's going but it's a plus pitch. Too bad he's a Soph, like most of the Gators good players, other than Daniel Piggott.

Interesting guy on Tennessee: Khayyan Norfork, 2B. About 5'10"/180lbs. Quick little guy, reminds me of Jemile Weeks. He's hitting .458/.570/.677, 21BB/11K, 20-23 SB's. He's a Senior. Played 2yrs JC, hit .261 last yr. for the Vols. Coach said he re-worked his long swing over the winter. Good bat speed. Hasn't played a lot of baseball. Good upside. Sleeper. Will be fun to see what he does as a pro. Reminds me of what Brad Grant said in Tony's interview, that they see guys multiple times during the season to see who develops.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:42 am

As an FYI, don't know if it means anything, but when I talked to Grant the other day for the interview he was scouting the Cleveland St vs. Bowling Green State game.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Edible14 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:07 am

TonyIPI wrote:As an FYI, don't know if it means anything, but when I talked to Grant the other day for the interview he was scouting the Cleveland St vs. Bowling Green State game.


Oooh... exciting news for me, being in BG and all. I'm guessing Berti was one of the guys being scouted?
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:41 pm

Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.

Lot of talk about Gerrit Cole. I first saw him in the CWS last summer and I knew he'd be one of the top SP prospects b/c his arm strength is very impressive. I'm not as enthusiastic about Cole, mainly b/c I think as a starting pitcher I think his only real out-pitch is his fastball at the major league level, unless his slider improves (not so optimistic it will). I just see him getting into 2-2 counts and trying to throw his fastball by guys but major league hitters putting it into play, fouling it off, etc. I think he'll make for one of the top 5 closers in baseball (consistently), though. Thats not what I'd want with the #1 overall pick.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:39 pm

Regarding Cole; apparently his change-up has really developed this year. Keith Law compared it to Johan Santana's, extremely high praise. I saw Cole a few times last summer and did not see such a good change-up. I don't see Cole's arm action being ideal for a plus slider, but if his change-up is above major league average, I can see Cole making it as a starter in the majors. It wasn't there last summer, but if that change is there now he's top of the class.

I saw Virginia's Danny Hultzen is getting a lot of buzz. This guy is easily my least favorite 1st round potential college arm. He's more physical and has longer arms than him, but Hultzen reminds me so much of Jeremy Sowers that it scares me. Same exact delivery, arm slot. He's got some more velo, but this guy is not very impressive. Don't be fooled by his numbers this year. I'll be extremely disappointed if the Indians go his way. I can't see them doing it, however, after Sowers' failure.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:26 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.

Lot of talk about Gerrit Cole. I first saw him in the CWS last summer and I knew he'd be one of the top SP prospects b/c his arm strength is very impressive. I'm not as enthusiastic about Cole, mainly b/c I think as a starting pitcher I think his only real out-pitch is his fastball at the major league level, unless his slider improves (not so optimistic it will). I just see him getting into 2-2 counts and trying to throw his fastball by guys but major league hitters putting it into play, fouling it off, etc. I think he'll make for one of the top 5 closers in baseball (consistently), though. Thats not what I'd want with the #1 overall pick.

I saw Rendon play again a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I'd call his build unathletic. It looks more untrained to me, in the weightlifting/conditioning sense. I say this as a former personal trainer. He's pretty slightly built but fast, quick, & agile with great hand/eye & contact skills. If I'm correct in his lack of weight work, with some intelligent use of weight workouts & an eye toward retaining his flexibility, he could prevent some of the stress injuries he seems to accumulate. Most pro position players are using these types of workouts extensively. Rendon could go a long way toward "bulletproofing" his joints with proper training.

If that's the case, and he falls to the Tribe, what are you left with? Rendon is the most talented college hitter I've seen in years. He could fly through the system & rival Choo & Santana for offensive production. An almost 0% chance of it happening but we can dream. I never thought Porcello would fall into the late 20's either.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:31 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Regarding Cole; apparently his change-up has really developed this year. Keith Law compared it to Johan Santana's, extremely high praise. I saw Cole a few times last summer and did not see such a good change-up. I don't see Cole's arm action being ideal for a plus slider, but if his change-up is above major league average, I can see Cole making it as a starter in the majors. It wasn't there last summer, but if that change is there now he's top of the class.

I saw Virginia's Danny Hultzen is getting a lot of buzz. This guy is easily my least favorite 1st round potential college arm. He's more physical and has longer arms than him, but Hultzen reminds me so much of Jeremy Sowers that it scares me. Same exact delivery, arm slot. He's got some more velo, but this guy is not very impressive. Don't be fooled by his numbers this year. I'll be extremely disappointed if the Indians go his way. I can't see them doing it, however, after Sowers' failure.

Agree with you on Hultzen, who I've seen a few times. I don't think that his stuff will play in the pros but I didn't think much of Leake either, so what do I know. I really don't see any way we pick him at 8 anyway, so it's probably a moot point.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:56 pm

Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity.


The "Rendon is falling" talk that Ive heard involves him dropping to 2 or 3 not 8, though I agree that would be nice.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:08 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:The "Rendon is falling" talk that Ive heard involves him dropping to 2 or 3 not 8, though I agree that would be nice.


Agreed.

Taylor Jungmann is someone who might be available though. He seemed like a sure top 5 pick, but might drop to us. Would be a very nice option.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:40 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:The "Rendon is falling" talk that Ive heard involves him dropping to 2 or 3 not 8, though I agree that would be nice.


Agreed.

Taylor Jungmann is someone who might be available though. He seemed like a sure top 5 pick, but might drop to us. Would be a very nice option.

The fact that Rendon is/may be dropping is illustrative of why some of us were "a little angry" about the team's late season win streak last year. Imagine he drops to #5 or #6...

JP, I'd be careful of the Jungmann talk; if we pick him we might have to put OB on suicide watch. :biggrin:
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TitoFrancona » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:12 am

OhioBaseball wrote:Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.


Would Kipnish be a good comp for Rendon? I realize Rendon's a better hitting prospect, but like Kipnish, even though he's smallish, he generates good power and plays 2nd base.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby elrod enchilada » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:30 pm

Here is a draft question I have, that does not deserve a separate thread:

Why do the Indians draft guys like Jordan Cooper or Tyler Cannon or Diego Seastrunk fairly high up in the draft. The moment they are drafted (at age 22 or 23) it is obvious these guys have no more chance to make the majors than I do. They are A ball roster filler. We draft several players below them that are instantly serious prospects.

It does not strike me that we need A ball roster filler that badly any more, or if we did, we could not get it down in the Brian Heere/Logan Thompson zone of the draft. We have plenty of warm bodies that can play. Why not use these picks between rounds 9 and 15 to take a stab at someone who might actually have a remote chance of someday being a major league baseball player. Clearly there are players around who fit that description at that point in the draft.

I ask this in all seriousness. Is there some code that teams draft 22 or 23 year old guys who have no prayer just for the heck of it? I just don't get it.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:09 pm

ee.. hmm.. interesting premise to your question.. when does a draft choice become an organizational filler selection as opposed to a prospective ML'er?..

To start with, while the majority of results of past drafts favor your premise, none of the players selected in the 10th to onward rounds of the draft are EVER considered low minors roster filler. They are ALL considered potential Major Leaguers.(see a 13th roundpick out of a peoria school..wears # 25.. plays for the twins now)

The guys the Indians draft in the later rounds could be more of the variety that you are speaking of.. i.e.. prep school standouts with high upside and a lot of time between now and then to realize it.. Guys like Adam Miller, as an example.. tremendous upside.. long time getting to MLB.. and along the way.. injured.. but not everyone gets injured.. and not everyone flames out.. sometimes, you get CC Sabathia.. or Drew Pomeranz?...

There are risks: risks in the kid not signing.. the risks in signing a kid only to have to over pay to get him to skip the the lure of being a poor college kid (unless you go to USC) is greater than the need to fill the farm with prospects that have a chance to become.. become what?.. IDK.. no one does..

That's the real issue.. a high upside prep school kid.. versus a lower ceiling/more consistent college kid <=== who do you take?.. TBH.. the draft is so much about projection.. and injury potential.. that it has to be considered a true crapshoot.. in many ways.... so you hire the best guy you can find for what you're looking for.. have him checked, rechecked & cross checked.. and see what you've gotten in 2 to 5 years...
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:47 pm

The truth is teams do draft singable guys and others they have no interest in signing, I remember a late rd choice the tribe drafted as a pitcher but he wanted to be a firstbaseman, he didn't sign and in an interview said he was never contacted by the team.

Part of it is drafting guys who they feel might not slip past where they are at... Cole Cook went above Alex Lavisky, Cook appears the safer pk but Lavisky the more protential pk. Lavisky is considered a high risk high reward guy while Cook is a safer pk, may not be as good but could be a solid pitcher. To compare apples to apples consider Michael Goodnight went later too but could be the better of the 2 pitchers. The tribe generally tries to play it safe while at the same time trying to snag some value pieces like Wolters and Washington who are first rd talents at a (slighty) lesser price. Less risk/ higher reward and some leverage.

As far as roster filler I don't think teams term any of these guys as such but that is the reality of it, all these guys aren't going to make it but some do... Frank Herrmann was undrafted, remember David Riske? Wasn't he a 45th rd pk. Some of these guys are drafted for their solid attributes, while they project lowly they still have a pulse and potential to improve.
Consider Tyler Cannon he has value as an infielder and possible utility guy, his bats not great but bc of his age (23) and ability to play the infield he could still stick around and play himself into the role of a utility guy here or somewhere. Talent doesn't always blossom, and solid, intelligent players are necessary for any organization.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:00 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.


Would Kipnish be a good comp for Rendon? I realize Rendon's a better hitting prospect, but like Kipnish, even though he's smallish, he generates good power and plays 2nd base.


I see where you're coming from, but like you say, Rendon's a better hitting prospect. Rendon gets a lot better crack at the ball with more bat speed and leverage with his swing than Kipnis. Rendon is smallish for a guy that's talked about as one of the top prospects in the draft (that happens to play a corner position), but he's still a bigger guy than Kipnis. I think Rendon is around 5'10"-5'11", 190 lbs (undersized when compared to major league 3Bs) , whereas Kipnis is like 5'9", 180 lbs

Rendon is guy with potential to legitimately bat .315 with 25 HR, and he has natural infield actions. Kipnis is more of a 15 HR guy that bats .285 with not so natural infield actions (he may never make it in the infield). I like Kipnis, but I think Rendon is a considerably better prospect.

I think the main difference is that if you go to a game and watch players and don't know who they are, Rendon will stand out when taking BP or at bat during games. He gets very good bat speed, clears his hips well and gets very good extension. Rendon still doesnt have the tools that Longoria does, or Alex Gordon did when he was at Nebraska, but he projects well as a hitter. Kipnis doesn't really stand out much taking BP, defensively, running, etc. He doesn't have any plus major league tools, but if he proves he can hit, his tools are good enough to play.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:09 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.

Lot of talk about Gerrit Cole. I first saw him in the CWS last summer and I knew he'd be one of the top SP prospects b/c his arm strength is very impressive. I'm not as enthusiastic about Cole, mainly b/c I think as a starting pitcher I think his only real out-pitch is his fastball at the major league level, unless his slider improves (not so optimistic it will). I just see him getting into 2-2 counts and trying to throw his fastball by guys but major league hitters putting it into play, fouling it off, etc. I think he'll make for one of the top 5 closers in baseball (consistently), though. Thats not what I'd want with the #1 overall pick.

I saw Rendon play again a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I'd call his build unathletic. It looks more untrained to me, in the weightlifting/conditioning sense. I say this as a former personal trainer. He's pretty slightly built but fast, quick, & agile with great hand/eye & contact skills. If I'm correct in his lack of weight work, with some intelligent use of weight workouts & an eye toward retaining his flexibility, he could prevent some of the stress injuries he seems to accumulate. Most pro position players are using these types of workouts extensively. Rendon could go a long way toward "bulletproofing" his joints with proper training.

If that's the case, and he falls to the Tribe, what are you left with? Rendon is the most talented college hitter I've seen in years. He could fly through the system & rival Choo & Santana for offensive production. An almost 0% chance of it happening but we can dream. I never thought Porcello would fall into the late 20's either.


Rocky I think you're right about Rendon. His build is definitely not "unathletic", but I've seen better builds. He would serve himself well by trying to get into better shape! For crying out loud; you've got major league GM's and scouting directors watching you closely -- you'd think you would try to get into tip-top shape, right? I think his injuries may have made it difficult for him to condition himself well. When I criticize his build, I don't think its much of an issue if you're drafting him out of college. His body won't fall apart on him in his 20's (when you'd have contractual control of him), but when he gets beyond 30, I can see his body falling apart on him the way Lance Berkman's has (the Rice connection is a coincidence) unless he really stays on top of his conditioning.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:16 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:Buster Olney tweeted something this morning about how Anthony Rendon is falling in the minds of some GMs, primarily in the favor of Gerrit Cole. Rendon's #s this year aren't all that awesome, for what its worth. I don't know if he'll fall to #8, but it'd be great to add him to the system if given the opportunity. I've been critical of him in the past b/c I think people want to compare him to someone like Longoria; Rendon is considerably smaller, he's got injury problems (fluke?), and I don't think he's got all that athletic of a build. The guy can really swing a baseball bat, though, and his infield actions suggest he could handle an infield skill position (3b or 2b). I see him as a similar guy as Edgar Martinez, but less prolific with the bat (Martinez saw his best power years from 32-37 years old) and considerably more defensive skill.


Would Kipnish be a good comp for Rendon? I realize Rendon's a better hitting prospect, but like Kipnish, even though he's smallish, he generates good power and plays 2nd base.

Rendon's a 3B. He's listed 6' & 190lbs., which seems accurate. Of the current Tribe guys he's closest to Santana in size & offensive potential, IMO. He's faster though. He's got all of the game skills that you would want, is a good athlete, & should get stronger as he matures. As good as he is presently I still see upside. Really nothing like Kipnis at all.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TitoFrancona » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:41 pm

Rocky55 wrote: Rendon's a 3B. He's listed 6' & 190lbs., which seems accurate. Of the current Tribe guys he's closest to Santana in size & offensive potential, IMO. He's faster though. He's got all of the game skills that you would want, is a good athlete, & should get stronger as he matures. As good as he is presently I still see upside. Really nothing like Kipnis at all.


Well I won't argue with - too hard, but all the reports I've seen on Rendon list him at 5'11 180lbs and Kipnish at 5'11 185. But you probably have more reports at your disposal. And as far as Rendon being a 3rd baseman vs Kipnish being a 2nd baseman, I know Rendon is a 3rd baseman but could have sworn that he's played some 2nd - but that's really not relevant, my comparison was mostly their hitting.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby GeronimoSon » Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:09 am

What the 2011 draft holds for the Indians is an opportunity to bring another blue chip prospect into the wigwam. The best player available could be a position player..or a pitcher. For this posting, consider the position players. There are quite a few talented players in this draft that should, at the very least, be considered for the Indians overall # 8 pick:

Five Position Players to Consider:
1. Rendon.. is not going to be there.. he won't make it past the Mariners. He's the goods and it would be incredible if the Indians were able to acquire him..
2. Bubba Starling, OF, Gardner-Edgerton HS (CA) is just an incredible athlete.. but won't be easy to sign. He can be a pitcher.. and OF'er or a corner IF'er.. he can flat out hit..is a big kid and has great hands.. If he's there at # 8, the Indians would be the happiest guys on the planet to draft him..
3. George Springer, OF, Connecticut: This was my original first pick for the Indians. While his season at UConn hasn't been his best.. the tools are still there.. he'd be an easier "sign" for the risk aversive Indians..
4. Jackie Bradley Jr., OF, South Carolina.. is a lot like LeVon Washington currently in the Indians system. He's a smallish guy with a big bat & long swing.. he has all the tools to be an excellent CF'er
5. Nick Delmonico, C, Farragut HS (Tenn) Could be considered the best pure hitter from the 2011 prep ranks. He's a catcher.. or should be one.. his bother is a catcher (with the dodgers?) and his other brother is a catcher. You can't ever have enough good catchers..

Pitchers to Consider: (for a later posting)
Gerrit Cole, RHP, UCLA, Danny Hultzen, LHP, Virginia, Sonny Gray, RHP, Vanderbilt, Taylor Jungmann, RHP, Texas and Matt Purke, LHP, Texas Christian, Matt Barnes P Connecticut, Archie Bradley P Muskogee Oklahoma
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:34 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
Rocky55 wrote: Rendon's a 3B. He's listed 6' & 190lbs., which seems accurate. Of the current Tribe guys he's closest to Santana in size & offensive potential, IMO. He's faster though. He's got all of the game skills that you would want, is a good athlete, & should get stronger as he matures. As good as he is presently I still see upside. Really nothing like Kipnis at all.


Well I won't argue with - too hard, but all the reports I've seen on Rendon list him at 5'11 180lbs and Kipnish at 5'11 185. But you probably have more reports at your disposal. And as far as Rendon being a 3rd baseman vs Kipnish being a 2nd baseman, I know Rendon is a 3rd baseman but could have sworn that he's played some 2nd - but that's really not relevant, my comparison was mostly their hitting.


Hitting wise Rendon is vastly superior to Kipnis in terms of his bat in college and potential. Rendon is much more like an Evan Longoria or Ryan Zimmerman type of bat/glove combo. I agree, Santana is a better 'bat' comparison for Rendon as he has that type of star potential.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:
Rocky55 wrote: Rendon's a 3B. He's listed 6' & 190lbs., which seems accurate. Of the current Tribe guys he's closest to Santana in size & offensive potential, IMO. He's faster though. He's got all of the game skills that you would want, is a good athlete, & should get stronger as he matures. As good as he is presently I still see upside. Really nothing like Kipnis at all.


Well I won't argue with - too hard, but all the reports I've seen on Rendon list him at 5'11 180lbs and Kipnish at 5'11 185. But you probably have more reports at your disposal. And as far as Rendon being a 3rd baseman vs Kipnish being a 2nd baseman, I know Rendon is a 3rd baseman but could have sworn that he's played some 2nd - but that's really not relevant, my comparison was mostly their hitting.


Hitting wise Rendon is vastly superior to Kipnis in terms of his bat in college and potential. Rendon is much more like an Evan Longoria or Ryan Zimmerman type of bat/glove combo. I agree, Santana is a better 'bat' comparison for Rendon as he has that type of star potential.

Know what's cool? We got a player that the #1 pick in the Draft HOPES he's as good as...for Casey Blake!!
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TitoFrancona » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:04 am

Thanks everyone for the information. Haven't seen Rendon play but if he drops in the Indians' lap, I certainly hope they pull the trigger.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:45 am

It's going to be interesting to see how many of these draft pks the tribe will sign will there be room for them, in Mahoning Valley? Or Arizona league team? Right now I'd guess if the tribe uses the same approach as last yr 20-25 and a cpl roster filler guys too.
There's a lot of upper level talent the Tribe should be able to snag a cpl of guys with 1st rd grades.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:41 pm

GeronimoSon wrote:What the 2011 draft holds for the Indians is an opportunity to bring another blue chip prospect into the wigwam. The best player available could be a position player..or a pitcher. For this posting, consider the position players. There are quite a few talented players in this draft that should, at the very least, be considered for the Indians overall # 8 pick:

Five Position Players to Consider:
1. Rendon.. is not going to be there.. he won't make it past the Mariners. He's the goods and it would be incredible if the Indians were able to acquire him..
2. Bubba Starling, OF, Gardner-Edgerton HS (CA) is just an incredible athlete.. but won't be easy to sign. He can be a pitcher.. and OF'er or a corner IF'er.. he can flat out hit..is a big kid and has great hands.. If he's there at # 8, the Indians would be the happiest guys on the planet to draft him..
3. George Springer, OF, Connecticut: This was my original first pick for the Indians. While his season at UConn hasn't been his best.. the tools are still there.. he'd be an easier "sign" for the risk aversive Indians..
4. Jackie Bradley Jr., OF, South Carolina.. is a lot like LeVon Washington currently in the Indians system. He's a smallish guy with a big bat & long swing.. he has all the tools to be an excellent CF'er
5. Nick Delmonico, C, Farragut HS (Tenn) Could be considered the best pure hitter from the 2011 prep ranks. He's a catcher.. or should be one.. his bother is a catcher (with the dodgers?) and his other brother is a catcher. You can't ever have enough good catchers..


Definitely think you must list Francisco Lindor here as well. Capping off another solid year and scouts are raving about him yet again, even being called a possible top 8 or even top 5 pick. With the way the Tribe has been handling their defense at the ML level.....I would not be so quick to rule out a SS prospect who projects to stay at SS even at 8 overall. Bat is a bit limited, but at SS he should be fine. He's 2 inches bigger than Pedroia too (quick hands like him too). And if Wolters is worth over $1M....I'd paying Lindor $2.5-3M easy.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby homerawayfromhome » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:45 pm

draftsite.com actually has the Tribe selecting Francisco Lindor with the 8th overall choice and Christian Lopes -SS with the second rd choice. It goes on to project 4 Shortstops in the top 10 pks by the Tribe. It's very early to guess but I'd say the Tribe will go with at least 2 SS in the top 10 rds. My personal guess the Tribe plays it fairly safe with the first pk and then takes some gambles throughout the remainder of the draft.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby daingean » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:52 pm

homerawayfromhome wrote:draftsite.com actually has the Tribe selecting Francisco Lindor with the 8th overall choice and Christian Lopes -SS with the second rd choice. It goes on to project 4 Shortstops in the top 10 pks by the Tribe. It's very early to guess but I'd say the Tribe will go with at least 2 SS in the top 10 rds. My personal guess the Tribe plays it fairly safe with the first pk and then takes some gambles throughout the remainder of the draft.


I agree with your guess. Recent history backs this up. :s_crazy
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby GeronimoSon » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:25 pm

Hmm.. I think I'll stand on my assessment of Francisco Lindor:
Francisco Lindor.. appears to have all the tools to play SS.. but will he hit?.. not so certain of that. One thing that MUST be done right is getting a true projectable ML'er the first few picks in every draft. Lindor's bat concerns..


This guy's offensive just doesn't project as an impact ML'er. He has a very short stroke but doesn't really generate that superb bat speed. When he clears his hip to follow his turn into the ball, there just doesn't seem to be a lot of "lower half" in his swing. He is so handsy with everything he does.. both offensively and defensively. He could very well turn into a world class slap hitter who's BA is always in the low .300's.. He is definitely not worth the 8th overall money that would be coming his way. I just don't see it.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TitoFrancona » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:22 pm

At this point, unless a player unexpectantly drops in the Tribe's lap at 8, I'm hoping for Springer. This serves several purposes, he would not be an overdraft at 8, he's signable, and he fills several dire needs in our system. Number one, is power. Our system is weak with true power hitting prospects. Springer fills that role.

Number 2 is that he actually would make a very solid corner OF'er, defensively. We don't have any powerhitting prospects that actually are plus defenders. Number 3 is this guy is already has excellent plate discipline and draws walks at a very good rate. Number 4 is that he's played in the Cape Cod league which means he's adjusted to wooden bats pretty well and number 5 is that, as I said, he's signable.

I don't want Lindor at all. We have enough good defensive players with questionable ML bats.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:57 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:I don't want Lindor at all. We have enough good defensive players with questionable ML bats.


um....like who? Maybe at other positions, but not SS unless you're counting Diaz who isn't a ML caliber prospect. I know fans seem to think Tony Wolters is gonna stay at SS but I wouldn't bet on it.

I also think people are underrating Lindor's bat potential. He's not going to be a 20 HR guy but his swing could easily translate to 15 HRs at the big league level. Stephen Drew potential with the bat. Could be a 15-10 guy but with gold glove defense.


I would defitenly not be upsdet with Springer though and agree with you that he fills a huge need and isn't much of an overdraft if any.....though kind of thinking he could be an option for the D'backs right in front of us for similar reasons. That pick isn't protected so they won't be taking any risks there.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby daingean » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:25 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:I don't want Lindor at all. We have enough good defensive players with questionable ML bats.


um....like who? Maybe at other positions, but not SS unless you're counting Diaz who isn't a ML caliber prospect. I know fans seem to think Tony Wolters is gonna stay at SS but I wouldn't bet on it.

I also think people are underrating Lindor's bat potential. He's not going to be a 20 HR guy but his swing could easily translate to 15 HRs at the big league level. Stephen Drew potential with the bat. Could be a 15-10 guy but with gold glove defense.


I would defitenly not be upsdet with Springer though and agree with you that he fills a huge need and isn't much of an overdraft if any.....though kind of thinking he could be an option for the D'backs right in front of us for similar reasons. That pick isn't protected so they won't be taking any risks there.


I am always a proponet of best player available in the MLB draft. Players are so far away from the show and things change by the time they are ready. Saying that, this team's focus on pitching is certainly evident throughout the organization and a big bat would be a welcome addition (specifically on the power side). I do think last year with Washington, Wolters, Holt, Bartolone and company there is an infuse of positional players.

As for Lindor, I am somewhat old school in that I prefer defense up the middle and he does fit that mold. If he is GG material he needs to be in the mix but power bats are special and Springer does have some speed too.

My vote: Springer unless someone drops to us.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:27 pm

I think you almost HAVE to go need a get an offensive draft with home run hitters this year. Look at alton that offense blows and don't think kinston is much better. The only way I don't take a hitter 1st is if Cole, Norris or Bundy are there at 8. Id like for us to get Blake Swihart or Bubba Starling I think both have great potential. Starling reminds me of Justin Upton. Swihart reminds me alot of Buster Posey. There's also Josh Bell who is raw but has a ton of potential and Travis Harrison who is the best prep power hitter but mocks seem to have him projected anywere from 10 to late 1st. With the indians last 2 drafts I don't think they would take a risk with a prep hitter and would take who ever is left of bradley jr or springer. I don't see Lindor even being in the discussion
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby dc101 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:49 pm

Springer is my personal favorite at this point. The ability to add an impact bat is what appeals to me. If Pomeranz wasn't there last year, I would have been an advocate of taking Choice just because I believe our organization is devoid of power bats.

I'm also interested in the HS guys like Starling and Archie Bradley, but I don't expect the Indians to take a HS in the 1st Round. I also really like Jungmann and Purke if one of those guys happens to fall to us.

Ultimately though, I'd prefer Springer. He's not a reach at all, fills a position of need, and would be a signable guy that would allow us to reach on some talent in the 2nd/3rd rounds again on some overslot kids.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:27 pm

Purke is projected to go mid 1st right now everything i've heard is he can pitch like strasbutg this year and he still wouldn't go top 10 because his arm action is even worse on tendons then strasburg
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:27 pm

Saw someone say it was too early for the indians to start showing interest in a group of players to draft a few days ago yet BA released their MID SEASON top 50 on 4/13, so mid season is too early? Glad he's not the GM, the indians should have their list narrowed down yesterday

Thy had Bubba Starling 6th, Sonny Grey 4th, Fransisco Lindor 7th, Trevor Bauer 8th, George Springer 10th, Jungman 13th, Matt Purke 15th, Jackie Bradley 17th, just same FWIW names
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:29 pm

They also left out Travis Harrison and only had 1 first base guy in the top 50
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Trever Bauer

Postby ClevBuck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Yay or nay at 8? He's probably going to lead the nation in strikeouts for the 2nd straight year, he has 2 starts this year that he had the stamina and mechanics to throw 120+ pitches and keep his velocity consistant all game long. He has more control strikeout abillity then Pomeranz. He claims he can hit 97-100 but he chooses not too so he can pitch deeper in to games.

College baseball season is about half way over and there don't seem to be any top hitting canidates to emerge, he would probably be a safe sign and a college player which the indians covet the last 2 years

I think I would do it unless Starlimg falls and a 2014 rotation of Carmona-Masterson-Pomeranz-White-Bauer has a very bright future plus Knapp and Carrasco in the pen or one could be the #5 if we trade Carmona or lose him to FA
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Re: Trever Bauer

Postby A.Zajac » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:27 am

And this needed its own thread.... why?
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Re: Trever Bauer

Postby ClevBuck » Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:58 am

A.Zajac wrote:And this needed its own thread.... why?


Because I can. Next question?
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Re: Trever Bauer

Postby entertheshoe » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:10 am

ClevBuck wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:And this needed its own thread.... why?


Because I can. Next question?


Who do you think you are?
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Re: Trever Bauer

Postby silverbackAXP » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:18 am

ClevBuck wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:And this needed its own thread.... why?


Because I can. Next question?


BITCH!!!
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Apr 16, 2011 2:33 pm

Merged. Let's try to keep all draft talk to this thread. Once the draft gets closer and once the Indians make picks, we can do separate threads for newsworthy items.
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Re: Trever Bauer

Postby Hermie13 » Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:54 pm

ClevBuck wrote:Yay or nay at 8? He's probably going to lead the nation in strikeouts for the 2nd straight year, he has 2 starts this year that he had the stamina and mechanics to throw 120+ pitches and keep his velocity consistant all game long. He has more control strikeout abillity then Pomeranz. He claims he can hit 97-100 but he chooses not too so he can pitch deeper in to games.

College baseball season is about half way over and there don't seem to be any top hitting canidates to emerge, he would probably be a safe sign and a college player which the indians covet the last 2 years

I think I would do it unless Starlimg falls and a 2014 rotation of Carmona-Masterson-Pomeranz-White-Bauer has a very bright future plus Knapp and Carrasco in the pen or one could be the #5 if we trade Carmona or lose him to FA


I think he's a legit option. I'm still not a huge fan of his workload and has that odd workout regiment that I'm sure the indians will try and end. But guy can deal, no doubt about that.
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Re: 2011 Amateur Draft

Postby jellis » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:16 pm

ClevBuck wrote:Saw someone say it was too early for the indians to start showing interest in a group of players to draft a few days ago yet BA released their MID SEASON top 50 on 4/13, so mid season is too early? Glad he's not the GM, the indians should have their list narrowed down yesterday

Thy had Bubba Starling 6th, Sonny Grey 4th, Fransisco Lindor 7th, Trevor Bauer 8th, George Springer 10th, Jungman 13th, Matt Purke 15th, Jackie Bradley 17th, just same FWIW names



I wrote such a thing, and I also wrote the draft article on the site. You don't limit players at this point. You scout as many as you can and don't start limiting your field till mid May. The reason It is only MID SEASON. I want you to copy the list now and then look back on draft day and see if its even close. I think you might be suprised
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