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Rule 5

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:34 am

Hermie13 wrote:My solution to fixing the infield defense......Nix at 2B and Donald at 3B. Nix IS an above average defensive 2B. Always has been. Donald doesn't have the bat for 3B but I think defensively he would fit well.


Does Donald have the arm for it? Because I seem to remember seeing a lot of infield singles to the SS when Donald was playing the position. Besides...

As we've learned with Nix/Valbuena... 3B is not an easy position to transfer to. It's a completely different position from middle IF. Your reaction times have to be way quicker. I remember Donald had some quote about learning to play 2B basically was just doing everything the same but flipped... like a mirrored image of playing SS. 3B is not like that. That's why Nix is playing there in winter ball. If the Indians wanted to see Donald there, he'd be playing the position in one of the off-season leagues. But his bat would be awful for 3B, and he doesn't have a future there. The only positive thing it'd do is make him better-suited to be a utility guy in the future, but...

Even though nobody expects it, I think the Indians have to at least go into the start of next season with an attitude of "we CAN win this". Right now, Donald is the starting 2B, and he needs to be the best starting 2B he can possibly be. That means getting more reps there, and trying to be as much of an asset to his pitchers as possible. He doesn't need to be messing around at 3B right now.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:02 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:My solution to fixing the infield defense......Nix at 2B and Donald at 3B. Nix IS an above average defensive 2B. Always has been. Donald doesn't have the bat for 3B but I think defensively he would fit well.


Does Donald have the arm for it? Because I seem to remember seeing a lot of infield singles to the SS when Donald was playing the position. Besides...

As we've learned with Nix/Valbuena... 3B is not an easy position to transfer to. It's a completely different position from middle IF. Your reaction times have to be way quicker. I remember Donald had some quote about learning to play 2B basically was just doing everything the same but flipped... like a mirrored image of playing SS. 3B is not like that. That's why Nix is playing there in winter ball. If the Indians wanted to see Donald there, he'd be playing the position in one of the off-season leagues. But his bat would be awful for 3B, and he doesn't have a future there. The only positive thing it'd do is make him better-suited to be a utility guy in the future, but...

Even though nobody expects it, I think the Indians have to at least go into the start of next season with an attitude of "we CAN win this". Right now, Donald is the starting 2B, and he needs to be the best starting 2B he can possibly be. That means getting more reps there, and trying to be as much of an asset to his pitchers as possible. He doesn't need to be messing around at 3B right now.


Donald did struggle with the arm at SS.....but IMO it's not a huge deal at 3B since it's reaction time. Ball gets to you quicker; therefore, even with the longer throw he should be fine. Plus....ask yourself, is his arm worse than Valbuena or Nix's really? IMO, no.


As I said, Donald has played 3B though. The Phillies gave him a few games there prior to the trade (never played 2B in a regular season minor league game though). That's where the Phillies viewed him if they held on to him. So I'm mostly trusting their instincts here and say Donald can play 3B.


I agree, Donald doesn't have a future as a starting 3B......he doesn't have a future as a starting 2B in Cleveland either though.


And I disagree strongly. IF the Tribe was going in with a "we can win this" then Nix should definitely be at 2B since he's clearly the better defensive player and had the better offensive year. Move Donald, the lesser player.

But the Tribe won't be going in with quite that attitude. So they will leave Donald at 2B. Just saying I don't agree 100% with it. Part of me wants him in AAA playing SS as I'm not 100% sold on Cabrera being in a Tribe uniform past 2012 if he doesn't really pick it up.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:35 am

Does anyone have a list of Minor League free agents for the Indians going into next year? I know Toregas, Head, and Constanza have been discussed, and I'd assume Damaso Espino is going to be one again. Anyone else?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:24 pm

This topic should start to heat up with roster removals coming soon and the roster addition deadline coming in three weeks. After a lot of research and intel, I am posting a breakdown tomorrow (Thurs) of the guys I think we remove.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby jellis » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:29 pm

TonyIPI wrote:This topic should start to heat up with roster removals coming soon and the roster addition deadline coming in three weeks. After a lot of research and intel, I am posting a breakdown tomorrow (Thurs) of the guys I think we remove.



Tony I could brush out the old article and update it from last year whenever you want it
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:03 am

jellis wrote:Tony I could brush out the old article and update it from last year whenever you want it


Sure, anything you want to dust off and update I would be happy to post.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:02 pm

Nice article today Tony.
As you put together the 'who gets added' article, I would be curious to learn how much (if any) weight you or the Indians puts on how the player came to the organization - drafted (high or low), free agency or trade.

I doubt much weight is given but I have to believe some weight is placed there in the case of players acquired in trades (especially high profile trades like VMart, Lee and CC).
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Re: Rule 5

Postby toledobuck » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:01 am

Tony - In your article yesterday about potential guys being taken off of the 40 man roster you did not say anything about Jordan Brown. I think he is definately on the bubble as well. If the Tribe has any intentions of rostering Adam Miller, I think that they will need to clear space for at least 6 spots.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:13 am

toledobuck wrote:Tony - In your article yesterday about potential guys being taken off of the 40 man roster you did not say anything about Jordan Brown. I think he is definately on the bubble as well. If the Tribe has any intentions of rostering Adam Miller, I think that they will need to clear space for at least 6 spots.


Was not mentioned because in my research I got the feeling his status on 40-man is very secure. At least up until the 40-man deadline.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:06 pm

TonyIPI wrote:
toledobuck wrote:Tony - In your article yesterday about potential guys being taken off of the 40 man roster you did not say anything about Jordan Brown. I think he is definately on the bubble as well. If the Tribe has any intentions of rostering Adam Miller, I think that they will need to clear space for at least 6 spots.


Was not mentioned because in my research I got the feeling his status on 40-man is very secure. At least up until the 40-man deadline.


I found it odd that Jensen Lewis is considered secure, or that they think he'll fetch anything in a trade. I thought we had come to the conclusion that "every team has a player or two like Jensen Lewis on their roster" (i.e that he's a replacement player and isn't worth much other than organizational depth), so it's curious to me that the Indians F.O seems to think he has more value than that.

Ditto for Joe Smith for me. The guy is only good against righties, and is easily replaceable.

You list Huffman and Marte as guys who could be cut in favor of a FA signing, but why not Valbuena? If he fails to make the team out of spring training and looks awful, could the team decide to DFA him then?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:26 pm

Edible14 wrote:You list Huffman and Marte as guys who could be cut in favor of a FA signing, but why not Valbuena? If he fails to make the team out of spring training and looks awful, could the team decide to DFA him then?


The last 3-4 guys on any 40-man are fringe guys anyway, and more just fodder/depth. Same with the last few protects added. Smith may not be that valuable, but the key is he is proven in the big leagues. You aren't going to see a team clear the decks of 8-10 guys just to add 7-10 prospects to the 40-man. I'd be surprised if the Indians add more than 5 really.

As for Valbuena, as I noted in the piece, could he have just had a bad year? He showed a lot of promise in 2009....but was ridiculously bad in 2010. Was that performance really indicative of his true talent this year? Or just a gork? They have few utility options, and he will be one of the main candidates. Plus as a LH, he complements nicely with Donald at 2B to start the season. But I think he still has a little value, and one mistake you can't make is cutting guys based off of one bad season. I mean, look at the year Cliff Lee had in 2007. Sometimes guys just have an extremely bad year.

As I said, I think he gets to the midpoint of the season. If his 2010 performance carriers over into the first half of 2011, he gone. Who is at risk of being lost if we keep him? He's more valuable than any infielder in the system needing protected, and there are not a whole lot of relievers we will be protecting. Mostly starters.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:48 pm

Edible14 wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:
toledobuck wrote:Tony - In your article yesterday about potential guys being taken off of the 40 man roster you did not say anything about Jordan Brown. I think he is definately on the bubble as well. If the Tribe has any intentions of rostering Adam Miller, I think that they will need to clear space for at least 6 spots.


Was not mentioned because in my research I got the feeling his status on 40-man is very secure. At least up until the 40-man deadline.


I found it odd that Jensen Lewis is considered secure, or that they think he'll fetch anything in a trade. I thought we had come to the conclusion that "every team has a player or two like Jensen Lewis on their roster" (i.e that he's a replacement player and isn't worth much other than organizational depth), so it's curious to me that the Indians F.O seems to think he has more value than that.

Ditto for Joe Smith for me. The guy is only good against righties, and is easily replaceable.

You list Huffman and Marte as guys who could be cut in favor of a FA signing, but why not Valbuena? If he fails to make the team out of spring training and looks awful, could the team decide to DFA him then?



I don't see why you don't give Jensen Lewis the same treatment you gave Raffy Perez this year. Give him 6-10 weeks to try and prove himself again. If he truely struggles you can then make a move for one of the AA/AAA bullpen guys who don't need to be rostered this winter (ie. Stowell, etc).

Lewis has proven he can be a competent ML reliever at times. You cut him...you have to replace him with a ML reliever, can't keep throwing rookies in there. It's scary how bad our bullpen looks after Perez, Perez, and Smith. Pestano and the young guys look like they have potential, but can't start the year with 3 or 4 of them. Perez, Perez, Smith, Lewis, Sipp, Hermann, and Pestano (or Laffey) is what I'd like to see to start the year (though I think we're underrating Germano some here). Why force a guy like Judy or Stowell or any of the young guys on? Or are you gonna bring in another Jamey Wright if you cut Lewis/Smith?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:56 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Lewis has proven he can be a competent ML reliever at times. You cut him...you have to replace him with a ML reliever, can't keep throwing rookies in there. It's scary how bad our bullpen looks after Perez, Perez, and Smith. Pestano and the young guys look like they have potential, but can't start the year with 3 or 4 of them. Perez, Perez, Smith, Lewis, Sipp, Hermann, and Pestano (or Laffey) is what I'd like to see to start the year (though I think we're underrating Germano some here). Why force a guy like Judy or Stowell or any of the young guys on? Or are you gonna bring in another Jamey Wright if you cut Lewis/Smith?


My position is that Lewis is replaceable. I agree that you'll need 1 or 2 veteran middle relievers on the team next year, but I'm more in favor of seeing Germano, Smith, Lewis, Grilli, etc have to battle for that spot on the roster in spring training. If I was constructing the bullpen for next year, I'd have Sipp, Perez, Perez, Herrman and Pestano penciled in. I'd let Lewis, Smith, Germano and maybe a few others battle for 1 or 2 of the remaining spots, to be added at the end of ST. And I more or less assume that one of Judy, Todd and Miller make a strong push in ST to make the team as a reliever as well. Injuries always cloud this, though. I get that there's a "too many rookies" concern, but I honestly don't have that high of an opinion of Lewis and Smith, and I don't think they should ever be considered the key to the bullpen.

I'm not saying that we should cut Lewis for no reason, but I think if you're of the opinion that Judy, Bryson or whoever else would be unprotected in the Rule 5 draft would be taken and would be able to contribute as much if not more than Lewis... why not? I don't think he's going to be a hot commodity. He'll certainly clear waivers, and if you can get him back on a spring training invite/minor league contract... why not?

I also tend to think that Joe Smith is overrated, and is largely unreliable as anything other than a righty specialist. But, meh, I wouldn't be surprised to see him return. I just think he's got to be a candidate for being let go, and a guy that's considered if the 40 man gets tight and moves have to be made. I guess Huffman and Marte would be first if Tony's front page predictions come true, though.

It largely depends on how much space you want to make on the 40-man roster. If the Indians decide they want to have a spot open for the draft so that they can maybe steal someone, that would need to be considered. Right now there seem to be 4 consensus picks to be added (Kluber, McAllister, Hagadone and Judy), a few guys that are in the conversation but not likely to be added (JRod, Goedert, Bryson, Graham, McBride) and Adam Miller is the wildcard. If I had to guess by Tony's prediction, I'd say Miller is the 5th addition in his scenario.

My prediction is that we'll all be surprised by a few things that happen. Even with all his insider knowledge, Tony gets thrown a few curveballs by the FO from time to time.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:06 pm

If you don't trade Lewis, you keep him as an option for the pen in spring training. He's a fringe ML reliever, but has had success in the past and may be a good short term 6th/7th inning guy. I don't foresee any rookie, even Pestano, making the bullpen. Technically Herrmann is a rookie, but he's the only one to me who does.

It will be C. Perez, R. Perez, T. Sipp, J. Smith, with Laffey the long man. They will say Pestano is an option and considered (like Judy, Putnam, ect), but the other two spots probably come down to Herrmann, Lewis, Todd, and Miller....with the preference on Miller/Lewis to get the spots.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby GoTribe028 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:25 pm

I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:12 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.


Glad I posted the article when I did as I had the feeling some moves were coming. :wink:

No surprise here. Another round of cuts coming soon.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:36 am

Edible14 wrote:Right now there seem to be 4 consensus picks to be added (Kluber, McAllister, Hagadone and Judy), a few guys that are in the conversation but not likely to be added (JRod, Goedert, Bryson, Graham, McBride) and Adam Miller is the wildcard. If I had to guess by Tony's prediction, I'd say Miller is the 5th addition in his scenario.

My prediction is that we'll all be surprised by a few things that happen. Even with all his insider knowledge, Tony gets thrown a few curveballs by the FO from time to time.


Not sure Judy is a consensus guy now. Amazing how quickly things change over the course of a season as he was once almost flat out a lock. I think Bryson may have bumped and switched spots based on your listing.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 10:10 am

TonyIPI wrote:
Edible14 wrote:Right now there seem to be 4 consensus picks to be added (Kluber, McAllister, Hagadone and Judy), a few guys that are in the conversation but not likely to be added (JRod, Goedert, Bryson, Graham, McBride) and Adam Miller is the wildcard. If I had to guess by Tony's prediction, I'd say Miller is the 5th addition in his scenario.

My prediction is that we'll all be surprised by a few things that happen. Even with all his insider knowledge, Tony gets thrown a few curveballs by the FO from time to time.


Not sure Judy is a consensus guy now. Amazing how quickly things change over the course of a season as he was once almost flat out a lock. I think Bryson may have bumped and switched spots based on your listing.


Coming into the season I could have understood Judy over Bryson if Rob had still been injured or ineffective. Not at this point. In 2010 - Bryson was neither of those. He served notice that he was healthy and was making up for lost time by dominating across multiple levels.

If the 2 guys grade out relatively 'equal' & only have room to keep one, I give the nod to Bryson since he is the only pitcher remaining from the CC trade in 2008. Unless Brantley and LaPorta take multiple steps forward, Bryson is the last guy that can be 'the stud' acquired in that deal.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:59 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.



They forgot to check with me first, however I do approve these moves. :clapping:
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Re: Rule 5

Postby GeronimoSon » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:42 am

...Duncan would basically take over Marte's role...
The Indians have a role for a non-hitting, non-catching, non-running player? Wow, this team is deep....
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:58 pm

GoTribe028 wrote:I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.


Luke Carlin gone now too.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:59 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.


Luke Carlin gone now too.


He's a free agent due to having 6+ years of service time, right?

So who catches at AAA next year? Do they attempt to re-sign Gimenez, Espino, Carlin or Toregas? They did re-sign Apodaca, I guess, but that leaves nobody else other than Santana and Marson who were above AA last year. Unless they convert McBride back to catcher.

It seems a trivial matter, but you'd think the org wants/needs a ML-ready catcher in case Santana and/or Marson gets hurt. Apodaca can't be the only backup plan, can he?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:56 pm

Edible14 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:I guess this could go in this thread, but Anthony Reyes, Chris Giminez, and Hector Ambriz were outrighted to Columbus and are not on the 40 man roster anymore.


Luke Carlin gone now too.


He's a free agent due to having 6+ years of service time, right?

So who catches at AAA next year? Do they attempt to re-sign Gimenez, Espino, Carlin or Toregas? They did re-sign Apodaca, I guess, but that leaves nobody else other than Santana and Marson who were above AA last year. Unless they convert McBride back to catcher.

It seems a trivial matter, but you'd think the org wants/needs a ML-ready catcher in case Santana and/or Marson gets hurt. Apodaca can't be the only backup plan, can he?

Hi Ed, it could be any of the 4 IMO but with at least 4 developing prospects likely in the Columbus starting staff, it seems likely they would give preference to a veteran who handles pitchers well and that would seem to give the edge to Carlin and Toregas unless personality issues intervene. I am not entirely sure the Akron situation is totally resolved and Tony might be more knowledgeable about that but if we promote our defensively challeged Taiwanese slugger to Akron it might free up Apodaca as you have noted. :pleasantry:
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:22 pm

Edible14 wrote:He's a free agent due to having 6+ years of service time, right?

So who catches at AAA next year? Do they attempt to re-sign Gimenez, Espino, Carlin or Toregas? They did re-sign Apodaca, I guess, but that leaves nobody else other than Santana and Marson who were above AA last year. Unless they convert McBride back to catcher.

It seems a trivial matter, but you'd think the org wants/needs a ML-ready catcher in case Santana and/or Marson gets hurt. Apodaca can't be the only backup plan, can he?


Carlin is a FA because is was the second time he was outrighted off a big league roster.

I think the Indians will make an effort to resign him. They threw him a bone by calling him up late in the season, and with no catcher at Columbus next year he may see it as an opportunity to be our 3rd catcher and play there regularly. I'd say it is 50/50 he resigns.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:41 pm

A guy like Carlin would be a good minor league free agent to bring back. Seems like a good fit for him and don't really see why he wouldn't want to come back. Obviously Santana is the #1....but still not sold that Marson will be the backup for the full season. There very likely will be ML at-bats for him again next year at some point.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:52 pm

Hermie13 wrote:A guy like Carlin would be a good minor league free agent to bring back. Seems like a good fit for him and don't really see why he wouldn't want to come back. Obviously Santana is the #1....but still not sold that Marson will be the backup for the full season. There very likely will be ML at-bats for him again next year at some point.

Hermie,
It comes down to what Carlin wants. Does he prefer being a regular player in AAA or on a big league bench somewhere else?

While I agree with many that Carlin seems to be a good fit here, the question becomes do you want to spend a 40 man spot so that he (or someone like him) backs up Santana in the majors or have a player like Carlin in AAA (& not on the 40 man), serving as a quick fall-back plan in the event of a catching injury.

I'm unsure if keeping Marson in AAA next season is the best move for him or the team. Should the Tribe feel Marson is best as the backup, it makes Cleveland a lot less appealing to someone still looking to accumulate major-league service time (for retirement purposes). Additionally a person is going to make less in AAA then the major league minimum riding a bench in the majors.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:41 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:A guy like Carlin would be a good minor league free agent to bring back. Seems like a good fit for him and don't really see why he wouldn't want to come back. Obviously Santana is the #1....but still not sold that Marson will be the backup for the full season. There very likely will be ML at-bats for him again next year at some point.

Hermie,
It comes down to what Carlin wants. Does he prefer being a regular player in AAA or on a big league bench somewhere else?

While I agree with many that Carlin seems to be a good fit here, the question becomes do you want to spend a 40 man spot so that he (or someone like him) backs up Santana in the majors or have a player like Carlin in AAA (& not on the 40 man), serving as a quick fall-back plan in the event of a catching injury.

I'm unsure if keeping Marson in AAA next season is the best move for him or the team. Should the Tribe feel Marson is best as the backup, it makes Cleveland a lot less appealing to someone still looking to accumulate major-league service time (for retirement purposes). Additionally a person is going to make less in AAA then the major league minimum riding a bench in the majors.


My guess is that they're not going to use a 40-man roster spot on a guy like Carlin. If they wanted Marson to start at AAA, they would have just kept Carlin or Giminez. Whoever they get to be the (other?) catcher at AAA is going to be there in case of injury to Santana or Marson.

Granted, I too think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have Marson at AAA to start. But that's clearly not the way it's going. Unless they sign a guy like Mike Redmond again.

And much wailing and gnashing of teeth that will bring.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:52 pm

Tribe should not have any third catcher taking a roster spot on this roster right now, but I think it is possible that Marson opens in Columbus and someone like Carlin or whoever opens as the backup in Cleveland. This org is repeating a lot of what they did in the rebuild in 2002-2004, and I see some similarities with the Bard/Martinez and Marson/Santana comp with how they are being used, and if you go by what they did in 2004 (this is what our 2011 will be patterned after), then Marson may open in COlumbus.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MickS » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:13 am

When should we expect the next round of cuts (surely there will be some, right?)? I've been busy and having been paying a great deal of attention but I just took a cursory glance at the 40 man roster and there is more mediocrity there than I remembered. Do we really need Carrera and Crowe on the roster? Duncan, Huffman, Brown, Sutton, etc., etc., etc. Ugh! I'm even wondering if Huff deserves a roster spot. Isn't it time to clean house? Who's most likely to go?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:50 am

MickS wrote:When should we expect the next round of cuts (surely there will be some, right?)? I've been busy and having been paying a great deal of attention but I just took a cursory glance at the 40 man roster and there is more mediocrity there than I remembered. Do we really need Carrera and Crowe on the roster? Duncan, Huffman, Brown, Sutton, etc., etc., etc. Ugh! I'm even wondering if Huff deserves a roster spot. Isn't it time to clean house? Who's most likely to go?


http://www.indiansprospectinsider.com/2 ... -they.html

I broke down the 40-man last week on who I think stays/goes...so there you go in case you missed it. As for Crowe and Carrera, aside from a trade, both will definitely be here at least to start next season. It is intriguing to break down the 40-man to see who is ultimately rostered, but the final 5-7 spots are always usually considered fungible.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:21 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:A guy like Carlin would be a good minor league free agent to bring back. Seems like a good fit for him and don't really see why he wouldn't want to come back. Obviously Santana is the #1....but still not sold that Marson will be the backup for the full season. There very likely will be ML at-bats for him again next year at some point.

Hermie,
It comes down to what Carlin wants. Does he prefer being a regular player in AAA or on a big league bench somewhere else?

While I agree with many that Carlin seems to be a good fit here, the question becomes do you want to spend a 40 man spot so that he (or someone like him) backs up Santana in the majors or have a player like Carlin in AAA (& not on the 40 man), serving as a quick fall-back plan in the event of a catching injury.

I'm unsure if keeping Marson in AAA next season is the best move for him or the team. Should the Tribe feel Marson is best as the backup, it makes Cleveland a lot less appealing to someone still looking to accumulate major-league service time (for retirement purposes). Additionally a person is going to make less in AAA then the major league minimum riding a bench in the majors.


You think a team out there will give Carlin a ML job and ML contract his winter? I sure don't. My point was Cleveland very, very easily could look the most appealing to him as a potential big league bench job.


I'm still a huge Marson fan. I see him being an All-Star catcher down the line in the mold of a Jason Kendall (won't steal 20 bases though). He was forced to the bigs too soon (guy is younger than Santana). I'd hate to see him stuck behind Santana and getting 40 games behind the plate this year. I still think with more work he'll be a .275 hitter with a solid .350 OBP. With his defense....that's starting material on most teams in baseball.


As far as wasting a roster spot on Carlin (or someone like him)...I don't now obviously or even throughout the spring. Someone is bound to be hurt. May not even have to make a real move to get a guy like Carlin back onto the 40-man.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Pork Chop Pough » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:30 pm

The "Waiting for Carlos Rivero" era has come to a close. He's been claimed off waivers by the Phillies. I have to say I'm a little surprised that he didn't clear, but I guess we aren't the only ones who have heard about his batting practice heroics and untapped potential. Part of me is certainly sad to see him go... I know I'm not the only one around here who has been predicting his imminent breakout for multiple years now. The first time I saw him play, he had a game-winning hit for Lake County in walk-off style, and I've been a fan ever since. Well, good luck to him just the same.

(Sorry, I don't see any source yet beyond the blurb on Rotoworld)
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Re: Rule 5

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:38 pm

Pork Chop Pough wrote:The "Waiting for Carlos Rivero" era has come to a close. He's been claimed off waivers by the Phillies. I have to say I'm a little surprised that he didn't clear, but I guess we aren't the only ones who have heard about his batting practice heroics and untapped potential. Part of me is certainly sad to see him go... I know I'm not the only one around here who has been predicting his imminent breakout for multiple years now. The first time I saw him play, he had a game-winning hit for Lake County in walk-off style, and I've been a fan ever since. Well, good luck to him just the same.

(Sorry, I don't see any source yet beyond the blurb on Rotoworld)

Yeah PCP, such promise and a terrific work ethic. Until last year, played the game very intelligently. Wonder where it all went wrong?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:48 pm

Yep, Rivero is gone. Will be interesting to see if he realizes his potential in Philly....a very interesting pickup and surprised he did not clear waivers.

Will say this now: no matter what he becomes, you can't fault the Indians for removing him from the roster. His performance with the club the past year-plus has flatlined and there are just more important players to roster at this point.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:56 pm

The phillies were also the last team in the waiver order. So he cleared the other 28 teams.

So goes the old addage, "it only takes one".
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:49 pm

Tony's posted a few more moves via twitter tonight..... This will be interesting when all is said & done.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MickS » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:59 pm

Don't know how many moves are yet to come or who the organization feels they need to add but I would have dumped Duncan before Rivero. Still hard to find fault.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:15 pm

So far: Giminez, Reyes, Carlin, and Rivero are (at this moment) out of the org. Ambriz, Hodges, Sutton and Huffman have been outrighted. 4 spots are open. Perhaps a couple more need to be opened.

Tony, you wrote that Duncan and Germano would probably be DFA'd. Any movement from that position?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:18 pm

Not finding fault so far. I got a feeling another 3 spots need to be opened for adding players from the minors.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:27 pm

Edible14 wrote:Tony, you wrote that Duncan and Germano would probably be DFA'd. Any movement from that position?


It was really an either or between Duncan and Huffman, and with Huffman off (they still like him), Duncan appears safe as they want at least one RH outfielder on the roster. Only way he comes off now would be if they sign a FA right-handed hitting outfielder, so looks like Duncan is going to be on the roster come the Nov 20th deadline. Germano and Marte appear to be the only two the Indians may still DFA, though I think those two along with Duncan will likely just be their "roster fodder" when making a FA/trade acquisition or to dump someone to get someone on in the spring.

Looks like this may be it. So, with that in mind, start figuring out who our 4 players are we protect.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby Edible14 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:48 pm

MickS wrote:When should we expect the next round of cuts (surely there will be some, right?)? I've been busy and having been paying a great deal of attention but I just took a cursory glance at the 40 man roster and there is more mediocrity there than I remembered. Do we really need Carrera and Crowe on the roster? Duncan, Huffman, Brown, Sutton, etc., etc., etc. Ugh! I'm even wondering if Huff deserves a roster spot. Isn't it time to clean house? Who's most likely to go?


While there's certainly a lot of guys who probably won't be there in 2 years, there's also not MUCH room that needs to be made. And there's no point in adding guys to the 40 man if they have no chance of being selected in the Rule V draft. Crowe, Carrera, Huff and Duncan could all be valuable next year, in case of injuries or improvement on their ends. It's not likely, but there's no point in cutting them to just to cut them.

Right now there's 4 spots open. Probably for Kluber, McAllister, Hagadone and... someone else (Bryson, Judy and Miller would be the candidates. Additionally, they might just leave a spot open to be able to claim a guy during the draft). There might be an argument to be made for a couple more spots being opened, but the guys you listed are far from the top of the list to be cut (IMO, that'd be Marte, Germano and JLew).

I'm guessing a large part of the reason that Huffman was DFA'd instead of Duncan is that they still retain the rights to Huffman, where Duncan would have become a FA. I actually like that decision, and I wouldn't even be opposed to Duncan making the team as a 4th/5th OF out of spring training. Still, it's going to be a bit crowded in the OF at AAA and in the majors. The way I see it:

Cleveland: Choo, Sizemore, Brantley, Crowe and Duncan
Columbus: Weglarz, Carrera, McBride, Huffman, Brown (that's assuming Goedert at 1B, since Chiz and Phelps will be at 3B)

5 OF at CBus seems a bit much, considering that DH will be occupied by the excess IF on the team. Really, it's just a crowded situation in general. Unless they're thinking about moving someone to C (McBride being the obvious choice).
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Re: Rule 5

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:10 pm

Edible14 wrote:I'm guessing a large part of the reason that Huffman was DFA'd instead of Duncan is that they still retain the rights to Huffman, where Duncan would have become a FA.


Excellent point, and one I will surely expand upon in my weekend notebook.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby allhailshapiro » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:11 pm

TonyIPI wrote:The phillies were also the last team in the waiver order. So he cleared the other 28 teams.

So goes the old addage, "it only takes one".

Maybe a sign of how depleted the Phillies are in the farm system after two years of wheeling and dealing for Lee, Halladay and then Oswalt?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby jellis » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:17 pm

from what tony has stated the 4 are pretty obvious
Miller, Hagadone, Kluber, and Mccalister Next two in order who would Bryson and Judy
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Re: Rule 5

Postby MadThinker88 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:46 pm

Edible14 wrote: Unless they're thinking about moving someone to C (McBride being the obvious choice).


If McBride is able to move back to C as a permanent move, his value increases as his bat becomes very valuable back there.

One other thing - if it came down to keeping only 1 of the guys as a reserve OF in the system, I would prefer hanging onto E. Carrera over Trevor Crowe. I realize others may disagree, but I came away more impressed in the 1 game I saw of Carrera in person then the multiple games I saw of Crowe in person.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:13 am

allhailshapiro wrote:
TonyIPI wrote:The phillies were also the last team in the waiver order. So he cleared the other 28 teams.

So goes the old addage, "it only takes one".

Maybe a sign of how depleted the Phillies are in the farm system after two years of wheeling and dealing for Lee, Halladay and then Oswalt?

Except for Dominic Brown, the Phillies upper minors have been ravaged with the trades and they got little in return for Lee. No serious IF prospects at all and a thin 40. Tailor made to give Rivero all the opportunities in the world at SS or 3B. Maybe he can resurrect something from the ashes but no reason for the tribe to keep him. Sure looks to me like we are keeping a lot of people on the 40 that will not be helping us in the rebuild but maybe a few more names to be added to the cuts.
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Re: Rule 5

Postby webba2000 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:00 am

Is Beau Mills eligible for Rule V?
Any chance someone will pick him up if we do not roster him?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:41 am

MadThinker88 wrote:
Edible14 wrote: Unless they're thinking about moving someone to C (McBride being the obvious choice).


If McBride is able to move back to C as a permanent move, his value increases as his bat becomes very valuable back there.

One other thing - if it came down to keeping only 1 of the guys as a reserve OF in the system, I would prefer hanging onto E. Carrera over Trevor Crowe. I realize others may disagree, but I came away more impressed in the 1 game I saw of Carrera in person then the multiple games I saw of Crowe in person.



I agree with you, I am done with crowe dont see anything special rather have a guy who can defend well at multiple positions

As for McBride, I still think he is being highly over valued in system unless he can get on base more hes not a MLB bat to me, and I just don't think he is ever going to be a C again, its been what 2 years since he moved?
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Re: Rule 5

Postby jellis » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:41 am

webba2000 wrote:Is Beau Mills eligible for Rule V?
Any chance someone will pick him up if we do not roster him?


0 chance, AA bats who play 1 position dont get taken especially when there star has fallen
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Re: Rule 5

Postby toledobuck » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:58 am

I was thinking that the Tribe would be clearing more than four spots on the 40. I would hate to lose Bryson, Judy, or A. Miller by keeping the likes of Germano, Marte/Nix, Brown, and even Carrera/Crowe. I think that they can pick up another IF similar to Marte/Nix through a minor league invitee if necessary. I also would look at taking off Todd as he has not really produced when given the chance as I definitely like Judy as a relief prospect better. The Tribe has been very good at maneuvering through the rule 5 draft over the past several years so lets hope they know what they are doing this year.
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