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How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Talk shop about the various prospects and teams that make up the Cleveland Indians organization.

Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby MadThinker88 » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:26 pm

I don't think the quote fuels the debate at all. He is basically saying that both players have value for the Tribe.

It basically kills the thoughts other teams might have of sending a PTBNL to the Tribe for either one of those guys.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:46 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:I don't think the quote fuels the debate at all. He is basically saying that both players have value for the Tribe.

It basically kills the thoughts other teams might have of sending a PTBNL to the Tribe for either one of those guys.



It just fuels in terms of the crowe vs brantly skill debate
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:57 pm

It pretty much tells us all we want to know, and believed, except for who is the better centerfielder...and whether either could play center field on the major league level.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:42 pm

no one has commented so not sure if people missed that BA put up a whole story on Trevor Crowe this week, its premium content but its atypical story we all know about his trials and tribulations
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:58 pm

jellis wrote:no one has commented so not sure if people missed that BA put up a whole story on Trevor Crowe this week, its premium content but its atypical story we all know about his trials and tribulations


Would love to see that article or parts of it if someone can post it here.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:10 am

MadThinker88 wrote:Hermie,
I do not think Outfield Assists is a good measure of an outfielder's arm strength.
Teams are more likely to run or try to stretch on a guy that has a wearker arm.
Also, assists are dependent on a clean catch by the other fielder and often a relay throw as well. Neither of those items are in control of the outfielder.


I said in my post it's not the best. But still shows he's got a decent enough arm for LF or CF. As long as he's never in RF (which he won't be), then his arm is fine.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:54 pm

The point I am making is outfield assists should not be considered at all.
They do not actually measure an outfielder's arm strength.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:45 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:The point I am making is outfield assists should not be considered at all.
They do not actually measure an outfielder's arm strength.


tend to measure a lack of respect of an arm in my opinion
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:48 pm

With all the stats available it would nice to see a defensive stat that looked at extra bases taken on an outfielder vs assists vs errors. It would seem like this would not be that hard of a stat to keep track of but, with all the other stats, I am sure they are not looking for more things to keep track of.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby twdelaney34 » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:21 pm

dnosco wrote:With all the stats available it would nice to see a defensive stat that looked at extra bases taken on an outfielder vs assists vs errors. It would seem like this would not be that hard of a stat to keep track of but, with all the other stats, I am sure they are not looking for more things to keep track of.


Not hard to keep track of, agreed. But, I feel like there is a lot of subjectivity there, as far as balls into the gap, down the line, etc. I could get a double to right on Vlad G., but that's not indicative of his arm strength, I just hit it to a good spot. I see what you mean as far as "extra base taken," but again, I feel like there is a lot of subjectivity there, not easily quantified.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:10 am

dnosco wrote:With all the stats available it would nice to see a defensive stat that looked at extra bases taken on an outfielder vs assists vs errors. It would seem like this would not be that hard of a stat to keep track of but, with all the other stats, I am sure they are not looking for more things to keep track of.


I bet they do keep that stat somewhere (they keep track of 'extra bases taken' for runners).....but not sure where to find it. Though for minorleaguers it's not likely they have it. But do agree, it would be a nice stat to see.


ha, kind of funny we're actually even talking about arm strength for these two LF/CFers. For CF, a good arm is the least important thing along with Power. In LF it's the least important thing along with speed.....

Neither has a good arm.....but who cares?

I wouldn't say assists are worthless though (not that you necessarily did). Yeah high totals can mean lack of respect....but still nice to see a guy at least throwing guys out in that case. Not sure how many people 'respect' Crowe's arm......
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Duane Kuiper » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:34 pm

dnosco wrote:With all the stats available it would nice to see a defensive stat that looked at extra bases taken on an outfielder vs assists vs errors. It would seem like this would not be that hard of a stat to keep track of but, with all the other stats, I am sure they are not looking for more things to keep track of.

The Bill James Online website has that stat. It keeps track of the extra bases took compared to average.

The rankings are by each OF position.

Grady ranked 18th in 2008 and 23rd in 2007.

Ben was 22nd in 2008.

Gutz in RF in 08 was 3rd. 42.2% of the time a runner took an extra base on him.

For Grady it was 57.2%.

For a LF, a 44.9% rate ranked that player 22nd but a 57.2% ranked a CF at 18th. For a RF, 42.2% ranked 3rd.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:06 pm

What about Choo?
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby artgold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:26 pm

indianinkslinger wrote:
artgold wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:Brantley will not be the sleeper of this trade. Poor defensive slap hitters never become more than average MLers.

Juan Pierre is a good comp. More walks than Ks, but not enough walks. Low SLG. Poor SB%.



My Brantley comp at the moment is Terry Puhl, who was an Astros OF back in the 1980's. Take a look at his age per minor league level, his physical size, his stolen base stats and his BB/K and AB/BB, and he looks an awful lot like Brantley. If this comp is accurate, a Ben Francisco batting about 20 points higher than last year (with a similar rise in his OBP and SLG) would generally considered to be a better offensive contributor than Puhl. While Puhl was somewhat hurt by playing in the Astrodome, his home and road stats weren't that significantly different.

If you take a look at Ben Francisco's repeat performances in Akron (2004/2005) and Buffalo (2006/2007) you see a strong pattern of adjustment, and increases in offensive performance. A similar improvement may take place in Cleveland this summer, moving him up to a performance line somewhere in the .285/.350/.460 range, which is significantly better than the offensive performance of Puhl.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... puhl.shtml

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... isco.shtml


Hi Art, You have this comp stuff down better than I do but I have seen a comp in other places comparing Brantley to former Indian "slap hitter" Brett Butler. I took a brief look at Butler's and Puhl's stats and I can see why the Butler comp has some attraction. Do you think there is any merit to the Butler comp? Do you still plan to be in Goodyear?


Hi, sorry it took so long to respond but we went down to Los Angeles for the weekend and just returned.

Butler is a comp when looking at BA and BB/K, however he falls out in two meaningful ways. First off, he didn't begin his career until he was 22 years old, and played in the SAL at 23, so he has been old for his level when in the minors. Second, he is a really small and wiry type of guy, built much more like Omar Vizquel when he was younger (Omar acturally got pretty sturdy physically once he hit his late 20's). Butler was much more of a stolen base threat than Brantley too.

Brantley is much larger. I use the Puhl comp because he was actually a fairly big guy, with very good speed and athletic ability, who was much more of a slap hitter than his physique would indicate. He hit for pretty good averages, and was young for his league, making the majors at age 20. In addition, he had the odd BB/K type of stats we see in Brantley. Puhl had 217 stolen bases in what really amounted to a 9 year career.

Regarding Arizona, I plan on heading down around March 17th, and spending almost a week at Goodyear.


BTW - Not to throw cold water on Brantley, but Ken Ramos isn't a bad comp either:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... amos.shtml
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby artgold » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:42 pm

cardiackidz wrote:terry puhl lol come on that guy had major white guy athletic ability. he has moe natural athletic ability then terry puhl. thinking about it i never thought i'd ever think of terry puhl again until today.


Puhl was considered a "plus" athlete when coming up in the Astros system, hardly an athletic slug.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Duane Kuiper » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:47 pm

Hermie13 wrote:What about Choo?

Choo has never had enough playing time to get ranked. He had a great 31.8% in 2006 in RF and a poor 55.1% in 08 when he was recovering from TJ surgery.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:14 pm

Duane Kuiper wrote:Choo has never had enough playing time to get ranked. He had a great 31.8% in 2006 in RF and a poor 55.1% in 08 when he was recovering from TJ surgery.


What was the cutoff? He didn't play that much less than Francisco this past year.....

Hopefully the arm will be fully recovered this year. And hopefully he's done being an idiot and trying to throw 95 mph fastballs during practice like some of his former teammates said he'd do in his younger days. Will be interesting to see how he looks in spring training....err, the WBC....

With Gut gone, we'll need his strong arm out in RF....he definitely has the strongest one of anyone on the team (or close in the minors).
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:54 pm

artgold wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:
artgold wrote:
Duane Kuiper wrote:Brantley will not be the sleeper of this trade. Poor defensive slap hitters never become more than average MLers.

Juan Pierre is a good comp. More walks than Ks, but not enough walks. Low SLG. Poor SB%.



My Brantley comp at the moment is Terry Puhl, who was an Astros OF back in the 1980's. Take a look at his age per minor league level, his physical size, his stolen base stats and his BB/K and AB/BB, and he looks an awful lot like Brantley. If this comp is accurate, a Ben Francisco batting about 20 points higher than last year (with a similar rise in his OBP and SLG) would generally considered to be a better offensive contributor than Puhl. While Puhl was somewhat hurt by playing in the Astrodome, his home and road stats weren't that significantly different.

If you take a look at Ben Francisco's repeat performances in Akron (2004/2005) and Buffalo (2006/2007) you see a strong pattern of adjustment, and increases in offensive performance. A similar improvement may take place in Cleveland this summer, moving him up to a performance line somewhere in the .285/.350/.460 range, which is significantly better than the offensive performance of Puhl.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... puhl.shtml

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... isco.shtml


Hi Art, You have this comp stuff down better than I do but I have seen a comp in other places comparing Brantley to former Indian "slap hitter" Brett Butler. I took a brief look at Butler's and Puhl's stats and I can see why the Butler comp has some attraction. Do you think there is any merit to the Butler comp? Do you still plan to be in Goodyear?


Hi, sorry it took so long to respond but we went down to Los Angeles for the weekend and just returned.

Butler is a comp when looking at BA and BB/K, however he falls out in two meaningful ways. First off, he didn't begin his career until he was 22 years old, and played in the SAL at 23, so he has been old for his level when in the minors. Second, he is a really small and wiry type of guy, built much more like Omar Vizquel when he was younger (Omar acturally got pretty sturdy physically once he hit his late 20's). Butler was much more of a stolen base threat than Brantley too.

Brantley is much larger. I use the Puhl comp because he was actually a fairly big guy, with very good speed and athletic ability, who was much more of a slap hitter than his physique would indicate. He hit for pretty good averages, and was young for his league, making the majors at age 20. In addition, he had the odd BB/K type of stats we see in Brantley. Puhl had 217 stolen bases in what really amounted to a 9 year career.

Regarding Arizona, I plan on heading down around March 17th, and spending almost a week at Goodyear.


BTW - Not to throw cold water on Brantley, but Ken Ramos isn't a bad comp either:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... amos.shtml

No offense to the Ramos comp but if Butler is too old to fit, why would Ramos? Brantley is as far at 21, which is before Ramos even started, as Ramos was in his whole career. I get the difference and see why you chose Puhl. It would not have occurred to me to look at the physical differences. As i said, very little experience in this comparison stuff. No cold water as far as i am concerned. I just watch them play and decide. I may have to learn new tricks now but it's a little far along to develop a whole new approach. :s_drinks
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby artgold » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:02 pm

Ramos is only a comp in that his size, stolen base, BB/strikeout ratio and high batting average profile a lot like Brantley.

As you state, he began much older, but his approach and stats seem to indicate a similar player. Brantley is still young enough to "muscle up" and become more of a power hitter than Puhl or Ramos, however I kind of think that this would require a significantly different batting approach, and may screw him up in other ways.

But hopefully, he turns on the power, and we have a future star (but mark me down as a little doubtful).
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:37 pm

artgold wrote:Ramos is only a comp in that his size, stolen base, BB/strikeout ratio and high batting average profile a lot like Brantley.

As you state, he began much older, but his approach and stats seem to indicate a similar player. Brantley is still young enough to "muscle up" and become more of a power hitter than Puhl or Ramos, however I kind of think that this would require a significantly different batting approach, and may screw him up in other ways.

But hopefully, he turns on the power, and we have a future star (but mark me down as a little doubtful).

Still can't see the Ramos comp. Maybe it is just the age thing. I like your Puhl comp much better but I see a significant difference between the two. Power is not my issue. It may be foremost on your mind, as it is with others. I am more concerned with BA and OBP. The peripheral for me is SB. In these areas, I believe he compares favorably to Puhl's minor league performance. I think that would project to the majors, power aside. My point is that he may not be a better player than Francisco offensively but that he may be a better player for the Indians because of a singular skillset. I can see many advantages to a 2010 Tribe lineup that includes a high OBP speedster at the top of the order. I see fewer advantages to Francisco's more balanced offensive skills. Simply put, if I cannot have the perfect player, I want the player who best suits the team needs. I can see why you like this stuff and you are good at it but I am going to have to wait to see him play before I reach a conclusion. But that's just me! :s_dunno
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby toledobuck » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:26 pm

Perhaps a better comparison is a cross between J. Damon and Lofton. Power never came for Lofton until later. Brantley will more than likely go the same route with his development still transpiring. I am in the mind set that Brantley is going to be a nice piece to our puzzle and will be aour table setter for many years to come. The tribe only has a couple non power holes in the line up (2B, LF) so some speed and a high OBP is a perfect fit for our particular team needs.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:50 pm

I think, currently, our third base position is substandard, powerwise, as is our first base position and our DH production is in serious question. As we are proabably locked into Astrocab at 2B (or SS) down the road, we may, indeed, have some significant production issues that might make Brantley, if he doesn't develop any more power than he has now, a real liability, offensively, to this team. Maybe not but, if he is OK in this lineup, I don't think it will be because we have league average or better power at 7 of the other 8 positions, because I don't think we have that.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:27 pm

If Brantley has the OBP he has had in the minors and hits 0 HRs, he's still an asset to the team.

You're overlooking that we get WELL above average power from SS, CF, and C. That easily offsets the lack of power at 1B and DH (3B is fine with DeRosa). RF depends on Choo and how he does this year and beyond. If Hafner is healthy, DH should be fine for the next few years at least. If not then LaPorta, Mills, and Weglarz are coming up.

Tribe did slip to 8th in HRs this past year....but without Victor and Hafner for much of the year really hurt. Previous two we were 5th in HRs....and that was with the likes of Dellucci and Michaels in LF (and Boone at 3B in 2006).

Again, Brantley could hit 0 HRs, but as long as he's getting on base and scoring runs (which is what a good leadoff hitter does, no matter the position they play), then he's improving the offense. It's not all about power.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby petes999 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:44 pm

My 2 cents on this is just because we have Sizemore in CF doesn't mean we don't look for power in LF. Nor, having a substandard 3b mean we don't look at having a Brantley's type hitter in LF on the team.

Defensively, having Brantley in LF is a plus. Yet, it isn't as big as a plus as if he could play RF due to lack of throwing arm. I wouldn't mind Brantley in LF, yet you only gain a few runs here or there because of it. Thus, his offense (RBI/runs) need to be better than average. Him hitting .280 and 10HRs doesn't do it ... just like Francisco isn't a long-term solution. Yet, I think he can do more from a runs basis than a Fransisco with his walks and high BA.

Offensively, I initially liked the argument that we have power from our CF, SS and C that you usually don't get on a team, so LF can be a speedster. Yet, in thinking more about it, the argument should be who is our more potent offense weapon? The question is having a .270 & 30 HR guy in left or a .300 & 10 HR & 35 SB in left. I didn't hear anyone complain when we had a stacked line-up in the 90s when our 8th hole hitter was somewhat of a 2nd clean-up guy. Now, if our decision is Laporta or Brantley, I may want to go with Laporta IF he can hit for a decent average. However, Brantley has the possibility of being a .310+ guy which goes into the Ichiro range. Would you go with an Ichiro type over a Dunn (.250 40 HR)? In my opinion yes, reason why he is an all-star. Would I have a team of Ichiros, hell yes. Play small ball like the Twins, only better.

Yet, to say Brantley can play LF because we have Sizemore in CF is a weak argument for me. The real argument is two fold:

1) Who gives you better defense of Laporta, Francisco and Brantley?

2) Who gives you more runs/RBIs of the three? HRs don't mean anything if you can't also get other hits. I would take a team of Ichiros over a team of Dunns.

The only other consideration is do we have a #1 and #2 hitter? If not, due to Sizemore losing a step and needing to go down to the 3 hole, then I can see the argument for Brantley in one of the two slots. Yet, if we have:

1) Sizemore
2) Valbuena (after DeRosa leaves)
3) Hafner
4) Martinez
5) Peralta
6) Mills/Garko
7) Choo
8) Brantley/Francisco/LaPorta
9) Cabrera

Then I would want LaPorta if he can do 35HR and .280-.290. Yet, I would also do Brantley at .315/40SB. Thus issue isn't per se we have Martinez or Sizemore in CF/C. Rather, who produces more ... Speedy guys who get contact like Kirby or Ichiro are just as valuable as a HR hitter in LF.

So, don't let the argument that Hafner, Martinez, Sizemore give you the power so Brantley/Fransisco can fill in o.k. Nor, don't let the argument that LF needs to be a power position, unless you wouldn't take Ichiro as your LFer. Plus, by the time Brantley hits his prime in 3-4 years, our line-up will look totally different

1) Sizemore
2) Valbuena/Hodges
3) Santana
4) Hafner
5) Mills
6) Choo
7) Chisenhall/Hodges
8) Brantley/Laporta
9) Cabrera

It's all speculation .... Yet, Brantley or Laporta can fill a good role if they max out their potential.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:54 am

One thing to keep in mind.....LaPorta AND Brantley could both be on the same team at some point soon. Choo could be gone or have struggled and not be in RF anymore (which is one reason I think the Tribe will continue to play LaPorta in RF this year). You could have a lineup of Brantley, Valbuena/Cabrera, Sizemore, Martinez, Hafner, Peralta, LaPorta, Mills, Cabrera/Valbuena in 2 years as well.

Kind of a moot point. It's tough enough to predict how the lineup will look this year, let alone next year or 2 years from now.....

Tribe does have plenty of options with their lineup though judging by the the talent at AAA and below...


And I know it was only for half a year....but the Tribe did go with Kenny Lofton in LF in 2007, which nearly got them to the WS (it did help get us to the playoffs)....yet provided 0 HRs from LF......
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:51 am

lets face it you never know anything year to year we can all remember the karim garcia period
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby cardiackidz » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:42 am

lets also add in marty cardoova who also fell off the face of the earth after cleveland.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:56 pm

I must add I hate the argument well we get above avg production at one position so we can go with lesser production at another, great teams don't do this they don't have weak spots. If you must have a weak spot that player better have other skills to excel in and I mean excel.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby justafan » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:38 pm

On the outfield discussion, he's how I think it's really going to play out.

1. If Dellucci can't be moved (and he can't), Shapiro will need to ask himself if a roster spot for him is worthy or just eat the cash. This would be a tough call if there were multiple $4M per year guys on the 25 man. Since anyone replacing Dellucci would enter at the ML minimum, eating the cash may not be that far out of the question (dumping him only effectively costs $400K).

2. If Dellucci is traded and we pick up a big chunk of the contract and the team accepting him pays $400K, we break even financially.

3. The question is - will Crowe, Brantley, or LaPorta be more valuable to us than Dellucci? If so, then we're in good shape. If not, we're stuck with Dellucci, not only financially but for the good of the team.

4. My bet is at least one of them is more valuable to us than Dellucci - TODAY.

5. If Shapiro feels the same and Dellucci is moved and we're not financially hindered by paying more than what we're already committed to paying in '09 (#2 above), Crowe will get the first opportunity. He's older (which is a good thing) and more seasoned. If he doesn't perform, LaPorta will be next, followed by Brantley.

6. Why that order? Shapiro has never moved a player quickly and this trend will not change here. I don't know of any player he's moved from AA to the bigs, so Brantley or LaPorta making the roster out of spring training is nearly moot. Crowe's chances out of spring training are slim, but because of his experience and where he was drafted, he'll get the first call. The issue is not "who WILL BE the better player?", the issue is "who IS the better player TODAY?". The answers to the questions are not necessarily the same (they can be the same, but generally are not)

7. After Crowe - Brantley and LaPorta will make their appearances at some point in '09 and then the real competition begins.

8. Let's not forget Benny, it's his job TODAY! He earned it and if he's not passed at some point (or gets hurt, etc.) none of the outfield prospects will get the opportunity to show their stuff. And if Benny continues to improve, this discussion becomes relatively meaningless.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby MadThinker88 » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:01 pm

The only real option to replace Delucci on the bench coming out of spring training is Crowe because he is already on the 40 man roster.

For Brantley or LaPorta to get called up, there are either injuries, a lack of performance or superlative efforts on their part to push aside a performing Choo or Benny.

When these guys get called up (Brantley/ LaPorta), they need to continue playing, not taking a spot on the bench. Otherwise why burn one of their option years? Crowe being on the 40 man is already burning an option year.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:29 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:The only real option to replace Delucci on the bench coming out of spring training is Crowe because he is already on the 40 man roster.

For Brantley or LaPorta to get called up, there are either injuries, a lack of performance or superlative efforts on their part to push aside a performing Choo or Benny.

When these guys get called up (Brantley/ LaPorta), they need to continue playing, not taking a spot on the bench. Otherwise why burn one of their option years? Crowe being on the 40 man is already burning an option year.



Well said,if a shoppach deal goes down at some point which it still might I expect Laporta to be up the next day. At this point I feel that shoppach will take a lion share of garkos AB's this year. I think we all know DD will get 2 to 3 months to prove hes not toast, after that who knows what occurs, maybe we ditch him as part of the shoppach deal. I would like to see crowe up here as the 4th OF, I am not his biggest fan and to me a 4th is what he projects to be in the big leagues, so might as well use him in that role. I am not as sure as everyone else we will see brantly this year. Unless he tears the cover off the ball I expect him to be in AAA virtually the whole year. Just too many guys in front of him even in AAA
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jhonny » Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:30 am

I think they start Dellucci on the bench, and only make a move with him if Francisco struggles. Calling up Crowe to be a 4th OF in April and May seems pointless, even if Crowe is marginally better than Dellucci today. If Francisco struggles or there is an injury, anything could happen.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:02 am

jellis wrote:I must add I hate the argument well we get above avg production at one position so we can go with lesser production at another, great teams don't do this they don't have weak spots. If you must have a weak spot that player better have other skills to excel in and I mean excel.


Not true. Plenty of teams have holes on there team....in fact, EVERY team does. Even the two world series teams from last year. Rays had a revolving door in RF and DH. Floyd was hurt and old, so didn't play much. You need to be getting some big numbers from those two spots.....if Hinske didn't come out of no where and hit 20 HRs for them, they'd have nothing really to show for those 2 spots. LF is week for them as far as power too. Crawford had a down year across the board. Doesn't have a high enough OBP to hit leadoff either.

Phillies durign the season got very little production from their catcher. And Ruiz isn't 'that' great s defensive catcher either. Only threw out 23.5% of basestealers. RF was a bit of a hole for them too. They had a platoon of Jenkins and Werth out there for much of hte year. Werth held up his end....but Jenkins made Dellucci look good. 3B also wasn't anything special for them (.302 OBP for Felix).

Unless you don't considered these 'great' teams....but they were the best in baseball last year....

Brantley provides great speed and plate discipline. Crowe provides some speed as well. Both provide something other than power so aren't complete wastes in LF.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:48 pm

Hermie13 wrote:
jellis wrote:I must add I hate the argument well we get above avg production at one position so we can go with lesser production at another, great teams don't do this they don't have weak spots. If you must have a weak spot that player better have other skills to excel in and I mean excel.


Not true. Plenty of teams have holes on there team....in fact, EVERY team does. Even the two world series teams from last year. Rays had a revolving door in RF and DH. Floyd was hurt and old, so didn't play much. You need to be getting some big numbers from those two spots.....if Hinske didn't come out of no where and hit 20 HRs for them, they'd have nothing really to show for those 2 spots. LF is week for them as far as power too. Crawford had a down year across the board. Doesn't have a high enough OBP to hit leadoff either.

Phillies durign the season got very little production from their catcher. And Ruiz isn't 'that' great s defensive catcher either. Only threw out 23.5% of basestealers. RF was a bit of a hole for them too. They had a platoon of Jenkins and Werth out there for much of hte year. Werth held up his end....but Jenkins made Dellucci look good. 3B also wasn't anything special for them (.302 OBP for Felix).

Unless you don't considered these 'great' teams....but they were the best in baseball last year....

Brantley provides great speed and plate discipline. Crowe provides some speed as well. Both provide something other than power so aren't complete wastes in LF.


my point is and still is why is it acceptable to be ok with lesser production just cause you have a position with with over all greater production than typical. its a stupid comment to make well we get better than avg CF production so we can have a below avg LF.. yes teams have holes, but they still got pretty good production for the year or at the right time. Werth was a solid RF most of last year and hinske was a solid RF all of last year for the rays. I need to see consistency from crowe before I can ever give him more than a 4th OF grade and you can keep saying great plat discpline for bratly but his plat discipline looks like felix fremin he never strikes out but he doesnt walk much either
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:38 pm

Somewhat off the topic but the BA top 30 book is out and these are the picks if I have copied correctly.


1. Carlos Santana, c
2. Matt LaPorta, of
3. Nick Weglarz, of
4. Adam Miller, rhp
5. Beau Mills, 1b
6. Lonnie Chisenhall, ss
7. Kelvin de la Cruz, lhp
8. David Huff, lhp
9. Michael Brantley, of/1b
10. Luis Valbuena, 2b
#11-Carlos Rivero
#12-Wes Hodges
#13-Hector Rondon
#14- TJ House
#15-Trevor Crowe
#16-Abner Abreu
#17-Tony Sipp
#18-Jon Meloan
#19-Jeff Stevens
#20-Trey Haley- "Of the players that the Indians went over slot recommendations to sign in 2008, Haley offers the highest upside
#21-Scott Lewis
#22-Zach Putnam
#23-Tim Fedroff
#24-Cord Phelps
#25-Jordan Brown
#26-Delvi Cid
#27-Bryce Stowell
#28-Josh Tomlin
#29-John Gaub
#30-Jose Orzoria

This list was obviously made before the De La Rosa trade. I am a little surprised by 26 and 30 but most of the names are there even if you don't agree on the placement.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby jellis » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:36 pm

nice post 26,29,30 are the shocks to me
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby MadThinker88 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:33 pm

Gaub opened a number of eyes last year and I think he was primed for a quick rise through the Tribe system in 2009. In my own listing I had him listed 19th (listed prior to Thanksgiving).

By the way, I would like it if Tony could provide some insight into who the heck is #30.
I was able to recognize all the names listed except that one.
Last edited by MadThinker88 on Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:52 pm

MadThinker88 wrote:Gaub opened a number of eyes last year and I think he was primed for a quick rise through the Tribe system in 2009. In my own listing I had him listed 19th (down prior to Thanksgiving).

By the way, I would like it if Tony could provide some insight into who the heck is #30.
I was able to recognize all the names listed except that one.

I think that is a typo. He is probably a 16 YO Venezuelan SS except I think his last name is Ozoria. The tribe paid him a bonus of $575K and from all reports he is "toolsy". I don't know if he is on TL's radar but he sure wasn't on mine. I didn't even have Cid in my top 40, much less Ozoria. I think the comment on Haley is quite perceptive and I look forward to seeing the work done on his mechanics in Goodyear.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:05 am

BA loves Cid so wasn't too suprised to see him top 30 (at least for them). They ranked him as the best defensive OFer and fastest baserunner in our system I believe.

Speed and defense are two of the toughest things to learn IMO. So if he's as good at those two as BA believes (he did steal a lot of bases in limited time last year), then he could develop into something useful.


Did they list a position for Hodges?.....just curious how they feel about his defense.....
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby Hermie13 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:14 am

jellis wrote:my point is and still is why is it acceptable to be ok with lesser production just cause you have a position with with over all greater production than typical. its a stupid comment to make well we get better than avg CF production so we can have a below avg LF.. yes teams have holes, but they still got pretty good production for the year or at the right time. Werth was a solid RF most of last year and hinske was a solid RF all of last year for the rays. I need to see consistency from crowe before I can ever give him more than a 4th OF grade and you can keep saying great plat discpline for bratly but his plat discipline looks like felix fremin he never strikes out but he doesnt walk much either


Depends what you mean by 'production'. Brantley with his speed and plate discipline can get on base and get into scoring position, thus scoring runs......runs are what win games. Getting into position to score is producing runs. Not in the normal sense, but guys can't drive in runs without people on base and in scoring position.

We be getting below average power from LF....but if he's scoring 100 runs, then he's being VERY productive. You're really not losing anything then.

And people saying Brantley doesn't walk much need to wake up. He walks MORE than Grady did in the minors!!! He walks a TON for a leadoff guy.

This past year, Brantley walked 50 times....or around 10.5% of his plate appearances. Grady walked 98 times....or around 13% of his plate appearances......

Brantley is FINE on his walks at his age and level. Only 5 leadoff guys walked at higher rates than him in the MLs last year....that's it. That's a far cry from a Felix Fermin comparison....
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:41 am

indianinkslinger wrote:Somewhat off the topic but the BA top 30 book is out and these are the picks if I have copied correctly.


1. Carlos Santana, c
2. Matt LaPorta, of
3. Nick Weglarz, of
4. Adam Miller, rhp
5. Beau Mills, 1b
6. Lonnie Chisenhall, ss
7. Kelvin de la Cruz, lhp
8. David Huff, lhp
9. Michael Brantley, of/1b
10. Luis Valbuena, 2b
#11-Carlos Rivero
#12-Wes Hodges
#13-Hector Rondon
#14- TJ House
#15-Trevor Crowe
#16-Abner Abreu
#17-Tony Sipp
#18-Jon Meloan
#19-Jeff Stevens
#20-Trey Haley- "Of the players that the Indians went over slot recommendations to sign in 2008, Haley offers the highest upside
#21-Scott Lewis
#22-Zach Putnam
#23-Tim Fedroff
#24-Cord Phelps
#25-Jordan Brown
#26-Delvi Cid
#27-Bryce Stowell
#28-Josh Tomlin
#29-John Gaub
#30-Jose Orzoria

This list was obviously made before the De La Rosa trade. I am a little surprised by 26 and 30 but most of the names are there even if you don't agree on the placement.


A couple of thoughts. Guys who make BA league top 20 lists make BA top 30 prospect lists for teams. While that may appear obvious it is also a given.

Ozoria is interesting. However, in a farm system this deep listing a guy who hasn't even played yet is a little bit of an issue for me. Given that this list does not even contain Josh Rodriguez, Chris Gimenez or even Frank Hermann, it points out how top 30 lists are in the eye of the beholder. I think any of us could do a better job of making a top 30 than this. It reeks of a combination of what-have-you-done-for-me-lately (Brown), former value overemphasized (Sipp), using league top 20 lists and a few wildcards like Ozoria. Hey, I wouldn't even mind if they took a flyer on Cid at 30 but him AND Ozoria in the same top 30 list in this organization? Man, that is not a good list at all.

As far as Haley goes, I stand by my statement. Do all of you realize that the Indians told Haley not to even pitch last summer? They didn't get a look at him playing over the summer, they just waited their time and then signed him at the last minute....a guy who did not have a second round profile at draft time...to an above slot bonus. Again, just bad ranking in my opinion. Like Ozoria, you stash Haley in the "others of note" category and hope that he turns out to be something.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby petes999 » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:54 pm

Again, just bad ranking in my opinion. Like Ozoria, you stash Haley in the "others of note" category and hope that he turns out to be something.


Goes to you point that BA individual lists are garbage ... only their top 100 type lists where they collaborate mean anything.

I just can't believe that they didn't move Stevens and Gaub to Chicago and add two more (yet they probably had only 2 weeks between the trade and printing).

And, by the time that you get to the 20+ prospect, these lists become very subjective. I can see them adding Orzoria as he was a $575,000 prospect which puts him in the league of Fedroff, Stowell and others who signed for $750,000+. Tony didn't include him because he has never seen him (part of his criteria). Yet Haley was 32 on Tony's list so Orzoria would have been lower given value of signing bonus.

The biggest things that stand out to me are: Valbuena being #10 - ahead of Hodges and others (yet we knew that already). And, for rating Stevens, Meloan and Sipp at 17-19 range and then Gaub at 29. Given the relievers in the top 10 lists on other teams, I would have thought the trio would have been higher and more distance from Gaub (or Gaub rated lower).

Yeah, Cid is rated high ... and in relationship they should have found some of our hidden gems like Perez. Yet, when you are talking about a guy who covers 5 or more teams creating the list , it gets very subjective where a player who excels at a tool already can leap ahead of others who have great potential yet haven't hit the higher levels to be noticed.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:33 pm

"Yet, when you are talking about a guy who covers 5 or more teams creating the list , it gets very subjective where a player who excels at a tool already can leap ahead of others who have great potential yet haven't hit the higher levels to be noticed."

Two words: Tony Lastoria

Not that Tony and I always agree as we found out last year when I collaborated with him on his list and comparing my list this year to his, but I trust his judgement more than some guy who doesn't eat and sleep Indians' prospect baseball.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:41 pm

Hermie13 wrote:BA loves Cid so wasn't too suprised to see him top 30 (at least for them). They ranked him as the best defensive OFer and fastest baserunner in our system I believe.

Speed and defense are two of the toughest things to learn IMO. So if he's as good at those two as BA believes (he did steal a lot of bases in limited time last year), then he could develop into something useful.


Did they list a position for Hodges?.....just curious how they feel about his defense.....

No positions listed on the list that I copied. I suspect there is little change in the writeup from BA's just missed list but won't know for sure until I get back home.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:19 pm

It's funny but BA lists the draft prospects, except for Berger, in about the same places that they were on my personal list and I still do not feel any better about BA as a ranking source. I still appreciate Sickels since he is a single source and not some unionized effort. I am most surprised by Rondon and not surprised by the relievers since there is so much depth with the high number of rated position prospects. Haley is ranked about right in my opinion. He is a diamond in the rough and until he is cut and polished, no one will see the value. He has so many flaws that it will take hard work to fix them all. House is also where I placed him because he is so polished with two pitches, you cannot ignore him. However, I believe Haley has the higher upside. I think this list is clear indication that BA thinks highly of the Indians' draft and international signings. There is a lot of pretty decent prospects that missed this list although I do not think any would be better than C+ at this time.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby dnosco » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:27 am

indianinkslinger wrote:It's funny but BA lists the draft prospects, except for Berger, in about the same places that they were on my personal list and I still do not feel any better about BA as a ranking source. I still appreciate Sickels since he is a single source and not some unionized effort. I am most surprised by Rondon and not surprised by the relievers since there is so much depth with the high number of rated position prospects. Haley is ranked about right in my opinion. He is a diamond in the rough and until he is cut and polished, no one will see the value. He has so many flaws that it will take hard work to fix them all. House is also where I placed him because he is so polished with two pitches, you cannot ignore him. However, I believe Haley has the higher upside. I think this list is clear indication that BA thinks highly of the Indians' draft and international signings. There is a lot of pretty decent prospects that missed this list although I do not think any would be better than C+ at this time.


...and that is why Haley was no way a 2nd round talent. Let's see where he and Melville are in 4 years. My guess is Haley will be buying a ticket to watch Melville pitch...but then I was the one who said Randy Keisler would have a better major league career than Zach Day. :s_biggrin
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby indianinkslinger » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:04 am

dnosco wrote:
indianinkslinger wrote:It's funny but BA lists the draft prospects, except for Berger, in about the same places that they were on my personal list and I still do not feel any better about BA as a ranking source. I still appreciate Sickels since he is a single source and not some unionized effort. I am most surprised by Rondon and not surprised by the relievers since there is so much depth with the high number of rated position prospects. Haley is ranked about right in my opinion. He is a diamond in the rough and until he is cut and polished, no one will see the value. He has so many flaws that it will take hard work to fix them all. House is also where I placed him because he is so polished with two pitches, you cannot ignore him. However, I believe Haley has the higher upside. I think this list is clear indication that BA thinks highly of the Indians' draft and international signings. There is a lot of pretty decent prospects that missed this list although I do not think any would be better than C+ at this time.


...and that is why Haley was no way a 2nd round talent. Let's see where he and Melville are in 4 years. My guess is Haley will be buying a ticket to watch Melville pitch...but then I was the one who said Randy Keisler would have a better major league career than Zach Day. :s_biggrin

In 4 years, you could be right because he has so many mechanical issues. In six years, you could be wrong. Or right again because he cannot locate the ball.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby TonyIBI » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:49 pm

Yeah, Ozoria being put at #30 is strange to me. Kid is 16 and will be in the DSL the next 2-3 years. He's a talent, for sure....but there were a ton of other guys who should have been considered.
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby TonyIBI » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:33 am

Interesting piece by Castrovince:

http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/a ... p&c_id=cle

Rare is the trade in which the player to be named turns out to be the best player acquired by a club, but that is altogether possible in Brantley's case. He was the last piece hauled in from last summer's CC Sabathia trade with the Brewers, but his potential in the power, on-base, defense and baserunning departments and his general maturity bode well for his big league future.

If you only read Brantley's stats, you might think he's a scrawny speedster. In fact, he's a 6-foot-2, 205-pound athlete, well-built with graceful movements. Yes, he might profile as a leadoff hitter at the moment -- and that's the position he's batted in throughout his Minor League career. But as he develops further, he has serious power potential.

That's something his dad discusses with him all the time.

"You put him at 215-220 pounds, with another 10-15 pounds of muscle on him, and he's going to drive some balls out of the ballpark," Mickey Brantley said. "That will come. I want him to stay with what he's doing right now. He's in a BP group with some big boppers, but I tell him, 'You can't worry about what they're doing.'"
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Re: How the Indians farm system ranks according to BA

Postby npc29 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:04 pm

Is it safe to assume that the Indians think he could be the Sizemore of the CC Sabathia deal? Because that's what it's starting to sound like.
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