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Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:35 pm

Herm, even if the Indians win, the fans will not come out for a winner. An annual attendance shift to 2.3-2.5 million only puts them 17th-20th in all of baseball for total attendance. For a winner. See the 2007 team....they finished 22nd in attendance yet had the best record in baseball with the Red Sox.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:25 pm

Consigliere wrote:Herm, even if the Indians win, the fans will not come out for a winner. An annual attendance shift to 2.3-2.5 million only puts them 17th-20th in all of baseball for total attendance. For a winner. See the 2007 team....they finished 22nd in attendance yet had the best record in baseball with the Red Sox.


I agree if anything even if we did won we might be even lower in attendance thanks o the economy, I wonder if Cleveland can really support 3 teams its been an issue people have mentioned before, but there is always a team that gets the shaft and the Indians haven't been bringing people to the park for almost a decade.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:11 pm

jellis wrote:
Consigliere wrote:Herm, even if the Indians win, the fans will not come out for a winner. An annual attendance shift to 2.3-2.5 million only puts them 17th-20th in all of baseball for total attendance. For a winner. See the 2007 team....they finished 22nd in attendance yet had the best record in baseball with the Red Sox.


I agree if anything even if we did won we might be even lower in attendance thanks o the economy, I wonder if Cleveland can really support 3 teams its been an issue people have mentioned before, but there is always a team that gets the shaft and the Indians haven't been bringing people to the park for almost a decade.

I'm not piling on Hermie! It isn't just the other teams or the economy. Without quoting statistics, Cleveland's potential fan base has probably declined close to 20% since the sellout era. The Browns will always be supported because Cleveland, as the rest of Ohio, is football first, no matter how shitty they are. LeBron brings the fans in but he will likely follow CC to NY in the near future. In the meantime, the economy will move west and many of the fan base will follow for jobs. Personally, I think Dolan made an economic mistake when he extended his lease and moved his AAA to Columbus but I am really glad he did. I don't know how to say this without going on one of my rants but I believe the A-roid situation will hurt attendance more in Cleveland and similar cities than it will in NY. NY fans and the Yankees have no conscience. They care about winning and are not concerned how. I spend many nights in our favorite 3rd Ave. sports bar. Mostly we argue soccer but lately there is much baseball talk and my criticism of the "Junkees" is not widely appreciated. I have to stop myself!!! :s_omg
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:03 am

Consigliere wrote:Herm, even if the Indians win, the fans will not come out for a winner. An annual attendance shift to 2.3-2.5 million only puts them 17th-20th in all of baseball for total attendance. For a winner. See the 2007 team....they finished 22nd in attendance yet had the best record in baseball with the Red Sox.


I never said we'd be a top team in attendance. But look at the 2007 team and attendance....we won and attendance went up over 200K that year....so yes, fans do come out MORE for a winner......now you an argue that we don't come out enough for a winner......

Economic times are VERY bad.....but if gas prices stay down, fans will still come.....not like the glory days, but more than last year......IF they win of course.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby cardiackidz » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:34 pm

ive been saying it for years, that cleveland browns fans are the dumbest in sports. hell in sept 2007, i called greg brinda up and said it on wknr. the browns fans will go see those losers every year and not go see a contender up the street. the attendance numbers in 07 were pathetic.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:10 am

cardiackidz wrote:ive been saying it for years, that cleveland browns fans are the dumbest in sports. hell in sept 2007, i called greg brinda up and said it on wknr. the browns fans will go see those losers every year and not go see a contender up the street. the attendance numbers in 07 were pathetic.


There's 8 Browns regular season games......81 Indians games.......

You have way more chances to go to an Indians game than a Browns game.

I also don't think it's the Browns that are really hurting the Indians that much.....it's the Cavs. Thanks to the NBA and their most idiotic playoff schedule...the Cavs will likely play into June this year again. For the first 3 months many fans will be too drawn into what the Cavs are doing than what the Indians are doing.....which hurts a lot.


Now don't get me wrong here....I love LeBron and want him to stick around after 2010......but if he were to leave......it'd be the best thing to happen in the Indians in a long time.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby cardiackidz » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:27 am

browns tickets are more pricey, and the average person is only going to buy season tickets for one of those teams. if you look back to sept 2007 they were going to the browns games and not going to the indians games. that sept i came into town for a wekend series against the royals and the jake was barely over half full. if the indians in the last 10 years had lost at the rate the browns have the jake would be empty. thats why i continue to say the browns fans are the dumbest in pro sports. that is by far one of the top 3 worst ran franchices in any pro sport.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:17 pm

lol, I love how fans showing up when a team loses makes them 'dumb'.....but if they don't show up when their team loses they're called fair weather fans.....

That makes zero sense. So Browns fans are dumb for liking football more than baseball? good grief

Cleveland is a FOOTBALL TOWN. That will never change.


And I can definitely think of more than 3 pro franchises that are run worse than the Browns.


And I guarantee you didn't go to an Indians game in September of 2007 where the stadium was half empty....the Indians only had 1 game where the attendance was below 30,000 that September (one game was 28,825). They averaged over 35,000 fans that September and sold out 4 games out of 11 (not counting the 1 'home' game played in Seattle).


2007 is a year that pretty much proves my point actually.

April: the average attendance was only 18,577 (not counting the 3 games played in Milwaukee). Indians had bad weather and were coming off a Very disappointing year.

May: the average attendance was 25,832. The Tribe showed some signs of greatness and were 14 games over .500 at the end of the month.

June: The average attendance was 26,317. The Tribe continued to play well at the outstart but then boring Interleague Play took it's tool and the Tribe struggled some here. Still a slight increase helped by a sellout of a Tigers game (the Friday game)...when the teams were 1-2 in the standings.

July: The average attendance rose up to 31,137 despite some struggles.....mostly thanks to the Cavs being done with their run to the Eastern Conference Finals.

August: The average attendance again rose up to 32,883. Getting Kenny Lofton at the deadline brought in some old fans despite the team falling out of first place and hitting like a little league team. A callup of Cabrera turned things around though and got us on a nice streak to close out the month in first place.

September: The average attendance rose for the 6th straight month up to 35,970, with a few sellouts mixed in and the Tribe clinching the AL Central at home the last game of the year (great game by the way).


So AGAIN, if the Tribe wins, they see 'better' attendance numbers (not saying good or great, but better). Tribe had some nice season tickets sales heading into the 2008 season then.....but an slow start coupled by injuries (and then trades as a result) killed all of that. The Tribe can have a repeat of 2007 if they come out strong and win.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Duane Kuiper » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:02 pm

When season ticket sales for 2009 are dramatically down (just my opinion) it will be hard for them to make 2 mil, even with a contender. Having those season tickets sold for for the crappy weather games helps.

I'll bet you that attendance in 2009 will be less than 2008.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:51 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:When season ticket sales for 2009 are dramatically down (just my opinion) it will be hard for them to make 2 mil, even with a contender. Having those season tickets sold for for the crappy weather games helps.

I'll bet you that attendance in 2009 will be less than 2008.


If the Tribe wins 90 games, I'll take that bet.



Back to the 'Depth Chart' issue of the thread.....

I noticed that Tony listed Matt McBride as an OFer only and talked about him only playing OF.....is he 'totally' done behind the plate then for good? Or will the Tribe use him for like 10-15 games there perhaps to keep him more versatile?

Seems like a bit of a waste to not play him at all behind the plate, unless they're so worried about his health back there.

I think once McBride gets bumped up to Akron he'd make a good catching partner with Santana. Santana is gonna work on his catching skills a lot this year....but he still can't catch everyday. And when he's not catching, makes sense to leave his bat in the lineup since that is his best attribute right now. Let McBride could catch on Santana's 'days off' and Santana could either take McBride's OF spot or play 3B.

I think it'd be smart for the Tribe to keep Santana familar with both OF and 3B (even if for only 10-15 total games all year). If he does become the next great catcher hitting catcher for the Tribe, it'd be nice for him to already be familar with another position that he could play when taking a day off from catching, ala what Victor does with 1B. And it'd be a lot nicer if that other position wasn't just 1B where we're pretty stacked in the system.

Just a thought though.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:56 pm

I am real glad that I did not have to do this list. As Tony pointed out, it gets real tough in A ball. Here is a few of my obsevations, most of which involve the 2008 draft class. I am going out on a limb and questioning the placement of two players I have not seen. I don't question Tony's logic about the Tice placement but I question if he is really ready to play at A+ either offensively or defensively. No, I don't know who should be there. I think Fedroff must have a higher ceiling than any of Tony's projected Kinston OF. Why he would need time in LC to show this doesn't make sense to me.

Now, for players I have seen. De La is clearly #1 at Kinston. IMHO, Putnam and Stowell are 2/3. Nothing is wrong with Tony's choices or logic. I happen to believe that both are superior in terms of current talent and upside to the other four and it is a shame that choices have to be made about the seven but I think it would be a mistake to hold Putnam and Stowell back. I accept what Tony says about Chisenhall's placement but that does not make sense to me either. Chisenhall's bat is far more advanced than Tice. He is at least the defensive equal. He has nobody in front of him either. Maybe an early promotion is the goal but I have to wonder about this placement too.

I stand by my earlier projection that House will find his way to LC before the season is too far advanced. It is posssible Haley will wind up there as well but I think he will need more time on mechanics. I would be cautious with him just because his projection is so high. After viewing the video on him, I think Clayton Cook is another chance to reach LC this year. I know he is real young but his mechanics and deception are advanced. I just do not understand why he got so little press but it looks to me that this is the Indians' gain.

These are just some thoughts I have on the depth chart as ST approaches. I know there are no easy answers when the system depth is as good as it is. I still haven't reconciled what to do with McBride in my own mind. You can tell the Tribe has a plan but it may be a bailout.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:08 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:I am real glad that I did not have to do this list. As Tony pointed out, it gets real tough in A ball. Here is a few of my obsevations, most of which involve the 2008 draft class. I am going out on a limb and questioning the placement of two players I have not seen. I don't question Tony's logic about the Tice placement but I question if he is really ready to play at A+ either offensively or defensively. No, I don't know who should be there. I think Fedroff must have a higher ceiling than any of Tony's projected Kinston OF. Why he would need time in LC to show this doesn't make sense to me.

Now, for players I have seen. De La is clearly #1 at Kinston. IMHO, Putnam and Stowell are 2/3. Nothing is wrong with Tony's choices or logic. I happen to believe that both are superior in terms of current talent and upside to the other four and it is a shame that choices have to be made about the seven but I think it would be a mistake to hold Putnam and Stowell back. I accept what Tony says about Chisenhall's placement but that does not make sense to me either. Chisenhall's bat is far more advanced than Tice. He is at least the defensive equal. He has nobody in front of him either. Maybe an early promotion is the goal but I have to wonder about this placement too.

I stand by my earlier projection that House will find his way to LC before the season is too far advanced. It is posssible Haley will wind up there as well but I think he will need more time on mechanics. I would be cautious with him just because his projection is so high. After viewing the video on him, I think Clayton Cook is another chance to reach LC this year. I know he is real young but his mechanics and deception are advanced. I just do not understand why he got so little press but it looks to me that this is the Indians' gain.

These are just some thoughts I have on the depth chart as ST approaches. I know there are no easy answers when the system depth is as good as it is. I still haven't reconciled what to do with McBride in my own mind. You can tell the Tribe has a plan but it may be a bailout.


I think it may actually be a good tihnk to at least start him at Lake County. Travis Fryman had nothing but great things to say about him and it seems he worked well with Chisenhall on his defense at SS. The team may want Chisenhall to work more with Fryman at Lake County to start the year to see if anything can be improved at SS.

I do fully expect him to make the jump up to Kinston and possibly even see time at Akron in 2009.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:55 pm

You guys do recall that the Indians are very conservative by nature with pushing their prospects, right? :s_airkiss

Anyway, first off, the plan right now is McBride will be a full time outfielder per our radio discussion with him a few weeks back. He did say he would likely catch some bullpens here and there to keep the catching skills, but that as of now he will likely just be playing outfield in games this year. Most of this is to save the wear and tear on his throwing shoulder. As always, things are subject to change.

As for the player placement IndiansInker brought up....yeah, I struggled a ton on the placement of the Kinston and Lake County guys. Just so much depth at the lower levels and it is very hard to decipher who goes where, but this is my best guess based on the Indians previous track record with how they handle guys and also on some things people in the org have said the past few months.

I stuggled a lot with the placement of Putnam and Stowell....had them in Kinston at first, but then assuming De La is the #1 there and Putnam/Stowell are #2/#3 what do you do with mahalic, Morris, Berger and Miller? The reason I have Berger up there instead of Putnam/Stowell is primarily because Berger already pitched half a season last year and performed well...plus is an advanced college pitcher. Stowell didn't pitch an inning in the Indians system and Putnam has some development as a pitcher. Both are likely to open in Lake County with the idea they could be fast movers to Kinston based on performance and how people ahead of them do. Mahalic, Morris and Miller all earned a shot to pitch at Kinston and have upside, so you can't go yanking them out of the rotation now either or holding them back in Lake County for another year.

Tice is an older college player, and I am using the Josh Rodriguez model with him where both played a full season in Mahoning valley and were okay but jumped to Kinston the next year because a hotshot prospect was in Lake County (Rivero in 07, Abreu in 09) that sort of pushed them up a level. There is nothing from Lake County at 3b last year that is worthy of being the everyday Kinston 3b in 2009.....so Tice was the best fit. Fedroff I had in Kinston and took him out the last minute as i just think he did not get enough time in MV which will allow them to push him up two levels and Mcbride's placement in the outfield ultimately pushed Fedroff back in my mind. I'm not sold on Pena in Kinston, but think he is merely a placeholder until Fedroff proves himself early in the year in LC or hell has a great spring. Although Atkins in the past has said spring performance almost never has a bearing on where guys go as it is predetermined when camp opens for the most part. The only determinations are for those final roster spots and who gets cut.

As for Chisenhall, unless something changes dramatically, the Indians themselves said he is going to take the traditional approach in the system of going to each level. He will not skip Lake County. They want to see him play meaningful amount of games at LC and then Kinston and then assess him from there. He is likely going to play at least half a season in LC. There is no way he gets to Akron, even if he tears it up. They practically have a system mandate that hitters get 500 ABs at Kinston before moving up. Atkins told me this back in the July 2007 when I asked why Hodges was not moved up to Akron even though he was hitting well and no one was blocking him. On rare occassion they make an exception, but they view the at bats and innings pitched at Kinston and Akron as vital. You have to mostly ignore performance and be sure they are ready for the next level. And let's not forget, Chisenhall is a good prospect and all, but he just turned 20 years old which would be even younger I believe than Rivero was last year.

So Chisenhall to start at Lake COunty seems pretty certain based on what they have said recently.....although I am more intrigued to see if they keep him at SS or move him to 3B. They seemed to be pretty impresse with his SS play so may leave him there this season. Dunno. Especially with Abreu likely to be at 3B, although there is some talk he could move to the OF this year. Still, wow, what a left side of the infield to start the season at LC if Abreu-Chisenhall are there.

Like I said....damn tough to make this projected depth chart and the opinions obviously will vary. Just best used as a guide and framework on how the full season teams shake out. If I get 60-75% of the Kinston/Lake Co roster right I'll be elated. :s_wacko
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:54 pm

[quote=
"Consigliere"]You guys do recall that the Indians are very conservative by nature with pushing their prospects, right? :s_airkiss

Anyway, first off, the plan right now is McBride will be a full time outfielder per our radio discussion with him a few weeks back. He did say he would likely catch some bullpens here and there to keep the catching skills, but that as of now he will likely just be playing outfield in games this year. Most of this is to save the wear and tear on his throwing shoulder. As always, things are subject to change.

As for the player placement IndiansInker brought up....yeah, I struggled a ton on the placement of the Kinston and Lake County guys. Just so much depth at the lower levels and it is very hard to decipher who goes where, but this is my best guess based on the Indians previous track record with how they handle guys and also on some things people in the org have said the past few months.

I stuggled a lot with the placement of Putnam and Stowell....had them in Kinston at first, but then assuming De La is the #1 there and Putnam/Stowell are #2/#3 what do you do with mahalic, Morris, Berger and Miller? The reason I have Berger up there instead of Putnam/Stowell is primarily because Berger already pitched half a season last year and performed well...plus is an advanced college pitcher. Stowell didn't pitch an inning in the Indians system and Putnam has some development as a pitcher. Both are likely to open in Lake County with the idea they could be fast movers to Kinston based on performance and how people ahead of them do. Mahalic, Morris and Miller all earned a shot to pitch at Kinston and have upside, so you can't go yanking them out of the rotation now either or holding them back in Lake County for another year.
Tice is an older college player, and I am using the Josh Rodriguez model with him where both played a full season in Mahoning valley and were okay but jumped to Kinston the next year because a hotshot prospect was in Lake County (Rivero in 07, Abreu in 09) that sort of pushed them up a level. There is nothing from Lake County at 3b last year that is worthy of being the everyday Kinston 3b in 2009.....so Tice was the best fit. Fedroff I had in Kinston and took him out the last minute as i just think he did not get enough time in MV which will allow them to push him up two levels and Mcbride's placement in the outfield ultimately pushed Fedroff back in my mind. I'm not sold on Pena in Kinston, but think he is merely a placeholder until Fedroff proves himself early in the year in LC or hell has a great spring. Although Atkins in the past has said spring performance almost never has a bearing on where guys go as it is predetermined when camp opens for the most part. The only determinations are for those final roster spots and who gets cut.

As for Chisenhall, unless something changes dramatically, the Indians themselves said he is going to take the traditional approach in the system of going to each level. He will not skip Lake County. They want to see him play meaningful amount of games at LC and then Kinston and then assess him from there. He is likely going to play at least half a season in LC. There is no way he gets to Akron, even if he tears it up. They practically have a system mandate that hitters get 500 ABs at Kinston before moving up. Atkins told me this back in the July 2007 when I asked why Hodges was not moved up to Akron even though he was hitting well and no one was blocking him. On rare occassion they make an exception, but they view the at bats and innings pitched at Kinston and Akron as vital. You have to mostly ignore performance and be sure they are ready for the next level. And let's not forget, Chisenhall is a good prospect and all, but he just turned 20 years old which would be even younger I believe than Rivero was last year.

So Chisenhall to start at Lake COunty seems pretty certain based on what they have said recently.....although I am more intrigued to see if they keep him at SS or move him to 3B. They seemed to be pretty impresse with his SS play so may leave him there this season. Dunno. Especially with Abreu likely to be at 3B, although there is some talk he could move to the OF this year. Still, wow, what a left side of the infield to start the season at LC if Abreu-Chisenhall are there.

Like I said....damn tough to make this projected depth chart and the opinions obviously will vary. Just best used as a guide and framework on how the full season teams shake out. If I get 60-75% of the Kinston/Lake Co roster right I'll be elated. :s_wacko[/quote]
I did not say I had answers. However, if pressed I would move Berger to LC and Morris to the pen and handle him like Tomlin. Is it fair? We both know that is not an issue. I said i appreciated the difficulty and i wasn't kidding. Not being critical. Just an opinion based on what I see of the seven. 75% might get you on Leno as the new Kreskin! :s_drinks
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:01 am

no, Chisenhall will actually be Older than Rivero was at the beginning of last year. Rivero didn't turn 20 til after the season started.....

Kinda sounds like they may treat Chisenhall like Peralta in regards to position. Stay at SS for the time being then when he gets to AAA move him to 3B or 2B while still playing some SS. Will depend a lot on who has the current jobs in the big leagues when he's ready I think. Tribe doesn't seem to put too much of a premium on defense, as long as guys can hit and field well enough, they can keep their positions.....

Where Rivero eventually ends up will have some bearing too.....


Also, when I said Akron I was talking more like Eastern League playoffs. Could see him getting the bump for that eventually, especially if the ML club is calling guys up for a playoff run....
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