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2010 Draft Signing Thread

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:45 pm

I think the 2011 compensation gets overrated a bit. It's a safety net, but it generally means you end up with a lesser pick because you lose leverage, so it becomes a must sign situation.

Overspending IS necessary. We can argue about where to draw the line or what amount certain draftees should've gotten, but not overspending on the draft means ending up with lesser talent.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby buck84 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:49 pm

Upper Box Woodchuck wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:MLB has announced that Barrett Loux will become a free agent on Sept 1st and be free to sign with any MLB team.

Interesting


WTF? How does this work? :search:


I'm still trying to figure it out, seems like something to do with failing his physical. Here's some links I'm working through:

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/17/16276 ... free-agent

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/08/b ... gency.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5471067



I think what happened is that SD did not like his physical. Unlike when Texas took Dickey years ago, SD gets a compensation pick if they do not sign him. So the player and his advisor think that he has a grievance against the new system since SD has no incentive negotiate. So major league baseball, SD, the players union, and the player all agree to allow him to be a free agent. SD still gets its compensation pick. The player is not harmed since he gets to negotiate with all teams. MLB and the union get to keep the current system in place. Seems like a pretty good solution actually.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:56 pm

Seems like a pretty good arguement for pre-draft physicals to me.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:08 pm

buck84 wrote:
Upper Box Woodchuck wrote:
GoTribe028 wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:MLB has announced that Barrett Loux will become a free agent on Sept 1st and be free to sign with any MLB team.

Interesting


WTF? How does this work? :search:


I'm still trying to figure it out, seems like something to do with failing his physical. Here's some links I'm working through:

http://www.sbnation.com/2010/8/17/16276 ... free-agent

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/08/b ... gency.html

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5471067



I think what happened is that SD did not like his physical. Unlike when Texas took Dickey years ago, SD gets a compensation pick if they do not sign him. So the player and his advisor think that he has a grievance against the new system since SD has no incentive negotiate. So major league baseball, SD, the players union, and the player all agree to allow him to be a free agent. SD still gets its compensation pick. The player is not harmed since he gets to negotiate with all teams. MLB and the union get to keep the current system in place. Seems like a pretty good solution actually.


I think you mean Arizona.

Pre-draft physicals should be mandatory imo (as well as drug testing, just to be sure).
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:42 pm

JP_Frost wrote:Imagine if we offered Wolters $800K and he turned it down.

Did we overpay for a couple of guys? Absolutely, but let's be happy they did damnit! All this whining about how much every player should've gotten. Point is that we had a very strong draft and have a new influx of talent. Rejoice people!


Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:47 pm

Seems a lot of arguing just for the sake of arguing...

Anyone care to argue?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:51 pm

Sorry it took so long to add my 2 cents, but like many others am extremely pleased with this draft. The tribe went big and hopefully guys like Washington and Blair (the "other" guys) can produce, and if they can this draft is a knockout.
Gotta think that the brass realizing that their ML plate being pretty bare of any tradeable vets and a crew of youngins at the helm, turnover might be an issue. Good to see that they have filled their system with good young talent through trades and this years draft in particular. Hopefully with it comes a slew or even one ( of course I want more...)championship in 2-3 years or so...


Overpaying????? Really are people saying such things????? can't you guys be happy, one day the FO and Dolan are cheap bastards and the next day they are throwing money down the drain?? Do you realize how many potentially awesome players they "over spent" on??? Good grief.... Excellent drafts come with a price tag and I think the tribe paid fair market value period.....One more.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:05 pm

Consigliere wrote: Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.

Again, I'm happy they've signed and are in the system, but it does matter how much money is spent on these guys. Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:08 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
Consigliere wrote: Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.

Again, I'm happy they've signed and are in the system, but it does matter how much money is spent on these guys. Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".


I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, but at this point, you're just complaining to complain, and it's getting old real fast. Even Dennis (love ya, buddy!) hasn't complained one bit and he's usually the one to do so.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:11 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.


But that's not true. They would have just reallocated it to other players in this year's draft. Is why they were talking to guys like Trey Griffin and the like yesterday, whereas if talks broke down with Washington/Wolters/Lavisky, they would go on to Plan B with them and sign them. The money was budgeted and they planned to spend it. So, in the end, I would rather they sign the higher end guys than get a couple late guys signed (quantity vs quality) approach.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby criznit2009 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:11 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Consigliere wrote: Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.

Again, I'm happy they've signed and are in the system, but it does matter how much money is spent on these guys. Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".


I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, but at this point, you're just complaining to complain, and it's getting old real fast. Even Dennis (love ya, buddy!) hasn't complained one bit and he's usually the one to do so.


If you offered me Lavisky and Wolters for 2.3 mil and a 3rd round comp pick.... I do it and I think every team in MLB makes that deal. That is if you could trade draft picks.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby OhioBaseball » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:16 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Consigliere wrote: Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.

Again, I'm happy they've signed and are in the system, but it does matter how much money is spent on these guys. Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".


I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, but at this point, you're just complaining to complain, and it's getting old real fast. Even Dennis (love ya, buddy!) hasn't complained one bit and he's usually the one to do so.


Sorry for pushing this topic. I've got a background in economics and finance, so I often focus on that stuff. I wrote my thesis on an econometric investigation of the major league baseball draft years ago. It's a topic I'm quite interested in. Sorry, please understand my enthusiasm on the topic. Please excuse me if I've pushed it too far.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:18 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
OhioBaseball wrote:
Consigliere wrote: Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


"What does it matter?" That's a naive statement. Sorry, but it's true.

If the Indians didn't offer what those prospects were worth, true they wouldn't have signed. However, the Indians would also have $2.3 million in their pockets as well as a 3rd round compensation pick. People are acting as if $2.3 million and a 3rd round 2011 compensation pick have no value.

Again, I'm happy they've signed and are in the system, but it does matter how much money is spent on these guys. Look up the definition of "opportunity cost".


I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, but at this point, you're just complaining to complain, and it's getting old real fast. Even Dennis (love ya, buddy!) hasn't complained one bit and he's usually the one to do so.


Sorry for pushing this topic. I've got a background in economics and finance, so I often focus on that stuff. I wrote my thesis on an econometric investigation of the major league baseball draft years ago. It's a topic I'm quite interested in. Sorry, please understand my enthusiasm on the topic. Please excuse me if I've pushed it too far.


Nah, it's no problem. No reason to apologize. Not like you were buckeye something or other that was around here on draft day. It's refreshing to get different perspectives. But, I think we all should be happy with the haul that we got. Like previous posts have stated, fans complain when the Dolans don't spend money, and now that they have, there's still some issue. Not really sure where the middle ground is Nevertheless, don't worry about it. No hard feelings.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:23 pm

OhioBaseball wrote:Sorry for pushing this topic. I've got a background in economics and finance, so I often focus on that stuff. I wrote my thesis on an econometric investigation of the major league baseball draft years ago. It's a topic I'm quite interested in. Sorry, please understand my enthusiasm on the topic. Please excuse me if I've pushed it too far.


Absolutely no problem, and you are entitled to it. I think the others are being a little too hard on you anyway. :drinks:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby hoof32 » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:42 pm

My take (case anyone cares) is that it's a case of ORGANIZATIONAL PRIORITIES. As everyone reading here knows, the Indians are 'all in' on going very young, and gathering a large number of quality prospects. The bonuses, development, and risks are the price they pay.

It seems to me that the White Sox were much more active in the free agent market this year than the Tribe was; hey, good for them. I've seen enough Keith Hernandez type signings, and several of the Sox 2010 FA signings were extremely questionable (I wouldn't have done any of them).

But, at first blush, it looks like the Indians invested 10 million into the 2010 draft signings, compared with White Sox $5 million (very rough figures).

I can't argue with the Indians plan. Think they're doing this right. Just wish there was a tad more progress on the field. Impatient.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:45 pm

Consigliere wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Imagine if we offered Wolters $800K and he turned it down.

Did we overpay for a couple of guys? Absolutely, but let's be happy they did damnit! All this whining about how much every player should've gotten. Point is that we had a very strong draft and have a new influx of talent. Rejoice people!


Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:


Thank you. I think what is a good point, however, is what happens if you had a mirror to Wolters who was close to as good but would have accepted less. Scouts know this stuff. Because we signed so many of these guys I think it is lost on us that, at least as I see it, we really didn't have any contingency guys. We intended to sign them all. The only strategy thing I could even remotely think to do even differently is have some contingency picks with comparable talents in the later rounds. That way you know you are on slot and, if necessary, let Wolters walk and sign his contingency guy. Since we didn't plan for that situation, you sign Wolters and take the talent with the high price tage.

Again, the BEST INDIANS DRAFT EVER because we signed the guys and not at our figures, at the figures that would get them signed. If we go on what we think they are worth, we are left doing the Tim Lincecum dance.

One thing I will say: it is on the scouting department if these guys crash and burn early like Mike Conroy did. We need to get something out of these signings and, based on the quality of the guys, we need to get some big ML talent out of this draft.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby nubballguy » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:09 am

Hey Guys, just want to add my thanks to Tony et al for the great draft coverage all the way through.

I was curious about Andrew Triggs, didn't hear anything about him after the draft. Any of you guys know anything about what happened with him through the process?

Thanks
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:02 am

Let me echo that sentiment. Thanks Tony and everyone else for the coverage and commentary. This has rekindled my lifelong love of the Tribe.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby petes999 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:45 am

At PG, they have the top 25 round bonuses for many players. In analyzing the data (assuming $75,000 for players without bonuses available - lower college signings), Indians were in the top 5 of spending. Of course, Nationals were first with $12.2 million (more if you add in Harper's salary) with Indians at $9.1 (slightly off due to not having exact figures or signings after round 25). Pirates had $11.8 and Red Sox at $10.7. Lowest were Brewers and Twins with $2.7 and $3.4 million each. White Sox had $4.4 million and Detroit with $7.5 million.

Just FYI ...
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:08 am

petes999 wrote:At PG, they have the top 25 round bonuses for many players. In analyzing the data (assuming $75,000 for players without bonuses available - lower college signings), Indians were in the top 5 of spending. Of course, Nationals were first with $12.2 million (more if you add in Harper's salary) with Indians at $9.1 (slightly off due to not having exact figures or signings after round 25). Pirates had $11.8 and Red Sox at $10.7. Lowest were Brewers and Twins with $2.7 and $3.4 million each. White Sox had $4.4 million and Detroit with $7.5 million.

Just FYI ...


Indians final number was around $9.3M. Top 5-7 for sure.

And thanks everyone for the kind comments....couldn't do it without the help of everyone else here too. Kudos to all.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby toledobuck » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:12 am

I have seen confliting reports on whether HS OF Mark Brown from Detroit was signed or not. He is not shown to have signed on the BA draft database but that does not mean anything. Can anybody confirm?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:15 am

Last night Mirabelli said the Tribe signed 27 of 50, so that would seem to include Brown, wouldn't it? I sure hope so; he is exactly the sort of signed I like.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:34 pm

dnosco wrote:First, just responding in kind, not being the "worst" at it. Stop the lies.

Second, why even try to have a discussion with you? It's pointless, so please stop.

Third, once again: you draft the best guys. You sign them in almost every case (obviously Washington at $3 million or even Wolters at $2 million are cases where you have to think seriously about signing them). Yeah, you spend over worth and over slot a lot of times but you get quality. That's why I don't want one of the top 3 picks. I don't want to pay $5 million plus for one guy. BTW, Boston shows every year that there is quality in the later rounds.

This is exactly the philosophy I have been proposing for years and years and even showed back in 2008 how we drafted close to the fewest top prospects and many less than the Red Sox that year. We CAN compete with the Red Sox in this area and it is the only aread where we can be competitive, because we are not competing against other teams, just against some hypothetical mean value. As long as you don't draft any egomaniacs who are represented by egomaniacs, you probably can sign most of the guys you draft. We could have been having drafts like this since back in 1995. Drafting like this plus sustaining your farm system with GOOD veteran-for-prospect trades is the way to go. Invest in Latin America as we have been, maybe pump up the scouting some to develop good relationships with families but, for the most part, build through the draft.



Wow you are stupid.

How can I stop you from having a conversation with me? If you don't want to converse with me that is on YOU to stop, not me. good grief man. :rolleyes:

If you're going to try and give advice, try taking it yourself.


I disagree we can compete every year with the Red Sox in a draft. Even this year shows to an extent why we can't. They're able to take gambles on players to get those comp picks for free agents (ie, Wagner). Then are able to take big chances on guys like Raunado. No way if the Tribe has that pick do they risk that, simply don't have the resources to throw that kind of money at a pick that and still then pay out for our lower picks.

This draft just further proved why there needs to be some sort of draft cap in place.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Upper Box Woodchuck » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:36 pm

+1 on both the big props to Tony for his coverage of the mess that is signing MLB Draft Picks and to Hermie's comment's re: the necessity of a draftee salary cap of some kind.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:38 pm

toledobuck wrote:I have seen confliting reports on whether HS OF Mark Brown from Detroit was signed or not. He is not shown to have signed on the BA draft database but that does not mean anything. Can anybody confirm?


Yes, he signed.

As I noted earlier, he signed over the weekend and is in Arizona. The Indians media staff completed missed the signing and did not make note of it to the media, so it never was released properly to beat writers. Also, BA may have missed it because of this, though assume they get their info from an MLB database for signings.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:40 pm

Consigliere wrote:
JP_Frost wrote:Imagine if we offered Wolters $800K and he turned it down.

Did we overpay for a couple of guys? Absolutely, but let's be happy they did damnit! All this whining about how much every player should've gotten. Point is that we had a very strong draft and have a new influx of talent. Rejoice people!


Thank you.

Holy shit, I can't believe anyone is complaining what we spent on anyone. What does it matter? Bottom line, we signed the guy. Had we offered what Lavisky and Wolters were "worth" in a signing bonus, we would be without a 3rd and 8th rounder signing with us today. :cry:



The only way I would be upset with the Lavisky and Wolters bonuses is if it causes us to spend less next year. I'm assuming this is not the case (though we went from a pretty big year for us in 2008 to a "cheap" year in 2009)......


We definitely overspent on both.....but yeah, we needed a young catcher and we need SS's in the worst way (will say Wolters is SS for life for now) so don't think it was a bad overspendature and mostly glad we did it. :drinks:
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby JP_Frost » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:50 pm

I don't see how this year's draft budget has anything to do with next year. My guess is, and hopefully Tony can shed some light on this, that they construct the 2011 draft budget somewhere at the end of the season when they know which pick the team ends up with. They probably adjust to any free agents leaving/coming if that means losing/getting draft compensation, as well as in-season deals which provide salary relief (though that's not as likely to happen next year). If the Indians continue this trend then we should see similar draft strategies the coming years, not only because it's good for the organization, but it also creates a lot of goodwill amongst fans, industry insiders and agents.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:00 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I don't see how this year's draft budget has anything to do with next year. My guess is, and hopefully Tony can shed some light on this, that they construct the 2011 draft budget somewhere at the end of the season when they know which pick the team ends up with. They probably adjust to any free agents leaving/coming if that means losing/getting draft compensation, as well as in-season deals which provide salary relief (though that's not as likely to happen next year). If the Indians continue this trend then we should see similar draft strategies the coming years, not only because it's good for the organization, but it also creates a lot of goodwill amongst fans, industry insiders and agents.


I agree it shouldn't....but in 2009 we were drafting a whole half round higher in each round yet spent about half as much.

I'm assuming (or maybe hoping) that it was more based on the draft as you said.....but not sure the ML payroll played a part (though it was higher)....unless Tony's comments on them being separate entities are slightly off?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:06 pm

JP_Frost wrote:I don't see how this year's draft budget has anything to do with next year. My guess is, and hopefully Tony can shed some light on this, that they construct the 2011 draft budget somewhere at the end of the season when they know which pick the team ends up with. They probably adjust to any free agents leaving/coming if that means losing/getting draft compensation, as well as in-season deals which provide salary relief (though that's not as likely to happen next year). If the Indians continue this trend then we should see similar draft strategies the coming years, not only because it's good for the organization, but it also creates a lot of goodwill amongst fans, industry insiders and agents.


Correct, the budget for the 2011 draft will be determined in Oct/Nov, like it is every year. Money saved one year or money overspent one year does not affect the next year's draft. That said, I have no idea on what their plans for the next draft will be as far as being aggressive like this year, but I do know they understand that this is the only way to really do it now with the unfair setup of MLB.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby danh8 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:17 pm

Mark Brown waqs signed, and is already in Arizona, or on his way if not there.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:05 pm

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/baseball/n ... 81810&vm=r

MLB DRAFT: 10 BIGGEST SURPRISES

Cole Cook signing with Indians: The last two years haven’t been kind to coach Steve Rodriguez and Pepperdine. Besides struggling on the field, the Waves also have had some draft surprises not go their way. Cook was that surprise this summer. The draft-eligible sophomore right-handed pitcher was a fifth-round pick to the Indians and was thought to be headed back to college for several weeks. The Indians, though, came through and signed him with a $299,000 signing bonus. Cook had a good sophomore campaign and might’ve thought he couldn’t improve his stock next summer. However, he will be a junior in the ’11 draft and would’ve had the same leverage. Cook had a chance at more money even in a deeper draft.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
dnosco wrote:First, just responding in kind, not being the "worst" at it. Stop the lies.

Second, why even try to have a discussion with you? It's pointless, so please stop.

Third, once again: you draft the best guys. You sign them in almost every case (obviously Washington at $3 million or even Wolters at $2 million are cases where you have to think seriously about signing them). Yeah, you spend over worth and over slot a lot of times but you get quality. That's why I don't want one of the top 3 picks. I don't want to pay $5 million plus for one guy. BTW, Boston shows every year that there is quality in the later rounds.

This is exactly the philosophy I have been proposing for years and years and even showed back in 2008 how we drafted close to the fewest top prospects and many less than the Red Sox that year. We CAN compete with the Red Sox in this area and it is the only aread where we can be competitive, because we are not competing against other teams, just against some hypothetical mean value. As long as you don't draft any egomaniacs who are represented by egomaniacs, you probably can sign most of the guys you draft. We could have been having drafts like this since back in 1995. Drafting like this plus sustaining your farm system with GOOD veteran-for-prospect trades is the way to go. Invest in Latin America as we have been, maybe pump up the scouting some to develop good relationships with families but, for the most part, build through the draft.



Wow you are stupid.

How can I stop you from having a conversation with me? If you don't want to converse with me that is on YOU to stop, not me. good grief man. :rolleyes:

If you're going to try and give advice, try taking it yourself.


I disagree we can compete every year with the Red Sox in a draft. Even this year shows to an extent why we can't. They're able to take gambles on players to get those comp picks for free agents (ie, Wagner). Then are able to take big chances on guys like Raunado. No way if the Tribe has that pick do they risk that, simply don't have the resources to throw that kind of money at a pick that and still then pay out for our lower picks.

This draft just further proved why there needs to be some sort of draft cap in place.

I agree with Hermie that we can't compete on an equal basis with the big money clubs, including the Bosux, in the draft. They have extra picks every year, because they lose Type A FA's every year. They lose Type A FA's every year because they have the money to sign them in the first place. We don't, and we trade the best guys before they become FA's, so we'll have to chug along with one pick per round in most years.

I'm not sure how a draft cap would help. It wouldn't get us any extra picks or take any away from the Sux, et al, unless they did away with FA compensation. A hard cap would lower the bonuses, I assume, which might lose us some picks. Fewer guys would fall due to perceived high bonus demands.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby TonyIBI » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:10 pm

MattM wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:MLB has announced that Barrett Loux will become a free agent on Sept 1st and be free to sign with any MLB team.

Interesting


"Get that kid on the phone" (in Lou Brown's voice)


Indians have what I am told "moderate" interest. All comes down to the medical, something they and other teams who are kicking the tires on him will need to thoroughly review before offering any kind of contract.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Lloyd Christmas » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:55 pm

In the Baseball America podcast today Jim Callis talked about how much he loved the Indians draft for about 5 minutes.
Talks Indians a little past halfway. Mentions top 5 picks, Aviles, Lavisky, Holt, Goodnight, Dischler, Petter.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/media/podcasts/
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:13 pm

I agree that we can't compete on an equal basis with the big money clubs, including the Bosux, in the draft. They have extra picks every year, because they lose Type A FA's every year. They lose Type A FA's every year because they have the money to sign them in the first place. We don't, and we trade the best guys before they become FA's, so we'll have to chug along with one pick per round in most years.

I'm not sure how a draft cap would help. It wouldn't get us any extra picks or take any away from the Sux, et al, unless they did away with FA compensation. A hard cap would lower the bonuses, I assume, which might lose us some picks. Fewer guys would fall due to perceived high bonus demands.


We can compete with the Red Sox if we want to. That is obvious. You budget for and spend the money. Just look at how many top 4 round talents slide every year. Look how many we signed this year. And you don't need extra picks. You just pick the guys and sign them. $10 million every year is NOT out of the question. You can probably get 10-12 top 4 round talents for that money. Could the Red Sox sign more than that? Sure, but they don't, for whatever reason.

I don't subscribe to the 'poor me, life isn't fair' scenario in baseball. Until this year people have been saying we couldn't draft that many top prospects and now, as I have been saying for years, we did it and signed them. We can do it every year because, in fact, it is a sustainable model and one that will keep your ML payroll down and allow you to be continuously competitive if you scouting and player development remains strong.

I think a cap WOULD help, under the correct conditions which I described before. It would have to be done in such a way as I have described where you sign up to a limit and then the other players go back in a pool to be drafted again. I don't know if it is feasible but I described it in detail above. I have already defined how it would work there. For example, it would actually HURT a team that had extra early picks, at least in terms of depth. They might be able to sign quality prospects but less of them as they burn more of their money on early round picks and don't have as much left for the kind of guys we drafted late. Just an example.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dnosco » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:15 pm

Lloyd Christmas wrote:In the Baseball America podcast today Jim Callis talked about how much he loved the Indians draft for about 5 minutes.
Talks Indians a little past halfway. Mentions top 5 picks, Aviles, Lavisky, Holt, Goodnight, Dischler, Petter.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/media/podcasts/


What's not to like? We drafted a bunch of guys in BA's top 200. Petter is interesting though. Where was he ranked in his state and approximately where did that put him in the consensus ranking.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:24 pm

who the hell is Petter?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:59 pm

As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby A.Zajac » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:02 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:14 pm

A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby Rocky55 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:48 pm

dnosco wrote:
I agree that we can't compete on an equal basis with the big money clubs, including the Bosux, in the draft. They have extra picks every year, because they lose Type A FA's every year. They lose Type A FA's every year because they have the money to sign them in the first place. We don't, and we trade the best guys before they become FA's, so we'll have to chug along with one pick per round in most years.

I'm not sure how a draft cap would help. It wouldn't get us any extra picks or take any away from the Sux, et al, unless they did away with FA compensation. A hard cap would lower the bonuses, I assume, which might lose us some picks. Fewer guys would fall due to perceived high bonus demands.



We can compete with the Red Sox if we want to. That is obvious. You budget for and spend the money. Just look at how many top 4 round talents slide every year. Look how many we signed this year. And you don't need extra picks. You just pick the guys and sign them. $10 million every year is NOT out of the question. You can probably get 10-12 top 4 round talents for that money. Could the Red Sox sign more than that? Sure, but they don't, for whatever reason.

I don't subscribe to the 'poor me, life isn't fair' scenario in baseball. Until this year people have been saying we couldn't draft that many top prospects and now, as I have been saying for years, we did it and signed them. We can do it every year because, in fact, it is a sustainable model and one that will keep your ML payroll down and allow you to be continuously competitive if you scouting and player development remains strong.

I think a cap WOULD help, under the correct conditions which I described before. It would have to be done in such a way as I have described where you sign up to a limit and then the other players go back in a pool to be drafted again. I don't know if it is feasible but I described it in detail above. I have already defined how it would work there. For example, it would actually HURT a team that had extra early picks, at least in terms of depth. They might be able to sign quality prospects but less of them as they burn more of their money on early round picks and don't have as much left for the kind of guys we drafted late. Just an example.

We can't compete EQUALLY with the big money teams who follow the Sux model to acquire extra draft picks. Because they would have extra picks...more picks...meaning we would have less...which is not equal.

The team drafted excellently this year because they followed MY model of picking the best, highest upside guys available...doesn't this sound pretentious? We've ALL been begging for this for years. I don't remember anyone ever advocating drafting boring, low upside guys.

To the inkslinger: PG kicks BA's collective asses when it comes to the draft.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby elrod enchilada » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:41 pm

OK, we get it, BA sucks.

That being said, Callis may be getting his information from people who know what they are talking about. It is interesting that he woudl highlight Dischler and Petter. Don't know much about them.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:26 pm

I repeat... who the hell is Petter?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:28 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:I repeat... who the hell is Petter?


LHP Kyle Petter - 34th rounder
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:29 pm

Petter has been pitching in Arizona out of the pen since signing.

He has a 2.37ERA in 10 games - 19IP, 17H, 4BB, 22K
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby martyinnewyork » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:45 pm

Thanks Daz... is Petter a legit guy? Another guy who lasted late due to signability issues?
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby dazindiansfanuk » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:52 pm

martyinnewyork wrote:Thanks Daz... is Petter a legit guy? Another guy who lasted late due to signability issues?


I know nothing about him but, based on the fact he's already made 10 appearances, I can't imagine he was a tough sign.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby indians1 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:58 pm

we all know they spent more money on this draft because of the money they saved from the victor and lee deals of last year.

i really think the indians should shy away from signing players into their 30's because they have failed miserably at identifying guys that were worth that investment.

kerry wood, hafner, westbrook have killed the organization with their contracts.

i have no problem with the indians signing guys to 4-5 year deals like they did in the 90's , but then you have to spend money in the draft so that you have guys to replace them in a few years.

it may not be popular, but it is what needs to be done to compete year after year.
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby stoike » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:47 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.



I rarely disagree with you, but you are way off base on this one. Just plain WRONG, actually, if you are talking about the 2008 Tribe draft. The 2008 draft had some swings-and-misses, but also has some obvious hits. There is no conceivable way that the 2008 draft can be considered one of the worst even of the decade. It is actually one of the better. Sadly.....
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Re: 2010 Draft Signing Thread

Postby jellis » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:51 pm

stoike wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
A.Zajac wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:As usual, I think that getting hyped up over what BA says is pretty silly, especially Jim Callis who is a journalist without any background in the sport other than writing about it for his college paper. Dennis says that I don't "research" like he does and that is the truest thing I can recall him posting. Never read PG even though I paid for the subscription but it does not take more that a cursory glance to lead me to the conclusion that PG is far better at rating the prospects than BA. I would be interested to know how the posters who worked on the 2010 draft felt about it.


BA has progressively gotten worse and worse, IMO. A few years back, I felt they were top notch, knew their stuff, trusted their stuff. Present day, I take their evaluations with a grain of salt. I think they've really gone down hill in terms of their quality, as well as accuracy. They still can provide some nice insight, don't get me wrong. PG I felt was ahead of BA this year, at least with the draft.

I don't think they can get any worse than the 2008 draft. At least, they are obliquely owning up to some of their more egregious mistakes in that draft.



I rarely disagree with you, but you are way off base on this one. Just plain WRONG, actually, if you are talking about the 2008 Tribe draft. The 2008 draft had some swings-and-misses, but also has some obvious hits. There is no conceivable way that the 2008 draft can be considered one of the worst even of the decade. It is actually one of the better. Sadly.....

I think he means more in terms of BA coverage then the Indians draft
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