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Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby lofgren09 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:58 pm

Tony. are the Indians not going to let Lofgren start anymore?
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby dnosco » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:33 pm

Depth charts are always a dicey proposition. Tony, as usual, does a great job. A couple of thoughts:

I am thinking that Chris Jones, if healthy, replaces TJ McFarland.

I also hope the Indians push Josh Rodriguez and let him start at AAA. Rather see him than more AAAA guys.

It will be interesting if both Stephen Head AND Chris Gimenez are on the bench at Buffalo. I don't see any other choice based on their 2008 production but it hurts when you have real prospects on your AAA bench and John Drennen and Mickey Hall listed as outfielders at AA.

I am thinking Eddie Burns makes the LC bullpen and Campfield does, too.

I really don't think Bo Greenwell is going to be at LC. He did just OK last year in the GCL so I think he goes to extended and Webb or Palinscar fill in. I think the latter is a sleeper we need to keep an eye on.

Until I started following the low minors I never realized how competitive it was just to be assigned to a full season team. Man, the pressure in ST must be intense.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:48 pm

I think you'll see Josh Rodriguez up in Columbus at some point during the year.....but it's probably better to start him at Akron. He did struggle a lot there. No sense in rushing him.


The Columbus bench (not Buffalo, but no worries on the slip up) is a bit interesting. Personally I don't consider Head a 'real' prospect. At best, he'll one day be a bench player at the ML level. Not saying Hall and Drennen are any better though.....but the Tribe may want to see Head get some AB's at the AAA level just to see how he handles it....plus see how he handles a bench role.

My guess is Torregas and Gimenez will pretty much split the catching duties. Torregas will get more starts likely....but Gimenez will get some playing time in the OF and 3B.

1B/DH is interesting as well. Aubrey and Brown won't get all the starts. There should be some at-bats there for either Head or Gimenez. It's gonna be a juggling act for sure, but that's not a bad thing really.


As far as Lofgren as a starter again.....I think that may be up to Lofgren himself. He needs to show he deserves to start again. If he can find his stuff in the pen, maybe he'll earn a rotation spot back....but right now, the pen is probably the best place for him....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:43 pm

Gimenez and Head are on the bench in Buffalo....but both will play a lot. Head is essentially the 4th OFer and will replace one of the others are least once a week, so that is 3 games there. He also will get 2 games in between 1B and DH when Aubrey and Brown sit a game. Gimenez and Toregas will share the catching duties, but GImenez will also be moved around the field some and get in at 3B, LF, or even 1B some....which could creep into Head's PT some. I am wondering if they'll keep Aubrey around....his removal would solve a lot of these problems.

Josh Rodriguez is going to play more 2B this year, and is all but certain to return to Akron at least to start the season. And Lofgren it looks like is going to the bullpen. Not written in stone, but with the arms coming up and all the depth in the rotation, I think they'll look to get him back on track in the pen.

And yes, projecting the Kinston and Lake COunty teams is very tough. The bullpen is incredibly hard to project. If I am right on half of them I'll be elated. Last year, it was certainly intense at the end of spring training in the Kinston/Lake County camps as there are so many players (about 125) fighting for what totals 50 spots among the two teams.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby MadThinker88 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:46 pm

You still did an outstanding job sifting through all the possibilities Tony.

Nice Job. :s_thumbsup
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:01 am

Consigliere wrote:Gimenez and Head are on the bench in Buffalo....but both will play a lot. Head is essentially the 4th OFer and will replace one of the others are least once a week, so that is 3 games there. He also will get 2 games in between 1B and DH when Aubrey and Brown sit a game. Gimenez and Toregas will share the catching duties, but GImenez will also be moved around the field some and get in at 3B, LF, or even 1B some....which could creep into Head's PT some. I am wondering if they'll keep Aubrey around....his removal would solve a lot of these problems.


Having too many bodies isn't really a problem though. Especially when it's Head and Gimenez losing out on playing time.....


Plus we're also assuming there's zero injuries with these depth charts.....and that LaPorta isn't promoted before the All-Star break....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby dnosco » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:16 pm

Interesting call on Aubrey, Tony. If what you have written is true there is really no light at the end of the tunnel for this guy and no miracle will happen as he is at his performance ceiling right now due to injuries.

It would stink, however, if they rid of him and let Whitney go (by not rostering him) and those guys just took off after they left the organization. I don't think anyone could realistically chaulk those things up, if they happened, to just bad luck. Rather, looking at their PT, it would more reasonably be due to them actually staying on the field enough to develop using their natural ability better within their post-injury limitations.

But I can see them trading Aubrey at the end of ST if the need arises. As you indicated, it sure would help with PT.

I do see any prospects who have made it to AAA on a pretty normal development path as true prospects and, that being said, them losing PT IS an issue to me. It's not like Gimenez and Head are Jason Cooper, after all. They are probably significantly better than that, IMO.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:41 pm

There's no doubt that injuries have really hurt Aubrey's development.....but I won't go as far to say they've absolutely ruined any chance he has at being a solid MLer.

Not that something like this happens often (not saying that), but the same was said about Ryan Ludwick. He had a key injury to his hip that many thought ruined his chances at a good career....he then bounced around several AAA and ML clubs (including the Indians), never getting a real shot at starting......til this past year when he landed in St. Louis......

He turned into the hitter scouts thought he'd be before that hip injury in 2002, which put a halt to his rising career.


Again, not saying this will happen with Aubrey, in fact it likely won't....but looking at the players who's at-bats he'll be 'taking' at Columbus (Head, Brown, Gimenez)......Aubrey has as good a chance (if not better) of having a decent career as any of them really.....


I also highly doubt Aubrey will get traded. No one claimed him on waivers this winter....and he still had an option so the team claiming him wouldn't of had to put him on the 25-man roster....just their 40-man. It's still possible.....maybe for a guy that's out of options (like a Niemann).....but that's it really....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby dnosco » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:21 pm

"but looking at the players who's at-bats he'll be 'taking' at Columbus (Head, Brown, Gimenez)......Aubrey has as good a chance (if not better) of having a decent career as any of them really....."

Well, for me, not EXACTLY the same chance...but close enough I don't do anything to eliminate him from the mix until at least the middle of the season.

Regarding trading him, you bring up a good example although, if Aubrey has a good spring and significantly enhances his value beyond what the Indians think it is, he could be part of a larger trade, as well.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:00 pm

Consigliere wrote:Gimenez and Head are on the bench in Buffalo....but both will play a lot. Head is essentially the 4th OFer and will replace one of the others are least once a week, so that is 3 games there. He also will get 2 games in between 1B and DH when Aubrey and Brown sit a game. Gimenez and Toregas will share the catching duties, but GImenez will also be moved around the field some and get in at 3B, LF, or even 1B some....which could creep into Head's PT some. I am wondering if they'll keep Aubrey around....his removal would solve a lot of these problems.

Josh Rodriguez is going to play more 2B this year, and is all but certain to return to Akron at least to start the season. And Lofgren it looks like is going to the bullpen. Not written in stone, but with the arms coming up and all the depth in the rotation, I think they'll look to get him back on track in the pen.

And yes, projecting the Kinston and Lake COunty teams is very tough. The bullpen is incredibly hard to project. If I am right on half of them I'll be elated. Last year, it was certainly intense at the end of spring training in the Kinston/Lake County camps as there are so many players (about 125) fighting for what totals 50 spots among the two teams.

I think Aubrey's trade value is nil. If he was worth anything, he would have been picked when he was removed from the 40. Once things settle down in Columbus I expect he will be released or traded for PTBNL. He is maxxed out. Both Head and Brown have a better chance, which is slim, than Aubrey.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:01 pm

Consigliere wrote:Gimenez and Head are on the bench in Buffalo....but both will play a lot. Head is essentially the 4th OFer and will replace one of the others are least once a week, so that is 3 games there. He also will get 2 games in between 1B and DH when Aubrey and Brown sit a game. Gimenez and Toregas will share the catching duties, but GImenez will also be moved around the field some and get in at 3B, LF, or even 1B some....which could creep into Head's PT some. I am wondering if they'll keep Aubrey around....his removal would solve a lot of these problems.

Josh Rodriguez is going to play more 2B this year, and is all but certain to return to Akron at least to start the season. And Lofgren it looks like is going to the bullpen. Not written in stone, but with the arms coming up and all the depth in the rotation, I think they'll look to get him back on track in the pen.

And yes, projecting the Kinston and Lake COunty teams is very tough. The bullpen is incredibly hard to project. If I am right on half of them I'll be elated. Last year, it was certainly intense at the end of spring training in the Kinston/Lake County camps as there are so many players (about 125) fighting for what totals 50 spots among the two teams.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:27 am

dnosco wrote:"but looking at the players who's at-bats he'll be 'taking' at Columbus (Head, Brown, Gimenez)......Aubrey has as good a chance (if not better) of having a decent career as any of them really....."

Well, for me, not EXACTLY the same chance...but close enough I don't do anything to eliminate him from the mix until at least the middle of the season.

Regarding trading him, you bring up a good example although, if Aubrey has a good spring and significantly enhances his value beyond what the Indians think it is, he could be part of a larger trade, as well.


why would ST effect a guy who is maxed out and has really shown hes a a fringe major league, if he was anything other than fringe a team like SD would have put on claim on him, because he would be a cheap bench bat. No player regains trade value just thanks to ST. Micheal Aubrey might end up being a poor mans Jeff manto. I think his best outcome is Jeff manto
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Chiefroy » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:49 am

I'm glad Aubrey is still around and hope he gets enough PT. I'm sure he's tired of giving it to other players. Maybe a second straight healthy year will boost his numbers a bit, if injuries haven't already crippled him too badly. Could be a nice PH bat to bring in on occasion. A good season with the bat and somebody may need him later on even if we don't. I wish him luck.

We signed former OF prospect George Lombard.

http://indians.scout.com/2/835741.html

I guess he gives us some outfield depth from a veteran and could mean we don't REALLY want to rush any of the kids if possible. I know absolutely nothing about him personally, but this 1998 interview gives the impression that he is at least an intelligent and high-character type who may be a good influence on the younger players:

http://www.sportsjones.com/lombard.htm
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:51 am

jellis wrote:why would ST effect a guy who is maxed out and has really shown hes a a fringe major league, if he was anything other than fringe a team like SD would have put on claim on him, because he would be a cheap bench bat. No player regains trade value just thanks to ST. Micheal Aubrey might end up being a poor mans Jeff manto. I think his best outcome is Jeff manto


Sorry...but it's a huge petpeeve of mine....it's 'Affect'....not 'Effect'.......

A strong spring can still boost his value some. Not gonna make is so that we can trade him straight up for a solid player though. I still think he can become a Ben Broussard type (better than Jeff Manto). He's better defensively at 1B and is a better natural hitter when he's actually on the field.

One reason a team may not have put a claim on him is they would've had to put him on the 40-man roster.....most teams are full at the moment there. After spring training injuries or cut players could open up spots. The Indians for example are maxed out...but on opening day will have at least 1 open spot after moving Westbrook to the 60-day DL and may have a 2nd if they cut ties with Marte....and a 3rd if Mujica doesn't win the last bullpen spot. Other teams will be in the same boat. They may have an injury to a 1B/DH or bench player even and then take a chance on Aubrey. Again, not saying you'll get much for him, as you won't.....but he's not dead yet.....still some life in that bat of his......

Also disagree that he's 'maxxed out'....I think he can still get better.....but that's a matter of opinion really......
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:33 am

You don't have to believe me, just look at Aubrey's video. The bat speed is gone. He used to have a terrific swing. Notice how his hands are late, especially on the slap hit to LF. He is a mere shadow of what he used to be and it is a real shame. I am not sure who had the worse luck, Aubrey or Bradley. If they had stayed healthy, we wouldn't be debating Garko and Francisco now.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:08 pm

Not sure what you mean....he's still a pull hitter as seen by his spray charts. More than 70% of the time last year he was eitehr pulling the ball to RF or hitting it up the middle to CF.

Bat speed isn't what it used to be...but he still managed to hit over .280 in the minors last year in his first healthy season in forever it seems. I think he builds on that and hits even better this year.....

Power really isn't there...he did hit 15 HRs his first full year with the Tribe, so did project as a 25 HR guy at the ML level til the injuries. Though at best Aubrey likely would have become like Sean Casey....which isn't bad really, but Casey's career was cut short because he lost some bat speed and relied almost soley on his BA to keep his jobs. Casey never hit more than 25 HRs and only 4 times had an OPS over .800....at 1B, that just doesn't cut it really. If Aubrey can get some strength back through conditioning and such, he could still manage to hit 20 HRs....which isn't bad for a ML 1B....though nothing special either....

Aubrey is one hell of an athlete and people tend to forget that. He was a 2-way player in college pitching his first two years at Tulane (as a starter mostly). I know I'm higher on Aubrey's abilities than most....but he showed a lot last year in my eyes. I really hope the Tribe gives him a lot of at-bats at Columubs.....but we'll see....


And Bradley? Are you talking about Milton Bradley? It wasn't the injuries that hurt him in Cleveland, it was his attitude. We shipped him out because Wedge couldn't stand the guy and said he couldn't coach him. Injuries have slowed his career down....but didn't really affect his time in Cleveland...at least not like Aubrey. So in that sense, Aubrey clearly has had the worse luck. Now who's had worse luck, Aubrey or McBride? That'd be an interesting debate.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:10 pm

Back to Michael Aubrey.....anyone know if the Tribe has ever thought of using him in LF or RF? Not saying we need more OFers or that Aubrey should be moved there full-time....but as it stands now, Aubrey can only play 1B (though he plays it well).....that hurts trade value even if he was healthy.

Tribe used Branyan, Broussard, and Sexson in the OF before.....so why not Aubrey? I know he's had a LOT of injuries, so leaving him at 1B made total sense recently. Easiest position to play (other than DH obviously) and would limit the chances of more injuries.....but with him down to his last option and coming up on minor league free agency soon....is it time to think about turning him into a Stephen Head type player?

Stephen Head was a lot liek Aubrey. Was a 2-way player in college and pitched for 3 year (very well actually...ERAs under 3 and even 2 once in the SEC). He's a great athlete that's a natural 1B, but can handle the OF as well. Aubrey obviously has a good arm as seen by his college pitching days, and I don't recall any arm injuries in the minors (mostly back and leg from what I remember, though maybe I'm missing one...there are a lot to keep track of).....so wouldn't he be a 'decent' fit in the OF as well?

Leg injuries obviously have slowed him down....so he won't be a very good OFer....but the Tribe is considering using Garko out there.....and I'd take Aubrey in a footrace there. Aubrey is arguably faster than Head as well. Choo is another former pitcher that was stuck in the OF because of his strong pitching arm. He hadn't played OF til he signed with the Mariners.


Again, just an idea though. Tribe obviously values versatility....and it never hurts to have a players value to have more of it.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:03 pm

Aubrey injuries killed a lot of that athleticism, he used to be a hell of a 1B reason he has not played OF is he just doesnt have the ability to anymore
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:12 pm

Hermie13 wrote:Not sure what you mean....he's still a pull hitter as seen by his spray charts. More than 70% of the time last year he was eitehr pulling the ball to RF or hitting it up the middle to CF.

Bat speed isn't what it used to be...but he still managed to hit over .280 in the minors last year in his first healthy season in forever it seems. I think he builds on that and hits even better this year.....

Power really isn't there...he did hit 15 HRs his first full year with the Tribe, so did project as a 25 HR guy at the ML level til the injuries. Though at best Aubrey likely would have become like Sean Casey....which isn't bad really, but Casey's career was cut short because he lost some bat speed and relied almost soley on his BA to keep his jobs. Casey never hit more than 25 HRs and only 4 times had an OPS over .800....at 1B, that just doesn't cut it really. If Aubrey can get some strength back through conditioning and such, he could still manage to hit 20 HRs....which isn't bad for a ML 1B....though nothing special either....

Aubrey is one hell of an athlete and people tend to forget that. He was a 2-way player in college pitching his first two years at Tulane (as a starter mostly). I know I'm higher on Aubrey's abilities than most....but he showed a lot last year in my eyes. I really hope the Tribe gives him a lot of at-bats at Columubs.....but we'll see....


And Bradley? Are you talking about Milton Bradley? It wasn't the injuries that hurt him in Cleveland, it was his attitude. We shipped him out because Wedge couldn't stand the guy and said he couldn't coach him. Injuries have slowed his career down....but didn't really affect his time in Cleveland...at least not like Aubrey. So in that sense, Aubrey clearly has had the worse luck. Now who's had worse luck, Aubrey or McBride? That'd be an interesting debate.....

Big brain Cramp!!! Started typing Brad Snyder and got distracted!
Hermie, if you cannot see it from the pictures and are going to quote statistics and comparisons on his bat speed, we aren't even on the same page. You are aware that bat speed is not necessarily relevant to whether the ball will be pulled. One of the fastest bats of his generation was Rod Carew who only pulled the ball when he needed to. I wish there was something I could say that would convince you the visual evidence is the best proof but that looks unlikely so i give up. :s_whiteflag
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:10 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Big brain Cramp!!! Started typing Brad Snyder and got distracted!
Hermie, if you cannot see it from the pictures and are going to quote statistics and comparisons on his bat speed, we aren't even on the same page. You are aware that bat speed is not necessarily relevant to whether the ball will be pulled. One of the fastest bats of his generation was Rod Carew who only pulled the ball when he needed to. I wish there was something I could say that would convince you the visual evidence is the best proof but that looks unlikely so i give up. :s_whiteflag


I agree bat speed isn't everythign, but he was still making great contact, which implies that he's still got some nice bat speed. I do agree it slowed.....but like I said, it slowed for Ludwick as well. It takes time coming back from the butt-load of injuries he's had.

Now, that time he needs may not come in Cleveland, and that's understandable considering the depth we hvae at the position.....but still hope he gets every opportunity this year with the Tribe...
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:15 am

jellis wrote:Aubrey injuries killed a lot of that athleticism, he used to be a hell of a 1B reason he has not played OF is he just doesnt have the ability to anymore


Still looked really athletic last year when I saw him at Akron and Cleveland. If his athletism was so bad the Tribe would have DHed him......however, it was't until this past year in Cleveland that he DHed in a game. Was always playing the field.

I do agree, he is a step slower now......but are you ready to say he's less athletic than Garko? The Tribe is moving Garko to the OF for a bit (or at least trying it out). I can't imagine Aubrey wouldn't be able to do it, even with his past injuries. I mean, Bonds was playing LF with no knees really.

But again, just a thought on how to move some at-bats around and try and increase Aubrey's value a bit...
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:46 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:Big brain Cramp!!! Started typing Brad Snyder and got distracted!
Hermie, if you cannot see it from the pictures and are going to quote statistics and comparisons on his bat speed, we aren't even on the same page. You are aware that bat speed is not necessarily relevant to whether the ball will be pulled. One of the fastest bats of his generation was Rod Carew who only pulled the ball when he needed to. I wish there was something I could say that would convince you the visual evidence is the best proof but that looks unlikely so i give up. :s_whiteflag


I agree bat speed isn't everythign, but he was still making great contact, which implies that he's still got some nice bat speed. I do agree it slowed.....but like I said, it slowed for Ludwick as well. It takes time coming back from the butt-load of injuries he's had.

Now, that time he needs may not come in Cleveland, and that's understandable considering the depth we hvae at the position.....but still hope he gets every opportunity this year with the Tribe...

Please do not put words in my mouth and agree with something I did not say. Starting the bat early and slapping at the ball when he guesses incorrectly accounts for everything. I gave up arguing with you because you refuse to look at the best evidence. Nothing is implied. It is what it is and you insist that visual evidence is not real. You insult reality. Ludwick did not slow. You have no visual proof, just opinion. Why you insist on these comparisons when you have actual visual proof is beyond comprehension. Just don't put words in my mouth or try to infer something from what I say.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:57 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:Please do not put words in my mouth and agree with something I did not say. Starting the bat early and slapping at the ball when he guesses incorrectly accounts for everything. I gave up arguing with you because you refuse to look at the best evidence. Nothing is implied. It is what it is and you insist that visual evidence is not real. You insult reality. Ludwick did not slow. You have no visual proof, just opinion. Why you insist on these comparisons when you have actual visual proof is beyond comprehension. Just don't put words in my mouth or try to infer something from what I say.


ditto. Where did I say that visual evidence is not real? O that's right, I didn't.

And what words did I put in your mouth exactly? You said bat speed wasn't necessarily relevant to pulling the ball and I agreed. Or did you not really type those words? Was it a magic fairly that typed them for you?

Can't even agree with you without you picking a fight. I'm glad you're done arguing with 'me'....as I haven't been disagreeing with you....all you're doing is arguing with yourself really. :s_empathy

And by the way, 'pictures' are a pretty lousy way to determine if a player's batspeed has slowed (which again, is what you said in your post). Now videos? That would be useful, but pictures don't show much, or at least much of anything that's useful.

And you're right, I don't have any pictures or other 'visual proof' of Ludwick's slowed bat speed. But he himself has said he nearly quit baseball because he didn't feel like he was hitting the way he used to be able to and catch up to pitches he once could. His bat did slow (maybe not as much as Aubrey's, never said that), but there was a reason he bounced around the minors and couldn't catch on til recently with the Cards. He sited his wrist injury in 2005 as a big issue. He struggled to get his swing back 2005 and even some in 2006. Wasn't til 2007 that he felt comfortable again....and showed as hit hit .340 in AAA that year earning a callup to the MLs.


And I did say Aubrey's bat speed has diminished. Why you continue to act like I'm disagreeing with you is beyond me. Again, you just seem to want to pick fights. You are like that little brother that hides behind and just yells out insults. good grief

Aubrey's bat speed has declined...but it's not gone as some are making it sound. Being fully healthy and in shape could easily get him back on track (just as it did for Ludwick). again though i AGREE that it's not likely (have said that about 3 times now).

Point is that it doesn't hurt to keep Aubrey around in AAA to see if he can improve. We'll know pretty quickly how the Tribe sees him. If he's playing over Head and Gimenez you'll know either they still think Aubrey has value and can improve.....or they are just very low on Head and Gimenez.....I'd lean more towards them likely Aubrey, but you never know I guess.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:51 pm

There is huge difference between bat speed being relevant to pulling the ball and not being "everything" in my outlook. It is probably the most determinant factor in hitting although pitch recognition is close. Bat speed can allow a player to wait longer on pitches rather than use it for pull power. Where did you say that the visual "video" evidence is real? In actual fact, everything you said contradicted that by offering alternatives to the visual evidence. And Ludwick was talking about pitch recognition! :s_empathy
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:07 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:There is huge difference between bat speed being relevant to pulling the ball and not being "everything" in my outlook. It is probably the most determinant factor in hitting although pitch recognition is close. Bat speed can allow a player to wait longer on pitches rather than use it for pull power. Where did you say that the visual "video" evidence is real? In actual fact, everything you said contradicted that by offering alternatives to the visual evidence. And Ludwick was talking about pitch recognition! :s_empathy


lol. I have never said anything about visual evidence (good or bad). You are the one that keeps bringing it up and saying that I don't believe in it. I simply have stated what I've seen in person from him and what I've read. Aubrey has lost bat speed, no one is denying that.


Ludwick was talking about bat speed as well. The wrist injury wouldn't affect his eyes in pitch recognition. I'm sure the pitch recognition was lacking as well though.

Hafner lost a ton of bat speed the last two years due to injury....do you think there's zero chance of him recovering? Fair enough if you do, that's your opinion. I'm sure the 'video' evidence would comfirm this....but that means nothing when talking about how he could improve this year when healthy. Just like Aubrey being fully healthy for a second year in a row will only help him.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:29 pm

Hermie, that is my point! You have not acknowledged the visual evidence at all! You offer contrary opinion without agreeing or disagreeing. You don't agree with me. You just say you agree and offer a completely different interpretation that had absolutely nothing to do with what I said about bat speed.

I am talking about Aubrey!!!! You want to talk about Ludwick and Hafner, neither of whom is relevant at all. Let me ask a simple question that will get to the heart of the issue. Do you believe, as I do, that the videos shown on this site offer indisputable evidence that Aubrey's ability to hit at the Major League level is remote, at best?

I have said nothing personal in this posting stream but I confess that I find your willingness to criticise other's english grammar and spelling to be misplaced.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:39 am

Hey, uh, isn't this thread supposed to be about the depth chart? :s_wink
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:53 am

my concern with aubrey is he migh take AB's away from giminez who I am hoping plays everyday but in a super sub role. 1B/C/RF/LF/3B and maybe second. I am a big giminez fan and think both he and torgeas can make the team next year, since Giminez is not just a catcher but a super sub a la a tony phillips or ryan freel, but with less speed and more power
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:16 pm

I really think Gimenez is a darkhorse to make the Indians roster out of spring training as a bench guy. I think he provides more value than Barfield/Marte, and I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact made the team. He is older, so the need for him to "play" and continue to develop in the minors is not necessary, and his flexibility should allow him to get into games.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:34 pm

I really hope Giminez gets onto the big league club and gets the chance to play.
If Chris is in the majors and is anchored to the bench, then the Tribe would have been better off holding onto Marte.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby JP_Frost » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:45 pm

Consigliere wrote:I really think Gimenez is a darkhorse to make the Indians roster out of spring training as a bench guy. I think he provides more value than Barfield/Marte, and I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact made the team. He is older, so the need for him to "play" and continue to develop in the minors is not necessary, and his flexibility should allow him to get into games.


how does his glove rate at the different positions he plays?
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:50 pm

JP_Frost wrote:
Consigliere wrote:I really think Gimenez is a darkhorse to make the Indians roster out of spring training as a bench guy. I think he provides more value than Barfield/Marte, and I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact made the team. He is older, so the need for him to "play" and continue to develop in the minors is not necessary, and his flexibility should allow him to get into games.


how does his glove rate at the different positions he plays?


He's about average across the board at all the positions. Which is fine for a player with that much versatility.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:12 pm

Tony,

I'm interested in your thoughts on Toregas as a major leaguer to start the season. He apparently is one of the finest defensive catchers in the minors with a very good time on his throws to second. His bat is a weakness, but is it good enough for a team to put up with considering his D? It seems that there are a lot of low average/power guys who have had decent careers in the majors. Also, a lot of teams that split up time among 2 or more catchers, with a relative few seeing as much as 400 ABs(at least in '08).

Could Toregas be one of the top defensive catchers in the game right now and if so, could he start for some teams? With Shoppach as something of an offensive force among all catchers despite K-ing a third of the time, the overall level of offense at this position seems weak. If not for concerns over Hafner's health and possibly Garko's (mostly)weak showing last year, we may have already traded Shoppach and been prepared to use Toregas in his place.

I'm asking because your ranking of Toregas at #51 surprised me a little. As a guy who seems ML ready at least as a backup and possible starter for several teams, I would think he could carve out a nice career for the next 6-8 years or more, depending on his health. Doesn't that make him a good prospect(despite his bat), or are these type guys so plentiful? I'm not going to be so bold as to disagree with your ranking, I'm just looking for more explanation I guess.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby TonyIBI » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:22 pm

I think Toregas would make a fine major league backup catcher. Anything beyond that is a reach if you ask me. His defensive skills and ability to lead a staff would be valuable as a backup....he just lacks much of a bat at the major league level. I wouldn't say he is an elite defensive catcher, but at worst he is above average, which for a backup is what you really want.

So, while Toregas is certainly much closer to the bigs than a lot of players ahead of him in the ranking....his impact potential (which is really what the ranking is based on) is a lot lower than many of the players. Toregas and Aubrey are in the same boat if you ask me....which is why I have both in the 50s....in that neither are much of the starting material in the bigs, but could be good bit players.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Chiefroy » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:27 pm

Thanks, Tony. I guess when I see guys like Brad Aumus, David Ross, etc. still playing, I think Toregas could be an improvement, despite their experience edge. But if your ranking's are based on impact, I guess he wouldn't make THAT much difference no matter what team he was with. I kinda hope he hits better and we get to see him in Cleveland soon. Be nice to see a guy shut down the opponent's running game almost completely.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:39 pm

Consigliere wrote:I really think Gimenez is a darkhorse to make the Indians roster out of spring training as a bench guy. I think he provides more value than Barfield/Marte, and I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact made the team. He is older, so the need for him to "play" and continue to develop in the minors is not necessary, and his flexibility should allow him to get into games.


tony your getting my hopes up, i would love to see him make this team and give more pop along with a few more walks to that bench
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:04 am

Consigliere wrote:I really think Gimenez is a darkhorse to make the Indians roster out of spring training as a bench guy. I think he provides more value than Barfield/Marte, and I wouldn't be surprised if he in fact made the team. He is older, so the need for him to "play" and continue to develop in the minors is not necessary, and his flexibility should allow him to get into games.


yeah, but it seems the Tribe is still pretty high on Barfield.....or just not that high on Cabrera. Sounds like Barfield will have a legit shot at winning the 2B job. I really can't see Gimenez crackign the lineup then unless there's a key injury or trade.

With all the infield flexibility we already have with DeRosa (4 infield positions), Peralta (2), Cabrera (3), and Carroll (3)......there's really no need for Gimenez.

Now maybe he blows everyone away in ST......but he struggled a lot last year at AAA at times. I just don't see it......but crazier things have happened.....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:11 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Hermie, that is my point! You have not acknowledged the visual evidence at all! You offer contrary opinion without agreeing or disagreeing. You don't agree with me. You just say you agree and offer a completely different interpretation that had absolutely nothing to do with what I said about bat speed.

I am talking about Aubrey!!!! You want to talk about Ludwick and Hafner, neither of whom is relevant at all. Let me ask a simple question that will get to the heart of the issue. Do you believe, as I do, that the videos shown on this site offer indisputable evidence that Aubrey's ability to hit at the Major League level is remote, at best?

I have said nothing personal in this posting stream but I confess that I find your willingness to criticise other's english grammar and spelling to be misplaced.


Actually, did ackowledge the visual evidence. You just ignored that part as usual. I'm talking about Aubrey too!!!! good grief

NO, I do NOT believe that the videos shown on this site offer INDISPUTABLE evidence that Aubrey's ability to hit at the ML leve is remote at best. Do I beleive they shown signs of a decrease in bat speed? Yes. But indisputable? no. You can't make that claim from just a few videos on one site. Someone could provide you with a bunch of videos that show the complete opposite when he did get his hands around on balls. Doesn't mean that he's got good bat speed though. Point is, Aubrey isn't the first injured guy to lose bat speed. Some get it back.....others don't. We'll see how Aubrey does this year.....



lol, I never 'criticise' other's spelling.....just grammar (though do find it funny you misspelled criticize just then). Spelling errors are typically the result of just typing too fast; however, grammatically errors are more a sign of lack of intelligence. Had a college professor that drilled grammar into us and turned it into a huge petpeeve of mine.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby endlesssleeper » Mon Feb 09, 2009 3:42 pm

however, grammatically errors are more a sign of lack of intelligence.


epic fail.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:15 pm

I think this is the first year that I feel really comfortable that the depth chart shows an ability to replace players across the board internally without going outside the organization. I don't care if you grade them or give them stars. We are loaded. Between the flexibility of the ML roster and Columbus, we can replace any position, either for injury or non-performance, and have a viable ML ballplayer or ML close prospect to replace them. I confess it gets a little difficult to replace if the loss is named Grady but we wouldn't be hugely embarrassed as a franchise with a choice of Francisco, Crowe or Brantley. After Grady, it gets a whole lot easier to see replacements, even for Hafner.

If that were the end of it, I wouldn't be nearly as enthused. We have four top position prospects in Akron with a top pitching prospect who is likely to be joined by another equally gifted pitcher by mid-season. We have an excellent A level prospect system and, unlike others, we are not dependent upon the advancement of a few top level prospects for our system value. There is much to be said for developing a whole organization of replacement players against the top prospect approach when you are a small market franchise who is likely to lose its best players to FA when the opportunity to leave presents itself. I think, as fans, we have to accept that our ability to compete as a franchise may depend, for the most part, on the success of finding replacements internally. For the first time since their rebuilding, I think we are getting there.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:29 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:
however, grammatically errors are more a sign of lack of intelligence.


epic fail.


or purposeful irony
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:37 pm

I agree indianinkslinger. The depth (at least at the upper levels) is a very pleasant thing to see. The middle infield is a bit lax IMO....but as far as 2009 goes, we're fine (as long as multiple injuries don't occur).

Still think if Victor goes down again, we're doomed to failure. I know Shoppach came on strong and had a very good offensive year last year.....we're still not the same team without our leader, Victor. The Indians don't designate a 'captain'....but it seems pretty clear that Victor is the unnamed captain of the team. Tribe was in first place in mid-May last year.....then Victor goes down and we're in last place within a month......yeah, there were other circumstances that led to that.....but Victor was the key missing component (at least in my eyes).

The rotation has tons of depth......now how good that depth is......still a little concerned...but not as much as some people....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby endlesssleeper » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:35 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
endlesssleeper wrote:
however, grammatically errors are more a sign of lack of intelligence.


epic fail.


or purposeful irony


doubtful.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby jellis » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:40 pm

endlesssleeper wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:
endlesssleeper wrote:
however, grammatically errors are more a sign of lack of intelligence.


epic fail.


or purposeful irony


doubtful.


you mean doutbfully, right?
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:20 pm

Hermie13 wrote:I agree indianinkslinger. The depth (at least at the upper levels) is a very pleasant thing to see. The middle infield is a bit lax IMO....but as far as 2009 goes, we're fine (as long as multiple injuries don't occur).

Still think if Victor goes down again, we're doomed to failure. I know Shoppach came on strong and had a very good offensive year last year.....we're still not the same team without our leader, Victor. The Indians don't designate a 'captain'....but it seems pretty clear that Victor is the unnamed captain of the team. Tribe was in first place in mid-May last year.....then Victor goes down and we're in last place within a month......yeah, there were other circumstances that led to that.....but Victor was the key missing component (at least in my eyes).

The rotation has tons of depth......now how good that depth is......still a little concerned...but not as much as some people....

I think you are right about the rotation. Westbrook is the only true #3 and Huff is probably the only true #3 potential but has to be considered a 5 until he can handle the innings. For better or worse, the other six have to be looked at as BOR until they show otherwise. I don't think there is any other TOR/MOR starting prospects AA or above other than Miller, who is not a 2009 candidate, and Rondon, who is probably not a serious candidate until mid 2010. However, there are many teams who cannot call upon a practically endless supply of young 4/5s at AAA.

I think Victor is our 2nd best position player but I have no qualms about the ML team turning the catching duties over to Shoppach and 1B over to Garko/LaPorta until Akron prospects are ready to move. It won't be as good as Victor but it won't be like we have no talent either. Last year was largely unknown but I don't believe the same can be said about this year. I already think Victor is bound for the Yankees/Red Sox in 2010/11 anyway. You are probably going to nominate me for the asylum but I really believe Peralta is more difficult to replace right now. No, I don't get teary eyed at the prospect but he is the best SS in the AL IMHO and I expect him to go the same way as Victor. I am just not as worried about that anymore. I think the system can provide reasonable replacements now. The 2008 draft and international signings show that Shapiro believes it too. We went for an unusually large number of high ceiling talent who has its share of risks for the first time in many years. We could do that because we have replacements in the upper levels of the system. Simply put, the organization appears to understand their financial limitations and has reacted as well as could be expected and we are finally beginning to see the fruits of their labor. :s_yahoo
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:45 pm

I think the point that was missed is the Tribe has a number of solid/ functional options in place already. Due to that fact, Shapiro/ Atkins were able to take some risks becuase missing would not mean a completely barren system.
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:16 am

endlesssleeper wrote:
Hermie13 wrote:or purposeful irony


doubtful.


sometimes I forget the audience I'm writing to.... :s_empathy
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:42 am

indianinkslinger wrote:I think you are right about the rotation. Westbrook is the only true #3 and Huff is probably the only true #3 potential but has to be considered a 5 until he can handle the innings. For better or worse, the other six have to be looked at as BOR until they show otherwise. I don't think there is any other TOR/MOR starting prospects AA or above other than Miller, who is not a 2009 candidate, and Rondon, who is probably not a serious candidate until mid 2010. However, there are many teams who cannot call upon a practically endless supply of young 4/5s at AAA.

I think Victor is our 2nd best position player but I have no qualms about the ML team turning the catching duties over to Shoppach and 1B over to Garko/LaPorta until Akron prospects are ready to move. It won't be as good as Victor but it won't be like we have no talent either. Last year was largely unknown but I don't believe the same can be said about this year. I already think Victor is bound for the Yankees/Red Sox in 2010/11 anyway. You are probably going to nominate me for the asylum but I really believe Peralta is more difficult to replace right now. No, I don't get teary eyed at the prospect but he is the best SS in the AL IMHO and I expect him to go the same way as Victor. I am just not as worried about that anymore. I think the system can provide reasonable replacements now. The 2008 draft and international signings show that Shapiro believes it too. We went for an unusually large number of high ceiling talent who has its share of risks for the first time in many years. We could do that because we have replacements in the upper levels of the system. Simply put, the organization appears to understand their financial limitations and has reacted as well as could be expected and we are finally beginning to see the fruits of their labor. :s_yahoo


ugh, I know.....if he were just healthy this team would be totally set in my eyes. He's that inning eating solid presence all teams need in the middle of a rotation. Was vastly underrated in 2007 (check out his numbers after coming back from his injury) and gave one of the gutsiest performances I've seen in a while in Game 7 of that ALCS (still not sure how my TV didn't break that game, lol). Hopefully he can come back and give us a few good innings later in the year.

I disagree slightly on the potential part.....though admit I'm alone mostly here. I still think Sowers can turn into a solid pitcher. This is his make or break year though.....


Actually...I partially agree with you here too. I've been a HUGE Jhonny P fan since he first came up at 20 to replace the injured Omar. He's underrated at SS defensively (better than the GG winning Young really) and IS the best hitting SS in the AL right now (Jeter winning the Silver Slugger was a biggest joke since he won his gold gloves). Peralta probably is harder to replace than Martinez.....however, I still think Martinez is more 'valuable' to this team. I do value leadership skills though more than most I'll admit.....

And I'm not sold on Martinez jumping ship after 2010. He'll be 32 on opening day in 2011.....not many catchers that old get big dolloars. Only 4 really come to mind recently that have gotten more then $10M per year (could be more). Posada is one.....and he was definitely overpayed by the Yanks to keep a leader. They have a few options coming up....and in 2011 will still have him under contract. Can they afford to have both him and Martinez on the same team as catchers? Maybe....it is the Yanks so you never know. The Red Sox gave Varitek a 4yr/$40M at pretty much the same age as Martinez will be.....and they saw that it was at least 1 year too long. They'll make a big push for Mauer....or have their catcher through trade likely by then. The other two catchers that got at least $10M/yr were Piazza (arguably the best hitting catcher of all time) and Rodriguez (arguably the best defensive catcher of all time.....just behind Bench). I love Martinez.....but I don't think he's worth either of those two in their primes at the moment.

Plus Martinez's injuries will scare some teams off most likely (though 2 years is a long time so you never know). Tribe gave Westbrook and Hafner pretty solid offers and kept them around.....I think they can and will do the same with Martinez.....but we'll see....
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:11 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:I think you are right about the rotation. Westbrook is the only true #3 and Huff is probably the only true #3 potential but has to be considered a 5 until he can handle the innings. For better or worse, the other six have to be looked at as BOR until they show otherwise. I don't think there is any other TOR/MOR starting prospects AA or above other than Miller, who is not a 2009 candidate, and Rondon, who is probably not a serious candidate until mid 2010. However, there are many teams who cannot call upon a practically endless supply of young 4/5s at AAA.

I think Victor is our 2nd best position player but I have no qualms about the ML team turning the catching duties over to Shoppach and 1B over to Garko/LaPorta until Akron prospects are ready to move. It won't be as good as Victor but it won't be like we have no talent either. Last year was largely unknown but I don't believe the same can be said about this year. I already think Victor is bound for the Yankees/Red Sox in 2010/11 anyway. You are probably going to nominate me for the asylum but I really believe Peralta is more difficult to replace right now. No, I don't get teary eyed at the prospect but he is the best SS in the AL IMHO and I expect him to go the same way as Victor. I am just not as worried about that anymore. I think the system can provide reasonable replacements now. The 2008 draft and international signings show that Shapiro believes it too. We went for an unusually large number of high ceiling talent who has its share of risks for the first time in many years. We could do that because we have replacements in the upper levels of the system. Simply put, the organization appears to understand their financial limitations and has reacted as well as could be expected and we are finally beginning to see the fruits of their labor. :s_yahoo


ugh, I know.....if he were just healthy this team would be totally set in my eyes. He's that inning eating solid presence all teams need in the middle of a rotation. Was vastly underrated in 2007 (check out his numbers after coming back from his injury) and gave one of the gutsiest performances I've seen in a while in Game 7 of that ALCS (still not sure how my TV didn't break that game, lol). Hopefully he can come back and give us a few good innings later in the year.

I disagree slightly on the potential part.....though admit I'm alone mostly here. I still think Sowers can turn into a solid pitcher. This is his make or break year though.....


Actually...I partially agree with you here too. I've been a HUGE Jhonny P fan since he first came up at 20 to replace the injured Omar. He's underrated at SS defensively (better than the GG winning Young really) and IS the best hitting SS in the AL right now (Jeter winning the Silver Slugger was a biggest joke since he won his gold gloves). Peralta probably is harder to replace than Martinez.....however, I still think Martinez is more 'valuable' to this team. I do value leadership skills though more than most I'll admit.....

And I'm not sold on Martinez jumping ship after 2010. He'll be 32 on opening day in 2011.....not many catchers that old get big dolloars. Only 4 really come to mind recently that have gotten more then $10M per year (could be more). Posada is one.....and he was definitely overpayed by the Yanks to keep a leader. They have a few options coming up....and in 2011 will still have him under contract. Can they afford to have both him and Martinez on the same team as catchers? Maybe....it is the Yanks so you never know. The Red Sox gave Varitek a 4yr/$40M at pretty much the same age as Martinez will be.....and they saw that it was at least 1 year too long. They'll make a big push for Mauer....or have their catcher through trade likely by then. The other two catchers that got at least $10M/yr were Piazza (arguably the best hitting catcher of all time) and Rodriguez (arguably the best defensive catcher of all time.....just behind Bench). I love Martinez.....but I don't think he's worth either of those two in their primes at the moment.

Plus Martinez's injuries will scare some teams off most likely (though 2 years is a long time so you never know). Tribe gave Westbrook and Hafner pretty solid offers and kept them around.....I think they can and will do the same with Martinez.....but we'll see....

No serious disagreement on anything you have said. I hate to go negative after beating the drum but I am not at all sold on the short/long term economic outlook for the franchise. The days of sellouts are long gone. Even if the Indians make the playoffs, spend a fortune on promotions and discount tickets, I really do not see anything over 2,000,000 in attendance. I expect the long term prognosis to be even worse. No sense in ranting, it is just my opinion based on the economic factors I see. :s_cry
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Re: Tony's 2009 Depth Chart

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 4:41 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:No serious disagreement on anything you have said. I hate to go negative after beating the drum but I am not at all sold on the short/long term economic outlook for the franchise. The days of sellouts are long gone. Even if the Indians make the playoffs, spend a fortune on promotions and discount tickets, I really do not see anything over 2,000,000 in attendance. I expect the long term prognosis to be even worse. No sense in ranting, it is just my opinion based on the economic factors I see. :s_cry


Don't see over 2million fans this year? Really?

If the Tribe wins this year, they'll see the attendance go up from last year. No 3 million fan seasons like in the late 90s, but fans still come out for a winner. And when I say an increase, I'm only talking like 100-200k.

But baseball is still a pretty cheap (in relative terms) form of entertainment. Indians tickets are less than a freakin movie now-a-days. I got a 20-game season ticket package for less than $400......my last electric bill was more than that.

Yes, these are definitely hard times......but Cleveland loves/needs a winner. If the Tribe is in first place or close in July I expect to see attendence numbers around what they were in 2007. Gas (at least for the moment) is cheaper than it was back then even.


Check out the Cavs attendence numbers. Selling out regularly because they are a winner....yes, and because of Lebron. Not saying Tribe will sellout like that, but you'd be suprised what just a 100-200k increase in fans can do for a team......would make up for all of Pavano's incentives right there.....


The Tribe has also been pretty smart and economical with their deals (well.....the Hafner one may turn out pretty bad but can't win them all). The were smart to pass on giving Thome the extra years. CC is great.....but the extra years just wasn't smart for a starting pitcher really these days. If Martinez is healthy and hitting alright, I have confidence (albeit, likely too much) that the Tribe will make a sound offer and get a deal worked out with him.

We'll see though.....man I can't wait for April......
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