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2010 Draft Signing Thread

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:09 am

jellis wrote:
stoike wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.



I rarely disagree with you, but you are way off base on this one. Just plain WRONG, actually, if you are talking about the 2008 Tribe draft. The 2008 draft had some swings-and-misses, but also has some obvious hits. There is no conceivable way that the 2008 draft can be considered one of the worst even of the decade. It is actually one of the better. Sadly.....

I think he means more in terms of BA coverage then the Indians draft


Yeah, he's referring to the BA coverage.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby stoike » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:10 am

jellis wrote:
stoike wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.



I rarely disagree with you, but you are way off base on this one. Just plain WRONG, actually, if you are talking about the 2008 Tribe draft. The 2008 draft had some swings-and-misses, but also has some obvious hits. There is no conceivable way that the 2008 draft can be considered one of the worst even of the decade. It is actually one of the better. Sadly.....

I think he means more in terms of BA coverage then the Indians draft



LOL Okay, I admit, I was wondering. That is why I put the stipulation in there. Just impressed that he would notice a difference in a publication itself from year to year, even draft coverage.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:24 am

stoike wrote:
jellis wrote:
stoike wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.



I rarely disagree with you, but you are way off base on this one. Just plain WRONG, actually, if you are talking about the 2008 Tribe draft. The 2008 draft had some swings-and-misses, but also has some obvious hits. There is no conceivable way that the 2008 draft can be considered one of the worst even of the decade. It is actually one of the better. Sadly.....

I think he means more in terms of BA coverage then the Indians draft



LOL Okay, I admit, I was wondering. That is why I put the stipulation in there. Just impressed that he would notice a difference in a publication itself from year to year, even draft coverage.

My bad, stoike. As I have mentioned before, I sometimes speak in shorthand. In terms of absolute draft potential, I believe the 2010 could be superior to 2008 but, in the context of draft position, budget and success of slot draftees, I also believe it will be difficult for 2010 to match the success of 2008. That does not mean I do not appreciate the depth and quality of this years draft but I find it hard to believe the Indians would have had this success drafting 29th rather than 5th and without the swollen budget from the July sale-a-thon. I did enjoy the show the trible put on and was fascinated by the changing organizational dynamic of 2010 which did not occur in 2008 but BA was far worse in 2008 IMO. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby stoike » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:47 am

The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:40 pm

Rocky55 wrote:I agree with Hermie that we can't compete on an equal basis with the big money clubs, including the Bosux, in the draft. They have extra picks every year, because they lose Type A FA's every year. They lose Type A FA's every year because they have the money to sign them in the first place. We don't, and we trade the best guys before they become FA's, so we'll have to chug along with one pick per round in most years.

I'm not sure how a draft cap would help. It wouldn't get us any extra picks or take any away from the Sux, et al, unless they did away with FA compensation. A hard cap would lower the bonuses, I assume, which might lose us some picks. Fewer guys would fall due to perceived high bonus demands.



What I mean by draft cap is something along the lines of what the NFL had. Each team is allotted so much money on draft picks from the salary cap. Teams drafting high get more money, teams lower less. For example, last year the Lions had the highest amount allotted as they had the #1 overall pick.


I hope baseball never gets an actually salary cap.....but I would like to see something with the draft. Take this year....Nats have the 1st overall pick....they should get say $12M to spend on the draft. Pirates 2nd...a lil less. By the time you get to the Yanks, it should be around $5M max.

This will keep guys from dropping due to high bonus demands and landing with the big market clubs. Or, if they do fall, it keeps the Yanks or Red Sox from getting that guy plus a whole host of other overslot guys.


I personally think something like this could fly with owners and players. Would still let them spend on free agents so teams like the Yanks will be happy. The players already in the union will still get paid and if anything, maybe a lil more as teams like the Yanks and Sox won't spend as much on the draft.


Only real issue I see here is comp picks....how much more does a team like the Red Sox get for having a bunch of free agent comp picks? Personally think they shouldn't get much (if anything) more but that likely wouldn't go over well. We've talked about this too, but the free agent comp rules need changing as well. Personally think a comp pick should only be given if the free agent was with the team for at least 5 years. You shouldn't get 2 picks for having a guy for 2 months. Yes, the system allows for it, but I think it's wrong.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:07 pm

stoike wrote:The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.

Yeah stoike, I admit I was very unimpressed with 2009 initially but it has grown on me and I am quite surprised at the depth. The Indians were facing monumental financial problems and had no money to spend in 2009. I just made a gut reaction without waiting to see the players. There were no overslot except white. Just made lemonade out of lemons IMO. :pleasantry:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby gotribe31 » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:43 pm

From Keith Law:

Cleveland Indians

Cleveland spent more than $8.5 million, giving out seven-figure bonuses to four players, including first-rounder Drew Pomeranz, the top college pitcher in this draft when you consider health and track record, although others (Anthony Ranaudo, Matt Harvey) offer more upside with greater risk. Levon Washington is their best upside play; if they can fix the shoulder to the point where he can return to center field, his bat has a chance to make him an above-average player ... but he has to show a better work ethic than he had this spring at Chipola. The million-dollar bonuses for Alex Lavisky and Tony Wolters both shocked the industry. Best bargain is Robbie Aviles, headed for a second- or third-round bonus before blowing out his elbow right before the draft; he signed for $150,000.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:48 pm

stoike wrote:The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.


The 2009 draft has been really surprising. Lots of guys who might play roles in the MLs and some sure things (White, Kipnis and Gardner playing in the MLs in some role). For a draft hardly a year old, that's a good thing. On paper, at the time, it wasn't that good of a draft, especially when some of it hinged on Kipnis being converted from the OF to 2B (hardly EVER played it in college, despite what some have said), White sticking as a starting pitcher and Gardner being more than a 4-5 guy in upside.

Actually, the 2009 draft is looking better than the 2008 draft, in some respects, and I think we spent A LOT more on guys after the first round in 2008.

Now, compare both of those to the 2010 draft. We drafted many more highly ranked players, not just by BA, but by others. A lot of the players who are being successful for us, White, Chisenhall, Kipnis, Gardner, House, Putnam, Henry were all BA top 200 players as was Austin Adams. Bellows, Carlson, Tice and others, not so much and they are not doing that well, either. The point is that if you draft top prospects you have a much better chance of success than if you draft head-scratchers.

Regarding the idiots here and their ridiculous comments about BA, a publicatin that made their name in the draft, screw those fans. What they say doesn't matter anyway, at least when they make stupid derogatory comments like that, which they tend to do repeatedly.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby jellis » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 pm

dnosco wrote:
stoike wrote:The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.


The 2009 draft has been really surprising. Lots of guys who might play roles in the MLs and some sure things (White, Kipnis and Gardner playing in the MLs in some role). For a draft hardly a year old, that's a good thing. On paper, at the time, it wasn't that good of a draft, especially when some of it hinged on Kipnis being converted from the OF to 2B (hardly EVER played it in college, despite what some have said), White sticking as a starting pitcher and Gardner being more than a 4-5 guy in upside.

Actually, the 2009 draft is looking better than the 2008 draft, in some respects, and I think we spent A LOT more on guys after the first round in 2008.

Now, compare both of those to the 2010 draft. We drafted many more highly ranked players, not just by BA, but by others. A lot of the players who are being successful for us, White, Chisenhall, Kipnis, Gardner, House, Putnam, Henry were all BA top 200 players as was Austin Adams. Bellows, Carlson, Tice and others, not so much and they are not doing that well, either. The point is that if you draft top prospects you have a much better chance of success than if you draft head-scratchers.

Regarding the idiots here and their ridiculous comments about BA, a publicatin that made their name in the draft, screw those fans. What they say doesn't matter anyway, at least when they make stupid derogatory comments like that, which they tend to do repeatedly.



Really dennis, the key word was made their name. they have lost so much staff over the years and failed to replace them that is the issue, turnover killed BA. Anyone who follows the minors outside of you seems to realize this and realize they have dropped a lot in terms of value and scouting
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:38 pm

dnosco wrote:
stoike wrote:The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.


The 2009 draft has been really surprising. Lots of guys who might play roles in the MLs and some sure things (White, Kipnis and Gardner playing in the MLs in some role). For a draft hardly a year old, that's a good thing. On paper, at the time, it wasn't that good of a draft, especially when some of it hinged on Kipnis being converted from the OF to 2B (hardly EVER played it in college, despite what some have said), White sticking as a starting pitcher and Gardner being more than a 4-5 guy in upside.

Actually, the 2009 draft is looking better than the 2008 draft, in some respects, and I think we spent A LOT more on guys after the first round in 2008.

Now, compare both of those to the 2010 draft. We drafted many more highly ranked players, not just by BA, but by others. A lot of the players who are being successful for us, White, Chisenhall, Kipnis, Gardner, House, Putnam, Henry were all BA top 200 players as was Austin Adams. Bellows, Carlson, Tice and others, not so much and they are not doing that well, either. The point is that if you draft top prospects you have a much better chance of success than if you draft head-scratchers.

Regarding the idiots here and their ridiculous comments about BA, a publicatin that made their name in the draft, screw those fans. What they say doesn't matter anyway, at least when they make stupid derogatory comments like that, which they tend to do repeatedly.


Or the stupid, derogatory comments that you make regularly. There's absolutely NO need to attack us, we simply gave our opinion and we're entitled to it. This is uncalled for.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:42 pm

jellis wrote:
dnosco wrote:
stoike wrote:The really nice thing, Slinger; this should make three straight drafts that were/are at least solid, perhaps even good or very good! Nice to see this. Now, as for BA....not so sure.


The 2009 draft has been really surprising. Lots of guys who might play roles in the MLs and some sure things (White, Kipnis and Gardner playing in the MLs in some role). For a draft hardly a year old, that's a good thing. On paper, at the time, it wasn't that good of a draft, especially when some of it hinged on Kipnis being converted from the OF to 2B (hardly EVER played it in college, despite what some have said), White sticking as a starting pitcher and Gardner being more than a 4-5 guy in upside.

Actually, the 2009 draft is looking better than the 2008 draft, in some respects, and I think we spent A LOT more on guys after the first round in 2008.

Now, compare both of those to the 2010 draft. We drafted many more highly ranked players, not just by BA, but by others. A lot of the players who are being successful for us, White, Chisenhall, Kipnis, Gardner, House, Putnam, Henry were all BA top 200 players as was Austin Adams. Bellows, Carlson, Tice and others, not so much and they are not doing that well, either. The point is that if you draft top prospects you have a much better chance of success than if you draft head-scratchers.

Regarding the idiots here and their ridiculous comments about BA, a publicatin that made their name in the draft, screw those fans. What they say doesn't matter anyway, at least when they make stupid derogatory comments like that, which they tend to do repeatedly.



Really dennis, the key word was made their name. they have lost so much staff over the years and failed to replace them that is the issue, turnover killed BA. Anyone who follows the minors outside of you seems to realize this and realize they have dropped a lot in terms of value and scouting

Welcome to the idiot brigade with the rest of us jellis. :rolleyes:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:13 pm

I agree somewhat on the whole BA issue. I think their draft coverage is still pretty good, but PG Crosschecker is definately a lot better and I prefer Goldstein for overall prospect news/chats.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:45 pm

Cool it Dennis. You on the BA payroll or something? :s_biggrin

Seriously though, BA like PGCrosschecker, Keith Law, John Sickels, Kevin Goldstein and others is just another "tool" to help provide some insight and information on players. Yes, that info may not be as good as it once was a few years back, but they are still one of the best when it comes to providing draft content.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:48 pm

Indians finished #5 in draft spending this year at $9,381,500

In 2009 they spent $4,943,000 and in 2008 they spent $6,984,500

Their three year average ranks them 6th in all of baseball over the last three years.

Per BA

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/?p=2928
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:35 am

From today's PD

The Indians weren't just aggressive in this draft because they liked the available talent. They see it as a way of putting their money to better use than chasing big-league free agents this winter or in the worldwide market.

"Like I said, there is no slotting system in place," said Mirabelli. "There's a talent and acquisition system in place. Your job as an organization is to get the best talent. That's what teams are doing."

When the Indians gave Holt, an outfielder from Florida State, $500,000 as their 10th-round pick, some teams may have wondered why.

"I don't know how teams valued what we gave Tyler Holt, but for us that's a good investment," said Mirabelli. "Where are the other places that we can invest money? The high-end international market is out of control. The major-league upper-tier free agents are out of control. So each team has to pick their area of value."


Two things:

1. Exactly what I have been saying for the past 10 years and something I have said repeatedly for the last two years.

2. The Indians just figured this out?

In any case, good to see the Indians getting on board with what I have been suggesting they do. :s_biggrin
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:17 am

Dennis - you've told us that you're a genius before... maybe a million times... you must have a sore back...
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:25 am

I have been told so many times how wrong I am around here, it seems like fair balance to me, not bragging. :s_biggrin
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:33 am

Try turning it around - YOU tell us how wrong you usually are, and WE will console you by telling you its not true!!!
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:34 am

Consigliere wrote:Cool it Dennis. You on the BA payroll or something? :s_biggrin

Seriously though, BA like PGCrosschecker, Keith Law, John Sickels, Kevin Goldstein and others is just another "tool" to help provide some insight and information on players. Yes, that info may not be as good as it once was a few years back, but they are still one of the best when it comes to providing draft content.


You are correct, Tony. One thing I would love to see is for the top 200 picks or so, how they differ. I would also like to know how these individual experts get their information. Having done painstaking work on this stuff over the years, it is hard for me to imagine that any INDIVIDUAL could see all these guys to form an opinion. It would seem logical that it has to be a team, and a large team, to do that. How many people do Law, Sickels or Goldstein have working for them collecting this information and interpreting it. It seems unlikely that one person could beat a team of people with an established system. Are these guys independently wealthy so they don't have to have a real job?

Regarding BA and them falling off, while the staff may have changed in faces, did they decline in numbers? Their process remains the same and it would seem to me like the process transcends the actual incremental loss in talent from the old school to the new school BA people. Maybe not as good but still pretty good.

I would like to see someone do a comparison of all these sources and see how close they are. I would also LOVE to know if they use each other's data to help make predictions.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 8:38 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Try turning it around - YOU tell us how wrong you usually are, and WE will console you by telling you its not true!!!


Probably overstating that a bit. How about I tell you how much I piss you off when I make predictions against your favorite team and you can gloat about when I am wrong, even when there is some doubt to whether I am wrong at all, because it makes you feel that I have no clue, which I might not, just like every other person on this forum. Not trying to start a fight but a wise man on a board similar to this once told me that diehard fans of a team get really, really pissed off when you say negative things about their team, even if they are true. They even get more angry when these things turn out to be true. Just a point to consider.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:01 am

dnosco wrote:Two things:

1. Exactly what I have been saying for the past 10 years and something I have said repeatedly for the last two years.

2. The Indians just figured this out?

In any case, good to see the Indians getting on board with what I have been suggesting they do. :s_biggrin


Good Lord. Get over yourself.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:26 am

Consigliere wrote:
dnosco wrote:Two things:

1. Exactly what I have been saying for the past 10 years and something I have said repeatedly for the last two years.

2. The Indians just figured this out?

In any case, good to see the Indians getting on board with what I have been suggesting they do. :s_biggrin


Good Lord. Get over yourself.


C'mon, according to people around here I don't ever get anything right so let me at least bask in this one. :s_biggrin
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:31 am

Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:43 am

martyinnewyork wrote:Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...


I know that. The point is that I am not pointing this out for you or for 95% of the posters on this board, even though you get stuck seeing it. I think you get what I mean. And I didn't particuarly like Garcia (close to if not a AAAA guy), but I didn't like giving him away giving his performance and potential (see Kearns this year). And I had Gardner at 39 in my list, so we weren't that far apart, really.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:07 am

dnosco wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...


I know that. The point is that I am not pointing this out for you or for 95% of the posters on this board, even though you get stuck seeing it. I think you get what I mean. And I didn't particuarly like Garcia (close to if not a AAAA guy), but I didn't like giving him away giving his performance and potential (see Kearns this year). And I had Gardner at 39 in my list, so we weren't that far apart, really.

What are you "pointing out"?

Repeating from an earlier post, who among the many obviously intelligent posters on this board(or others I've read & posted on) have ever advocated picking topped out, cheap, low upside guys in the draft???

These are the guys that you seem to be posting against, so who are they??? C'mon, name them.

The Indians are now drafting the way we ALL wanted them to for years, and YOU want credit when they finally do??? For what???

Defending your heretic bible, BA, you say that their "process" remains the same. True. They talk to scouts. They don't go to games. They sit in front of monitors & transcribe & interpret what scouts say.

Contrast PG. They run showcases during which they see virtually every top end HS player in the country. They watch them in games, drills practice, they time them, they measure them, they KNOW these guys.

Last thing; If your screeching rants are not intended for "95%" of the posters on this board, avail yourself of the PM function & communicate with the 5% that are your targets. Then the rest of us wouldn't "get stuck seeing it".
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:04 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
dnosco wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...


I know that. The point is that I am not pointing this out for you or for 95% of the posters on this board, even though you get stuck seeing it. I think you get what I mean. And I didn't particuarly like Garcia (close to if not a AAAA guy), but I didn't like giving him away giving his performance and potential (see Kearns this year). And I had Gardner at 39 in my list, so we weren't that far apart, really.

What are you "pointing out"?

Repeating from an earlier post, who among the many obviously intelligent posters on this board(or others I've read & posted on) have ever advocated picking topped out, cheap, low upside guys in the draft???

These are the guys that you seem to be posting against, so who are they??? C'mon, name them.

The Indians are now drafting the way we ALL wanted them to for years, and YOU want credit when they finally do??? For what???

Defending your heretic bible, BA, you say that their "process" remains the same. True. They talk to scouts. They don't go to games. They sit in front of monitors & transcribe & interpret what scouts say.

Contrast PG. They run showcases during which they see virtually every top end HS player in the country. They watch them in games, drills practice, they time them, they measure them, they KNOW these guys.

Last thing; If your screeching rants are not intended for "95%" of the posters on this board, avail yourself of the PM function & communicate with the 5% that are your targets. Then the rest of us wouldn't "get stuck seeing it".


Agreed 100%.

"Your" draft strategy Dennis, is one that all of us want to see. And you can conclude that from all of the comments in this thread. I don't see how you can bask in this one, since nobody argued it wasn't the right way to go. But if it makes you feel any better, hats off to you for pointing out the obvious.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby theshow » Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:02 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
Agreed 100%.

"Your" draft strategy Dennis, is one that all of us want to see. And you can conclude that from all of the comments in this thread. I don't see how you can bask in this one, since nobody argued it wasn't the right way to go. But if it makes you feel any better, hats off to you for pointing out the obvious.


Exactly!!!!

Your theory on drafting isn't groundbreaking Dennis. Any fan would love to see their team pick the best player available with every single pick, and spend far and away the most money in the draft to sign them. Duh. When a person comes onto the board and says I want us to draft only cheap college players who will never make the major leagues, then you can go on your rant about how we should take more expensive players with a higher upside.

Everyone is tired of you making points which are obvious.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:39 pm

Of the 27 signed picks how many would typically be wth the organization the following year? Three years? Just started following the minors closely and was curious how long teams usually hold on to these later picks that dont really show any signs of a future.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:02 pm

Some info just for fun:

The Tribe signed 17 of the position players that they drafted. They seemed to target the smaller, quicker guys. Somebody upthread said that they drafted a track team :s_rofl

They averaged 5'11" & 182lbs.

For a frame of reference I averaged the All-Time starting OF from my boyhood: Aaron, Mays, & Mantle averaged 5'11" & 182lbs.

Don't sound too small now, do they? Tony Wolters is almost exactly the same size as Willie Mays.

The team picture for the draft should be funny because the back row would be almost exclusively pitchers. They averaged 6'3" & 210lbs.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:21 pm

Rocky55 wrote:
dnosco wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...


I know that. The point is that I am not pointing this out for you or for 95% of the posters on this board, even though you get stuck seeing it. I think you get what I mean. And I didn't particuarly like Garcia (close to if not a AAAA guy), but I didn't like giving him away giving his performance and potential (see Kearns this year). And I had Gardner at 39 in my list, so we weren't that far apart, really.

What are you "pointing out"?

Repeating from an earlier post, who among the many obviously intelligent posters on this board(or others I've read & posted on) have ever advocated picking topped out, cheap, low upside guys in the draft???

These are the guys that you seem to be posting against, so who are they??? C'mon, name them.

The Indians are now drafting the way we ALL wanted them to for years, and YOU want credit when they finally do??? For what???

Defending your heretic bible, BA, you say that their "process" remains the same. True. They talk to scouts. They don't go to games. They sit in front of monitors & transcribe & interpret what scouts say.

Contrast PG. They run showcases during which they see virtually every top end HS player in the country. They watch them in games, drills practice, they time them, they measure them, they KNOW these guys.

Last thing; If your screeching rants are not intended for "95%" of the posters on this board, avail yourself of the PM function & communicate with the 5% that are your targets. Then the rest of us wouldn't "get stuck seeing it".


How many people here said that the draft was the best way to get talent when you are a small market club? How many people here have said that the International FA market was overpriced? How many people here said that signing questionable, high-priced free agents doesn't work for the Indians? Really, there are any? Certainly not the people who supported the Wood signing. How many were there?

Show me quotes by people here saying that we should spend $10 million or more on the draft every year because there was always talent out there. Show me quotes by people saying they should draft quality, hard signs in later rounds and then fork out the money to sign them.

Basically, you're using the silent majority thing here. Those people don't exist, but you have been "saying it" for years. Not really, unless you have been mumbling it or saying it on different boards.

Mirabelli was quoted as saying exactly what I said. Show me people who agreed with me when I said that, let alone were saying it themselves. There are a few, but not the usual suspects around here.

No one said to draft bad college kids...except you...so don't try to pin that crap on me.

Regarding PG and BA, you have no clue. NONE. Neither do I. I think anyone who buys a ticket can watch these things. And BA goes and talks to scouts who attend these showcases. They get all the same information that PG has. As I said, let's compare draft prospect lists over the past 5 years and see who was right. Don't give me this PG is better than BA crap because you don't know. Show me some evidence of that. Prove it to me because I have heard a lot of smack talked but nothing to back it up. One thing PG does do that BA doesn't do: run their business to make a profit off of kids, parents, college coaches and maybe pro teams. Yeah, BA makes a profit on their content, too, but preying on kids trying to get scholarships and pro contracts is not how their business is run.
Last edited by dnosco on Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:07 am

dnosco wrote:
Rocky55 wrote:
dnosco wrote:
martyinnewyork wrote:Dennis- I don't mind you saying negative things about the Indians, everyone knows there's plenty to criticize, especially these past couple of years. What I mind is that you are so full of yourself that you twist everything to make yourself look so incredibly intelligent. You make your good points, you make your bad points... just like the rest of us. For example, I had Joe Gardner in my top 30 this year, but I don't mention it every 5 minutes. I also liked Karim Garcia. 'Nuff said...


I know that. The point is that I am not pointing this out for you or for 95% of the posters on this board, even though you get stuck seeing it. I think you get what I mean. And I didn't particuarly like Garcia (close to if not a AAAA guy), but I didn't like giving him away giving his performance and potential (see Kearns this year). And I had Gardner at 39 in my list, so we weren't that far apart, really.

What are you "pointing out"?

Repeating from an earlier post, who among the many obviously intelligent posters on this board(or others I've read & posted on) have ever advocated picking topped out, cheap, low upside guys in the draft???

These are the guys that you seem to be posting against, so who are they??? C'mon, name them.

The Indians are now drafting the way we ALL wanted them to for years, and YOU want credit when they finally do??? For what???

Defending your heretic bible, BA, you say that their "process" remains the same. True. They talk to scouts. They don't go to games. They sit in front of monitors & transcribe & interpret what scouts say.

Contrast PG. They run showcases during which they see virtually every top end HS player in the country. They watch them in games, drills practice, they time them, they measure them, they KNOW these guys.

Last thing; If your screeching rants are not intended for "95%" of the posters on this board, avail yourself of the PM function & communicate with the 5% that are your targets. Then the rest of us wouldn't "get stuck seeing it".


How many people here said that the draft was the best way to get talent when you are a small market club? How many people here have said that the International FA market was overpriced? How many people here said that signing questionable, high-priced free agents doesn't work for the Indians? Really, there are any? Certainly not the people who supported the Wood signing. How many were there?

Show me quotes by people here saying that we should spend $10 million or more on the draft. Show me quotes by people saying they should draft quality, hard signs in later rounds and then fork out the money to sign them.

Basically, you're using the silent majority thing here. Those people don't exist, but you have been "saying it" for years. Not really, unless you have been mumbling it or saying it on different boards.

Mirabelli was quoted as saying exactly what I said. Show me people who agreed with me when I said that. There are a few, but not the usual suspects around here.

No one said to pick topped out players, that's a ridiculous comment. But how many people have suggested a strategy that involved picking a lot of high end prospects throughout the draft and then signing them? If you can find them, point them out.

Be pissed because Mirabelli said exactly what I have been saying all year and last year. I can understand that. But don't say anyone else has been saying it, because they haven't. I'm the only one.

:s_rofl

The wonderful, wonderful thing about Dennis is he's the only one.

The ONLY truly original thing about the draft that you've ever posted had to do with drafting Adenhart when he was injured. I thought that was quite incisive. The Aviles signing is the progression of that idea. That's it pal.

If you expect me or these other guys to whip out our bona-fides to play this STUPID little game of "I said it first" you're going to have to deal with the frustration. Truth be told, the guys that you advocate drafting usually suck. Probably because you don't go to games, you don't watch players, you read & memeorize stats & try to sound informed. No wonder you like BA.

Now, believe it or not, other than you're childish bragadoccio, I mostly like reading your stuff. I tend to like fellow Tribe fans & excuse most crazy behavior as rightful frustration. So don't be such an a-hole that people want you to go suck someplace else. Defy your history. Evolve. Don't get banned again.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:18 am

I'm the only one


Sure did not take long for the self-proclaimed messiah to shovel his shit upon us again. Somewhere along the line, Dennis came to the conclusion that belittleing others and hyping yourself is the only way he could get recognized. He probably added crying like a little baby and throwing tantrums like a petulant child to his reportoire. Then he hit upon the fact that he can distort his position and successes and scream his rilghteous from every hill and dale so that he can say others attack him. Does it seem chickenshit to the rest of the bloggers on this site as it does to me. Strictly a coward! No big balls! No manhood at all! He is a guy who gets what he wants by being a sissy and tells evryone how wonderful he is! Big brainpan Nosco passing his brilliance for lesser beings from his mountaintop. Does it make all you poor ignorant Indians fans grateful for his leadership? I know I feel blessed! :lol:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:44 am

The wonderful, wonderful thing about Dennis is he's the only one.

The ONLY truly original thing about the draft that you've ever posted had to do with drafting Adenhart when he was injured. I thought that was quite incisive. The Aviles signing is the progression of that idea. That's it pal.

If you expect me or these other guys to whip out our bona-fides to play this STUPID little game of "I said it first" you're going to have to deal with the frustration. Truth be told, the guys that you advocate drafting usually suck. Probably because you don't go to games, you don't watch players, you read & memeorize stats & try to sound informed. No wonder you like BA.

Now, believe it or not, other than you're childish bragadoccio, I mostly like reading your stuff. I tend to like fellow Tribe fans & excuse most crazy behavior as rightful frustration. So don't be such an a-hole that people want you to go suck someplace else. Defy your history. Evolve. Don't get banned again.


Prove it or stop talking about it as if it happened.

And, as far as BA is concerned, you have no clue. None. Just blowing smoke. You haven't done any research and you have no idea if BA is any good. Hell, you probably like these one-trick ponies who you think, as individuals, know more than BA, as an organization does.

As I said, get off your butt and prove something because, until you do, don't try to call anyone else wrong because, again, you have no clue.

Oh, one more point: In case you missed it, it was decided long ago on many boards that a fan going out to see a player one or two times is pretty much worthless. If it was valuable, businesses like PG couldn't suck money out of people for their service.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:57 am

Ugh.

I gots nothing to add.

Other than BA has little if any presence at the games, whereas PG definitely does. BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.

Anyway, carry on.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:18 am

dnosco wrote:
The wonderful, wonderful thing about Dennis is he's the only one.

The ONLY truly original thing about the draft that you've ever posted had to do with drafting Adenhart when he was injured. I thought that was quite incisive. The Aviles signing is the progression of that idea. That's it pal.

If you expect me or these other guys to whip out our bona-fides to play this STUPID little game of "I said it first" you're going to have to deal with the frustration. Truth be told, the guys that you advocate drafting usually suck. Probably because you don't go to games, you don't watch players, you read & memeorize stats & try to sound informed. No wonder you like BA.

Now, believe it or not, other than you're childish bragadoccio, I mostly like reading your stuff. I tend to like fellow Tribe fans & excuse most crazy behavior as rightful frustration. So don't be such an a-hole that people want you to go suck someplace else. Defy your history. Evolve. Don't get banned again.


Prove it or stop talking about it as if it happened.

And, as far as BA is concerned, you have no clue. None. Just blowing smoke. You haven't done any research and you have no idea if BA is any good. Hell, you probably like these one-trick ponies who you think, as individuals, know more than BA, as an organization does.

As I said, get off your butt and prove something because, until you do, don't try to call anyone else wrong because, again, you have no clue.

Oh, one more point: In case you missed it, it was decided long ago on many boards that a fan going out to see a player one or two times is pretty much worthless. If it was valuable, businesses like PG couldn't suck money out of people for their service.

You are so LAME. "It was decided long ago..." That kinda justifies/legitimatizes your never actually seeing players, doesn't it?

Prove something? Past Greatest Draft Hits from Denny(I'm the Ony One!) Nosco: Connor Jackson, Conor Gillaspie(he likes the name Connor), Lance Lynn, Jeremy Slayden. All high upside HS guys..oh wait...Remember the millenia long bitchfests about drafting Snyder, about ruining JD Martin by making him throw the FB, about Cord(overdraft) Phelps??? When it comes to the draft or evaluating talent you're like a 40 yr. old player in AA ball. You know, like the kind of guys you like to draft.

You can get your glass of milk & your jelly doughnut & pore over the draft threads in the IPI archives & Swerbs archives if they still exist & comp everyone else's picks vs your own. If they don't exist in Swerbs you'll have to conveniently forget that I've posted game/scouting reports on tons of college players including Lincecum, Mayberry, Joba, Reynolds, Coughlin, Head, Zimmerman, Wheeler(HS), Tate(HS), Mummey, LaPorta, Taylor, Iorg, Dyson, Pomeranz, Gutierrez, Castro, Braun, Phelps, Alvarez, Smoak, Beckham, Posey, Wallace, Buck, White, Drew, Weeks, Alonso, Pennington, Havens, Holaday, Price, Weiters, Moskos, Schmidt, Kunz, Kulbacki, Adkins, Miller, Bard, Humber/Neiman/Townsend, JoshRod, Sowers, Mitchell...I could go on.

I've seen virtually every good SEC & ACC player for the past 7 years at least. I've seen tons from the Texas schools, the PAC Ten schools, & lots from Nebraska, Oklahoma, Mizzou, even UCF when I lived in Fla.

I've told people before: It's easy to tell the best players when you see them play. Try it some time. Become un-skewed.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:51 am

Rocky55 wrote:
dnosco wrote:
The wonderful, wonderful thing about Dennis is he's the only one.

The ONLY truly original thing about the draft that you've ever posted had to do with drafting Adenhart when he was injured. I thought that was quite incisive. The Aviles signing is the progression of that idea. That's it pal.

If you expect me or these other guys to whip out our bona-fides to play this STUPID little game of "I said it first" you're going to have to deal with the frustration. Truth be told, the guys that you advocate drafting usually suck. Probably because you don't go to games, you don't watch players, you read & memeorize stats & try to sound informed. No wonder you like BA.

Now, believe it or not, other than you're childish bragadoccio, I mostly like reading your stuff. I tend to like fellow Tribe fans & excuse most crazy behavior as rightful frustration. So don't be such an a-hole that people want you to go suck someplace else. Defy your history. Evolve. Don't get banned again.


Prove it or stop talking about it as if it happened.

And, as far as BA is concerned, you have no clue. None. Just blowing smoke. You haven't done any research and you have no idea if BA is any good. Hell, you probably like these one-trick ponies who you think, as individuals, know more than BA, as an organization does.

As I said, get off your butt and prove something because, until you do, don't try to call anyone else wrong because, again, you have no clue.

Oh, one more point: In case you missed it, it was decided long ago on many boards that a fan going out to see a player one or two times is pretty much worthless. If it was valuable, businesses like PG couldn't suck money out of people for their service.

You are so LAME. "It was decided long ago..." That kinda justifies/legitimatizes your never actually seeing players, doesn't it?

Prove something? Past Greatest Draft Hits from Denny(I'm the Ony One!) Nosco: Connor Jackson, Conor Gillaspie(he likes the name Connor), Lance Lynn, Jeremy Slayden. All high upside HS guys..oh wait...Remember the millenia long bitchfests about drafting Snyder, about ruining JD Martin by making him throw the FB, about Cord(overdraft) Phelps??? When it comes to the draft or evaluating talent you're like a 40 yr. old player in AA ball. You know, like the kind of guys you like to draft.

You can get your glass of milk & your jelly doughnut & pore over the draft threads in the IPI archives & Swerbs archives if they still exist & comp everyone else's picks vs your own. If they don't exist in Swerbs you'll have to conveniently forget that I've posted game/scouting reports on tons of college players including Lincecum, Mayberry, Joba, Reynolds, Coughlin, Head, Zimmerman, Wheeler(HS), Tate(HS), Mummey, LaPorta, Taylor, Iorg, Dyson, Pomeranz, Gutierrez, Castro, Braun, Phelps, Alvarez, Smoak, Beckham, Posey, Wallace, Buck, White, Drew, Weeks, Alonso, Pennington, Havens, Holaday, Price, Weiters, Moskos, Schmidt, Kunz, Kulbacki, Adkins, Miller, Bard, Humber/Neiman/Townsend, JoshRod, Sowers, Mitchell...I could go on.

I've seen virtually every good SEC & ACC player for the past 7 years at least. I've seen tons from the Texas schools, the PAC Ten schools, & lots from Nebraska, Oklahoma, Mizzou, even UCF when I lived in Fla.

I've told people before: It's easy to tell the best players when you see them play. Try it some time. Become un-skewed.

Be careful Rocky! He is going to start sobbing like a little baby if you mention facts! Don't want to get the site wet with Dennis' blubbering! :good:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:52 am

BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby daingean » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:03 am

WRT the BA vs. PG arguement. PG holds two of the biggest tournaments in Youth baseball per age group each year (BCS and WWBA). PG also holds their own showcase events (to participate in these it costs around $550 per player). If players don't play in any PG event, I don't think PG will have a scouting report on the player. Now most players will end up playing in the BCS and/or WWBA, I am not sure how many will attend a PG showcase event.

If you want to ask specific questions for the PG staff, there is one guy that posts in the forums on hsbaseballweb.com. He readily responds to most (if not all posts). With any organizations there are those that are critical of PG (mostly on cost).
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:38 am

Dennis, just look at the 2010 draft thread as some of us are discussing draft strategy the first couple of pages. Seems like we all agree.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:51 am

Lloyd Christmas wrote:
BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?


Correct, which is why both are valuable in their own right. The only one saying otherwise was Dennis.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:37 am

Consigliere wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:
BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?


Correct, which is why both are valuable in their own right. The only one saying otherwise was Dennis.


I'm too lazy to look so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall at least 2 or 3 others on this thread implying that BA was pretty much garbage, which, as we all know is going to cause Dennis' nostrils to flare, just a bit. So, I don't think it's "only" Dennis.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:44 am

TitoFrancona wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:
BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?


Correct, which is why both are valuable in their own right. The only one saying otherwise was Dennis.


I'm too lazy to look so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall at least 2 or 3 others on this thread implying that BA was pretty much garbage, which, as we all know is going to cause Dennis' nostrils to flare, just a bit. So, I don't think it's "only" Dennis.


Tito beat me to it.

1. I NEVER said BA was the only source. In fact, in your post above I said just the opposite, that they all have value.

2. A number of others said BA sucks and, at various times, said PG, Law, Goldstein and others are better than BA.

And you wonder why I get mad when lies like this a propogated. :s_sad
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:05 pm

I agree that Dennis isn't the only one to instigate this discussion.

For me, like I said before, BA has a pretty good draft coverage. I just like PG better in that regard and I like Goldstein more for overall prospect news. Perhaps BA isn't as good as it once was, but to say they suck is a bit too much imo.

To each his own I guess.

Btw, we're now slotted for the 5th pick in next year's draft. Does anyone think we'll finish higher than that? I just hope we don't end up drafting 7th, because that would drop you down a spot due to Arizona's compensation pick. My guess is we'll finish around 4th-6th.
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Postby dnosco » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:17 pm

Prove something? Past Greatest Draft Hits from Denny(I'm the Ony One!) Nosco: Connor Jackson, Conor Gillaspie(he likes the name Connor), Lance Lynn, Jeremy Slayden. All high upside HS guys..oh wait...Remember the millenia long bitchfests about drafting Snyder, about ruining JD Martin by making him throw the FB, about Cord(overdraft) Phelps??? When it comes to the draft or evaluating talent you're like a 40 yr. old player in AA ball. You know, like the kind of guys you like to draft.


First, same question: Provide evidence that you or others have said the things I have been saying recently and over the years. You haven't done it. Next you will be saying "I know it is that way because I just know things." Can't wait.

It was Brad Snyder vs Connor Jackson. Oh, wait, Connor Jackson is still in the majors and Snyder, who was a clear overdraft, is out of baseball. BTW, at the time of the draft it was thought that Jackson could possibly stay at 3B, making him even more valuable. Only about a year or two after the draft was it determined he couldn't. Revisionist history. Perfect. Oh, and remember the backpedaling when I commented on Snyder's massive strikeout numbers in his first season in the NY-P. How you and others told me it didn't mean ANYTHING. Obviously it did.

Slayden is an interesting one. can't remember all the details but I think I remember who was he supposed be drafted instead of. Do you remember? Oh yeah, I think it was Javi Herrera. You remember, the lowly ranked COLLEGE catcher who couldn't hit OR throw in college and had a hurt arm when he was drafted but the Indians still drafted and he never made it out of AA ball and only that far because he was a catcher. You got me. Herrera was a much better choice as he had much higher upside than a guy who played CF in college and had great power. BTW, I was REALLY upset the Indians went with a low upside guy at that pick instead of taking more risk.

Regarding Cord Phelps, I have already admitted I underestimated him. But show me ANY of your so-called experts who predicted this? The best I have read is "solid pick" and that was only after the fact by a publication that ranked him as like the 80th best player in the state of California, not in the entire draft. I am not going to point out the flaws in his game which looked like assets last year. Look at the stats, I am sure you can find them. But he IS a good prospect and he has performed even with moving extremely fast.

Cole Gillaspie instead of Chisenhall. Got me on that one because Chisenhall kept his nose clean. The Indians took the gamble and were correct. Note also that I always said the guy could hit, just that he couldn't stay at SS and his bat wouldn't play well at 3B. All that remains to be seen, doesn't it. Gillaspie is also sucking it up but don't make it like Gillaspie was a bad pick. BTW, regarding Lance Lynn, he was drafted in the supplemental round and is already in AAA, although he now is looking like he might turn into a Jeremy Sowers...who, BTW, was drafted BY the Indians.

Regarding HS upside guys, I have touted many during my writing on the draft and always want upside guys, though not always in the first round. However, I was really high on the 2001 draft class and all those HS righthanders. Didn't work out well but I have never been against it. As a matter of fact you conveniently omit that Jake Odorizzi and the lefthanded HS pitcher from Florida (forget his name right now) were also on my list along with Gillespie and Lynn that year. I think all those 4 guys were gone by the end of the supplemental round. Again, not drafted by me, drafted by ML teams. So stop making it out that (a) I want to pick low upside guys and (b) I am picking guys who are not well thought of. Both are not true.

Regarding JD Martin, I stick by my opinion that he should have been allowed to suceed and then, when he experienced failure, then make the adjustments. The Indians went the other way and, at his first opportunity, he jumped to another organization. Make out of that what you want. But it is a fact.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:25 pm

Dennis, just look at the 2010 draft thread. Everyone was in agreement about using an aggressive draft strategy and taking the best player available. And numerous people have said that building through the draft is one of the few ways, if not the only way, to be competitive. You know other people have said this, so stop pretending to be the only one.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:35 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:
BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?


Correct, which is why both are valuable in their own right. The only one saying otherwise was Dennis.


I'm too lazy to look so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall at least 2 or 3 others on this thread implying that BA was pretty much garbage, which, as we all know is going to cause Dennis' nostrils to flare, just a bit. So, I don't think it's "only" Dennis.


Again, BA uses scouts and does not go to games, which Dennis was the only one saying otherwise. That's what I was responding to.

Again both have their own value. BA hardly sees any of these guys play, but talk to many who do. PG does see these guys play and uses all their own info. Again, both are useful in their own right.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TitoFrancona » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:29 pm

Consigliere wrote: Again, BA uses scouts and does not go to games, which Dennis was the only one saying otherwise. That's what I was responding to.

Again both have their own value. BA hardly sees any of these guys play, but talk to many who do. PG does see these guys play and uses all their own info. Again, both are useful in their own right.


You get no argument from me, I just don't see how it's fair to single Dennis out as the "only" one who had anything bad to say about one pub vs the other. I definitely recall that at least a couple dissed BA on this very thread. And as I said, everyone knew Dennis wasn't going to let that slide by.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:37 pm

TitoFrancona wrote:
Consigliere wrote: Again, BA uses scouts and does not go to games, which Dennis was the only one saying otherwise. That's what I was responding to.

Again both have their own value. BA hardly sees any of these guys play, but talk to many who do. PG does see these guys play and uses all their own info. Again, both are useful in their own right.


You get no argument from me, I just don't see how it's fair to single Dennis out as the "only" one who had anything bad to say about one pub vs the other. I definitely recall that at least a couple dissed BA on this very thread. And as I said, everyone knew Dennis wasn't going to let that slide by.


Tito, you're begging for more drama. I'll be the first to admit I was critical of BA. However, I did mention that it is still useful for some purposes. Here's the difference, Dennis bashed EVERYONE who said ANYTHING critical of BA like BA was above and beyond all other publishers. For God sakes, he called us all idiots for it.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:40 pm

Consigliere wrote:
TitoFrancona wrote:
Consigliere wrote:
Lloyd Christmas wrote:
BA relies on info from scouts that they pass along, whereas PG gets their own info firsthand from their own scout crew and report accordingly. This is fact.


Not sure which one I would trust more. The consensus of multiple MLB team scouts seems like a decent opinion. Also, BA openly admits this and is anyone actually claiming otherwise?


Correct, which is why both are valuable in their own right. The only one saying otherwise was Dennis.


I'm too lazy to look so correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall at least 2 or 3 others on this thread implying that BA was pretty much garbage, which, as we all know is going to cause Dennis' nostrils to flare, just a bit. So, I don't think it's "only" Dennis.


Again, BA uses scouts and does not go to games, which Dennis was the only one saying otherwise. That's what I was responding to.

Again both have their own value. BA hardly sees any of these guys play, but talk to many who do. PG does see these guys play and uses all their own info. Again, both are useful in their own right.


I e-mailed Jim Callis about it today. Here is the e-mail exchange:

Question: Jim, 0n the forum I am on at Indiansprospectinsider the prevailing opinion is that the staff at BA doesn't attend games and showcases, just getting their information from talking to scouts. Is that true? I was under the impression from stuff I read and from talking to Chris Kline when he was there that your reporters went to college games and HS showcases, at least. Has that changed?

Answer: We attend plenty of games. I probably attend fewer than anyone because I'm outside of Chicago, but I'd bet at least one member and maybe more of our Durham-based staff is at a minor league game almost every day. (There are a number of leagues within easy driving distance.) Our college reporters go to a number of games and tournaments and we have three guys who between them cover most of the showcases. We also talk to a number of scouts as well.

In addition, to what I knew was true (see above) I NEVER, EVER, EVER said that PG and other sources were not valuable, saying, in fact, in response to your post above that all sources have value.

So, I never said that BA was the only valuable source. I said I VALUE BA and that it was ridiculous to say that they sucked.

As is so typical around here, information without fact or backup becomes truth because certain people say it is. You don't know how much this irritates me to have to defend to the hilt something I know is true while others, without evidence, just MAKE UP blanket statements (substituted BS for blanket statements, if you wish) that they expect to have passed off as truth.

So, before ripping on a publication with the history that BA has, at least ask a question to someone who knows.

I am not going to comment on the quality of the information and rankings PG has. I imagine it is pretty good although bloodsucking organizations like them ($550 per kid to attend one of their events) leave a bad taste in my mouth and I wouldn't spend a penny getting their rankings to support them. Regarding their rankings, I still would like to have a side-by-side comparison of their draft rankings with BA's.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:53 pm

dnosco wrote:As is so typical around here, information without fact or backup becomes truth because certain people say it is. You don't know how much this irritates me to have to defend to the hilt something I know is true while others, without evidence, just MAKE UP blanket statements (substituted BS for blanket statements, if you wish) that they expect to have passed off as truth.


Care to elaborate on that, because I don't see a lot of that happening here really. Maybe you can give us some examples (aside from the BA stuff)?

I'd give you the PG rankings, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post them here since it's subscription material.

EDIT: Here's a link. I think it's free since I can access it without signing in. It's a top 300, last update on June 7th.
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